The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey Team

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Pitt87 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:34 pm

DesertPenguin wrote:
mikey287 wrote:You saw it in the Boston/Toronto series from last year...Zdeno Chara, who relishes these opportunities, left defensemen, so you know he's going against the right wing Phil Kessel. And Chara stands at the end of the bench, looking over, he knows his assignment, when 81 jumps, he calls off Boychuk or whoever and goes...and the players know it, and they're into it, and it makes sense because a probable HHOFer is jumping for a second pairing or worse d-man...that's ok...that's their style...they don't have Crosby and Malkin, they have a bunch of "next tier" guys that make it a deep team, but not top heavy...

For us, it's not quite the same...Martin/Orpik, sure, that's fine. And I think Martin is good for it, but Orpik at this point, I don't know that to be the case...Sutter is a very good player and so is Goc and the whole deal, but they aren't Patrice Bergeron...

"So you're saying because we don't have maybe the best defensive defenseman of the era and maybe the best shutdown center of the era, that we shouldn't match lines...? Yeah, real good point..."


Interesting idea, and I think I buy it, at least for Sid and Geno. However, it doesn't do much good to have a checking line if you don't use it to check anyone. Now that we can ice a Goc - Sutter - Stempniak line (why was Goc on the 4th line with Vitale sitting, btw?) we should use it when we can to check an opposing team's top line.

Also, the Crosby/Malkin rhythm argument doesn't necessarily extend to defense. If it were me, I'd have Scuderi and Martin paired up, and be sending them over the boards against the other team's top lines. Orpik - Martin is OK, but Brooks just isn't the player he once was. Letang should certainly not be getting this assignment, and if anything should be steered away from line matchups where his turnovers go to skilled players that can hurt us.


Your "btw" comment nailed the lack of discipline in this coach... he FORCES 27 out there every night, but sits effective 4th liners in his place. He also forces 44 out there for top minutes while guys blow past him and knock him off of a puck almost every shift.
Pitt87
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,255
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:33 am
Location: Admin wrote:Rooting for the Flyers is not allowed here. Seriously.

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby since1970 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:37 pm

I'd rather have a much better X & O guy then Blysma. I think the whole country club atmosphere can be eliminated by the players, it's more locker room leadership. The '79 Pirates are a good example. Chuck Tanner never had control of the clubhouse, it was a circus, but the players made sure guys were accountable to the guys in the locker room. They had larger personalities to be sure. To a great extent it was that way on every team I've ever played on. I'm not sure this team has that, and I'm going to take some heat here, but leading by example also needs a little leading by getting in a guys face. Does this team have that?? I think every other cup team we had did, but I'm not sure I see this team as having it. Who stands up in the room? Maybe I'm wrong, it's my observation.
since1970
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 711
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:06 pm

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Rylan on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:39 pm

ITT: Image
Rylan
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,018
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:07 am
Location: Dead and Without Love

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby meow on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:41 pm

Jesse wrote:
meow wrote:
Jesse wrote:Also, the way a coach sits on the bench and the way he speaks in press conferences is probably the last thing I'll ever look at to determine the makeup of a hockey team.

This is the point that people continually make that drives me nuts. Do people really want a coach that jumps up and down, throws sticks on the ice, and drops the f-bomb every 2 seconds?


John Tortorella.

Torts, Jim Harbaugh, Bruce Boudreau...that type of coaching gets old for players very quickly. Hell, look at Babcock. Most people put him head and shoulders above any other coach in the league and he basically stands there, utters cliche after cliche from his Hockey Cliches 101 Book and people think he's the best thing since sliced bread. Babcock wins 72% of his regular season games, 58% of his post season games, and has 1 Cup ring. Bylsma wins 68% of his regular season games, 55% of his post season games, and has 1 Cup ring.
meow
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,568
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:02 pm
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Great58 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:44 pm

While I understand the angst of watching the third period last night, I think dusting off the old "Fire DB" thread would have been more appropriate at this time if venting needed to be done. I'll give the team at least the opportunity to have one practice with all their trade acqusitions in place before condeming this current group, and preferrably the time to get PM back into the lineup to see how they really function going into this spring.
Last edited by Great58 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Great58
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,636
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:56 pm
Location: On the blue line

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby pcm on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:44 pm

I wonder what would have happened last night if Vitale and Engelland were dressed on the 4th line? Certainly the loss of Bortuzzo wouldn't have been as dramatic, but I think also that this team would not have gotten pushed around the way it did in the second when SJ started to impose their will.

We'll see how this team responds tonight against another "heavy" team.
pcm
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,367
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:39 am
Location: mountains

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:50 pm

Rylan wrote:
meow wrote:
Jesse wrote:Also, the way a coach sits on the bench and the way he speaks in press conferences is probably the last thing I'll ever look at to determine the makeup of a hockey team.

This is the point that people continually make that drives me nuts. Do people really want a coach that jumps up and down, throws sticks on the ice, and drops the f-bomb every 2 seconds?


Yes.


Clearly there is a balance... Bylsma is way too far off to to the soff side. And its not just about demeanor. Accountability can easily be enforced by a strong, silent type.

The way he speaks, actually stammers and hesitates, is important. Strong leaders speak with confidence. Bylsma rarely does.

The adjustment criticism is overblown, but it is still correct. It is not always the problem, but it often is. Exactly what do you think the genesis of "get to our game" is?

What adjustments did he make last night when the Sharks turned it on and started bringin' it? With a two goal lead on the road, the Pens should have been sucking the life out of the game. Instead, they still had three forwards already over the red line when the d-men were breaking out. Its insane the way they still try to force the silly stretch passes. Count the number of times the defensemen attempt two line passes from within their own zone. They have a skill team, they should be coming up the ice with short, crisp passes and with more cohesion.

Did he reduce Sid's minutes or make any adjustment regarding 87 last night, when he clearly was struggling?
Chirpin' Grinder
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,296
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:28 am
Location: South Beach

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:56 pm

since1970 wrote:I'd rather have a much better X & O guy then Blysma. I think the whole country club atmosphere can be eliminated by the players, it's more locker room leadership. The '79 Pirates are a good example. Chuck Tanner never had control of the clubhouse, it was a circus, but the players made sure guys were accountable to the guys in the locker room. They had larger personalities to be sure. To a great extent it was that way on every team I've ever played on. I'm not sure this team has that, and I'm going to take some heat here, but leading by example also needs a little leading by getting in a guys face. Does this team have that?? I think every other cup team we had did, but I'm not sure I see this team as having it. Who stands up in the room? Maybe I'm wrong, it's my observation.


They don't really have it in the room. I mean, who is going to call out Sid for that lazy back check or Orpik and Scuderi for being passionless and soft for the past 20 games?

That presence is not in the room and I think its a big reason Shero wanted Kesler, as has been discussed.

I am not sure why Granato doesn't go berserk every once in awhile, he used to be good at that... maybe he has mellowed out or the chain of command just doesn't allow for it. They desperately need an MT type that isn't afraid to break eggs and bruise egos (other than those of rookies).
Chirpin' Grinder
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,296
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:28 am
Location: South Beach

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby shmenguin on Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:56 pm

reduce sid's minutes...eesh. really?

one game is one game. you sound like you expect 82 games of complete innovation, focus and extreme dedication. that's not sustainable for any team of any era with any coach.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,846
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby meow on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:03 pm

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:The way he speaks, actually stammers and hesitates, is important. Strong leaders speak with confidence. Bylsma rarely does.

To the press.

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:The adjustment criticism is overblown, but it is still correct. It is not always the problem, but it often is. Exactly what do you think the genesis of "get to our game" is?

The guys in the room know what it means. I love this phrase and how often the team uses it because it is 100% true. When the difference between winning and losing every night is a fairly insignificant margin, it often comes down to what team can force the other team out of their game. The team that can impose it's style of play all ready has a leg up on grabbing two points. Would you rather them say, "Well, we will see what the other team is doing and try to react...on the fly...while playing the fastest game on Earth...at the highest level."


Chirpin' Grinder wrote:What adjustments did he make last night when the Sharks turned it on and started bringin' it? With a two goal lead on the road, the Pens should have been sucking the life out of the game. Instead, they still had three forwards already over the red line when the d-men were breaking out. Its insane the way they still try to force the silly stretch passes. Count the number of times the defensemen attempt two line passes from within their own zone. They have a skill team, they should be coming up the ice with short, crisp passes and with more cohesion.

What do you want him to do? He had them shrink the breakout. I don't know where you get that they had three guys beyond the red line because they did not. He was down to 5 defensemen. The best player in the world was a turnover machine and was a dash 5. There were two new guys in the line-up playing fairly significant ice-time.

And I haven't seen a single person give San Jose any credit. They worked their bags off and they were rewarded for it. I'm not picking on you, put there are two NHL teams on the ice. The season is 82 games long. Stinkers happen.
meow
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,568
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:02 pm
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:04 pm

Yea, you observe that the guy isn't goin on that particular night and you scale him back a bit. Its not a radical thought. It could actually help a guy be more productive during the time he is out there...
Chirpin' Grinder
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,296
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:28 am
Location: South Beach

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:04 pm

pcm wrote:I wonder what would have happened last night if Vitale and Engelland were dressed on the 4th line? Certainly the loss of Bortuzzo wouldn't have been as dramatic, but I think also that this team would not have gotten pushed around the way it did in the second when SJ started to impose their will.

We'll see how this team responds tonight against another "heavy" team.


Likewise, I don't see this game getting out of hand if Bortuzzo doesn't get hurt in the 1st period. It seemed like the intensity picked up after he left the game.

As an aside, I don't think the game would have gotten that out of control if the refs had made a call on the Kunitz elbow. Letting that go basically opened the floodgates of "I can get away with pretty much anything" that led to the physicality getting where it got.

Rylan wrote:ITT: Image


:lol:
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 17,453
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby The Snapshot on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:05 pm

In all of these series, our stars have been dogged by a matchup that has involved a checking center, a shutdown D pair AND a goalie. Despite the first 2 elements, our stars have had glorious chances or set up teammates for them. Rask and Halak were the difference in those series.

Flyers series was a mess, and they werent around for Tampa.

Bottom line, as much as Fleury sucked, both of those series saw the difference being goalies stoning our stars. That is on Sid and Geno, not Bylsma matching lines. We had enough chances to win.
The Snapshot
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 8,282
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:28 am
Location: Somewhere between here and there

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby shmenguin on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:10 pm

The Snapshot wrote:In all of these series, our stars have been dogged by a matchup that has involved a checking center, a shutdown D pair AND a goalie. Despite the first 2 elements, our stars have had glorious chances or set up teammates for them. Rask and Halak were the difference in those series.

Flyers series was a mess, and they werent around for Tampa.

Bottom line, as much as Fleury sucked, both of those series saw the difference being goalies stoning our stars. That is on Sid and Geno, not Bylsma matching lines. We had enough chances to win.


we didn't test rask at all.

he's a good goalie, and much better than fleury (if that's what you're ultimately going for here), but we had jack squat for scoring chances for the entire series. it was a joke.
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,846
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:13 pm

meow wrote:
Chirpin' Grinder wrote:The way he speaks, actually stammers and hesitates, is important. Strong leaders speak with confidence. Bylsma rarely does.

To the press.

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:The adjustment criticism is overblown, but it is still correct. It is not always the problem, but it often is. Exactly what do you think the genesis of "get to our game" is?

The guys in the room know what it means. I love this phrase and how often the team uses it because it is 100% true. When the difference between winning and losing every night is a fairly insignificant margin, it often comes down to what team can force the other team out of their game. The team that can impose it's style of play all ready has a leg up on grabbing two points. Would you rather them say, "Well, we will see what the other team is doing and try to react...on the fly...while playing the fastest game on Earth...at the highest level."

The phrase is also about "imposing our will" and Bylsma's belief that if they just play the way he wants them to, they will be successful, regardless of opposition tactics.


Chirpin' Grinder wrote:What adjustments did he make last night when the Sharks turned it on and started bringin' it? With a two goal lead on the road, the Pens should have been sucking the life out of the game. Instead, they still had three forwards already over the red line when the d-men were breaking out. Its insane the way they still try to force the silly stretch passes. Count the number of times the defensemen attempt two line passes from within their own zone. They have a skill team, they should be coming up the ice with short, crisp passes and with more cohesion.

What do you want him to do? He had them shrink the breakout. I don't know where you get that they had three guys beyond the red line because they did not. He was down to 5 defensemen. The best player in the world was a turnover machine and was a dash 5. There were two new guys in the line-up playing fairly significant ice-time.

And I haven't seen a single person give San Jose any credit. They worked their bags off and they were rewarded for it. I'm not picking on you, put there are two NHL teams on the ice. The season is 82 games long. Stinkers happen.


You are right about San Jose, they do deserve a lot of credit. To your other point, i didn't expect to him to radically change it last night, it was more of a general criticism. The forwards are too often too far up ice. I saw a few examples of it in the third period where all three forwards had crossed the red line and the d was still in the d zone with the puck. Its hardly unusual for this team. I also don't think they have the forwards to go and get it when they play chip and chase. This roster should trap and then play puck possession, coming out of the zone and up the ice as a cohesive pack. Stretch pass > chip and chase doesn't work for this personnel.
Chirpin' Grinder
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,296
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:28 am
Location: South Beach

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby meow on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:16 pm

So you want the top-to-bottom most talented team in the league to play a chip and chase, 1995 Devils style game?
meow
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,568
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:02 pm
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby DelPen on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:41 pm

meow wrote:So you want the top-to-bottom most talented team in the league to play a chip and chase, 1995 Devils style game?


I'd take the 2007-2009 Therrien style game without Therrien as the coach. Not sure if that's possible though.
DelPen
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 34,019
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:27 am
Location: Lake Wylie, SC

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby luv66 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:43 pm

columbia wrote:
Beveridge wrote:I can't wait till we have a new coach and people realize it isn't all on coaching. Should be fun times for reading.


I have a fear of this that started to creep in the last playoffs but you still have to try a coaching change first before changing the core IMO. I REALLY wished they would have changed coaches this last off-season.

Geno is my favorite player and I will be devastated if he goes but there is no way Sid gets traded unless he asks to be. Last year I would have been more apt to think that trading Fleury and Letang was the way to go. Today I'm not sure that would solve all of our problems.
This team needs a major kick in the pants. :(
luv66
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,068
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:17 pm

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby DropEmJayBird on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:43 pm

meow wrote:So you want the top-to-bottom most talented team in the league to play a chip and chase, 1995 Devils style game?


No Mr Bond, I expect them to win tight defensive playoff series.
DropEmJayBird
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,693
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:38 pm

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby The U on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:47 pm

The Snapshot wrote:In all of these series, our stars have been dogged by a matchup that has involved a checking center, a shutdown D pair AND a goalie.


That is why I was really hoping for a 3rd line upgrade. (hopefully we got one)

A good playoff team will eliminate line 1 from the series at even strength for the reasons you mentioned above.

The series will then come down to our 2nd and 3rd lines being counted to score goals. Can our 3rd line score goals?

I was really excited about having Kesler on a 3rd line to bring more punch but we'll have to make do with Goc-Sutter-Stempniak.
The U
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,521
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:34 pm

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Pitts on Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:51 pm

The Pens should just bow out gracefully right now. Finish at the top, right? Let some other, more worthy team take their spot. This way, they can say they finished #1.
Pitts
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 18,713
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:22 am
Location: Working ....

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby DelPen on Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:00 pm

Pitts wrote:The Pens should just bow out gracefully right now. Finish at the top, right? Let some other, more worthy team take their spot. This way, they can say they finished #1.


Ted Leonsis knows where to get a banner for that 8-)
DelPen
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 34,019
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:27 am
Location: Lake Wylie, SC

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby tfrizz on Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:02 pm

DelPen wrote:
meow wrote:So you want the top-to-bottom most talented team in the league to play a chip and chase, 1995 Devils style game?


I'd take the 2007-2009 Therrien style game without Therrien as the coach. Not sure if that's possible though.


It isn't with Bylsma in charge.
tfrizz
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 8,325
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:49 am
Location: Freddy Beach

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:03 pm

It isn't really possible with any coach, as each coach has a different system and way of doing things.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 17,453
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: The Anatomy of an Undisciplined, Poorly Coached Hockey T

Postby Ad@m on Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:04 pm

Ad@m
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 674
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:31 am

PreviousNext

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests


e-mail