The Case Against Rejean Shero

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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Penspal on Thu May 15, 2014 8:10 am

meecrofilm wrote:Scotty Bowman's words: "Crosby has been there (Pittsburgh) what, 8 years? Aside from Malkin (who is really a center), has he ever had a star to play with? Kunitz is a nice player, and I'm not trying to denigrate him....it looks like to me, their supporting cast is not good enough."

Hey, at least someone outside the organization can recognize this. Not sure who he is or what his credentials are, but it's a start......


This apparently came from a radio interview. If true, shame on all of you for not following this track.

Really, Sid did have Hossa, who was pretty much at his prime. They did click, and went to the finals, but did not quite have enough other players, or experience to win it.

But other than Hossa, Sid should have a better fit. I give full marks to Dupuis and Kunitz, both have become better players and made themselves worthy of playing with Sid, but both of them do not stars (arguements for Kunitz as he did play for Team Canada).

Sid could really use a big body crash/bang/protect kind of guy to go with another skill player.

A few points in defense of Ray.

- Shero got stuck up against the cap, then it was lowered and he was handcuffed (remember, he has cap expert Botteral working with him, not solely his fault)
- Injuries, these guys need to be replaced, but then they come back, so dippping into the minors when up agains the cap is pretty much only option.
- When best trades in recent years debate gets tossed around, Shero's name is always in there.
- GM of the year not long ago.
- This year's loss was in a game 7 vs. a team that had every reason to fight harder than the Pens.

I realize that its all about what you did for me lately. And I'm not going out and trying to refute some of the facts against him, I'm not saying he's perfect, but if the internet mob is taking him to the gallows, let him at least have a sip of water and a few words before he gets his punishment, he deserves that.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby slappybrown on Thu May 15, 2014 8:25 am

sil wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Boy, a lot of people are under the impression that the GM is the sole decider in drafting...interesting...


Exactly the point I was trying to make at the top of this page. There always room and ability for a team's drafting to change and improve.

He's been the GM for 8 years. "He needs more time to improve the Pens scouting and draft apparatus" is not a persuasive argument IMO.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Thu May 15, 2014 8:27 am

sil wrote:
Chirpin' Grinder wrote:Ok, lets say he fills out completely and gets to 5'10, 180... So five years from now they might have a smallish, skilled center that won't be good enough for the top two lines nor gritty and big enough for the bottom six. How does that help them get past Boston or the type of playoff defense we just witnessed??? :face:


Have you seen Montreal's lineup?


Yea they have Gallagher who is perhaps the grittiest, toughest pound for pound guy in the league and Gionta and Briere, smurfs but with proven ability to score in the tough areas and to do so in big games.

They also have these forwards at 6'2, 200 or better;

81 Lars Eller 6-2 209
17 Rene Bourque 6-2 213
32 Travis Moen 6-2 218
67 Max Pacioretty 6-2 219
20 Thomas Vanek 6-2 205
8 Brandon Prust 6-2 195
22 Dale Weise 6-2 210

The Pens don't have anything approaching even that moderate size and grit.

On D they have Weaver and Bouillon, small but gritty to the very definition of the word. Those guys have made a living off of competing and winning battles, the anti-Scuderi, if you will.

The rest of the blue line is over 6ft, 200lb and not a softie among them.

In addition they have a coach that knows how to deploy them.

What was your point?
Last edited by Chirpin' Grinder on Thu May 15, 2014 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Thu May 15, 2014 8:43 am

Penspal wrote:
Sid could really use a big body crash/bang/protect kind of guy to go with another skill player.

A few points in defense of Ray.

- Shero got stuck up against the cap, then it was lowered and he was handcuffed (remember, he has cap expert Botteral working with him, not solely his fault)
- Injuries, these guys need to be replaced, but then they come back, so dippping into the minors when up agains the cap is pretty much only option.
- When best trades in recent years debate gets tossed around, Shero's name is always in there.
- GM of the year not long ago.
- This year's loss was in a game 7 vs. a team that had every reason to fight harder than the Pens.

I realize that its all about what you did for me lately. And I'm not going out and trying to refute some of the facts against him, I'm not saying he's perfect, but if the internet mob is taking him to the gallows, let him at least have a sip of water and a few words before he gets his punishment, he deserves that.


PP, a few counterpoints;
-Not only does Sid not have a body crash/bang/protect kind of guy, the entire organization doesn't have one and Shero hasn't even attempted to draft one. There is no evidence that Shero even sees this as a need, which was unconscionable after Sid's concussion issues and remains so. Sid's Tocchet should have been acquired during his recovery, not just getting around to addressing it three playoff embarrassments later. Shero is still drafting and signing 150-160 pound midgets.
-Shero didn't get stuck against the cap. He stuck himself there by signing Scuderi, a completely unnecessary and disastrous signing. Had he simply invested that money, and what he squandered on Adams, D'Agostini, Jeffery and Kobasew on bringing in two decent third liners with size and snarl, the team would have looked much different.
-He didn't recognize the failure after the Philthy Fiasco or the Boston Massacre. He changed nothing of consequence and rewarded many of the culprits with new contracts. It lead to the exact same result. Why should we trust the man that failed to recognize the problems after the last two collapses to solve them after this one??
-We don't even know that Shero recognizes the problems now. He didn't at the trade deadline. He didn't add any size or muscle to get ready for the playoff war. He didn't recognize it after the Flyers manhandled and totally out classed the Pens in the home and home series that DB had lost the team. The signs were all there at the time and we discussed the same problems in your Morning After threads.

Shero is the maestro of this fiasco. Many said it two years ago after the Flyers embarrassed them. Many said it after the Boston Massacre. Nothing changed and we are right back in the same situation.

Shero has to go.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Pitts on Thu May 15, 2014 8:50 am

Crankshaft wrote:
relantel wrote:Dumb question perhaps - was Jordan Staal drafted before or after Shero took over? I thought that was the offseason Craig Patrick was not renewed.


Staal was his first draft pick, I believe.

This is a dumb argument anyhow. So, he drafted Toews instead of Staal....would either one of them still be here? No. Especially if it were Toews (or even Kessel as has been mentioned before).
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Pitts on Thu May 15, 2014 8:54 am

meecrofilm wrote:Scotty Bowman's words: ..."
... Not sure who he is or what his credentials are, but it's a start......

You don't know who Scotty Bowman is? :shock:
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Tico Rick on Thu May 15, 2014 8:56 am

Pitts wrote:
meecrofilm wrote:Scotty Bowman's words: ..."
... Not sure who he is or what his credentials are, but it's a start......

You don't know who Scotty Bowman is? :shock:

I think that's called being facetious.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Pitts on Thu May 15, 2014 9:02 am

MalkinIsMyHomeboy wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Boy, a lot of people are under the impression that the GM is the sole decider in drafting...interesting...


I always thought they did it by putting fishes on a bunch of names and then having a real Penguin walk to one. The fish he chose is the player we draft.

No, they use the duck pond method:
Spoiler:
Image
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Pitts on Thu May 15, 2014 9:02 am

Tico Rick wrote:
Pitts wrote:
meecrofilm wrote:Scotty Bowman's words: ..."
... Not sure who he is or what his credentials are, but it's a start......

You don't know who Scotty Bowman is? :shock:

I think that's called being facetious.

I hope, unless the poster is a (very) young one.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby She'sTheFastest on Thu May 15, 2014 9:10 am

Just kill them!
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby sil on Thu May 15, 2014 9:12 am

slappybrown wrote:
sil wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Boy, a lot of people are under the impression that the GM is the sole decider in drafting...interesting...


Exactly the point I was trying to make at the top of this page. There always room and ability for a team's drafting to change and improve.

He's been the GM for 8 years. "He needs more time to improve the Pens scouting and draft apparatus" is not a persuasive argument IMO.


He doesn't need more time...the whole operation is always a moving target. The other aspects of a GM are more about the kind of person he is...and those are things that Shero excels at. Just because he drafted poorly in 2007 doesn't mean that he'll draft poorly in 2014. If he was a moron GM who no one liked to deal with in 2007...chances are he'll still be like that in 2014.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby sil on Thu May 15, 2014 9:24 am

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:
sil wrote:
Chirpin' Grinder wrote:Ok, lets say he fills out completely and gets to 5'10, 180... So five years from now they might have a smallish, skilled center that won't be good enough for the top two lines nor gritty and big enough for the bottom six. How does that help them get past Boston or the type of playoff defense we just witnessed??? :face:


Have you seen Montreal's lineup?


Yea they have Gallagher who is perhaps the grittiest, toughest pound for pound guy in the league and Gionta and Briere, smurfs but with proven ability to score in the tough areas and to do so in big games.

They also have these forwards at 6'2, 200 or better;

81 Lars Eller 6-2 209
17 Rene Bourque 6-2 213
32 Travis Moen 6-2 218
67 Max Pacioretty 6-2 219
20 Thomas Vanek 6-2 205
8 Brandon Prust 6-2 195
22 Dale Weise 6-2 210

The Pens don't have anything approaching even that moderate size and grit.

On D they have Weaver and Bouillon, small but gritty to the very definition of the word. Those guys have made a living off of competing and winning battles, the anti-Scuderi, if you will.

The rest of the blue line is over 6ft, 200lb and not a softie among them.

In addition they have a coach that knows how to deploy them.

What was your point?


CG, Boston out-sized Montreal pretty much across the board. It wasn't Montreal's size that gave them the series win...and wasn't our size that cost us the series' losses to the B's and the Rags. And it isn't size (as you allude to above) that determines how good a player will be at winning battles. There are other things at play here.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby PAPLine on Thu May 15, 2014 9:40 am

How much of GMRS's work is at the behest of STBFHCDB in trying to put together a dream team that is what STBFHCDB wants the NHL to be rather than what the NHL really is. Remember OML wants the same type of league that STBFHCDB wants. (His comments about the 'Garage League' several years ago. Of course GMRS did lobby to have STBFHCDB extended last year.
But as I write this, at the same time, they did send MAF to the sports psychologist, and hired ACJM to try to fix things.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Penspal on Thu May 15, 2014 9:47 am

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:
Penspal wrote:
Sid could really use a big body crash/bang/protect kind of guy to go with another skill player.

A few points in defense of Ray.

- Shero got stuck up against the cap, then it was lowered and he was handcuffed (remember, he has cap expert Botteral working with him, not solely his fault)
- Injuries, these guys need to be replaced, but then they come back, so dippping into the minors when up agains the cap is pretty much only option.
- When best trades in recent years debate gets tossed around, Shero's name is always in there.
- GM of the year not long ago.
- This year's loss was in a game 7 vs. a team that had every reason to fight harder than the Pens.

I realize that its all about what you did for me lately. And I'm not going out and trying to refute some of the facts against him, I'm not saying he's perfect, but if the internet mob is taking him to the gallows, let him at least have a sip of water and a few words before he gets his punishment, he deserves that.


PP, a few counterpoints;
-Not only does Sid not have a body crash/bang/protect kind of guy, the entire organization doesn't have one and Shero hasn't even attempted to draft one. There is no evidence that Shero even sees this as a need, which was unconscionable after Sid's concussion issues and remains so. Sid's Tocchet should have been acquired during his recovery, not just getting around to addressing it three playoff embarrassments later. Shero is still drafting and signing 150-160 pound midgets.
Your right, I think his plan was to sign some. Adam Payerl comes to mind, and it just didn't work out for him. Point taken.

-Shero didn't get stuck against the cap. He stuck himself there by signing Scuderi, a completely unnecessary and disastrous signing. Had he simply invested that money, and what he squandered on Adams, D'Agostini, Jeffery and Kobasew on bringing in two decent third liners with size and snarl, the team would have looked much different.
I simply cannot argue this point. Scuds was horrible. He started off okay, was so solid defensively early on 10-15 games in, then the wheels fell off. While many people questioned this signing when it happened, I don't think anyone would have predicted how poorly he played. And now the Pens have 3 more years of it. So its Shero's fault, but really, who know it was this bad.



-He didn't recognize the failure after the Philthy Fiasco or the Boston Massacre. He changed nothing of consequence and rewarded many of the culprits with new contracts. It lead to the exact same result. Why should we trust the man that failed to recognize the problems after the last two collapses to solve them after this one??
Philly was about guys losing cool, specifically Sid/Geno/Letang. That didn't happen last year or this year. The plan was to make his existing stars better/tougher vs meltdown, which he did. Boston was a complete shutdown and out in 4. Pens were game 7 vs Rags, but scoring was the problem, but it was improved. Factor in Sid's concussion recovery last year and I don't see exactly the same results other than losing the seres, which has soo many factors involved. If that's what you mean, then can't argue it, just don't see them as equal


-We don't even know that Shero recognizes the problems now. He didn't at the trade deadline. He didn't add any size or muscle to get ready for the playoff war. He didn't recognize it after the Flyers manhandled and totally out classed the Pens in the home and home series that DB had lost the team. The signs were all there at the time and we discussed the same problems in your Morning After threads. One of the learnings from the trade deadline last year was that too much infused blood late could not result in meshing. So he took a different approach. Also, the trade market has become tougher for him. Would Kessler really have made a difference (we'll never know, but he was banged up to begin with, and Sutter was really good in the playoffs). I didn't agree with all the extensions he gave, but they were the going rate. Backing up MAF looks like the right call, Letang's potential made his contract within the realm of reason (on the edge), but then he starts the year HORRIBLE and has serious health scare. Tough break, but could he have foreseen that?

Shero is the maestro of this fiasco. Many said it two years ago after the Flyers embarrassed them. Many said it after the Boston Massacre. Nothing changed and we are right back in the same situation.

Shero has to go.

I really appreciate your insights and a well worded response (as opposed to the LGP one liners), and it has moved me closer to the Shero has to go camp. I want to hear what Shero has to say at exit interviews, especially after everyone lets some emotion go. It should be interesting.


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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Thu May 15, 2014 10:04 am

Penspal wrote:
I really appreciate your insights and a well worded response (as opposed to the LGP one liners), and it has moved me closer to the Shero has to go camp. I want to hear what Shero has to say at exit interviews, especially after everyone lets some emotion go. It should be interesting.



:thumb: much appreciated PP. I have long been a fan of your Morning After threads and value your insight.

I don't have a problem with the Letang deal. Shero had to sign him and got a fair deal for both sides. I am sure Letang will be much improved with a competent coaching staff and system in place.

Shero probably won't speak publicly until we have already learned his fate, but it will be interesting nonetheless.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby sil on Thu May 15, 2014 10:18 am

Regardless of opinion...I would honestly be quite shocked if we fired Shero...and I would be quite shocked if we didn't fire Bylsma.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby lemieuxReturns on Thu May 15, 2014 11:37 am

sil wrote:Regardless of opinion...I would honestly be quite shocked if we fired Shero...and I would be quite shocked if we didn't fire Bylsma.


True, i do not believe that Shero will be fired. One thing i am afraid of though is it always seems like when a GM is on the hot seat they make some of the worst trades ever. I am sure Shero feels some heat right now, let's hope he does not turn that into a giveaway session this summer.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby slappybrown on Thu May 15, 2014 11:41 am

sil wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
sil wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Boy, a lot of people are under the impression that the GM is the sole decider in drafting...interesting...


Exactly the point I was trying to make at the top of this page. There always room and ability for a team's drafting to change and improve.

He's been the GM for 8 years. "He needs more time to improve the Pens scouting and draft apparatus" is not a persuasive argument IMO.


He doesn't need more time...the whole operation is always a moving target. The other aspects of a GM are more about the kind of person he is...and those are things that Shero excels at. Just because he drafted poorly in 2007 doesn't mean that he'll draft poorly in 2014. If he was a moron GM who no one liked to deal with in 2007...chances are he'll still be like that in 2014.

Your standard means that no one can ever be judged or evaluated because at some unknown point in the future, he may do better. While more recent drafts aren't properly evaluated right now, what about the past 8 years tells you that he's shown an ability to identify (particularly forward) talent in the draft, especially outside or round 1? You can't just say maybe he'll get it right or otherwise change the scouting and evaluation process for the better because...just because.

He's excellent at deal making. It's one aspect definitely strongly in his favor. I don't really understand what you're trying to say with the rest of your post about being a moron no one wants to deal with as it relates to the draft.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby meecrofilm on Thu May 15, 2014 11:58 am

Pitts wrote:
Tico Rick wrote:
Pitts wrote:
meecrofilm wrote:Scotty Bowman's words: ..."
... Not sure who he is or what his credentials are, but it's a start......

You don't know who Scotty Bowman is? :shock:

I think that's called being facetious.

I hope, unless the poster is a (very) young one.


I really thought I left enough ellipses there at the end, but, apparently not!
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby DelPen on Thu May 15, 2014 12:38 pm

Here's all the evidence you need:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O914JH6BnY#t=153
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Thu May 15, 2014 12:48 pm

DelPen wrote:Here's all the evidence you need:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O914JH6BnY#t=153


Exactly. And there is zero evidence that Shero has recognized that a problem even exists.

His response to the Boston sweep was to extend everyone, overpay for an aging Scuderi, gift two years to Adams and hand a contract to Matt D'Agostini :face:
He also brought in Kobasew and kept Jeffery around long after it was obvious that the coach he had just extended had no use for DJ. The team started the season with 5 roster spots occupied by completely useless, non-NHL caliber barely warm bodies. That was his response to the Boston Massacre. :evil:

Absolutely no reason to trust Ray Shero to do what needs to be done now.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby sil on Thu May 15, 2014 1:03 pm

slappybrown wrote:
sil wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
sil wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Boy, a lot of people are under the impression that the GM is the sole decider in drafting...interesting...


Exactly the point I was trying to make at the top of this page. There always room and ability for a team's drafting to change and improve.

He's been the GM for 8 years. "He needs more time to improve the Pens scouting and draft apparatus" is not a persuasive argument IMO.


He doesn't need more time...the whole operation is always a moving target. The other aspects of a GM are more about the kind of person he is...and those are things that Shero excels at. Just because he drafted poorly in 2007 doesn't mean that he'll draft poorly in 2014. If he was a moron GM who no one liked to deal with in 2007...chances are he'll still be like that in 2014.

Your standard means that no one can ever be judged or evaluated because at some unknown point in the future, he may do better. While more recent drafts aren't properly evaluated right now, what about the past 8 years tells you that he's shown an ability to identify (particularly forward) talent in the draft, especially outside or round 1? You can't just say maybe he'll get it right or otherwise change the scouting and evaluation process for the better because...just because.

He's excellent at deal making. It's one aspect definitely strongly in his favor. I don't really understand what you're trying to say with the rest of your post about being a moron no one wants to deal with as it relates to the draft.


How does that indicate that someone can't be judged...who hasn't agreed that his drafting of forwards hasn't been stellar up to this point? We all know it. The point I'm trying to make is that drafting is a constantly evolving process. It will evolve this year based on personnel and on the intricacies of the game. The man himself...the man who is quite good at making deals, is willing to execute real trades, is viewed by many of his peers as a top GM and guy they like to deal with...that guy is who he is. That won't change...and what he excels at (those things I just mentioned) are things very hard to replace in this league.

His drafting of forwards has been abysmal so far. That's no reason to assume it'll get better and it's no reason to assume that it won't get better. The point is that it CAN get better.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby topshelf on Thu May 15, 2014 1:42 pm

Ray Shero has attempted to bring in a top-tier winger for Sid since he arrived in Pittsburgh.

The biggest reason I'm glad that Shero is our GM is that he was never willing to over-pay for said winger. If he was to over-pay for a guy like Parise, or over-trade for someone else, he'd be receiving the same treatment now.

I personally feel that Shero is one of the best GM's in the league and he's done his best to give us the best possible team. It's on BOTH the coaches and the players to produce.
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby slappybrown on Thu May 15, 2014 1:46 pm

@sil, I guess I don't understand what your ultimate point is then, but ok, I think we...either agree or disagree lol
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Re: The Case Against Rejean Shero

Postby DelPen on Thu May 15, 2014 2:11 pm

Patrick Kane is playing with Handzus and Saad. I'm not sure right now that's better than Kunitz-Dupuis or Neal-Jokinen.
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