Starkey Takes Sid to Task

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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby IanMoran on Mon May 19, 2014 2:14 am

IanMoran wrote:
shmenguin wrote:How would you categorize Sid in the following series'? And I don't mean compared to some standard you've defined. Just in a vacuum

09 wings
10 habs
12 flyers
13 bruins
14 rangers

Don't bring any other players into it. I just want to know if you think he played at an acceptable level. And spare the cherry picking argument. It's the 5 most recent playoff years. And these are the competitive series'. They aren't laughers against some bush league Ottawa team or an islanders team playing without a goalie or a capitals team without a defense

I love this, this is absolutely beautifu, particularly the "spare the cherry picking argument"

NHL, ppg in NHL playoffs. All time leaders
1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Mark Messier
4. Bobby Orr
5. Mike Bossy
6. Sidney Crosby

Crosby is dang close to Messier, Orr, and Bossy (within 0.05 of all of them), so when you consider scoring eras as well... he's easily number 3

The 3rd most productive offensive player in NHL's playoff history is now a choker that can't produce in the playoffs...... Yea...... :shock:

Not a cherry pick? If Crosby did well against the Rags, Flyers, or Habs and the Pens rolled over those teams, you'd call them pushovers. But since those are the ones he struggled with, they aren't............... The truth of cherry picking those series? That list includes every series the Pens were eliminated in in the last 5 playoffs. So all those numbers say, if a team can control Crosby (the 3rd most productive playoff player ever), the Pens are doomed

Its just insanity that this crosby isn't clutch thing has so much steam.

It couldn't be more from the truth

Let's Cherry pick some more. Mario, after stanley cups (so only take out 1 series), in playoff eliminating series, his playoff PPG dropped .494 from his career playoff ppg. Crosby's drops .423 from his career playoff ppg. Hmmm, apparently limiting Mario was met with a similar fate... mario's a soft playoff choker as well I suppose
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby penmyst on Mon May 19, 2014 2:28 am

No need to cherry pick.

The last few severely disappointing, underperforming playoff failures for the Pens--- Crosby has been front and center leading the way in poor play. That is the cold hard truth.

There is no need to get into the psychoanalyzing about why. No need to unjustly malign him either... but also no need to be equally absurd in reaching for baloney reasons to explain it (as his defenders do).

The bottom line is that he's paid the most on the team, and these recent playoffs he has come up far short of producing the most. Topped by this year's piss-poor effort, made worse by playing like he didn't want to be out there. Calling him out on that should be required. Otherwise, it's Pens' Fanboy time.

Ripping Starkey for his article is petulant. Nothing he said was incorrect. He didn't grind any ridiculous axes. Is what he said somewhat redundant at this point? Perhaps. But he's a columnist and he's allowed to get his opinion "on the record". Attacking him for telling the truth isn't accomplishing anything.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby shmenguin on Mon May 19, 2014 6:32 am

Interesting how I didn't get an answer to a pretty simple question. Though I guess that's an answer in itself.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby columbia on Mon May 19, 2014 6:36 am

penmyst wrote:No need to cherry pick.

The last few severely disappointing, underperforming playoff failures for the Pens--- Crosby has been front and center leading the way in poor play. That is the cold hard truth.

There is no need to get into the psychoanalyzing about why. No need to unjustly malign him either... but also no need to be equally absurd in reaching for baloney reasons to explain it (as his defenders do).


Apparently we live in a world where pointing out the unpleasant truth IS maligning someone.
It's very strange.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby IanMoran on Mon May 19, 2014 7:03 am

shmenguin wrote:Interesting how I didn't get an answer to a pretty simple question. Though I guess that's an answer in itself.

Your claim of not cherry picking, was honestly the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen on lgp.........

To answer your question. I thought he played great in all those series - the rags / flyers one, but if you want.. I can cherry pick Mario / Gretzky 4-7 game samples as well

I'm just stepping away from this / done with this thread. People calling the 3rd most productive playoff player ever a choker then accusing others of not accepting reality just can't be reasoned with
Last edited by IanMoran on Mon May 19, 2014 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby shmenguin on Mon May 19, 2014 7:05 am

IanMoran wrote:
shmenguin wrote:Interesting how I didn't get an answer to a pretty simple question. Though I guess that's an answer in itself.

Your claim of not cherry picking, was honestly the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen on lgp.........

I'm just stepping away from this / done with this thread. People calling the 3rd most productive playoff player ever a choker then accusing others of not accepting reality just can't be reasoned with


I have no plans on reading your blog but I assume you just link to box scores and hockeyreference.com pages.

Also find where I called him a choker pls thx

And also thanks for not answering the simple question again. It's hammering things home pretty well.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby shmenguin on Mon May 19, 2014 7:06 am

Also find where I started blasting people for not accepting reality.

And I'll try to find a more ridiculous post on LGP. It'll be really hard, I'm sure.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby IanMoran on Mon May 19, 2014 7:07 am

shmenguin wrote:
IanMoran wrote:
shmenguin wrote:Interesting how I didn't get an answer to a pretty simple question. Though I guess that's an answer in itself.

Your claim of not cherry picking, was honestly the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen on lgp.........

I'm just stepping away from this / done with this thread. People calling the 3rd most productive playoff player ever a choker then accusing others of not accepting reality just can't be reasoned with


I have no plans on reading your blog but I assume you just link to box scores and hockeyreference.com pages.
Also find where I called him a choker pls thx

And also thanks for not answering the simple question again. It's hammering things home pretty well.

Edited with answer, thanks for insulting my blog without ever clicking on an article I ever wrote. Names Aaron Kearns, not saying my blogs great but I'll stand by anything I've written on it
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby IanMoran on Mon May 19, 2014 7:11 am

shmenguin wrote:Also find where I started blasting people for not accepting reality.

And I'll try to find a more ridiculous post on LGP. It'll be really hard, I'm sure.

I was speaking towards the general nature of this thread.

I find the tone of it a little bit much / strange tbh. That's a personal opinion. I feel like (probably largely because of me, this has gotten a little too personal). We disagree on something, if sports didn't come without opinions they wouldn't be nearly as fun. Sorry for my snappiness earlier
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby shmenguin on Mon May 19, 2014 7:24 am

People assume because a person takes this stance on Crosby that they aren't a fan and want him to fail. That's not the case. I don't include anything up until the 09 wings because there were no problems then. He was fantastic across the board. Then the trend started. So the only series' I'm leaving out are Ottawa, NYI, Ottawa and Columbus.

He wasn't good against Columbus despite his numbers. If that wasn't true, tell it to the rest of the hockey world.

He did well in the other 3 series. But that tells me he can still produce against poor competition. That's nice, but it doesn't prove that when he plays a competitive team, he performs adequately. I listed quality opponents. You can call it cherry picking but you'd be missing out on an important point while dismissing it.

As again, I have nothing against Sid, but if he doesn't perform, we lose every year. So it's important for him to figure things out.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby columbia on Mon May 19, 2014 7:28 am

Could this roster have gone all the way, if Geno and Crosby played at their best?
Possibly.

The fact that they would have to rely on that is one of the reasons that Shero is unemployed. If the new GM doesn't improve the balance of this team, we'll be having this conversation for years and it will probably be after yet another disappointing loss.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon May 19, 2014 7:35 am

With how good Sid is it's expected that he should dominate regardless. It's become obvious that in high pressure situations for whatever reason he shrinks rather than elevates. The Olympics and playoffs prove that. You can cite his PPG all you want but it's very clear when you watch him that he's reduced to an average player when teams game plan to stop him. Compounding that is Sid's frustration that becomes visible and manifests itself in terrible decision making like his constant drop passes to the other team or forcing really bad cross ice passes during power plays.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby littlemoonboot on Mon May 19, 2014 7:47 am

I actually didn't have a problem with the article, and up until now I've always given Sid the benefit of the doubt. I don't think it's ALL Crosby's fault, but he wasn't really held accountable all that much until recently.

What actually bothered me the most wasn't his poor play -- it was the way he shrugged it all off afterwards. I'm sure he wasn't happy about losing, but I have to wonder what happened to the guy who "never wanted to be in this photograph" again.

That said, I still believe this will pass and we'll see better things from Crosby as long as he stays healthy.
Last edited by littlemoonboot on Mon May 19, 2014 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby IanMoran on Mon May 19, 2014 7:50 am

shmenguin wrote:People assume because a person takes this stance on Crosby that they aren't a fan and want him to fail. That's not the case. I don't include anything up until the 09 wings because there were no problems then. He was fantastic across the board. Then the trend started. So the only series' I'm leaving out are Ottawa, NYI, Ottawa and Columbus.

He wasn't good against Columbus despite his numbers. If that wasn't true, tell it to the rest of the hockey world.

He did well in the other 3 series. But that tells me he can still produce against poor competition. That's nice, but it doesn't prove that when he plays a competitive team, he performs adequately. I listed quality opponents. You can call it cherry picking but you'd be missing out on an important point while dismissing it.

As again, I have nothing against Sid, but if he doesn't perform, we lose every year. So it's important for him to figure things out.

Crosby was not good these playoffs, I will offer no argument there. His playoff productivity all-time (which really is 3rd greatest) speaks for itself imo. I don't "box score link" like you assumed, but I feel like 1. that's such a huge defense in this instance (insulting a player in the playoffs, when statistically he's the 3rd most productive player ever 2. Its hard to recall / discuss the details of games played years ago. (I can write about the last series without referencing stats so heavily, but doing so from something from 2010 a little tougher)... I really do feel like the rest is cherry picking.. I'm sure you can find stretches / series in small game sample sizes in ANY players career in the playoffs... when you look at the body of work, its still quite impressive.

Here's another issue I have, you essentially diminish any series sid has been dominant or great in because "poor competition". Once again (speaking to stats only because its hard to recall some specific plays from years ago), 3rd most productive.. I'm sure every other NHL player hasn't played every series against the greatest team ever. I also feel like, if Crosby tears up a team, they're considered "lesser competition", if he doesn't they're considered tougher competition.... I'd imaging if he destroyed the rangers, flyers, and habs they'd suddenly be discounted as lesser competition. This makes the series you list imo even more of a selection bias.

Once again, what I derive from the series you list is that, if a team can limit Crosby they will almost always win (you listed every series in the last 5 years the Pens have been eliminated in). That' to me, just speaks volumes to how much the Pens rely on 1 player in recent years (once again, not counting this year). IMO, NO player, even the greatest in the world, will tear up every series in this era. IIRC, Toews (now suddenly regarded as super clutch) struggled for large periods during the Hawks last run, but the Hawks were deeper / had others step up. Also, in 2009, the Pens had Geno playing in God mode / MAF when the Wings limited Crosby. I feel like too many other years, any time a team could limit Crosby it was an automatic exit. I'll repeat, that I'm not counting this year, I feel like Crosby truly was subpar iin the 2014 playoffs

Also, my general response in this subject has less to do with any denial because I'm a Sid fanboy, and more my long-standing argument that "clutch" in all sports is 99% misconceptions over-exaggerated and also extreme small sample size. Its why I argue with everyone about Peyton Manning, Tony Romo constantly... You will probably disagreemee with this theory, but just letting you know my thoughts aren't derived from an "omg, how dare he criticize Crosby" background). I feel like while Crosby was subpar in the last 13 games, it probably matches similar random bad stretches for Crosby that if they occurred in November are soon forgotten. When you look at his 91 game sample size of playoffs its more telling.

Just letting you know how I'm drawing my conclusions, I understand your arguments though
Last edited by IanMoran on Mon May 19, 2014 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby IanMoran on Mon May 19, 2014 7:52 am

columbia wrote:Could this roster have gone all the way, if Geno and Crosby played at their best?
Possibly.

The fact that they would have to rely on that is one of the reasons that Shero is unemployed. If the new GM doesn't improve the balance of this team, we'll be having this conversation for years and it will probably be after yet another disappointing loss.

:thumb:
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby IanMoran on Mon May 19, 2014 7:53 am

Pavel Bure wrote:. You can cite his PPG all you want but it's very clear when you watch him that he's reduced to an average player when teams game plan to stop him.

He was reduced to an average player this year, but I think teams have gameplanned to stop him every series he's ever played in...
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby RxBandit66 on Mon May 19, 2014 8:20 am

I understand the comments about all the interference, cross checking, etc that is not being called...but nothing explains why Crosby cannot score and makes such terrible decisions on the power play.

His team has an extra skater on the ice, and he still cannot score. Someone explain that to me.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby sil on Mon May 19, 2014 8:21 am

Starkey is snarkey but liquor is quicker.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Humperdink on Mon May 19, 2014 8:22 am

columbia wrote:
penmyst wrote:No need to cherry pick.

The last few severely disappointing, underperforming playoff failures for the Pens--- Crosby has been front and center leading the way in poor play. That is the cold hard truth.

There is no need to get into the psychoanalyzing about why. No need to unjustly malign him either... but also no need to be equally absurd in reaching for baloney reasons to explain it (as his defenders do).


Apparently we live in a world where pointing out the unpleasant truth IS maligning someone.
It's very strange.


In today's world, disagreeing = hater. Someone's itty bitty feelings could get hurt.

Crosby's recent playoff performances have been weak, by his standards and every else's. This is not arguable.

It will be an interesting day when the Hart trophy is awarded. All three candidates are now teeing up on the back nine.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby shmenguin on Mon May 19, 2014 9:10 am

IanMoran wrote:I'd imaging if he destroyed the rangers, flyers, and habs they'd suddenly be discounted as lesser competition. This makes the series you list imo even more of a selection bias.


i think you know how bad of an argument this is. let me know if you need clarification.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Mon May 19, 2014 9:16 am

penmyst wrote:No need to cherry pick.

The last few severely disappointing, underperforming playoff failures for the Pens--- Crosby has been front and center leading the way in poor play. That is the cold hard truth.

There is no need to get into the psychoanalyzing about why. No need to unjustly malign him either... but also no need to be equally absurd in reaching for baloney reasons to explain it (as his defenders do).

The bottom line is that he's paid the most on the team, and these recent playoffs he has come up far short of producing the most. Topped by this year's piss-poor effort, made worse by playing like he didn't want to be out there. Calling him out on that should be required. Otherwise, it's Pens' Fanboy time.

Ripping Starkey for his article is petulant. Nothing he said was incorrect. He didn't grind any ridiculous axes. Is what he said somewhat redundant at this point? Perhaps. But he's a columnist and he's allowed to get his opinion "on the record". Attacking him for telling the truth isn't accomplishing anything.


Tremendous post. :thumb: :thumb:

There is nothing really controversial in Starkey's column. If anyone truly doubts that, I simply encourage you to re-watch game 7.

That perception only exists because Crosby is rarely criticized or called out. That is due to the fact that #87 is regularly tremendous, at least during the regular season. The pattern of playoff failure and coming up small, however, must be addressed.

This year's performance was particularly egregious because Sidney Crosby did not show his normal tenacity or will to win.

He did not want the puck on his stick. He didn't compete. He just wanted it to be over.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Mon May 19, 2014 9:27 am

columbia wrote:Could this roster have gone all the way, if Geno and Crosby played at their best?
Possibly.

The fact that they would have to rely on that is one of the reasons that Shero is unemployed. If the new GM doesn't improve the balance of this team, we'll be having this conversation for years and it will probably be after yet another disappointing loss.


Ironically, with the way that things unfolded in the conference, they could have made it to the finals.

Who knows, if they manage to win game 7 despite Sid, perhaps he awakens in the conference finals or is invigorated by a series with the Habs?

Had Shero recognized the blatantly obvious and replaced Disco with Martin after Craig Berube and the Flyers thoroughly dominated and embarrassed the Pens and DB in that home and home series, perhaps they would still be playing and Ray would still be employed?
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Mon May 19, 2014 9:34 am

RxBandit66 wrote:I understand the comments about all the interference, cross checking, etc that is not being called...but nothing explains why Crosby cannot score and makes such terrible decisions on the power play.

His team has an extra skater on the ice, and he still cannot score. Someone explain that to me.


Forget even the lack of scoring and look at all the atrocious goals against that he was on the ice for, including at the most crucial times of games. Including each of the OT goals against.

Scoring can slump even with effort. One thing any player can always control is how hard he back-checks. Sid is usually decent to good in this regard but throughout both series this spring he was down right Ovechkin-like.

That and the fact that he simply did not want the puck on his stick were most indicative that his effort was poor and that he just wanted it to be over.
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby IanMoran on Mon May 19, 2014 10:04 am

shmenguin wrote:
IanMoran wrote:I'd imaging if he destroyed the rangers, flyers, and habs they'd suddenly be discounted as lesser competition. This makes the series you list imo even more of a selection bias.


i think you know how bad of an argument this is. let me know if you need clarification.

2009
Flyers. . .16th in GA/G
Caps.. 19th in GA/ G
Carolina 8th in GA/G
Detroit 20th in GA/G
But, because Crosby didn’t produce as well in last 1, we discount the other 3. (Granted, I’m not denying Babcock’s ability for matchup play in playoffs may change things)

2010
Ottawa..18th in GA/G
Habs.. 12th

2012
Flyers 20th in GA/G
..Yea, I think its fair to say the Flyers weren't great this year.

2013
NYI 21st in GA/G
Ottawa 2nd in GA/ G (Easy to laugh at now, but they were a great defensive team that season, Crosby tore them apart)
Boston 3rd in GA/G

2014- No argument Sid stunk.

So by my count, the “good” Sid series against teams that shouldn’t count because it was easy to tear apart ranked 14th in team defense. The teams that Crosby struggled against in this time period ranked 13.75 in team defense. I mean, I just don’t know how you can’t say this isn’t a cherry pick every series Crosby struggled against argument. If point is, they lose when Sid doesn't produce, I'll agree.. Just my thoughts. . ..

I mean, I can see your point if you just mentioned Boston / Detroit, but I think Sid has done better against teams better than CBJ, NYR, MTL and Philly.. (2012), so I don't really see the "falls apart against tough competition). Leans more to cherrypicking imo
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Re: Starkey Takes Sid to Task

Postby Bathgate on Mon May 19, 2014 10:15 am

I may be the only one saying this, but I’m bracing myself for some bad news about Crosby’s health, and I’m not talking about any recent hockey injury except as possibly related to the head injuries he suffered in previous years (concussion and broken jaw). Nothing else is sufficient to explain the dramatic and obvious decline in all his hockey skills during the last third of the regular season and the playoffs. The much-discussed bad body language in the playoffs might have been reactions to his personal shock and bewilderment that he could not execute at levels anywhere near to what he is accustomed.
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