The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey Team

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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby sil on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:34 pm

Bioshock wrote:
columbia wrote:
Jesse wrote:
Chirpin' Grinder wrote:The lineup choices are baffling and infuriating, but it is his inability to have any positive affect on the team when things start to go badly that is his worst failure. He simply has no ability to get the team back on track when the game starts to go off the rails.

Last night they were up 2-0 with his misfit toys lineup. But when SJ turned it around and tied it at 2-2, there was that deer in the headlights, blank expression on his face again. The broadcast actually caught it right before the Pens retook the lead to make it 3-2. Bylsma looked completely baffled and then, after the Pens scored, he immediately jutted out his jaw and looked confident and defiant again.

Add to that his failure to hold anyone that is not a rookie accountable for anything, and he is just a pathetic leader. Even his post game interviews clearly review he has very limited ability to think quickly and speak authoritatively. He is weak and the guys sense it. His time has passed with this group. RS needs to act.


Are you a psychologist?


The better question is: how does he have access to the team and the locker room and know that DB is such a terrible leader?


My thoughts exactly.


Clearly Chirpin' is Simon Despres in disguise.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:35 pm

The truth is probably that Crosby shouldn't be utterly shut down by someone like Bergeron and that some effort...any effort should be made to get him out against lesser players. I can't imagine that anyone, other than mrandall, would argue with that.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Bioshock on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:39 pm

IMO, No one in the league is Mario or Jagr in their primes and that goes for Sid as well. Couple that with obstruction slowly coming back, the age of video scouting and the brand of athlete being better now than at any point in the history of the NHL, you can literally shut down anyone in the game.

The key is depth. You can stop a superstar if you try. But you can't match up against 3 or 4 productive lines.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:41 pm

If thats true, then its hard to argue that the Pens wouldn't be better off getting rid of Crosby or Malkin.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby meow on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:42 pm

Bergeron gets the credit for a group of 6 players shutting Sid down.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Bioshock on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:43 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:If thats true, then its hard to argue that the Pens wouldn't be better off getting rid of Crosby or Malkin.

Yep. I'm starting to believe this if you're sacrificing a full lineup in the name of keeping a few key guys.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:45 pm

Just making sure we're on the same page...i've been coming around to this way of thinking over the past...lets say year.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Bioshock on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:48 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Just making sure we're on the same page...i've been coming around to this way of thinking over the past...lets say year.

Same. I hate the idea of it because i love these players and franchise, but i wanna win dammit. I don't think you ever trade Crosby because his cap hit is low and he's the face of the franchise. He's the money ticket. But everyone else should be fair game if this team continues to fail. Leave no stone unturned. Sometimes the right choice isn't always the obvious one.
Last edited by Bioshock on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby SolidSnake on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:48 pm

If Chicago can keep key players so can the Penguins
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:49 pm

SolidSnake wrote:If Chicago can keep key players so can the Penguins


Chicago isn't paying Toews and Kane over 8 mil per.

Now, once we reach the end of the 2015-2016 season, we'll see what happens there.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby lemieuxReturns on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:53 pm

I still can not get out of my head that super lazy backchecking effort from Sid when Geno is skating backwards trying to prevent the short-handed goal. All it would have taken was a half-arsed effort there by our Captain and there is no goal. That is the kind of stuff that people mention when discussing Toews as a great leader. It is not his shot or passing ability, but his lead by example attitude.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby meow on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:53 pm

Let's all simmer down a second. The cap is going to continue to rise. The big money contracts will take up less of the overall pie. Sure, the value of adding complementary pieces is going to go up as the cap goes up, but trading franchise player is a little too radical for me.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Bioshock on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:56 pm

meow wrote:Let's all simmer down a second. The cap is going to continue to rise. The big money contracts will take up less of the overall pie. Sure, the value of adding complementary pieces is going to go up as the cap goes up, but trading franchise player is a little too radical for me.


We're just hypothesising. Just thinking out loud.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby DesertPenguin on Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:58 pm

mikey287 wrote:You saw it in the Boston/Toronto series from last year...Zdeno Chara, who relishes these opportunities, left defensemen, so you know he's going against the right wing Phil Kessel. And Chara stands at the end of the bench, looking over, he knows his assignment, when 81 jumps, he calls off Boychuk or whoever and goes...and the players know it, and they're into it, and it makes sense because a probable HHOFer is jumping for a second pairing or worse d-man...that's ok...that's their style...they don't have Crosby and Malkin, they have a bunch of "next tier" guys that make it a deep team, but not top heavy...

For us, it's not quite the same...Martin/Orpik, sure, that's fine. And I think Martin is good for it, but Orpik at this point, I don't know that to be the case...Sutter is a very good player and so is Goc and the whole deal, but they aren't Patrice Bergeron...

"So you're saying because we don't have maybe the best defensive defenseman of the era and maybe the best shutdown center of the era, that we shouldn't match lines...? Yeah, real good point..."


Interesting idea, and I think I buy it, at least for Sid and Geno. However, it doesn't do much good to have a checking line if you don't use it to check anyone. Now that we can ice a Goc - Sutter - Stempniak line (why was Goc on the 4th line with Vitale sitting, btw?) we should use it when we can to check an opposing team's top line.

Also, the Crosby/Malkin rhythm argument doesn't necessarily extend to defense. If it were me, I'd have Scuderi and Martin paired up, and be sending them over the boards against the other team's top lines. Orpik - Martin is OK, but Brooks just isn't the player he once was. Letang should certainly not be getting this assignment, and if anything should be steered away from line matchups where his turnovers go to skilled players that can hurt us.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby since1970 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:01 pm

if the new Penguin model is to go through three quarters of the regular season with one line up and then wait for the trade deadline to acquire rentals for the playoffs because you can't afford those players for an entire season because you're top heavy in salary, then I'd rather them trade one of those guys to get a more balanced team for an entire season. Having two of the top three or five players in the world is fun to watch, but Cups aren't won on style points. I can do without Malkin as an example if it means a more prepared and well rounded playoff team
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:02 pm

columbia wrote:
Jesse wrote:
Chirpin' Grinder wrote:The lineup choices are baffling and infuriating, but it is his inability to have any positive affect on the team when things start to go badly that is his worst failure. He simply has no ability to get the team back on track when the game starts to go off the rails.

Last night they were up 2-0 with his misfit toys lineup. But when SJ turned it around and tied it at 2-2, there was that deer in the headlights, blank expression on his face again. The broadcast actually caught it right before the Pens retook the lead to make it 3-2. Bylsma looked completely baffled and then, after the Pens scored, he immediately jutted out his jaw and looked confident and defiant again.

Add to that his failure to hold anyone that is not a rookie accountable for anything, and he is just a pathetic leader. Even his post game interviews clearly review he has very limited ability to think quickly and speak authoritatively. He is weak and the guys sense it. His time has passed with this group. RS needs to act.


Are you a psychologist?


The better question is: how does he have access to the team and the locker room and know that DB is such a terrible leader?



I watch the games, observe his behavior and listen to the man speak and I watch team's response to tough times and challenges. Do you dispute that the team lacks structure and is mentally weak?

Where do you think that comes from???
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:03 pm

sil wrote:
Bioshock wrote:
columbia wrote:
Jesse wrote:
Chirpin' Grinder wrote:The lineup choices are baffling and infuriating, but it is his inability to have any positive affect on the team when things start to go badly that is his worst failure. He simply has no ability to get the team back on track when the game starts to go off the rails.

Last night they were up 2-0 with his misfit toys lineup. But when SJ turned it around and tied it at 2-2, there was that deer in the headlights, blank expression on his face again. The broadcast actually caught it right before the Pens retook the lead to make it 3-2. Bylsma looked completely baffled and then, after the Pens scored, he immediately jutted out his jaw and looked confident and defiant again.

Add to that his failure to hold anyone that is not a rookie accountable for anything, and he is just a pathetic leader. Even his post game interviews clearly review he has very limited ability to think quickly and speak authoritatively. He is weak and the guys sense it. His time has passed with this group. RS needs to act.


Are you a psychologist?


The better question is: how does he have access to the team and the locker room and know that DB is such a terrible leader?


My thoughts exactly.


Clearly Chirpin' is Simon Despres in disguise.


:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

8-)
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Digitalgypsy66 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:12 pm

Even dominating Cup teams lose a game or 20. It'll be OK.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:17 pm

Crosby's problem was Chara, not Bergeron.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Jesse on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:23 pm

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:
columbia wrote:
Jesse wrote:
Chirpin' Grinder wrote:The lineup choices are baffling and infuriating, but it is his inability to have any positive affect on the team when things start to go badly that is his worst failure. He simply has no ability to get the team back on track when the game starts to go off the rails.

Last night they were up 2-0 with his misfit toys lineup. But when SJ turned it around and tied it at 2-2, there was that deer in the headlights, blank expression on his face again. The broadcast actually caught it right before the Pens retook the lead to make it 3-2. Bylsma looked completely baffled and then, after the Pens scored, he immediately jutted out his jaw and looked confident and defiant again.

Add to that his failure to hold anyone that is not a rookie accountable for anything, and he is just a pathetic leader. Even his post game interviews clearly review he has very limited ability to think quickly and speak authoritatively. He is weak and the guys sense it. His time has passed with this group. RS needs to act.


Are you a psychologist?


The better question is: how does he have access to the team and the locker room and know that DB is such a terrible leader?



I watch the games, observe his behavior and listen to the man speak and I watch team's response to tough times and challenges. Do you dispute that the team lacks structure and is mentally weak?

Where do you think that comes from???


Yeah, I can. Because they don't lack structure whatsoever. That's a really poor myth. It's about as abysmal as the "Bylsma can't adjust!" arguments. They are refuted with on-ice facts. Changes to the approach and the system are evident in the on-ice manifestation of them.

Just off the top of my head:

1. Olli Maatta scores a late goal to give the Penguins a win over the Capitals in a really tough game.
2. Vancouver battles back and Crosby gives the Penguins a tied game at 4-4 and they win in a shootout.

Teams that undeniably "can't handle adversity and are mentally weak" don't win those two hockey games.

Also, the way a coach sits on the bench and the way he speaks in press conferences is probably the last thing I'll ever look at to determine the makeup of a hockey team.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby meow on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:26 pm

Jesse wrote:Also, the way a coach sits on the bench and the way he speaks in press conferences is probably the last thing I'll ever look at to determine the makeup of a hockey team.

This is the point that people continually make that drives me nuts. Do people really want a coach that jumps up and down, throws sticks on the ice, and drops the f-bomb every 2 seconds?
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Jesse on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:29 pm

meow wrote:
Jesse wrote:Also, the way a coach sits on the bench and the way he speaks in press conferences is probably the last thing I'll ever look at to determine the makeup of a hockey team.

This is the point that people continually make that drives me nuts. Do people really want a coach that jumps up and down, throws sticks on the ice, and drops the f-bomb every 2 seconds?


John Tortorella.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby 100565 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:30 pm

Bioshock wrote:IMO, No one in the league is Mario or Jagr in their primes and that goes for Sid as well. Couple that with obstruction slowly coming back, the age of video scouting and the brand of athlete being better now than at any point in the history of the NHL, you can literally shut down anyone in the game.

The key is depth. You can stop a superstar if you try. But you can't match up against 3 or 4 productive lines.


This coupled with the salary cap makes having superstars - who are only a bit better than stars - very questionable in the NHL.

Earlier I posted in NPR about best ssalary cap team...no one had Malkin on that team.

Lemieux was in a class of his own as a player, but I am beginning to see he cares more about sellouts than stanley cups as an owner. This team and coaching is built for the regular season.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Rylan on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:30 pm

meow wrote:
Jesse wrote:Also, the way a coach sits on the bench and the way he speaks in press conferences is probably the last thing I'll ever look at to determine the makeup of a hockey team.

This is the point that people continually make that drives me nuts. Do people really want a coach that jumps up and down, throws sticks on the ice, and drops the f-bomb every 2 seconds?


Yes.
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Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby wondermoose on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:32 pm

Sid looks tired. All the extra minutes and double shifting to make up for holes in the lineup, plus the Olympics, just makes him look tired. Maybe it helps that he gets injured a little every year, gets to take a little rest.
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