Theories re Bylsma being retained

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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby the riddler on Sun May 18, 2014 6:15 pm

Beveridge wrote:The Canucks front office just did what we did only a month earlier: fire GM first then coach went.

I don't see how people don't see this.


Buffalo fired both their GM and Coach this season. The Canucks situation is also a little different considering Torts was under contract for 4 more years. You might see why they would be hesitant to fire someone they're going to have to pay 8 million dollars to not work. If you think that Bylsma is definitely going to go then for what reason is he still there? Do you believe that he is an option to still be the coach? If he gets fired, then to me it looks very poor on the Penguins.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby Dan H on Sun May 18, 2014 6:16 pm

This doesn't address the original question, but a side issue: it's entirely possible that Mr. Bylsma is a good hockey coach, but a poor fit for the 2014-15 Penguins. It seems in sports there's a sort of cycle for head coaching. Guys come into a program, make some changes in systems, philosophy, players, or administration. If they're a positive set of changes, the on-field product improves, and the team wins for a while. After some time, though, something mysterious seems to happen to everybody. Maybe coaches get stuck in their grooves that have always worked for them, and things change around them so those grooves don't work as well anymore. Maybe players figure out the coach's shortcomings and somehow start subconsciously capitalizing on them by not working as hard in areas they know they won't get called on. Eventually, the team perceives a problem with coaching and makes a change. It doesn't necessarily mean the old coach was a lousy coach - just that he's not one of the very rare ones who can adapt his schtick to maintain good results over the years.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby Beveridge on Sun May 18, 2014 7:58 pm

When they won the cup and Shero said about making a team that was hard to play against, I just didn't see those words correspond with the signings. The guys who were hard to play against walked, and the ones easier to play against stayed. Pens let guys like Talbot, Cooke go and didn't really replace them. Staal was another one that was hard to play against but his leaving wasn't on the GM not getting the job done. Those hard to play against players were a critical piece in the system Bylsma runs.

Just like 2012 and 2013, I have no issues if they let Bylsma go or if they keep him. I don't see a ton of options out there (which doesn't mean there aren't - I'm certainly not a judge of coaching level). I think Bylsma was kept, for now, simply so that when the new GM comes in and can evaluate what he wants in a coach, Bylsma is still an option. I'm sure most will not agree with what I'm about to say, but out of all coaches available, including Bylsma, he is in the top 2-3. So it makes sense to keep him as an option for when the new GM comes in.

Now, if Babcock were to be an option, I take back everything I just said and go for him.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby The Penitent on Sun May 18, 2014 8:19 pm

Thanks for the great replies all. For the most part. very well reasoned commentary. Just to clarify my thought, I don't think DB is a bad coach - in fact, he's a very good coach overall. Just not for this team, not anymore. If the front office regretted firing him last year, what did they see in this year's playoffs that would change that view? Entertaining the possibility of bringing him back is flawed, plain and simple. The only thing would be considered a success for DB would be a Cup finals appearance. And what from this year's playoffs would make anyone think that is forthcoming, especially with what is likely to be a somewhat lesser team? The whole thing was a PR fiasco worthy of the Pirates, and the last thing the Pens should want to be doing is alienating the fan base, not with their prized sellout streak on the line.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby Gaucho on Sun May 18, 2014 8:33 pm

The Penitent wrote:I don't think DB is a bad coach - in fact, he's a very good coach overall. Just not for this team, not anymore.


Yes.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby supermario on Sun May 18, 2014 9:44 pm

Could it be that the Pittsburgh Penguins believe that he is an asset, and they are going to try and get what they can for that asset? Even if it is just getting someone to take his contract.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby Factorial on Sun May 18, 2014 10:07 pm

supermario wrote:Could it be that the Pittsburgh Penguins believe that he is an asset, and they are going to try and get what they can for that asset? Even if it is just getting someone to take his contract.


If that's all they cared about he would have been let go with Shero. Someone would have hired him and they would be off the hook for paying him another dime.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby GeoTank on Sun May 18, 2014 11:01 pm

A few people have touched on it but this is the full reason.

As hard as it is for most people here to believe it, Dan Bylsma is a highly desired Head Coach by other teams in this league. I know a few of you may have blacked out while reading so i'll say... type it again.

Dan Bylsma is a highly desired Head Coach by other teams in this league.

Mario and Company know that soon to be Ex-HCDB will be the first coaching domino to drop this off season. That being said why handicap your future GM by letting the dominos to start dropping before he gets into office. Once Dan is signed elsewhere the other coaches will start to get signed up too, and future GM might not get a chance at his choice.

As an ownership group why would you knowingly make your already difficult offseason even harder for your new GM.

AGAIN Dan Bylsma is a good coach and even though we don't want him anymore other teams really do. And they are willing to wait for a chance to get him.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby supermario on Mon May 19, 2014 12:31 am

Factorial wrote:
supermario wrote:Could it be that the Pittsburgh Penguins believe that he is an asset, and they are going to try and get what they can for that asset? Even if it is just getting someone to take his contract.


If that's all they cared about he would have been let go with Shero. Someone would have hired him and they would be off the hook for paying him another dime.



It's my understanding that if the penguins fire Dan B they will be on the hook for the remainder of his contract whether he works elsewhere or not. Correct?
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby pekkasteele on Mon May 19, 2014 3:01 am

I think everyone read way to much in to this, I see lots of conspiracy theories here, but I think it is as they said. The new GM can decide.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby no name on Mon May 19, 2014 8:03 am

supermario wrote:
Factorial wrote:
supermario wrote:Could it be that the Pittsburgh Penguins believe that he is an asset, and they are going to try and get what they can for that asset? Even if it is just getting someone to take his contract.


If that's all they cared about he would have been let go with Shero. Someone would have hired him and they would be off the hook for paying him another dime.



It's my understanding that if the penguins fire Dan B they will be on the hook for the remainder of his contract whether he works elsewhere or not. Correct?


I think that is wrong, he gets paid if he doesn't work. Once he is hired and signs a new contract his old one is null and void. As no coach can work work under 2 contracts. I am pretty sure this is the case, though not positive.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby llipgh2 on Mon May 19, 2014 8:53 am

no name wrote:
supermario wrote:

It's my understanding that if the penguins fire Dan B they will be on the hook for the remainder of his contract whether he works elsewhere or not. Correct?


I think that is wrong, he gets paid if he doesn't work. Once he is hired and signs a new contract his old one is null and void. As no coach can work work under 2 contracts. I am pretty sure this is the case, though not positive.


This is the point that needs to be verified.

If the Pens are on the hook regardless of his being hired by another team, it makes sense they haven't fired him. By forcing him to resign before signing with another team, they are free of his contract.

I thought there were some cases where a coach was pulling 2 salaries, but I'm more than likely wrong.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby DropEmJayBird on Mon May 19, 2014 9:28 am

You don't become a billionaire by paying people to not work.

Best case for the penguins as a hockey team is that Dan doesn't coach anywhere in the NHL this season (ie they let him go too late to get hired somewhere else).
Best case for ownership money is that Dan resigns or takes another contract and thus they don't owe him.

Both cases require that the penguins not fire Dan right now - and when ownership is asked about it - obviously they can't say either of the two things above, so they say nice things instead about Dan being the coach.

It's obvious, but writing about that in the local newspaper or in your blog won't get you eyes or hits... so you string the yinzers along with "Well maybe he will coach next year - wouldn't you hate that? comment now in my comments section and let me know!"
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby ffemtreed on Mon May 19, 2014 9:47 am

A logical answer to this question is very easy if you read all the sources of information and put it together.

Answer -- DB potentially fits in somewhere else in the organization. So he stays in the organization but not as head coach. His role will be determined by the new GM and how hockey operations will ultimately be restructured. This way they don't have to pay him not to work and they can still use his talents to benefit the organization.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby Crankshaft on Mon May 19, 2014 10:40 am

Why would Bylsma want to stick around with the team?

You people are making this too freaking difficult.

Byslma is a good coach - just not a fit for the Pens anymore. Byslma will land a job in very quick order. Teams are probably waiting to see where Bylsma lands before making any moves.

The Pens aren't hiring a coach until they hire a GM. They are going to hold onto Bylsma until he either asks for permission to leave or they have a new GM in place who has an idea which direction he wants to go.

If you fire him now, you risk starting the chain reaction of coach hirings. They are limiting themselves if they release him now.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby Dr Rosenrosen on Mon May 19, 2014 3:32 pm

llipgh2 wrote:
no name wrote:
supermario wrote:

It's my understanding that if the penguins fire Dan B they will be on the hook for the remainder of his contract whether he works elsewhere or not. Correct?


I think that is wrong, he gets paid if he doesn't work. Once he is hired and signs a new contract his old one is null and void. As no coach can work work under 2 contracts. I am pretty sure this is the case, though not positive.


This is the point that needs to be verified.

If the Pens are on the hook regardless of his being hired by another team, it makes sense they haven't fired him. By forcing him to resign before signing with another team, they are free of his contract.

I thought there were some cases where a coach was pulling 2 salaries, but I'm more than likely wrong.

Depends on how his contract is worded. Hopefully, there is an "offset" clause, which means the Penguins are only on the hook for the difference between his last two years Pens salary and what he would make under a new contract. However, it is entirely possible to "double-dip" by collecting both salaries. My guess is, Ray was smart enough to include the offset clause, especially since firing HCDB before the extension was up was a strong possibility.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby TheHammer24 on Tue May 20, 2014 10:23 am

GeoTank wrote:A few people have touched on it but this is the full reason.

As hard as it is for most people here to believe it, Dan Bylsma is a highly desired Head Coach by other teams in this league. I know a few of you may have blacked out while reading so i'll say... type it again.

Dan Bylsma is a highly desired Head Coach by other teams in this league.

Mario and Company know that soon to be Ex-HCDB will be the first coaching domino to drop this off season. That being said why handicap your future GM by letting the dominos to start dropping before he gets into office. Once Dan is signed elsewhere the other coaches will start to get signed up too, and future GM might not get a chance at his choice.

As an ownership group why would you knowingly make your already difficult offseason even harder for your new GM.

AGAIN Dan Bylsma is a good coach and even though we don't want him anymore other teams really do. And they are willing to wait for a chance to get him.

:thumb: :thumb:
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby the riddler on Mon May 26, 2014 1:40 pm

From Rossi's blog post today:

As of the middle of last week, the Penguins were said to target having a new general manager within two weeks. They want to provide the new general manager time to make a decision on head coach Dan Bylsma before the NHL Enty Draft on June 27-28. Bylsma has two years remaining on his contract, and Penguins ownership is said to be growing comfortable with the potential for him to return for next season.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby npv708 on Mon May 26, 2014 2:08 pm

the riddler wrote:From Rossi's blog post today:

As of the middle of last week, the Penguins were said to target having a new general manager within two weeks. They want to provide the new general manager time to make a decision on head coach Dan Bylsma before the NHL Enty Draft on June 27-28. Bylsma has two years remaining on his contract, and Penguins ownership is said to be growing comfortable with the potential for him to return for next season.


For being the self-proclaimed brand wiz that he claims to be, I'm not sure Morehouse quite understands the potential damage that bringing Bylsma back, even for a year, could do to the "brand."
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby shmenguin on Mon May 26, 2014 2:22 pm

Shouldn't Rossi be his own source every once in a while? Ownership is "said to"..."reports are" that so and so is whatever.

Any time he talks like this it's a fair assumption that he has no idea what he's saying.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby Crankshaft on Mon May 26, 2014 2:24 pm

The only reason I can see for bringing back Bylsma is such...

1) They don't see anyone on the market that is any better than John Hynes - and at this point, they are at no risk of losing him.
2) They will go into the season with the "fire the coach mid season" card that they can play. At which point, they can just promote Hynes to the Penguins on an interim basis.
3) If Hynes works out...great. If not, then Babcock.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby littlemoonboot on Mon May 26, 2014 2:33 pm

Ha. I think the Pens need change but the fallout will be very interesting to watch if they do keep him.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby bhaw on Mon May 26, 2014 2:45 pm

Crankshaft wrote:The only reason I can see for bringing back Bylsma is such...

1) They don't see anyone on the market that is any better than John Hynes - and at this point, they are at no risk of losing him.
2) They will go into the season with the "fire the coach mid season" card that they can play. At which point, they can just promote Hynes to the Penguins on an interim basis.
3) If Hynes works out...great. If not, then Babcock.


Except we're pretty much guaranteed a great regular season (re: #2) unless the players just have no interest in playing for him. And if that's the case, no reason to start the season with him.

#2 and #3 are basically throwing away another season. How many more can we throw away with Sid and Geno? I guess I don't see any hockey or common sense in #s 2 and 3. #1 is the only one that makes sense, but there's no guarantee the guy they want will be available next season either.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby Crankshaft on Mon May 26, 2014 3:19 pm

bhaw wrote:
Crankshaft wrote:The only reason I can see for bringing back Bylsma is such...

1) They don't see anyone on the market that is any better than John Hynes - and at this point, they are at no risk of losing him.
2) They will go into the season with the "fire the coach mid season" card that they can play. At which point, they can just promote Hynes to the Penguins on an interim basis.
3) If Hynes works out...great. If not, then Babcock.


Except we're pretty much guaranteed a great regular season (re: #2) unless the players just have no interest in playing for him. And if that's the case, no reason to start the season with him.

#2 and #3 are basically throwing away another season. How many more can we throw away with Sid and Geno? I guess I don't see any hockey or common sense in #s 2 and 3. #1 is the only one that makes sense, but there's no guarantee the guy they want will be available next season either.


Not saying I agree with this logic. I heard this idea floated on Madden's show last week. I forget which guest it was, but it was a national hockey guy - not a local jabrone.
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Re: Theories re Bylsma being retained

Postby Factorial on Mon May 26, 2014 6:03 pm

littlemoonboot wrote:Ha. I think the Pens need change but the fallout will be very interesting to watch if they do keep him.


Think there will be riots in the streets? :) Whatever decision is made, hopefully it's not solely done to appease the fans.
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