Starkey Takes Sid to Task

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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby IanMoran on Mon May 19, 2014 10:26 am

Bathgate wrote:I may be the only one saying this, but I’m bracing myself for some bad news about Crosby’s health, and I’m not talking about any recent hockey injury except as possibly related to the head injuries he suffered in previous years (concussion and broken jaw). Nothing else is sufficient to explain the dramatic and obvious decline in all his hockey skills during the last third of the regular season and the playoffs. The much-discussed bad body language in the playoffs might have been reactions to his personal shock and bewilderment that he could not execute at levels anywhere near to what he is accustomed.

Meh, I think it was just fatigue / not accustomed to this much demand on body:
Including Olympics, playoffs

2014: 99 GP
2013: 50 GP
2012: 28 GP
2011: 41 GP

Its been awhile since he’s had to endure that many games. . . Just my theory though
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Mon May 19, 2014 10:31 am

Bathgate wrote:I may be the only one saying this, but I’m bracing myself for some bad news about Crosby’s health, and I’m not talking about any recent hockey injury except as possibly related to the head injuries he suffered in previous years (concussion and broken jaw). Nothing else is sufficient to explain the dramatic and obvious decline in all his hockey skills during the last third of the regular season and the playoffs. The much-discussed bad body language in the playoffs might have been reactions to his personal shock and bewilderment that he could not execute at levels anywhere near to what he is accustomed.


When is this injury excuse going to die? There is simply no evidence that he was injured. None.

Reporters are around the team all the time and during the playoffs its not just Tom McMillan's pets like Rossi and Molinari. Someone would have noticed had he been walking with a limp or had a wrist or hand injury. Maybe a shoulder or back issue could have remained concealed but someone would have leaked it by now, if for no other reason than Pens/Crosby pr.

Are you implying he played through a concussion??? Maybe PTSD after the beating Dubinsky inflicted on him in round 1? :face:
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby shmenguin on Mon May 19, 2014 10:33 am

IanMoran wrote:But, because Crosby didn’t produce as well in last 1, we discount the other 3. (Granted, I’m not denying Babcock’s ability for matchup play in playoffs may change things)


I don't include anything up until the 09 wings because there were no problems then. He was fantastic across the board. Then the trend started


if you think this is cherry picking, you really have some issues with what that means. it would be like saying the team isn't allowed to fire bylsma or shero because of their successes up to a certain point.

IanMoran wrote:Ottawa..18th in GA/G
Habs.. 12th


i'm glad their stats were reasonably similar. it's a good illustration of what actually makes a team competitive, and how you can't find it in a simple look-up.

IanMoran wrote:Flyers 20th in GA/G
..Yea, I think its fair to say the Flyers weren't great this year.


no one has any complaints with his offense in this series. let me know if you were satisfied with his overall performance, though. i suspect you won't actually answer that. or you'll ignore what everyone else knows to be the story of that series. it's not always his box score that's the issue.

IanMoran wrote:Ottawa 2nd in GA/ G (Easy to laugh at now, but they were a great defensive team that season, Crosby tore them apart)


crosby was great. everyone was great. if you want to put this in the "pro" column, go for it. there are plenty of arguments to be made about the quality of that senators team, but if you want to call them a good team, all it does is give him one good series without any caveats in the last 5 years.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby shmenguin on Mon May 19, 2014 10:40 am

"I'm just stepping away from this / done with this thread"

and why do people always say this and then hang around for a response that they know they'll reply to?
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby pittsoccer33 on Mon May 19, 2014 10:42 am

For the last 5 or so years I think any team that really forced defense on the Penguins was able to contain Sid and usually Malkin too. Trapping, jamming up the red line, and forcing them into the middle of the ice and away from the boards.

They did everything possible to get their top defense pairng and best defensive center out there to antagonize him.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Bathgate on Mon May 19, 2014 10:48 am

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:
Bathgate wrote:I may be the only one saying this, but I’m bracing myself for some bad news about Crosby’s health, and I’m not talking about any recent hockey injury except as possibly related to the head injuries he suffered in previous years (concussion and broken jaw). Nothing else is sufficient to explain the dramatic and obvious decline in all his hockey skills during the last third of the regular season and the playoffs. The much-discussed bad body language in the playoffs might have been reactions to his personal shock and bewilderment that he could not execute at levels anywhere near to what he is accustomed.


When is this injury excuse going to die? There is simply no evidence that he was injured. None.

Reporters are around the team all the time and during the playoffs its not just Tom McMillan's pets like Rossi and Molinari. Someone would have noticed had he been walking with a limp or had a wrist or hand injury. Maybe a shoulder or back issue could have remained concealed but someone would have leaked it by now, if for no other reason than Pens/Crosby pr.

Are you implying he played through a concussion??? Maybe PTSD after the beating Dubinsky inflicted on him in round 1? :face:


I'm talking about something possibly degenerative to the brain and/or central nervous system, something yet to be diagnosed, something that could even be permanent (or maybe not), and something that robs a person of some hand-eye coordination and/or vision (on-ice hockey situation vision not eyesight vision).
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby columbia on Mon May 19, 2014 10:49 am

Ok
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby penny lane on Mon May 19, 2014 10:54 am

pittsoccer33 wrote:For the last 5 or so years I think any team that really forced defense on the Penguins was able to contain Sid and usually Malkin too. Trapping, jamming up the red line, and forcing them into the middle of the ice and away from the boards.

They did everything possible to get their top defense pairng and best defensive center out there to antagonize him.


Amazing how the opponent's always had a favorable match up ; home or away.

The pens got scoring from sutter/jussi 1st series. Nothing at all from their 1 supposed scoring winger.
Stop the power play = finish the pens.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Mon May 19, 2014 10:55 am

Bathgate wrote:
Chirpin' Grinder wrote:
Bathgate wrote:I may be the only one saying this, but I’m bracing myself for some bad news about Crosby’s health, and I’m not talking about any recent hockey injury except as possibly related to the head injuries he suffered in previous years (concussion and broken jaw). Nothing else is sufficient to explain the dramatic and obvious decline in all his hockey skills during the last third of the regular season and the playoffs. The much-discussed bad body language in the playoffs might have been reactions to his personal shock and bewilderment that he could not execute at levels anywhere near to what he is accustomed.


When is this injury excuse going to die? There is simply no evidence that he was injured. None.

Reporters are around the team all the time and during the playoffs its not just Tom McMillan's pets like Rossi and Molinari. Someone would have noticed had he been walking with a limp or had a wrist or hand injury. Maybe a shoulder or back issue could have remained concealed but someone would have leaked it by now, if for no other reason than Pens/Crosby pr.

Are you implying he played through a concussion??? Maybe PTSD after the beating Dubinsky inflicted on him in round 1? :face:


I'm talking about something possibly degenerative to the brain and/or central nervous system, something yet to be diagnosed, something that could even be permanent (or maybe not), and something that robs a person of some hand-eye coordination and/or vision (on-ice hockey situation vision not eyesight vision).


And you think it just started to effect him, coincidentally to be sure, when the regular season ended? :evil:

Crosby got beaten up and shut down. Period. He wasn't and isn't injured. In fact he is on record specifically saying that this was the best he felt going into the playoffs in a long, long time.

The team around him was soft, the opposition recognized that and went at #87 hard. The Pens had no response as a team and Sid subsequently surrendered.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby IanMoran on Mon May 19, 2014 10:59 am

You, in 2014 on the Habs
i'm glad their stats were reasonably similar. it's a good illustration of what actually makes a team competitive, and how you can't find it in a simple look-up.


On the Habs thing:
Once again, its easy to go back now that it didn't go well and paint the Habs as a tough team since the Pens didn't do well.. No one was afraid of them at all when the series started. Then after our series, Philly beat them in 5 games out scoring them 17-7 (and that's including a Habs 5-1 win). We, as Pittsburgh fans, remember these teams as so much tougher because they defeated us. Its not really even about how tough they were though, just that I couldn't be more confident that if the Pens beat Habs / Crosby produced you would easily chalk this up as one of those "weak" teams.

Actually, I just found proof that YOUR opinion suddenly changed/ you would have chalked them up as a weak team. Hence the argument that this is a cherrypicking exercise

April 25, 2010 Schmenguin wrote:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45550&p=1290794#p1290794
montreal is tiny and soff. they aren't a team made for the playoffs. it's amazing how the caps have struggled against them.

so i'd like them to play montreal, but i think they'll play boston. washington will play philly. but i don't really have a huge preference. none of those teams are real "stay aways".

shmenguin wrote:all it does is give him one good series without any caveats in the last 5 years.

If this is how you feel, there's just no middle ground. I'd take Crosby over any player in the NHL heading into the playoffs. To paint him as ineffective in them for 5 years is just something I can't really comprehend.

"I'm just stepping away from this / done with this thread"

I said this when I felt it was leaning towards semi-personal jabs, which is really pretty silly on an internet message board so I was just going to be done with it.. then I looked back and realized I probably initiated it. I apologized and then just focused on the actual arguments
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby rgj on Mon May 19, 2014 11:01 am

"....and Sid subsequently surrendered."

So, Crosby QUIT??
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby shmenguin on Mon May 19, 2014 11:06 am

IanMoran wrote:Actually, I just found proof that YOUR opinion suddenly changed/ you would have chalked them up as a weak team. Hence the argument that this is a cherrypicking exercise

April 25, 2010 Schmenguin wrote:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45550&p=1290794#p1290794
montreal is tiny and soff. they aren't a team made for the playoffs. it's amazing how the caps have struggled against them.

so i'd like them to play montreal, but i think they'll play boston. washington will play philly. but i don't really have a huge preference. none of those teams are real "stay aways".


good god. you're serious with this? my opinion changed on a team i knew little about going in after they beat us in 7 games and we were exposed as not being very good. the horror. i have no one to blame but myself for getting into this. i've been down this path with you before.

i'll make it easy. i'm bowing out. you can even have the last word if you want.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Bathgate on Mon May 19, 2014 11:10 am

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:
Bathgate wrote:
Chirpin' Grinder wrote:
Bathgate wrote:I may be the only one saying this, but I’m bracing myself for some bad news about Crosby’s health, and I’m not talking about any recent hockey injury except as possibly related to the head injuries he suffered in previous years (concussion and broken jaw). Nothing else is sufficient to explain the dramatic and obvious decline in all his hockey skills during the last third of the regular season and the playoffs. The much-discussed bad body language in the playoffs might have been reactions to his personal shock and bewilderment that he could not execute at levels anywhere near to what he is accustomed.


When is this injury excuse going to die? There is simply no evidence that he was injured. None.

Reporters are around the team all the time and during the playoffs its not just Tom McMillan's pets like Rossi and Molinari. Someone would have noticed had he been walking with a limp or had a wrist or hand injury. Maybe a shoulder or back issue could have remained concealed but someone would have leaked it by now, if for no other reason than Pens/Crosby pr.

Are you implying he played through a concussion??? Maybe PTSD after the beating Dubinsky inflicted on him in round 1? :face:


I'm talking about something possibly degenerative to the brain and/or central nervous system, something yet to be diagnosed, something that could even be permanent (or maybe not), and something that robs a person of some hand-eye coordination and/or vision (on-ice hockey situation vision not eyesight vision).


And you think it just started to effect him, coincidentally to be sure, when the regular season ended? :evil:

Crosby got beaten up and shut down. Period. He wasn't and isn't injured. In fact he is on record specifically saying that this was the best he felt going into the playoffs in a long, long time.

The team around him was soft, the opposition recognized that and went at #87 hard. The Pens had no response as a team and Sid subsequently surrendered.


Read something closely before you reply. Note I said his play had obviously declined during the last third of the regular season.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby IanMoran on Mon May 19, 2014 11:22 am

shmenguin wrote:
IanMoran wrote:Actually, I just found proof that YOUR opinion suddenly changed/ you would have chalked them up as a weak team. Hence the argument that this is a cherrypicking exercise

April 25, 2010 Schmenguin wrote:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45550&p=1290794#p1290794
montreal is tiny and soff. they aren't a team made for the playoffs. it's amazing how the caps have struggled against them.

so i'd like them to play montreal, but i think they'll play boston. washington will play philly. but i don't really have a huge preference. none of those teams are real "stay aways".


good god. you're serious with this? my opinion changed on a team i knew little about going in after they beat us in 7 games and we were exposed as not being very good. the horror. i have no one to blame but myself for getting into this. i've been down this path with you before.

i'll make it easy. i'm bowing out. you can even have the last word if you want.

I'll take that last word. The whole argument between us was, you saying Crosby can't do well against tough teams. Me arguing its a cherry pick argument / just picking every series the Pens struggled against and labeling them a tough team. I argued that any team Crosby / the Pens did well on you'd later remember as weak (outside of Detroit / Boston).... You disputed all of this... And now that I provided proof of you insulting a team the day before a series (even if didn't know much), what do you think you would have said about them if Crosby did well against them? I get a "good god" response because there's nothing else you could have really said other than conceded.

Also, the continued personal jabs are always a nice touch with you. I don't think I've ever got into an argument with anyone from LGP like this other than with you so I guess I should have known better as well
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Mon May 19, 2014 11:44 am

Bathgate wrote:
Chirpin' Grinder wrote:
Bathgate wrote:
Chirpin' Grinder wrote:
Bathgate wrote:I may be the only one saying this, but I’m bracing myself for some bad news about Crosby’s health, and I’m not talking about any recent hockey injury except as possibly related to the head injuries he suffered in previous years (concussion and broken jaw). Nothing else is sufficient to explain the dramatic and obvious decline in all his hockey skills during the last third of the regular season and the playoffs. The much-discussed bad body language in the playoffs might have been reactions to his personal shock and bewilderment that he could not execute at levels anywhere near to what he is accustomed.


When is this injury excuse going to die? There is simply no evidence that he was injured. None.

Reporters are around the team all the time and during the playoffs its not just Tom McMillan's pets like Rossi and Molinari. Someone would have noticed had he been walking with a limp or had a wrist or hand injury. Maybe a shoulder or back issue could have remained concealed but someone would have leaked it by now, if for no other reason than Pens/Crosby pr.

Are you implying he played through a concussion??? Maybe PTSD after the beating Dubinsky inflicted on him in round 1? :face:


I'm talking about something possibly degenerative to the brain and/or central nervous system, something yet to be diagnosed, something that could even be permanent (or maybe not), and something that robs a person of some hand-eye coordination and/or vision (on-ice hockey situation vision not eyesight vision).


And you think it just started to effect him, coincidentally to be sure, when the regular season ended? :evil:

Crosby got beaten up and shut down. Period. He wasn't and isn't injured. In fact he is on record specifically saying that this was the best he felt going into the playoffs in a long, long time.

The team around him was soft, the opposition recognized that and went at #87 hard. The Pens had no response as a team and Sid subsequently surrendered.


Read something closely before you reply. Note I said his play had obviously declined during the last third of the regular season.


Got it. Perhaps those evil Ruskies slipped him some polonium in Sochi??

The entire team was pretty bad after the olympics, which is why many were calling for Shero to act regarding Bylsma back then.

It is entirely possible that after playing under Babcock, Sid could no longer abide DB's incompetence. That, combined with the abuse he was suffering and the team's lack of response may have caused Sid to give up. It's inexcusable, but it seems more likely than a degenerative brain and/or central nervous system disorder, in my humble opinion.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby pens9192 on Mon May 19, 2014 12:05 pm

I thought the column was fine. It is his opinion and media in other towns are far more critical on sports teams and star players than here in Pittsburgh. How many times have we seen complaints that the media here is too soff? Imagine if Sid played for the Rags and had this disappearing act. He would be (still) getting reamed in the New York media for it.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Lesky on Mon May 19, 2014 1:03 pm

Sid is happy now = vacation. Did anybody seriously think he wanted to play 2 more rounds or go to the worlds the way he conducted himself/body language?
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Desiato on Mon May 19, 2014 1:22 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:With how good Sid is it's expected that he should dominate regardless.


This is the problem. False expectations. That hasn't been true of NHL star for the entirety of their career. See my account of Mario's last few years in the playoffs.

No one has come up with an objective argument that can show me all the star NHL players doing better in the playoffs than Sid overall. They all struggle! But no, let's ignore the legwork when sabotaging the reputation of Sidney Crosby on LGP. Because it's another ugly mob scene here, so why bother?

The Pens roster, by most reasonable accounts here, was recognized as flawed all season. But somehow it's all on Sid. Somehow, the past few years are all on Sid -- Despite the fact he and Geno put up pretty much exactly the same numbers.

Maybe the Pens just weren't good enough? Has that crossed any of your revisionist minds? b-b-but they were one win away!! IF ONLY SID HAD PLAYED BETTER! -- See every freaking 7 game series.

No composure. No loyalty. Just "wah, wah, no pens hockey for me." You guys don't deserve the ride this team has had as evidenced by your clear lack of appreciation for it.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby penmyst on Mon May 19, 2014 2:42 pm

Desiato wrote:You guys don't deserve the ride this team has had as evidenced by your clear lack of appreciation for it.


Which ride would that be? The one filled with playoff debacles over the last 5 years? Each more spectacular than the last?
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Desiato on Mon May 19, 2014 2:56 pm

- 8 consecutive seasons in the playoffs
- 2 eastern titles
- 1 stanley cup
- legitimate contender status nearly every year
- regular season success (I like watching hockey. I like big plays. Winning in the regular season is not irrelevant.)
- scoring titles (adds to the fan experience, at least to me)
- MVPs (see above)
- a team with some of the best players in the world; a top 5 that, at times, would challenge a national team

I could go on. As a fan, these are all things to appreciate. Most fans who stick to one team never get all of this. We take it for granted. In part because it's the second serving. Mario, Jagr, Sid, Geno + supporting all stars. Pens fans are lucky.

Which ride would that be..... petulant Pens fans call Pens petulant.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Lt. Dish on Mon May 19, 2014 3:15 pm

Just an out-of-left-field question: What makes this most recent 5-year spell of playoff futility (read: not winning the Cup), amidst high expectations while having the 2 best players in the world, worse than that from 1993-97?

A. Social media
B. the Internet
C. Hyperbole obfuscating perspective
D. The fall of sports journalism and the corresponding rise in sports opiniotainment
E. All of the above


We survived 1993-97. (We even survived 4 more years of playoff futility after that, although expectations were much lower, and then there was the dying alive business.)

How did we do this? Because fans and media then seemed to have more perspective. They weren't any more willing to settle for mediocrity than we are today. But they seemed to have perspective and found ways to be positive despite the fact that the (a) league had no cap and (b) Pens didn't have ownership we could count on to make necessary changes in a smart, systematic manner.

This is a frustrating time, but it's also an exciting time. The team is making moves toward positive change. We have solid ownership who wants to win and will put in the money to do so. It's useless to lament what could've been over the past 5 years because those years are gone; we won't get them back. If you think that this franchise is really in ruins and the face of the franchise is at the heart of it, then I ask you to stop and think. Please, just stop and think.

It's time to move on to 2014-15. I think we can count on Sid getting it together and coming back to start the charge anew. He should be able to count on us to be behind him. That's not being Pollyanna. That's not settling. That's supporting your guys.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby TrueNorth on Mon May 19, 2014 6:48 pm

Thanks for providing some perspective, Dish. I have only been following the Pens since the fall of 2010, so I don’t know the team’s history or how fans have reacted in the past when their stars have failed to live up to expectations. I was happy to learn that it hasn’t always been this bad and that there actually was some perspective and some resilience back then. It would be great to get back to that, but, as you quite rightly point out, we are living in a different time and a different age. (By the way, I selected “E” on your multiple choice question.)

As for Sid, I truly believe he is suffering from a serious case of burnout. I think a summer of rest and relaxation is just what he needs to recharge his batteries and restore his energy levels, and I, too, expect him to come back fully invigorated and ready to play like the superstar that he is.

I’m not someone who thrives on change, I tend to like the familiar, but this team does need a shake-up. I’m actually quite excited to see what changes are in store and what the Pens will look like when training camp opens in the fall. This could be a very exciting season indeed.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Lt. Dish on Mon May 19, 2014 8:20 pm

TrueNorth wrote:Thanks for providing some perspective, Dish. I have only been following the Pens since the fall of 2010, so I don’t know the team’s history or how fans have reacted in the past when their stars have failed to live up to expectations. I was happy to learn that it hasn’t always been this bad and that there actually was some perspective and some resilience back then. It would be great to get back to that, but, as you quite rightly point out, we are living in a different time and a different age. (By the way, I selected “E” on your multiple choice question.)

As for Sid, I truly believe he is suffering from a serious case of burnout. I think a summer of rest and relaxation is just what he needs to recharge his batteries and restore his energy levels, and I, too, expect him to come back fully invigorated and ready to play like the superstar that he is.

I’m not someone who thrives on change, I tend to like the familiar, but this team does need a shake-up. I’m actually quite excited to see what changes are in store and what the Pens will look like when training camp opens in the fall. This could be a very exciting season indeed.


TN, clearly, this sucks, and I swear to the board and to the hockey gods that I'm not trying to preach. We just haven't gotten as much glory as we would've liked. Well, since the 2004 lockout, who, aside from Chicago, has? We'll win it again, and we'll do so sooner rather than later.

We joke about "Sidbot," but I think the burnout theory has a lot of merit. I don't believe he's immune from criticism. But no one can convince me that this guy, whom we've seen since he was 18 (much earller for our Rimouski and Q fans here) would quit on anyone or anything.

And Desiato alludes to a good point about how the city and fans can add to the burnout factor by making the environment untenable. Some may sarcastically say "boo hoo," but I don't care. I don't ever want to see it happen here.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby rgj on Mon May 19, 2014 11:39 pm

Burnout? Hmmmm.

If that's the case, then the NHL has no business suspending their season or allowing contracted players to participate in the Olympics. I am sure there are plenty of NHL owners who would voluntarily "suspend" salaries paid to their players who take an Olympic hiatus.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Lt. Dish on Tue May 20, 2014 1:21 am

rgj wrote:Burnout? Hmmmm.

If that's the case, then the NHL has no business suspending their season or allowing contracted players to participate in the Olympics. I am sure there are plenty of NHL owners who would voluntarily "suspend" salaries paid to their players who take an Olympic hiatus.


Absolutely. Many owners have voiced their preference not to send their players to the Olympics; the players themselves want to go.
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