Starkey Takes Sid to Task

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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby penmyst on Tue May 20, 2014 1:22 am

How is it that Crosby, and the Pens, are affected by this "burnout" while the 4 remaining teams were not?

I mean, it's not as if those other teams are special. Or are they?

I've been watching Pens hockey since the late 80s. I remember the early days of Lemieux, and the Pens stinking. I can assure you, the Pens nation was apoplectic when the Pens pissed away their dynasty starting with the failure at NYI. And when they lost to Fla in 96, a much much inferior team, there were plenty of jumpers ready to end it all.

To say we are lucky as fans, related to the league overall? Sure. But along with great players come great expectations. When making the playoffs is all but assured, as it has been with THIS current concoction of Pens, then expectations are much different than the rest of the league.

So kindly, do not tell me I'm petulant or that I'm some Johnny-come-lately. I've seen it all before.

That's why I don't coddle millionaire athletes nor billionaire owners. Losing in the playoffs isn't the reason to be upset with your team. Losing to inferior opponents, being outworked, outhustled, outplayed, outcoached, and generally out-desired IS a reason to be upset with them. From the nacho guy all the way up to ownership.

Right now, it's all still up in the air. But if HCDB remains, then do not expect much to change. Going to be a **** then. You think you've seen petulant?
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby TrueNorth on Tue May 20, 2014 1:23 am

Burnout isn’t caused by one event like the Olympics. It’s a condition that develops over time and is a result of chronic stress or overwork. In Sid’s case, the Olympics would be just one of several stressors impinging on him this past season and draining his energy and his coping resources. This was an unusual year where the demands on him were excessive--and that’s only counting the ones we know about. While, obviously, he has excellent coping skills, even he has a breaking point. Eventually, the well runs dry.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Lesky on Tue May 20, 2014 11:45 am

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:
RxBandit66 wrote:I understand the comments about all the interference, cross checking, etc that is not being called...but nothing explains why Crosby cannot score and makes such terrible decisions on the power play.

That and the fact that he simply did not want the puck on his stick were most indicative that his effort was poor and that he just wanted it to be over.


To me this is the biggest concern, the team captain can not send out those signals no matter what!

Who is going to speak to Sid about that?

When the captain looks like he wants to be eliminated or could care less you have a HUGE problem on your hands!
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby TrueNorth on Tue May 20, 2014 12:35 pm

Lesky wrote:
Chirpin' Grinder wrote:
RxBandit66 wrote:I understand the comments about all the interference, cross checking, etc that is not being called...but nothing explains why Crosby cannot score and makes such terrible decisions on the power play.

That and the fact that he simply did not want the puck on his stick were most indicative that his effort was poor and that he just wanted it to be over.


To me this is the biggest concern, the team captain can not send out those signals no matter what!

Who is going to speak to Sid about that?

When the captain looks like he wants to be eliminated or could care less you have a HUGE problem on your hands!


I’m not going to get on your case, Lesky, because it’s clear from your statement that you, and many others, simply don’t understand how some conditions can absolutely affect behaviour and rob a person of the ability to manage their emotions and perform what for them should be the simplest of tasks. If fact, these are symptoms of the disorder and their very presence is what helps determine the diagnosis.

I’ve already offered a theory that I think might explain Sid’s performance and his demeanour in these playoffs, so there’s no need to spell it out again. At this point, what I find fascinating and bewildering is the unwillingness on the part of some people to even entertain the notion that his behaviour and performance might be attributable to something other than a flat out quitting on his team. Why is that?
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby penny lane on Tue May 20, 2014 12:55 pm

The only other times I have seen Sid played as he did in the play-offs was in the 2011 winter classic and
after Hedman compounded the concussion v tampa bay. I hope that Sidney would not take risks playing with a concussion. When James Neal took the ice for a game with concussion symptoms , that is similar to how Sid played against the rangers. In a fog, delayed reactions. Burnout /stress; it doesn't happen all at once. Sid earned an art ross and most likely a Hart trophy this year. My hope is Sid is away on the beach somewhere with a drink that came with an umbrella . :D

Sid, like Blysma never comes out and says " this was on me." People just want you to be real with them. Last year, Evgeni said he was his fault/reason the pens lost to boston.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby TrueNorth on Tue May 20, 2014 2:42 pm

penny lane wrote:The only other times I have seen Sid played as he did in the play-offs was in the 2011 winter classic and
after Hedman compounded the concussion v tampa bay. I hope that Sidney would not take risks playing with a concussion. When James Neal took the ice for a game with concussion symptoms , that is similar to how Sid played against the rangers. In a fog, delayed reactions. Burnout /stress; it doesn't happen all at once. Sid earned an art ross and most likely a Hart trophy this year. My hope is Sid is away on the beach somewhere with a drink that came with an umbrella . :D

Sid, like Blysma never comes out and says " this was on me." People just want you to be real with them. Last year, Evgeni said he was his fault/reason the pens lost to boston.



I appreciate your response, Penny, and I understand what you are saying.

I, too, hope that Sid wasn’t playing through concussion symptoms, and I like to think that he’s smarter than that. I personally think that burnout is more likely, but who really knows? He started out on fire last year playing like the Sid we know and have come to expect. But early in the new year, his game seemed off, and that continued, really, throughout the rest of the season, culminating in his mind boggling performance during the playoffs. Still, he was able to win the Art Ross, based largely on the numbers he put up during the first half of the season, and I find that amazing. Somehow, he still found ways to contribute, to help his team, even though he, clearly, was starting to experience difficulties.

Your point about Geno is well taken and instructive. One of the things I love the most about him is the fact that he wears his heart on his sleeve. I find that very endearing. Sid is an entirely different personality. For the most part, certainly when he’s off the ice, he’s very closed emotionally, and not one to put his feelings out there. This doesn’t mean, of course, that he doesn’t care, or that he doesn’t feel responsible for letting his team down. I don’t doubt for a moment that he cares, and cares deeply, and this would simply be another stressor contributing to his overall stress level.

We’ll never know how the fans would have responded had he been more open, more willing to share his feelings and take responsibility for the team’s poor playoff performance. Maybe there wouldn’t have been such a strong negative reaction to him, such an overwhelming denouncement. Sid can’t change his personality, but to the extent that his emotional containment is more a coping mechanism than a personality trait, change is possible. Being able to express his feelings more openly would benefit him personally, and also would make it easier for fans to embrace him and grant him a little more slack when things go south.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby BuckintheLou on Tue May 20, 2014 3:42 pm

A lot of valid points made all the way around in the article and your posts.

Fact is, we’re hurt ‘cause our Pens failed to perform up to their potential. Again. And there’s the root of our woes. Because they’ve been eliminated by lower seeds in the past few years, we feel like we have to know the reason why. There has to be an answer for our pain. To Starkey, Sid’s failure to fabricate points in another post-season is the problem. I don’t believe there’s a single reason for the early departure. (With the exception that the other team won 4 out of 7.) Yep, another 3-1 series lead down the crapper.

Starkey says it’s Sid’s fault. His title: “Crosby led Penguins down drain”.
Y’all know better than that. You’re an educated bunch. ONE reason!? One reason and that reason is Sid? Probably not. He’s ‘called out’ our beloved Sid and some take offense. Others say “Oh, this is what writers do” and blow it off, and some say that Starkey’s hit the nail on the head.

Admittedly, Starkey makes several good points; I’d agree that Sid was sub-par. But I’d also agree that he spent the last month getting beat, mugged and held onto as well. Pretty hard to be effective when this badly handicapped. After a while, the frustration sets in and we’re watching a repeat of yesteryear, although to a slightly lesser extent. Sure ‘The Kid’ could stand to mature a little and I’d say he’s making progress. Slowly. But progress nonetheless.

Whatever your stance on the article, I’m certain that Sid alone is not at fault for the early tee times.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby penmyst on Tue May 20, 2014 7:29 pm

No, it's not all Crosby's fault. There's a big fat scapegoat that stands behind him on the bench all game long who probably deserves more blame.

But Crosby is the "leader" of the team. The "C". That position carries not only privilege and accolades, but also responsibility to shoulder blame when things go wrong. He's the guy that gets to stand out there and take the proverbial whipping. He does an admirable job of it, being Sid-Bot and whatnot.

It's simply absurd to see the logic pretzels and excuse-manufacturing, right here in this very thread, for his failings this playoff year. He looked terrible out there. He did not play well. This is not a shining moment in his career.

Step back for a second and realize this is not a condemnation of Crosby's entire career or life. It's OK to say he stunk. I wholehearted expect better out of him. And will expect it next year, like always. Those are the crosses great players have to bear. He's no Joe Thornton at least.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Maestro on Tue May 20, 2014 8:46 pm

Crosby's star has been tarnished. The question now is, will it be able to regain its shine.

Regular season hero is not enough to be considered one of the best in a generation.

He needs to check himself and step it up in the playoffs next year.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Lt. Dish on Tue May 20, 2014 9:41 pm

We can't offer actual logic or excuses; offering an excuse is to offer an explanation, as in "here's why." We have no idea why Sid didn't play well. He just didn't, and maybe that's all there is to it. But that option seems unsatisfactory to many of us, so our concern and confusion compels us to kick around theories of what might have been going on. Nothing wrong with that, although it's proving to be futile. Oh, well, looking forward to next year.

penmyst, your comment about Joe Thornton made me smile. Yes, indeed, Sid's no Joe Thornton.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby penmyst on Wed May 21, 2014 8:28 pm

Lt. Dish wrote:penmyst, your comment about Joe Thornton made me smile. Yes, indeed, Sid's no Joe Thornton.


I don't intend to rip on Joe. I feel bad for him because he's a very talented player that simply doesn't seem to get it done come crunch time. Guys like that get labelled, and it's hard to shake. Since they are such talents, it is expected that they perform big in big games. When they don't, or when their teams come up short time and again.. they soak the blame.

Nobody is blaming Brian Gibbons for the Pens' failure this year.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Desiato on Wed May 21, 2014 8:56 pm

Blame whoever you want for whatever you want, just stop revising history. Sid has already come up huge in big moments on big stages.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby AIS31 on Thu May 22, 2014 11:48 pm

This is my first post as I felt compelled to say something. I don't have inside knowledge, however I think that the possibility of some physical ailment that is not an acute injury is real for Crosby. Last year had his play dropped off, and that's the real issue, not a lack of scoring, I would have questioned his desire or preparation. I watched the Olympics and the play-offs (and not a lot in between) and he looks to me not like he isn't trying but like he can't try. I am a goalie in Europe, and a Pens fan, (I am not MAF! He's a whole other conversation) and I play at a pretty decent level. I'm 27 and I've always been known as quick and a very hard worker probably my defining characteristics. This season I started out well, my new team liked me, I felt normal. Then about a month is my back started hurting (our off ice was insane for in season) my groin was sore. I was tired. I kept pushing. I got worse. My reflexes were awful. I worked harder. I got worse. I got traded and the new team took one look at me in practice and said what the hell is wrong with you. I had managed to have a decent game every couple starts up until then. I said I wasn't hurt because I didn't percieve it was "being hurt." I thought I'd gone insane. The last game I played before being sat for an extended amount of time was like a nightmare, although we did win somehow. I couldn't do what my brain said to do. I'm sure I looked lazy. I probably looked like I wanted to get off the ice - mostly because I did. I had no confidence in my ability to stop the puck. The outside doctor's explanation was that my back was f'ed and my nervous system had been totally overloaded. Had I been in the NHL I'm sure I'd have been ripped apart in the media, as it was I just got some flack from fans for dogging it.

I understand that athletes get paid to perform, but I think that the notion that something is wrong with Crosby has some credence. Or maybe he's a coach killer, but it didn't look like that to me. The fact that he could pull it together for a good game a couple times doesn't change my mind. I don't know what's wrong but as someone who used to question effort, this past season made me re-think a lot of stuff.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sat May 24, 2014 5:27 pm

Desiato wrote:Blame whoever you want for whatever you want, just stop revising history. Sid has already come up huge in big moments on big stages.


Past tense...

Sadly, sports if very much a "what have you done for me lately" world and Sid hasn't come up big in long time.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Durbano on Sun May 25, 2014 2:34 pm

AIS31, interesting post, thanks.

Sorry if this was posted elsewhere. Ron Cook's column from Saturday about sid:

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/ron-cook/2014/05/25/Ron-Cook-Attacks-on-Sidney-Crosby-are-misguided-silly/stories/201405250146

Basically says of course he played lousy but don't make more of it than that.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Great58 on Tue May 27, 2014 1:17 pm

Lt. Dish wrote:
TrueNorth wrote:Thanks for providing some perspective, Dish. I have only been following the Pens since the fall of 2010, so I don’t know the team’s history or how fans have reacted in the past when their stars have failed to live up to expectations. I was happy to learn that it hasn’t always been this bad and that there actually was some perspective and some resilience back then. It would be great to get back to that, but, as you quite rightly point out, we are living in a different time and a different age. (By the way, I selected “E” on your multiple choice question.)

As for Sid, I truly believe he is suffering from a serious case of burnout. I think a summer of rest and relaxation is just what he needs to recharge his batteries and restore his energy levels, and I, too, expect him to come back fully invigorated and ready to play like the superstar that he is.

I’m not someone who thrives on change, I tend to like the familiar, but this team does need a shake-up. I’m actually quite excited to see what changes are in store and what the Pens will look like when training camp opens in the fall. This could be a very exciting season indeed.


TN, clearly, this sucks, and I swear to the board and to the hockey gods that I'm not trying to preach. We just haven't gotten as much glory as we would've liked. Well, since the 2004 lockout, who, aside from Chicago, has? We'll win it again, and we'll do so sooner rather than later.

We joke about "Sidbot," but I think the burnout theory has a lot of merit. I don't believe he's immune from criticism. But no one can convince me that this guy, whom we've seen since he was 18 (much earller for our Rimouski and Q fans here) would quit on anyone or anything.

And Desiato alludes to a good point about how the city and fans can add to the burnout factor by making the environment untenable. Some may sarcastically say "boo hoo," but I don't care. I don't ever want to see it happen here.

I think being Captain Canada was a huge responsibilty that took a lot out of Sid. He's such a lightning rod for criticism that he has to have multipoint nights to keep people from commenting negatively about his play. Toews has a scoring slump and people always prop him up with his solid defensive play. Last night I heard Kopitar's lack of scoring being turned into a credit to him for taking all the most difficult assignments, freeing Carter's line to easier pairings. Sid as the "best player in hockey" isn't often given these benefits, by the press or an international fan base. I've rearly heard Sid get praise or credit by the media for the little things in his game when he's not scoring. So yeah, I can see how emotional burnout would be very possible, making him overthink his game, try too hard, make dumb decisions and then cycle in frustration.

Time away from hockey would be a good thing for Sid, I almost think he cares TOO MUCH for his own good.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby tksmr2 on Tue May 27, 2014 1:48 pm

I don't buy this he was tired because if this or that. Take a better look at game #2 of the Rangers Series. He was outstanding in that game, and back to the way he should be playing. If he was tired, then why was he flying around banging, and crashing, driving to the net, taking players on one on one, etc. Henrik was the only reason he did not scored multiple goals in that game. If he plays like that just one more time this series, the Pens would have won the series IMO.. but he continued to coast around like he didn't care.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Lesky on Wed May 28, 2014 9:09 am

Durbano wrote:AIS31, interesting post, thanks.

Sorry if this was posted elsewhere. Ron Cook's column from Saturday about sid:

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/ron-cook/2014/05/25/Ron-Cook-Attacks-on-Sidney-Crosby-are-misguided-silly/stories/201405250146

Basically says of course he played lousy but don't make more of it than that.


I did not see the Crosby that hates to lose like Cook writes, I saw a Crosby that did not care if losing or not!
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