'14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning After

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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Thu May 08, 2014 3:37 pm

The concept of a 'whipping boy' is when a coach applies a different standard to his players, playing the ones that make more money or are just simply old and who stink while making excuses as to why the less costly/younger player isn't ready or is careless.

There would be no whipping boy if the standards were the same.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby MRandall25 on Thu May 08, 2014 3:41 pm

Oh yes, there definitely would be. See Goligoski, Alex or Martin, Paul.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby darkstar57 on Thu May 08, 2014 3:44 pm

DelPen wrote:Even when Scuderi doesn't suck he's still at best #7 on the depth chart, sometimes as low as #9 depending on how well Engellened and Despres play too.

Martin-Letang
Orpik-Niskanen
Maatta-Bortuzzo

That's the best pairings we can hope to see.


Not sure how you break up Niskanen and Maata, as a rookie i play the guy who maata is most comfortbale with and that is nisky
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Stick_licker on Thu May 08, 2014 3:45 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
I didn't blur them out, they were like that when I found the image on Twitter. In any regard, they are the G, A, P, TOI, S, and penalty differential, which aren't really relative to the reason I posted it. The point is to show the Corsi-numbers. Scuderi's is pretty high, for a guy who sucks.


And Scuderi had the 18th worst (out of 194) Corsi for a defenseman in the regular season. So no, Scuderi's is pretty low and he sucks. Taking one game where we dominated shots and showing he had a decent Corsi percentage is cherry picking your statistics.

ulf wrote:I think 16 to 17 minutes is perfectly acceptable and probably predictable for a 3rd pairing guy


This would be true if we weren't paying him $3+ Million per year. If we lose Niskanen because of Scuderi's contract we're essentially trading a top 3 guy for a #6 guy.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby MRandall25 on Thu May 08, 2014 3:47 pm

Stick_licker wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
I didn't blur them out, they were like that when I found the image on Twitter. In any regard, they are the G, A, P, TOI, S, and penalty differential, which aren't really relative to the reason I posted it. The point is to show the Corsi-numbers. Scuderi's is pretty high, for a guy who sucks.


And Scuderi had the 18th worst (out of 194) Corsi for a defenseman in the regular season. So no, Scuderi's is pretty low and he sucks. Taking one game where we dominated shots and showing he had a decent Corsi percentage is cherry picking your statistics.



Half the discussion was related to last night's game, so I used last night's stats. That's not exactly cherry-picking.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Stick_licker on Thu May 08, 2014 3:52 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:Why in the world are people still acting like Scuds is playing well? Was it not enough that he could never generate a shot on goal when passes went back to him on the point?


You mean like almost every other defenseman on the team (Matt Niskanen especially)? This complaint doesn't really make sense because defensemen miss the net all the time. Even more, do you really expect a defensive d-man to produce offense? If so, I got some bad news for you...

That he was on the ice for both goals against?


So you're going to ignore the fact Matt Niskanen picked a really inopportune time to leave the middle of the ice wide open for Carl Hagelin, who scored on a perfectly placed shot on a 2 on 1? Must be Scuderi's fault!

That he cannot make a break-out pass?


See #1.

That he doesn't ride opponents off the puck on the board and gain possession of the puck?


That's never really been a part of his game. Not sure why you're expecting that to suddenly change. His stick is one of the best, though (or used to be, if we're just looking at this team).

That he can't move people from the crease?


And who has?

I understand the cool thing is to find something to complain about when everything's going right, but Scuderi hasn't been as bad as people have been saying he is. It seems like people are sitting there waiting for him to make a mistake so they can say "See?!? I told you Scuderi sucks!". Classic case of confirmation bias.

He hasn't been good compared to Paul Martin or Kris Letang, but Rob Scuderi has never been a Paul Martin or Kris Letang-type player. I'd wager he looks pretty much the same as he did his last stint here. People have short memories, I guess.

He hasn't been as good as some hoped he would be, but I don't think he's as bad as people are making him look either. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.


So you're saying Scuderi:

  • Doesn't have to get shots on net
  • Doesn't have to cover for his partners mistakes
  • Doesn't need to make breakout passes
  • Doesn't need to separate opponents from the puck
  • Doesn't need to clear the crease

What does he have to do exactly? What does he excel at that justifies playing him over Bortuzzo, Engelland or Despres?

I see your point about people focusing on Scuderi's mistakes because he's the new "whipping boy", but for me its the exact opposite. I'll see the Penguins dominate like they did in the 1st, then I'll some random shift where we get stuck in our zone for 2 straight minutes. I'll then focus on who exactly is out there, and 9 times out of 10 it's Scuderi/Adams.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby brwi on Thu May 08, 2014 4:08 pm

I think some are totally unhappy that the Pens are winning and every win has Adams and Scuds on the ice in the last minute to seal the deal and it's working. Can't have everyone's favorite "beat them like a rented mule" targets on the ice during victories....NO! They suck! BOOO!

Hate to sound all polyanna, but what is wrong with winning and being happy about it and the performance by the team? Pens sure look a lot better to me now than most of this season and are playing with some intensity on all lines and the D is looking much better post-CBJ. HCDB is making the moves and MAF is shaking-off bad goals like they never happened. Can improvement be made, sure. For now, enjoy the damn stuff because I sure am.

I can be a pretty harsh critic of the team and even the organization, but if you haven't thoroughly enjoyed these last 3 games, I don't know why you bother to watch.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby MRandall25 on Thu May 08, 2014 4:16 pm

Doesn't have to get shots on net
Doesn't have to cover for his partners mistakes
Doesn't need to make breakout passes
Doesn't need to separate opponents from the puck
Doesn't need to clear the crease


Let's go one by one.

The shots on net thing is a terrible argument. Matt Niskanen, who we can all pretty much agree has played well, has attempted 49 shots in this playoffs. 14 of those have hit the goalie and registered as shots on goal. The remaining shots were either blocked (21) or missed altogether (14). Basically, Matt Niskanen has missed as many shots on net that have actually hit the net (not counting blocked shots). My point is that saying "Oh, ______ can't get shots on net" is a terrible criticism. I'm not absolving Scuderi of not being able to hit the net, but complaining that he can't isn't really saying much since one of our better shooters only hits the net 50% of the time, when he isn't getting the shot blocked. Also, Rob Scuderi isn't and never has been a shooter. If you're expecting Rob Scuderi to be the one to shoot, I'm sorry that I have no answer for that, but you should probably re-evaluate your expectations for Rob Scuderi in the offensive zone.

He should be able to cover for mistakes (and he has at times). Not sure where you're getting that I said he doesn't. Regardless, I find it really hard to blame Rob Scuderi for getting stuck in a 2 on 1 because Matt Niskanen decided to leave the middle of the ice open for Carl Hagelin. Not to mention Hagelin's shot placement was near-perfect. Not much you can do about that. If anything, Scuderi helped cut the angle down to the point where Hagelin needed a perfect shot to score (and he did). There really wasn't much Scuderi could do there because he had to respect the other guy across the ice. So again, I find it hard to blame him there, but that won't stop people from trying to blame him.

This falls back to the relying on him for shots thing, but Scuderi is not a breakout passer. He is a defensive defenseman. If you're relying on him to be the one to start a breakout, again, you may need to re-evaluate your expectations. He was like this in 2009 as well, so this should be nothing new to people here. This is also why he's been paired with people who can at least move the puck a little (Letang).

He separates opponents from the puck with his stick, which I touched out. Players don't need to make a hit every chance they get. I keep coming back to this, but if you're expecting Rob Scuderi to be a Kronwall or Orpik and start hitting people, you may need to re-evaluate your expectations. He's never been much of a body guy. His strengths, even going back to 09, have been his stick and positioning by forcing guys to the outside. Hitting just has not been a big part of his game. You'll see it from time to time, but you shouldn't expect it all the time.

Never said he didn't need to clear the crease, but find me an instance where a Penguins defenseman has done this recently. Singling out Scuderi for that is laughable, because no one else does it on a consistent basis (not even Bortuzzo). Like with the hitting, Scuderi makes up for a lack of physicality with a smart stick that takes away the passing lanes.


I still don't really see a huge issue with Scuderi. Like I've said, yes he hasn't been great, but he hasn't been so bad that Engelland is a step up from him.


But I guess we all need something to complain about when everything is going well, huh?
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby penny lane on Thu May 08, 2014 4:24 pm

* We * can't handle success :( :P 8-)
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Stick_licker on Thu May 08, 2014 4:26 pm

MRandall25 wrote:But I guess we all need something to complain about when everything is going well, huh?


Indeed. If they'd make the lineup changes I'd want then I'd have to start complaining about the proper shade of gold for the Penguins next "gold-out". :D

Life is good when the Penguins are winning. Just hope they can keep it up...
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby count2infinity on Thu May 08, 2014 4:30 pm

http://www.pensburgh.com/2014/5/8/56870 ... nd-present

The worst display of this was in game 3 of the New York Rangers series. Looking at all situations in that game (PP, PK, EV), New York had a CF% of 85.7% when Scuderi was on the ice. When Scuderi was off the ice, New York only had a CF% of 54.1%. Tough to imagine that's even possible.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby MRandall25 on Thu May 08, 2014 4:32 pm

Stick_licker wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:But I guess we all need something to complain about when everything is going well, huh?


Indeed. If they'd make the lineup changes I'd want then I'd have to start complaining about the proper shade of gold for the Penguins next "gold-out". :D


:lol:

It's funny, I was literally just sitting here wondering what would happen if that was the case.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby newarenanow on Thu May 08, 2014 4:33 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Oh yes, there definitely would be. See Goligoski, Alex or Martin, Paul.


Whitney, Ryan
Gonchar, Sergie (first year)
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby AlexPKeaton on Thu May 08, 2014 4:54 pm

I love seeing St Louis suck so much. What a whiny little baby he is. I'd take 10 ovechkins not playing D on my team before I took that little girl.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby slappybrown on Thu May 08, 2014 5:00 pm

Scuderi's past it. Everyone knows it. He seems to be getting worse at handling the puck. They get overrun at 5 on 5 when he's on the ice (and God forbid he's out there at the same time with the Adams line), and his partners all do better without him. I don't understand what the point of having a debate over the semantics of his level of ineffectiveness; its of no value. He is not one of the top 6 defensemen on this team right now.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Pavel Bure on Thu May 08, 2014 5:05 pm

Scuderi is a worse version of Jay McKee.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Stick_licker on Thu May 08, 2014 5:22 pm

count2infinity wrote:http://www.pensburgh.com/2014/5/8/5687082/rob-scuderi-past-and-present

The worst display of this was in game 3 of the New York Rangers series. Looking at all situations in that game (PP, PK, EV), New York had a CF% of 85.7% when Scuderi was on the ice. When Scuderi was off the ice, New York only had a CF% of 54.1%. Tough to imagine that's even possible.


Ouch. Just...ouch. That whole article is scathing. Bylsma has actually been decent about benching forwards this playoffs: Pyatt, Glass, Megna. I don't understand why he won't do the same for our defense.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Rocco on Thu May 08, 2014 5:34 pm

newarenanow wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Oh yes, there definitely would be. See Goligoski, Alex or Martin, Paul.


Whitney, Ryan
Gonchar, Sergie (first year)


How dare fans recognize a player who is performing poorly.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby MRandall25 on Thu May 08, 2014 5:39 pm

Rocco wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Oh yes, there definitely would be. See Goligoski, Alex or Martin, Paul.


Whitney, Ryan
Gonchar, Sergie (first year)


How dare fans recognize a player who is performing poorly.


I think you missed the point. We were responding to

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:There would be no whipping boy if the standards were the same.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Rocco on Thu May 08, 2014 6:24 pm

"Whipping boy" implies someone who takes unwarranted criticism.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby lemieuxReturns on Thu May 08, 2014 6:37 pm

count2infinity wrote:http://www.pensburgh.com/2014/5/8/5687082/rob-scuderi-past-and-present

The worst display of this was in game 3 of the New York Rangers series. Looking at all situations in that game (PP, PK, EV), New York had a CF% of 85.7% when Scuderi was on the ice. When Scuderi was off the ice, New York only had a CF% of 54.1%. Tough to imagine that's even possible.


Well what that article does is provide hard stats to what my own eyes have been telling me. Basically Scuderi sucks. And that is not just a complaint to complain. He is just that bad.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Desiato on Thu May 08, 2014 7:34 pm

I think that when Scuderi plays well, it's really hard to notice. That's because he has no flash at all: not fast, doesn't handle the puck smoothly, is not a big hitter. He has always been a difficult player to appreciate, despite always adding value. When he is noticed, it's usually due to lost battle or error. Even at his best -- which is probably not now.

He does a lot of little things well. Most of all, he's intelligent and super cool under pressure. As we go deeper into the playoffs, some guys will become less effective as the pressure builds up. They will be more restrained by obstruction. They will get emotional and frustrated. Not Rob Scuderi.

That's all I'm going to say.

Edit: He's sort of the anti-Letang. Maybe that's why he was brought back. The best part about what makes Scuderi valuable is that others can emulate those traits.
Last edited by Desiato on Thu May 08, 2014 7:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby DocEmrick on Thu May 08, 2014 7:44 pm

:scared:
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby shmenguin on Thu May 08, 2014 8:31 pm

Desiato wrote:I think that when Scuderi plays well, it's really hard to notice. That's because he has no flash at all: not fast, doesn't handle the puck smoothly, is not a big hitter. He has always been a difficult player to appreciate, despite always adding value. When he is noticed, it's usually due to lost battle or error. Even at his best -- which is probably not now.

He does a lot of little things well. Most of all, he's intelligent and super cool under pressure. As we go deeper into the playoffs, some guys will become less effective as the pressure builds up. They will be more restrained by obstruction. They will get emotional and frustrated. Not Rob Scuderi.

That's all I'm going to say.

Edit: He's sort of the anti-Letang. Maybe that's why he was brought back. The best part about what makes Scuderi valuable is that others can emulate those traits.


He's not super cool under pressure. The theme that everyone is catching onto this season is him hurrying clears around the boards that get intercepted easily.
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Re: '14 Playoffs Game 4 vs NYR - Thoughts from the Morning A

Postby Desiato on Thu May 08, 2014 9:51 pm

The kind of pressure I'm talking about hasn't happened yet.
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