The Case Against Rejean Shero

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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby sil on Wed May 14, 2014 10:03 pm

shmenguin wrote:I'll settle for one who is at worst decent and at best very good.


The dealing and signing is more about the man. For instance, former Canucks GM Mike Gillis is simply afraid to make a real hockey deal and he's always been that way...those kinds of things don't really change. Though it is headed by the man, drafting is a team event...and it can change drastically over time...either for good or bad...and Shero's drafting of forwards really has no where to go but up.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby owtahear on Wed May 14, 2014 10:09 pm

Desiato wrote:The more I think about it, the more I would be okay with the departure of Shero.

The bottom line for me is the defense corps. I can't imagine a scenario in which it could have won a cup. It badly needed a new Orpik last year. I love Orpik, but with his mileage, you can't expect him to continue to perform in that role without injury problems.

His roster suggests he's out of touch with the way the game is now played. Not every team needs to be the Bruins--as the Hawks showed--but every team needs size and hard checkers. Furthermore, he supported the deployment of a system that seems better suited for the NHL in 2006 than 2014.


Interesting as I am watching the LA/Anaheim game watching ex Pen draft choices Jake Muzzin and Ben Lovejoy play key roles.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby lemieuxReturns on Wed May 14, 2014 10:14 pm

shmenguin wrote:Shero has had to work with an intimidating and rigid budget since he started. Every move he's made has had to take into account an eventual giant payday for multiple players on his team to a degree that no other GM has to deal with. Because of that, I'm not going to fault him for not getting Sid and Geno the right linemates. He's done an exceptional job under the circumstances.

However...

He can't draft. This is a problem when the proven path to success is to get bargain performances out of young players. He's also the guy behind a large chunk of bylsma's errors. No doubt he's on board with the mangling of depres and the insistence that Adams is still an Nhl player or that tanner god damn glass dresses on the 3rd line in the most important game of the year. He isn't good at judging his own talent and he doesn't get the right players into the lineup in the right spots.

But like it's been said...there are a lot of terrible GMs out there. I'll settle for one who is at worst decent and at best very good.


I agree with a lot of what you say most of the time, but I don't get the glass hate. Beau was doing nothing good out there.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby sil on Wed May 14, 2014 10:15 pm

owtahear wrote:
Desiato wrote:The more I think about it, the more I would be okay with the departure of Shero.

The bottom line for me is the defense corps. I can't imagine a scenario in which it could have won a cup. It badly needed a new Orpik last year. I love Orpik, but with his mileage, you can't expect him to continue to perform in that role without injury problems.

His roster suggests he's out of touch with the way the game is now played. Not every team needs to be the Bruins--as the Hawks showed--but every team needs size and hard checkers. Furthermore, he supported the deployment of a system that seems better suited for the NHL in 2006 than 2014.


Interesting as I am watching the LA/Anaheim game watching ex Pen draft choices Jake Muzzin and Ben Lovejoy play key roles.


Lovejoy was a undrafted free agent signing of Shero's...but yes, Muzzin was drafted by Shero.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Desiato on Wed May 14, 2014 10:30 pm

Lovejoy on DB's system:

“When it works,” former Penguins defenseman Ben Lovejoy said, “it looks so pretty.”
“It wasn't the right system for me,” Lovejoy said.
“It's complex,” Lovejoy said. “They're so talented that they usually pull it off. They have people who do it very, very well.”
Lovejoy explained that, when it is clicking on all cylinders, the Penguins' system is a thing of beauty. One minor mistake, though, can create a disaster.

While not Shero related specifically, it speaks to how the Pens played something of an anomalous system for the past five years under his watch.

http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/local/byl ... yof/nfZwk/

He's a good example of why we shouldn't be so quick to judge the players. Used according to his skills, Lovejoy is the kind of contributor the Pens could have used.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby knives of ice on Wed May 14, 2014 11:49 pm

Conor Sheary the Umass college ufa we signed was said to be the best player for WBS in their double ot game tonight that Depres scored the winner in. i guess that's good.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Nizzy on Thu May 15, 2014 12:42 am

You could make a legit case that over the past 5 years Bylsma has actually done a better job than Shero. Bylsma lost Crosby/Malkin and won coach of the year. At least he can win with fringe players in the regular season.

Shero has been a complete draft failure, and besides a couple good deadline deals hasn't done much.

Not firing Shero is a big mistake.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby mikey287 on Thu May 15, 2014 12:54 am

Boy, a lot of people are under the impression that the GM is the sole decider in drafting...interesting...
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy on Thu May 15, 2014 1:11 am

mikey287 wrote:Boy, a lot of people are under the impression that the GM is the sole decider in drafting...interesting...


I always thought they did it by putting fishes on a bunch of names and then having a real Penguin walk to one. The fish he chose is the player we draft.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby bhaw on Thu May 15, 2014 1:11 am

I guess here's the thing I have with the drafting gripe... we have no idea how well he's drafted. And what's weirder is that it's Shero's doing that we have no idea how well he drafted. He drafts all these defensemen year after year. And instead of letting them play out, he does stuff like signing Scuderi. He basically boxed out all his own draft picks. I mean, it doesn't help that DB makes awful lineup choices, but ultimately by having Martin, Letang, Orpik, Scuderi, and Niskanen, there was no show of having more than one guy fill in. Not an excuse and not really sure which way I'm arguing. Just pointing out that we have no idea if RS has been successful with drafting, which probably points to it not being successful.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Humperdink on Thu May 15, 2014 6:52 am

mikey287 wrote:Boy, a lot of people are under the impression that the GM is the sole decider in drafting...interesting...


I thinks it clear that most GM's are not the sole deciders on draft choices. But if they are not the key deciders and have veto power on draft picks, then they are miscast.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Jim on Thu May 15, 2014 7:00 am

Craig Patrick's draft record was not exactly anything to write home about... and that was with a lot more experience in doing it. The first draft that I went to... Pens first round pick... Robert Dome! Whaaaaat???
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Thu May 15, 2014 7:49 am

slappybrown wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
knives of ice wrote:so last year Shero was the GM of the year. people raved about his amazing trades.

now he should be fired and there are better replacements out there? seriously?

his worse mistake is believing in Bylsma. and really, if you have ever worked that closely with someone i can understand how that happens. many many many many many GMs have made the same mistake.

There's no question that he's an excellent deal maker. No one I've seen disputes that.

His draft record is awful. He's been unable to build a supporting cast that's good enough IMO. He's wasted money on players like Scuderi, Adams, and Glass. They've had issued developing young talent, and the forward pipeline is very thin. He and Byslma consistently iced a team that was not their best players.

Does his exceptional trade record (Kunitz, hossa/dupuis, Neal, and the deadline deals last year and this year, all of whom I liked outside of Murray), outweigh the other problems above? I'm leaning towards no.


Yeah, I guess a lot of his trades were good. But we also due to a silly drafting plan and poor drafting he had a lot of mediocre trades. They just aren't recognized as much because they involved draft picks.

2 seconds, 2 thirds and a 5th netted us Murray, Goc, Stempanik.

That's not all that great when you look at other deals.

That's not fair to Goc and Stempniak IMO. 3rd and later are something like a 12% hit rate to make the NHL. Two seconds for Murray was awful. Two thirds and a fifth for Goc and Stemp, who would actually potentially fit long term with respect to building a legit bottom 6 is legit IMO.


Lets not forget, he also gave away Lovejoy, who has been very good for Anaheim, as well as Michalek, who has been a legit top 4 for Phoenix. I know he wanted to move Michalek's salary, but failing to extract even a decent bottom six forward, a need all the way back then, was a failure.

I don't have as much of a problem with surrendering the draft picks at the deadline because it was done in the context of going for the Cup and each deal did seemingly address an apparent need at the time.

I do have a huge problem with Shero's emphasis on chasing the big fish. His obsession with Kesler at this season's deadline cost the team better value additions which were available. Ask Marc Bergevin.

In addition to the draft failures, Shero has steadily downsized the roster and failed to address the glaring lack of size and physicality among the bottom six forwards for the last two off seasons, instead bringing in a steady parade of undersized, under-skilled has been and never will be AHL scrubs. What exactly is Shero's fascination with smaller players??? This has also infected the draft and his undrafted and college FA signings as his most recent, Sheary and Dea, are both midgets as well. Its insane. The never ending search for the next Chris Conner. :face:

Why would anyone trust Shero to oversee what must be done? Everything that needs to happen now, so clearly needed to happen after the Philthy and Boston fiascoes. Instead, Shero doubled down, extended DB and made the team even smaller and softer :face: His response to the Boston sweep was to extend everyone, overpay for an aging Scuderi, gift two years to Adams and hand a contract to Matt D'Agostini :face:
He also brought in Kobasew and kept Jeffery around long after it was obvious that the coach he had just extended had no use for DJ. The team started the season with 5 roster spots occupied by completely useless, non-NHL caliber barely warm bodies. That was his response to the Boston Massacre. :evil:

Then he drafted, I am not making this up, a 152lb center in the third round!!! :face: :face: :face:

You want that guy to oversee what must now be done??? :shock:

Shero has to go. Yesterday.

What is taking so long???? :evil:
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Thu May 15, 2014 7:53 am

mikey287 wrote:Boy, a lot of people are under the impression that the GM is the sole decider in drafting...interesting...


Most probably assume that the drafting and scouting departments fall under the purview and control of the GM and that he thus has control over the hiring and firing of scouts, drafting and scouting philosophy and final say over who they select.

Do the Pens have a different organization structure about which we are unaware? The buck stops with Shero.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu May 15, 2014 7:57 am

mikey287 wrote:Boy, a lot of people are under the impression that the GM is the sole decider in drafting...interesting...


I didn't see anyone reference that. But he is in charge. They are his scouts and his plan. He can decide to scout Europe more if desired for example, and he can certainly decide whether or not to load up on one position that takes longer to develop and voids the organization of depth. And gives us a total of 20 goals from your draft picks over the last 8 years with half of those from Matta.

The structure, the plan and the overall success or failure is on him. Lower draft picks, trading picks, stocking up on dmen which will "eventually" help out. All excuses for an overall average job at best.

Nobody believes he is the sole decider, but neither is the CEO of a corporation. In the end it's your organization and you are ultimately responsible for the results.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby sil on Thu May 15, 2014 8:17 am

mikey287 wrote:Boy, a lot of people are under the impression that the GM is the sole decider in drafting...interesting...


Exactly the point I was trying to make at the top of this page. There always room and ability for a team's drafting to change and improve.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby sil on Thu May 15, 2014 8:21 am

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:Then he drafted, I am not making this up, a 152lb center in the third round!!! :face: :face: :face:


Men tend to continue physical growth until about 21 or 22.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Luckybreak on Thu May 15, 2014 8:27 am

For me Shero was a great GM dragged down by his decision to stick by his good buddy disco. I'm certain that his approach to building this team changed drastically from being one that was darn hard to play against to the hot mess we saw give up vs the Rangers.
He was heavily influenced by DB, be it the drafting of small speedy forwards or glut of puck moving Dmen, all to meet the requirements of a system and coach he should have identified as flawed after the Philly series. What happened the year after? He tried to get all the bits the team was missing (grit, size, leadership, heart etc) and Bylsma botched it. The Boston aftermath was most appalling for me as Shero incomprehensibly rewarded Bylsma for his abject failure to coach a team so rich and deep we will never see its like again in the salary cap era.

As much as I hated his decisions to extend DB, Adams and Letang, as much of a disaster the Scuderi signing has been, as much as I shudder at the prospect of another draft picking skilled waterbugs, I really don't know if there are any viably better options out there. Much like the team itself I would love to have seen what the current situation would be had Shero had the good sense to can Bylsma any of the last three years. It may be too late for that now, and I'm not sure he could ever recover from the loss of Danny boy, but if he is retained he has a great deal of work to do...
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Thu May 15, 2014 8:29 am

sil wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Boy, a lot of people are under the impression that the GM is the sole decider in drafting...interesting...


Exactly the point I was trying to make at the top of this page. There always room and ability for a team's drafting to change and improve.


Not under Shero. What changes has he made recently? Shero has not, at least up to this point, recognized that any problem exists. Shero hired Randy Sexton, largely a failure with the Panthers, as his co-director of amateur scouting. How is that working out?

In the past year Shero has drafted a 153lb center in the third round and signed two more midget free agents, JS Dea and Connor Sheary. He doesn't see the problem. :evil:

Ray Shero is the face of five years of underachieving failure due in large part to the organizational direction that he has chosen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O914JH6BnY
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Thu May 15, 2014 8:36 am

sil wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Boy, a lot of people are under the impression that the GM is the sole decider in drafting...interesting...


Exactly the point I was trying to make at the top of this page. There always room and ability for a team's drafting to change and improve.


Ok, lets say he fills out completely and gets to 5'10, 180... So five years from now they might have a smallish, skilled center that won't be good enough for the top two lines nor gritty and big enough for the bottom six. How does that help them get past Boston or the type of playoff defense we just witnessed??? :face:

They should be drafting big kids that can skate and have shown an exuberance for running opposing d-men through the glass. They haven't drafted one of those in the eight years Shero has been selecting and he has yet to recognize this glaringly obvious need. :face:

Shero has to go.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby lemieuxReturns on Thu May 15, 2014 8:52 am

mikey287 wrote:Boy, a lot of people are under the impression that the GM is the sole decider in drafting...interesting...


Are the GM's not the ones responsible for hiring / firing the scouts?
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby slipshod on Thu May 15, 2014 8:53 am

It's this simple.

Shero and Disco drafted players and designed a system for the promised "New NHL" and it works in the regular season very well.

The NHL reverts to the Cro-Magnon league in the playoffs where the small speedy forwards and D-men get shoved around and held.

They haven't adapted so ownership has to bring in people who will.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby sil on Thu May 15, 2014 9:05 am

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:
sil wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Boy, a lot of people are under the impression that the GM is the sole decider in drafting...interesting...


Exactly the point I was trying to make at the top of this page. There always room and ability for a team's drafting to change and improve.


Not under Shero. What changes has he made recently?


Dude, you seem to really want instant gratification with all this stuff. It takes several years for draft classes to develop and their imprint on history to be written. Do you know when the Redwings drafted Gustav Nyquist? It was in 2008, and he just had a real impact in the NHL for first time in late 2013. Our fanbase would've been calling him a bust by 2010.

The pens don't have a forward like Nyquist in the system, but we have several guys whose stories simply haven't been written yet and they're guys who have the tools to make it.

Be patient. Life isn't about instant gratification.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby sil on Thu May 15, 2014 9:06 am

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:Ok, lets say he fills out completely and gets to 5'10, 180... So five years from now they might have a smallish, skilled center that won't be good enough for the top two lines nor gritty and big enough for the bottom six. How does that help them get past Boston or the type of playoff defense we just witnessed??? :face:


Have you seen Montreal's lineup?
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Thu May 15, 2014 9:07 am

slipshod wrote:It's this simple.

Shero and Disco drafted players and designed a system for the promised "New NHL" and it works in the regular season very well.

The NHL reverts to the Cro-Magnon league in the playoffs where the small speedy forwards and D-men get shoved around and held.

They haven't adapted so ownership has to bring in people who will.


It doesn't work in the playoffs because teams can adjust over games vs the same team and we don't deviate enough other than some breakout adjustments.

I've said this before this theory befuddles me because they went to the finals and won a cup with grinding, forechecking, defensive positionally sound team in an "open" NHL so the obvious move is to deviate fronm that immediatley? Makes no sense. They should be fired on the spot if that's the case.

You always need what they had in 09 to win a cup, more open league or not. The fact they thought otherwise after successes speaks volumes if true.
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