The Case Against Rejean Shero

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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Desiato on Wed May 14, 2014 8:05 pm

The more I think about it, the more I would be okay with the departure of Shero.

The bottom line for me is the defense corps. I can't imagine a scenario in which it could have won a cup. It badly needed a new Orpik last year. I love Orpik, but with his mileage, you can't expect him to continue to perform in that role without injury problems.

His roster suggests he's out of touch with the way the game is now played. Not every team needs to be the Bruins--as the Hawks showed--but every team needs size and hard checkers. Furthermore, he supported the deployment of a system that seems better suited for the NHL in 2006 than 2014.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby meecrofilm on Wed May 14, 2014 8:12 pm

Scotty Bowman's words: "Crosby has been there (Pittsburgh) what, 8 years? Aside from Malkin (who is really a center), has he ever had a star to play with? Kunitz is a nice player, and I'm not trying to denigrate him....it looks like to me, their supporting cast is not good enough."

Hey, at least someone outside the organization can recognize this. Not sure who he is or what his credentials are, but it's a start......
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed May 14, 2014 8:33 pm

His strategy never had a chance. Maybe in 4 more years it will pay dividends but it takes far too long for these PMD to develop and too high of a bust rate. We never had enough far enough along in their careers to either trade or plug in therefore had to sign too many vets. So, he wasted solid years of two superstars.

I really think the Whitney and Gogo trades warped his mind a bit. It's not like we got these insane returns. These were all guys we should be capable of drafting at some point. But either way common sense says those guys were in the system/league 5 and 7 years. His overall premise was flawed from the getgo. But you also need trade partners. Drafting to trade just flat out makes no sense. In any sport.

It seems every summer we needed to trade to fill out a roster. I get adding a piece but there is structural and philosophical issues if you need too much every deadline.
Last edited by BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed May 14, 2014 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby slappybrown on Wed May 14, 2014 8:34 pm

knives of ice wrote:so last year Shero was the GM of the year. people raved about his amazing trades.

now he should be fired and there are better replacements out there? seriously?

his worse mistake is believing in Bylsma. and really, if you have ever worked that closely with someone i can understand how that happens. many many many many many GMs have made the same mistake.

There's no question that he's an excellent deal maker. No one I've seen disputes that.

His draft record is awful. He's been unable to build a supporting cast that's good enough IMO. He's wasted money on players like Scuderi, Adams, and Glass. They've had issued developing young talent, and the forward pipeline is very thin. He and Byslma consistently iced a team that was not their best players.

Does his exceptional trade record (Kunitz, hossa/dupuis, Neal, and the deadline deals last year and this year, all of whom I liked outside of Murray), outweigh the other problems above? I'm leaning towards no.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby knives of ice on Wed May 14, 2014 8:35 pm

i also think that when Shero came in he drafted all the Dmen for a post clutch and grab lockout hockey world. that is what things were supossed to be. that is what was promised.

now that the NHL refs the postseason where you can basically abuse star players and its little different than the 66 era the drafting strategy obviously needs to be retoooled and never really got a chance to work.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed May 14, 2014 8:37 pm

slappybrown wrote:
knives of ice wrote:so last year Shero was the GM of the year. people raved about his amazing trades.

now he should be fired and there are better replacements out there? seriously?

his worse mistake is believing in Bylsma. and really, if you have ever worked that closely with someone i can understand how that happens. many many many many many GMs have made the same mistake.

There's no question that he's an excellent deal maker. No one I've seen disputes that.

His draft record is awful. He's been unable to build a supporting cast that's good enough IMO. He's wasted money on players like Scuderi, Adams, and Glass. They've had issued developing young talent, and the forward pipeline is very thin. He and Byslma consistently iced a team that was not their best players.

Does his exceptional trade record (Kunitz, hossa/dupuis, Neal, and the deadline deals last year and this year, all of whom I liked outside of Murray), outweigh the other problems above? I'm leaning towards no.


Yeah, I guess a lot of his trades were good. But we also due to a silly drafting plan and poor drafting he had a lot of mediocre trades. They just aren't recognized as much because they involved draft picks.

2 seconds, 2 thirds and a 5th netted us Murray, Goc, Stempanik.

That's not all that great when you look at other deals.

All I am saying is he has given up a ton of assets too. Just not as easily defined as a player.
Last edited by BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed May 14, 2014 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed May 14, 2014 8:40 pm

knives of ice wrote:i also think that when Shero came in he drafted all the Dmen for a post clutch and grab lockout hockey world. that is what things were supossed to be. that is what was promised.

now that the NHL refs the postseason where you can basically abuse star players and its little different than the 66 era the drafting strategy obviously needs to be retoooled and never really got a chance to work.


I always disagree with this because why then would he build a grinding, structured team in 2007-09?
We won a cup after a trip to the finals and he thought...."you know what we need a different type of team for this league".

To me that's just excusing his drafting and signings for a dumb system.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby slappybrown on Wed May 14, 2014 8:41 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
knives of ice wrote:so last year Shero was the GM of the year. people raved about his amazing trades.

now he should be fired and there are better replacements out there? seriously?

his worse mistake is believing in Bylsma. and really, if you have ever worked that closely with someone i can understand how that happens. many many many many many GMs have made the same mistake.

There's no question that he's an excellent deal maker. No one I've seen disputes that.

His draft record is awful. He's been unable to build a supporting cast that's good enough IMO. He's wasted money on players like Scuderi, Adams, and Glass. They've had issued developing young talent, and the forward pipeline is very thin. He and Byslma consistently iced a team that was not their best players.

Does his exceptional trade record (Kunitz, hossa/dupuis, Neal, and the deadline deals last year and this year, all of whom I liked outside of Murray), outweigh the other problems above? I'm leaning towards no.


Yeah, I guess a lot of his trades were good. But we also due to a silly drafting plan and poor drafting he had a lot of mediocre trades. They just aren't recognized as much because they involved draft picks.

2 seconds, 2 thirds and a 5th netted us Murray, Goc, Stempanik.

That's not all that great when you look at other deals.

That's not fair to Goc and Stempniak IMO. 3rd and later are something like a 12% hit rate to make the NHL. Two seconds for Murray was awful. Two thirds and a fifth for Goc and Stemp, who would actually potentially fit long term with respect to building a legit bottom 6 is legit IMO.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Wed May 14, 2014 8:44 pm

slappybrown wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
knives of ice wrote:so last year Shero was the GM of the year. people raved about his amazing trades.

now he should be fired and there are better replacements out there? seriously?

his worse mistake is believing in Bylsma. and really, if you have ever worked that closely with someone i can understand how that happens. many many many many many GMs have made the same mistake.

There's no question that he's an excellent deal maker. No one I've seen disputes that.

His draft record is awful. He's been unable to build a supporting cast that's good enough IMO. He's wasted money on players like Scuderi, Adams, and Glass. They've had issued developing young talent, and the forward pipeline is very thin. He and Byslma consistently iced a team that was not their best players.

Does his exceptional trade record (Kunitz, hossa/dupuis, Neal, and the deadline deals last year and this year, all of whom I liked outside of Murray), outweigh the other problems above? I'm leaning towards no.


Yeah, I guess a lot of his trades were good. But we also due to a silly drafting plan and poor drafting he had a lot of mediocre trades. They just aren't recognized as much because they involved draft picks.

2 seconds, 2 thirds and a 5th netted us Murray, Goc, Stempanik.

That's not all that great when you look at other deals.

That's not fair to Goc and Stempniak IMO. 3rd and later are something like a 12% hit rate to make the NHL. Two seconds for Murray was awful. Two thirds and a fifth for Goc and Stemp, who would actually potentially fit long term with respect to building a legit bottom 6 is legit IMO.


Valid points. I guess I am just saying not all his trades were masterful. We have also given up a lot of assets when you add in things like lower cost entry level deals for your own guys and so forth.

Just a lot of assets to me overall that are not recognized sometimes.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby knives of ice on Wed May 14, 2014 8:54 pm

also, concerning the draft - how successful could any GM actually be with where the penguins were drafting? since shero has been here the penguins have been pretty darn good. we have been in a win now mode almost every year trading away draft picks which i don't see how people can argue with what we did in the trades. we traded away a bunch of picks. you could argue we shouldn't have drafted all of those Dmen - ok thats valid. but it does seem like we did get alot of good Dmen and perhaps he was going with drafting the best player on the pens board when they are drafting when many do.

i'm not saying mistakes haven't been made in the draft but seriously, given the penguins draft position and the picks which i think were rightfully traded away how much better do you really think it should be? we do have players playing on this team drafted by shero what is the normal ratio given the 6-7 years shero has been here and penguins draft position that you think should be expected?
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby malksby8771 on Wed May 14, 2014 8:56 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:
ulf wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:
owtahear wrote:Oh and one other thing. Shero inherited a core of Sid, Geno, Letang, Fleury.


and a second pick overall (jordan)

Which he turned into a cup, Sutter, Domoulin and Pouliot. Go on..


not arguing that, just felt it was necessary to add that he also inherited a 2nd overall pick.


Shero took Staal over Toews, Backstrom, and Kessel. Not a great pick in hindsight, or with proper foresight quite frankly as they were all projected to have better offensive upside.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby mikey287 on Wed May 14, 2014 8:57 pm

I haven't read this yet, so I don't know if I like it or hate it...I'm just going to look one point at a time and respond because I like bulleted points...

owtahear wrote:1) Last year, the owners wanted Shero to fire Dan Bylsma. Shero stuck his neck out and defended and extended Bylsma. This year, the same failure has happened again and again with DB at the helm. So.....with the ship, down goes to the captain.


We didn't fail the same way again. We just failed again. I felt that 2012, 2013 and 2014 all had distinctly different feels and reasons for the losses. That said, they're all losses. I believe it's time for Bylsma to go, but this was probably the best job by the coaching staff in the last three years. Whatever that's worth. I guess not much.

owtahear wrote:2) The failure to get a top line winger for Sidney Crosby. Marian Hossa. That's it. Then again, you got Jerome Iginla for what looked like a winger, and you let your coach treat him like Tanner Glass.


Shero has provided a terrific roster over the years. Perfect? No. But he's done a great job. Hossa and Iginla were out-right theft. Dupuis as well. And the haul he got for Staal when we all knew had that was going to go is some kind of sorcery. Sure, Ekman didn't work and Murray was over-payment...but he's done a very good job in my opinion.

owtahear wrote:3) Poor drafting. After Rd 1, there has been little to no impact even at the "A" level. Constant drafting of defensemen. Constantly. ONE skilled forward in the system in Beau Bennett. Even Shero's BEST draft choice (Jordan Staal) was a mistake as he passed on Jonathon Toews. Look at teams like Boston, Chicago, Anaheim, they have 1st and 2nd year players playing major roles for them. Detroit looks like they are quickly retooling. The Pens? Looks like David Littlefield has been in charge of the drafts, then again, you could have drafted Brendan Saad or Jacob Silverberg and Disco would have played Gibbons or Vitale over them.


Nothing wrong with drafting d-men. Passing on Staal for Toews is awesome hindsight scouting, which everyone is good at. Either way, if they progressed the same way, how long are we able to keep Toews for? Or do we still have Malkin? Lots of alternate universes. Staal was a major part of a Cup victory. And the pieces gained from him are yet to be determined, but Sutter - the lone NHLer in the early going - has been nothing short of impressive. And was likely our best player in these playoffs. Our drafting is not great, but picking on the NHLers is the wrong way to go about it I think...

owtahear wrote:4) The Scuderi signing. You drafted defenseman after defenseman. And you felt the need to sign him for 4 years? In his mid 30's? Horrible. Just horrible.


Yeah, pretty much. Weird considering a player of similar attributes in Zbynek Michalek did not work out here. Surprised that the Scuderi signing took place. Looks even worse than it initially did after a year.

owtahear wrote:5) Too loyal to players who are fringe type. Craig Adams was done....you sign him to two years? Even the Dupuis signing.....great guy, but when it cuts down to it, he is a 3rd liner. Memo........think long and hard about Matt Niskanen. Good player, had a great season...but you drafted Depres, Borts, Harrington, Pouillot and Maatta.......time for these guys to rise up. Boston is able to play Hamilton, Krug and Bartkowski.


Fine with the Dupuis signing. Even if he's a top-9 player, he still a fine guy to have. Got a late start in the NHL, so the miles probably didn't pile up too quickly. Hope he's ok after his knee injury. But we owed him for some minimum wage work. This was a reward for what he did for us all these years. No problem with that. I didn't think keeping Niskanen was a likely or good idea because of the money. Having seen Niskanen's development since he was a lad, I'm pretty skeptical about this Niskanen. Undoubtedly the exception, not the rule, for his career.

owtahear wrote:6) Bottom 6. GMRS has forgotten that they compose two of the 4 lines. You had AHL players pretty much occupying 4 of these 6 spots every game. And smallish AHL players with little chance of becoming NHL players.


Meh, that's a little over the top and coaxed by an ahistoric amount of injury. Coaching plays a major factor in how bottom-sixes go too. As the forwards in the NHL that rank from 80 to 120 might not have too many differences. I don't think we've had a lot of great bottom six players here this year...but we've had very usable parts...

owtahear wrote:7) Prior to his stroke, I thought it was the perfect shot to trade Letang to get some quality forward depth. You chose not to, sign him to a long term deal, now you are pretty much stuck with him now that he has a stroke.


Well. That's a little much. It's very difficult to trade a player like Letang, a #1 PMD, like that...not because no one wants him, but because it's tough to bring yourself to do it. Like your scouting tip above, it wants to be a hindsight score, but honestly, the extension is exactly 0 days old. So to say anything about it would be, by definition, premature. I think Letang will be fine for us.

owtahear wrote:8) Failure to somehow get your head coach to adapt and learn from his mistakes. Somehow.....you let him continue on and on and on....


Coaching was largely addressed above. No doubt this staff learned from its mistakes though. Completely different club than the one we saw in 2012 for sure.

owtahear wrote:9) You turned this team from a potential dynasty, to paper champions, weak, soft, easy to play against. Somehow.


Eh, this is a point that is just being inserted so you get to 10...it's vague and unfocused on particulars...filler.

owtahear wrote:10) You failed to recognize the leadership void amongst your core players and didn't add a Billy Guerin type of player. Though you tried with Ryan Kesler. The problem here, some of the bad deals of the past, didn't allow you to up the ante and get a guy like Kesler. But they needed a grit and sandpaper guy like him who can play.


I don't think Kesler is really a great fit. But the leadership point is one I have harped on in the past. Interestingly, the coaches seem to have taken over more of a leadership role than before. Perhaps the organization thought that would mitigate the need to acquire a leadership guy. Either way, I agree, the leadership in the organization is not terribly strong. I'm not sure we have, as much as this is a buzzword and all, there is truth to it: a winning culture. Only one way to address that that I'm aware of...
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Gaucho on Wed May 14, 2014 9:04 pm

Nice work.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Desiato on Wed May 14, 2014 9:09 pm

malksby8771 wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:
ulf wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:
owtahear wrote:Oh and one other thing. Shero inherited a core of Sid, Geno, Letang, Fleury.


and a second pick overall (jordan)

Which he turned into a cup, Sutter, Domoulin and Pouliot. Go on..


not arguing that, just felt it was necessary to add that he also inherited a 2nd overall pick.


Shero took Staal over Toews, Backstrom, and Kessel. Not a great pick in hindsight, or with proper foresight quite frankly as they were all projected to have better offensive upside.


Staal was picked because the team had Sid and Geno already. It's easy to see what Shero was thinking.

I'm pleased with the results. Staal was the player the Pens needed at the time. Even in hindsight, Staal contributed to a very successful playoff roster.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby the riddler on Wed May 14, 2014 9:09 pm

Good post Mikey. Shero should not be fired. He's put together some really good teams over the years and has given his coach the opportunity to get another cup. He's a steady hand and if signing Rob Scuderi was one of his biggest mistakes then I'm OK with that.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby no name on Wed May 14, 2014 9:21 pm

Shero and his deals are good for the most part.

His signings are kinda bad actually

drafting in non existant.

His loyalty to his coach was disgusting.

More bad than good, but i don't see a decient candidate out there so miles well keep him.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby SolidSnake on Wed May 14, 2014 9:22 pm

no name wrote:Shero and his deals are good for the most part.

His signings are kinda bad actually

drafting in non existant.

His loyalty to his coach was disgusting.

More bad than good, but i don't see a decient candidate out there so miles well keep him.

Who's Miles?
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby shmenguin on Wed May 14, 2014 9:23 pm

Desiato wrote:Staal was picked because the team had Sid and Geno already. It's easy to see what Shero was thinking.

I'm pleased with the results. Staal was the player the Pens needed at the time. Even in hindsight, Staal contributed to a very successful playoff roster.


They didn't pick staal because he was worse than toews. They thought he was the best player and they were wrong. I can live with that. But they weren't earmarking their #2 overall pick for a 3rd line center. Get out of here with that.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby slappybrown on Wed May 14, 2014 9:23 pm

I disagree about the bottom six. The best teams have bottom sixes that play other teams to a draw, or in the case of someone like Chicago, are actually positives. It's not surprising that the Cooke-staal-Kennedy lines best seasons conincided with this teams best hockey. Staal he worked magic with given he was leaving, so the Sutter deal is a prime example of his ability, but the bottom six outside of him is filled not with players in the 80-200 range of forwards, but with multiple players in the 200-240 range. Glass and the Adams extension are his alone, and compounded by a continued insistence to play them over other options that at worst would have played the same and more likely than not would have been better.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby farnham16 on Wed May 14, 2014 9:35 pm

My biggest problem with Shero is that he didn't build this team around Crosby and Malkin, he built it around Dan Bylsma and his system. He has not only built the Penguins around Bylsma, but he's also built WBS around Bylsma as well. That is how much he believes in Dan Bylsma.

Shero and Bylsma are connected at the hip and you shouldn't let go of one and keep the other IMO. They have been in this together the past five years. And this ship sinking is on both of them.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby sil on Wed May 14, 2014 9:39 pm

Good defenseman can play in any system. We don't need Bylsma's system for the current players/prospects we have. That's just silly.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Maestro on Wed May 14, 2014 9:39 pm

He went to bat for Bylsma. Now both must go. Shero decided to fight for his coach. Now he must fall on his sword.
It's time for him to "man up" and resign.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby sil on Wed May 14, 2014 9:40 pm

SolidSnake wrote:
no name wrote:Shero and his deals are good for the most part.

His signings are kinda bad actually

drafting in non existant.

His loyalty to his coach was disgusting.

More bad than good, but i don't see a decient candidate out there so miles well keep him.

Who's Miles?


Miles Bennett Dyson.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby sil on Wed May 14, 2014 9:44 pm

Maestro wrote:Now he must fall on his sword.
It's time for him to "man up" and resign.


Image
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby shmenguin on Wed May 14, 2014 9:52 pm

Shero has had to work with an intimidating and rigid budget since he started. Every move he's made has had to take into account an eventual giant payday for multiple players on his team to a degree that no other GM has to deal with. Because of that, I'm not going to fault him for not getting Sid and Geno the right linemates. He's done an exceptional job under the circumstances.

However...

He can't draft. This is a problem when the proven path to success is to get bargain performances out of young players. He's also the guy behind a large chunk of bylsma's errors. No doubt he's on board with the mangling of depres and the insistence that Adams is still an Nhl player or that tanner god damn glass dresses on the 3rd line in the most important game of the year. He isn't good at judging his own talent and he doesn't get the right players into the lineup in the right spots.

But like it's been said...there are a lot of terrible GMs out there. I'll settle for one who is at worst decent and at best very good.
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