Work to start on Mellon arena site

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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby Pitts on Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:01 pm

Pitt87 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:Wasn't the north shore development handed over to the Steelers and Pirates as part of their negotiations? Serious question.


Yup... Though I think the Steelers (i.e. Dan and Art II)are leading the way on development.

Good. The Pirates would trade it away just when it's getting good anyway.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby npv708 on Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:03 pm

Pitts wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:Wasn't the north shore development handed over to the Steelers and Pirates as part of their negotiations? Serious question.


Yup... Though I think the Steelers (i.e. Dan and Art II)are leading the way on development.

Good. The Pirates would trade it away just when it's getting good anyway.


5-year plan.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby DesertPenguin on Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:08 pm

jimjom wrote:It's funny that the new Shop N Save on Centre is soon to open a Crazy Mocha, a Subway, and a phone store -- but the CEC still has a gaping vacancy next to Subway on 5th that was supposed to contain a Qdoba yet still stands empty to this day. The whole 5th Ave corridor is an embarrasing eyesore and the area around the arena is pathetic. Something needs to be done redevelopment wise.

Additionally the poster that connected Zappala with the mob is correct. His great grandfather and grandfather were members of the Black Hand, basically if i am not mistaken, the precursor to what we now refer to as the mafia in this day and age. Extortion, murder, racketeering and corruption. Seems like a good genepool for a DA.


Who do you think underwrote the municipal bond to get the CEC built (along with most every other public construction project in the area): Russell Rea Zappala & Gomulka Holdings Inc. They were were bought up by JP Morgan a while back, and made Greg Zappala a VP at JP Morgan. I wouldnt be surprised if the T tunnel had similar financing. No need for a municipal bond if the work is privately funded.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby Pitt87 on Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:34 pm

npv708 wrote:
Pitts wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:Wasn't the north shore development handed over to the Steelers and Pirates as part of their negotiations? Serious question.


Yup... Though I think the Steelers (i.e. Dan and Art II)are leading the way on development.

Good. The Pirates would trade it away just when it's getting good anyway.


5-year plan.


Del Monte Building for Cash, picks, and a treehouse to be named later.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:08 pm

Pitts wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:Wasn't the north shore development handed over to the Steelers and Pirates as part of their negotiations? Serious question.


Yup... Though I think the Steelers (i.e. Dan and Art II)are leading the way on development.

Good. The Pirates would trade it away just when it's getting good anyway.

Isnt that better than letting the stores move out once they start making money and hoping the next store in line replicates the quality?
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby Pitts on Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:56 pm

Similar

but, different.

Different,

yet similar.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby thehockeyguru on Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:39 am

http://www.post-gazette.com/business/2014/08/02/Penguins-seek-more-time-on-Arena-site-development/stories/201408020054

I imagine they will give them the additional year, but man you would think a plan would be in place after 7 years......
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby FreeCandy44 on Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:08 am

It can stay a parking lot for all I care.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby skullman80 on Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:25 pm

I think it staying a parking lot would be awful. Someone, whether the Pens or someone else needs to develop that area. Lots of potential there. Look at the arena district in Columbus, thats a destination even on non game nights. I'm not saying they can do the exact same here, but there is tons of stuff they could do to make that more than just a friggin parking lot.

It's pretty pathetic that its taken as long as it has to even start something. That's not all the Pens fault, as the Hill District I know has been fighting certain things, but at this point I don't care who does something, something productive should be done in that area. It's a waste as it stands currently.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby Grunthy on Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:37 pm

let's not kid ourselves, this delay is most likely almost all the hill district.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby thehockeyguru on Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:22 pm

Grunthy wrote:let's not kid ourselves, this delay is most likely almost all the hill district.


No one is saying it isnt. IMO, to even give the hill leaders the time of day is a joke.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby Fire0nice228 on Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:37 pm

Columbus arena district is awesome and I hope Pittsburgh develops something like that immediately. People might actually stay in town past 5pm on game and non game nights
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby FreeCandy44 on Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:36 pm

Again....paying $22 to park right across from the Lemieux statue and literally walking as little as possible is ok with me.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby Idoit40fans on Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:38 pm

It wouldn't be hard to create something not that different from the Columbus arena district between the storefronts on 5th(or is it forbes, i can never remember which is which) and the Mellon/Civic arena site.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby skullman80 on Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:22 pm

FreeCandy44 wrote:Again....paying $22 to park right across from the Lemieux statue and literally walking as little as possible is ok with me.


I'm a lazy bum too, so I feel you, but that area has so much potential. It would be an epic waste to just keep that a big parking lot.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:11 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:It wouldn't be hard to create something not that different from the Columbus arena district between the storefronts on 5th(or is it forbes, i can never remember which is which) and the Mellon/Civic arena site.


The big issue I see is traffic and roads.

It's much easier to have an arena district in Columbus because all their roads run parallel and the city/district is laid out in perfect blocks. It's easy to get traffic around because everything is laid out fairly nicely. Something like that would never work that close to downtown Pittsburgh because the roads aren't parallel. Traffic coming from anywhere on game nights is already a nightmare. Putting an arena district like Columbus would just increase that traffic and make it that much harder to get to and out of Consol.

It's not even a comparable situation, with how the respective cities are laid out.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby dodint on Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:13 pm

Better than PNC Arena. They don't have an arena district, put the arena way out of town on the beltway, and still screw up traffic control. I have no idea how they managed that.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:49 am

MRandall25 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:It wouldn't be hard to create something not that different from the Columbus arena district between the storefronts on 5th(or is it forbes, i can never remember which is which) and the Mellon/Civic arena site.


The big issue I see is traffic and roads.

It's much easier to have an arena district in Columbus because all their roads run parallel and the city/district is laid out in perfect blocks. It's easy to get traffic around because everything is laid out fairly nicely. Something like that would never work that close to downtown Pittsburgh because the roads aren't parallel. Traffic coming from anywhere on game nights is already a nightmare. Putting an arena district like Columbus would just increase that traffic and make it that much harder to get to and out of Consol.

It's not even a comparable situation, with how the respective cities are laid out.


Yeah, that is going to be a huge problem I think. I also think it is s not a desirable foot traffic location on a daily basis to help places there sustain business. Maybe a few office buildings that are close but most people downtown are not walking that far for lunch or happy hour especially up hill. I have been around through work some development projects and there is some pretty detailed research and formulas related to banks loaning money to these types of projects. Surprisingly while stadiums and arenas help it is not an end all be all because the time people spend money is limited to say an hour before and after the event. Maybe adding in some office buildings will help but how many are needed to really grow the area? (And people kind of over romanticize the North Shore. Dont get me wrong, its nice that a few buildings and hotels went up and a handful of bars. I just don't see it as this popular destination or district. Just a slowly built up area that gives me some beer options before Pirate games. Although State AE has been a huge success).

This is just a guess but banks not lending money might be the reason why they are seemingly having trouble filling up the locations at Consol and others selling property on Fifth especially if construction is needed. The potential customer numbers for banks just don't add up. That is purely a guess though.

As far as the Hill District Group we can disagree with their intentions. Which I do. But special interest groups and local governments pushing for money or rights in development projects in old hat. This should have been handled years ago by either the team, city or state. Someone dropped the ball here. We have known about this for long enough.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby newarenanow on Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:29 pm

Open up an African American Gentleman's club and you should hit the Hill Districts working perecentages.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby thehockeyguru on Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:00 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:It wouldn't be hard to create something not that different from the Columbus arena district between the storefronts on 5th(or is it forbes, i can never remember which is which) and the Mellon/Civic arena site.


The big issue I see is traffic and roads.

It's much easier to have an arena district in Columbus because all their roads run parallel and the city/district is laid out in perfect blocks. It's easy to get traffic around because everything is laid out fairly nicely. Something like that would never work that close to downtown Pittsburgh because the roads aren't parallel. Traffic coming from anywhere on game nights is already a nightmare. Putting an arena district like Columbus would just increase that traffic and make it that much harder to get to and out of Consol.

It's not even a comparable situation, with how the respective cities are laid out.


Yeah, that is going to be a huge problem I think. I also think it is s not a desirable foot traffic location on a daily basis to help places there sustain business. Maybe a few office buildings that are close but most people downtown are not walking that far for lunch or happy hour especially up hill. I have been around through work some development projects and there is some pretty detailed research and formulas related to banks loaning money to these types of projects. Surprisingly while stadiums and arenas help it is not an end all be all because the time people spend money is limited to say an hour before and after the event. Maybe adding in some office buildings will help but how many are needed to really grow the area? (And people kind of over romanticize the North Shore. Dont get me wrong, its nice that a few buildings and hotels went up and a handful of bars. I just don't see it as this popular destination or district. Just a slowly built up area that gives me some beer options before Pirate games. Although State AE has been a huge success).

This is just a guess but banks not lending money might be the reason why they are seemingly having trouble filling up the locations at Consol and others selling property on Fifth especially if construction is needed. The potential customer numbers for banks just don't add up. That is purely a guess though.

As far as the Hill District Group we can disagree with their intentions. Which I do. But special interest groups and local governments pushing for money or rights in development projects in old hat. This should have been handled years ago by either the team, city or state. Someone dropped the ball here. We have known about this for long enough.


Growing the area around the North Shore / Consol, IMO is tied to reasonably priced housing options. I think if the areas were to offer that both grow exponentially. If you google downtown apartments/condos/houses the median price is 619k, that isnt a receipe for growth.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:07 pm

I don't disagree but understand Pittsburgh isn't much different than most cities. NYC, Boston and Chicago maybe a few other have vibrant downtowns.

Most even if it's still considered the actual downtown are set up like Pittsburgh, even larger cities like Los Angeles. Residential just outside. Bigger difference might be transportation and even stability of those areas which in Pittsburgh need some revitalized a bit. Think more like what the north side is attempting to do.

I just think people need to realize Pittsburgh geographically is what it is until the secondary city areas show an uptick.

A few apartment buildings in that area? Meh, does nothing for me. Downtown real estate is always high and unless someone puts in thousands and thousands of units somewhere it's probably not going to change. And I don't see where they can put that many units.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby thehockeyguru on Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:39 am

It isnt much different than NYC, Boston, Chicago? I think its night and day. There is what 1 small grocery store downtown? I remember reading that you need 12,000 residents to support a large grocery store, in the golden triangle you have around 4,000. Until you put in affordable housing you arent going to get the numbers to build the necessities.

I agree that there isnt any place to put the amount of units needed to cause the transformation needed. One of the problems are areas like the Hill, the Crawford Apartments above the Mellon Arena site are nice places. But people are hesitant to live there because they dont want to get mugged or have their car broken into. This is why I dont like the Hill making demands, the Penguins should be demanding from Hill leadership that they worry about cleaning up their neighborhood. Since the Consol has been built what has changed with regards to crime / the hill?
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:52 am

thehockeyguru wrote:It isnt much different than NYC, Boston, Chicago? I think its night and day. There is what 1 small grocery store downtown? I remember reading that you need 12,000 residents to support a large grocery store, in the golden triangle you have around 4,000. Until you put in affordable housing you arent going to get the numbers to build the necessities.

I agree that there isnt any place to put the amount of units needed to cause the transformation needed. One of the problems are areas like the Hill, the Crawford Apartments above the Mellon Arena site are nice places. But people are hesitant to live there because they dont want to get mugged or have their car broken into. This is why I dont like the Hill making demands, the Penguins should be demanding from Hill leadership that they worry about cleaning up their neighborhood. Since the Consol has been built what has changed with regards to crime / the hill?


No I am saying it is not much different than any otter cities except NYC, Boston or Chicago. Those are the only ones with really vibrant downtown areas.
Most cities are set up more like Pittsburgh with areas close to the city where people live. Not these vibrant walking and living metropolitans.

I think people to need to realize its never going to happen for Pittsburgh. There isnt any spots downtown to build living spaces, there is will always be a small supply (therefore driving up prices).
Also, people in the same time want a more vibrant area but complain its too expensive. But living in downtowns in any city, especially the vibrant ones are always expensive.

Now I think where Pittsburgh lacks is building up the areas close to the city. They have really failed to revitalize those and badly.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby thehockeyguru on Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:25 am

I see what you are saying. I agree that downtown isnt going to develop because of the lack of land / housing options. But there are definitely development occurring the neighborhoods of Pittsburgh. The southside works has grown a lot in the past decade and Lawrenceville has also showed a remarkable turnaround. There is definitely work to be done, but man it takes a long time. Look no further than this civic arena development. Its been 7 years and they cant even decide on a plan.
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Re: Work to start on Mellon arena site

Postby raewhit on Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:34 am

Since there are very few downtown residents you need people from the suburbs to want to hang out downtown.
But the lack of an efficient mass transit system makes that difficult. People would be more likely to hang out downtown if it was easier to get there without drivng. Uber and Lyft are great things for people who live close the city. The T is great for people in the South Hills(I know that has its problems too), but if you live in Monroeville- forget about it- you gotta drive.

Now I think where Pittsburgh lacks is building up the areas close to the city. They have really failed to revitalize those and badly.


I think this is changing. Lawrenceville is booming. Tons of new housing is opening up geared to young people with disposable income.
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