At this point our biggest need?

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What do we need the most

bottom 6 depth forward
16
13%
top 6 winger
52
43%
a defensive defenseman
11
9%
an offensive defenseman
0
No votes
a "leader type"
13
11%
a new starting goalie.
2
2%
Our team looks good now
5
4%
our team will due till the trading deadline.
18
15%
Other
5
4%
 
Total votes : 122

Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:34 pm

mikey287 wrote:
Jim wrote:
Chirpin' Grinder wrote:
DelPen wrote:
If Spaling's award or signing comes in at or below $1.8 million and Sutter and Despres simply take their qualifiers we could land him for up to $1.9 million leaving pretty much no cap space. Unfortunately, getting Spaling back in the Neal deal could prevent us from getting a Stempniak, who on this team is a legit top 6 winger. Really hope Spaling is better than what he appears, with what we will end up paying him he will almost have to play on 2nd line LW.


Great point Delpen, hopefully it becomes understood that Spaling added no value to the Neal deal. Daniel Winnik or Lee Stempniak would be better signings and better fits for this team's needs for around the same money.

If Rutherford would manage to move Scuderi, he could also free up enough space to sign either of those guys and create some depth. Dupuis, Bennett and Downie are three huge health risks in the top 9.


If taking him helped get Hornqvist here over Neal... then Spalding added value to the deal.


We took Spaling because we wanted him. It wasn't a salary dump or a contract spot coming back. Either team could have walked away at any time - until arbitration was filed.

And re: UFAs, it takes two to tango. Players have to want to sign here as well. Maybe the organization didn't want Stempniak back (or vice versa). Maybe Winnik doesn't want to play in the East - or wants $3+ million. He is not shy about trying to squeeze every dollar out of his contracts.

We obviously saw added value in bringing in Spaling or else, ya know, we just wouldn't have done so...simple. Now, you might not like Spaling, but that's a completely different story.


It makes you wonder what value they see in him or what they think he will add that couldn't have been obtained via the UFA market with the same precious cap $$$'s. He doesn't address any of the needs Rutherford identified. A guy that isn't skilled enough for top 6 duty and isn't gritty or tough enough for bottom six, especially alongside gentlemen such as Goc or Sutter, is the absolute antithesis of what this team needed. As you had noted Mikey, we had Dustin Jeffrey.

Spaling is much more likely to disappear than step up during the playoff war of attrition. This is a guy that doesn't like contact. Add that to the fact that Rutherford was blathering the word "analytics" in every interview he gave and its just a really curious addition to the deal. Who recommended him? Why and based on what?

Just as a procedural issue, how does a team walk away after a player has been qualified?
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby DelPen on Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:03 pm

Simple is answer is you don't qualify him. I don't think a non-tendered now UFA could file for arbitration.
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:12 pm

We qualified him, AIUI. So, we could have just, well, not done so. As DelPen noted. He would have been free to leave as an untendered unrestricted free agent.

I'm not wild about Spaling, as noted. But I also wasn't jazzed up about Chris Kunitz either when he came here. Or Matt Niskanen for that matter. So...as much I'd like to think I learn a little bit about the game every day...sometimes you just can't tell...Doc might reference this as the "unseen hand" - maybe we get slapped in the right direction with Spaling...maybe he flakes out like Nils Ekman...maybe it's something more...

Either way, I think we ought to see what a new coaching staff and new players are capable of before we write off our chances of succeeding entirely. I mean, if we were assembled like Buffalo, well, then yeah, get in line for draft tickets...but this is still a very good team. And, as this board may have voted about two months ago, the sole biggest reason we were not having success was emancipated...so...ya know...whatever...and et cetera...can we just play a game already...
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby Chirpin' Grinder on Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:26 pm

As far as I understood, Spaling was qualified prior to the trade and was traded as a qualified RFA. No need to re-qualify him.

Yea, the worst culprits of the recent failures have been excised when Shero and Bylsma were sent packing. But the roster weaknesses remain. They are still too small, too soft and friendly and have no depth up front. They also have three huge health risks in the top 9.

I don't see them getting past Columbus as both rosters are currently constructed. Even with the coaching upgrade, this is a first or second round elimination roster unless said issues are addressed.
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby tfrizz on Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:29 pm

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:As far as I understood, Spaling was qualified prior to the trade and was traded as a qualified RFA. No need to re-qualify him.

Yea, the worst culprits of the recent failures have been excised when Shero and Bylsma were sent packing. But the roster weaknesses remain. They are still too small, too soft and friendly and have no depth up front. They also have three huge health risks in the top 9.

I don't see them getting past Columbus as both rosters are currently constructed. Even with the coaching upgrade, this is a first or second round elimination roster unless said issues are addressed.


http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/peng ... 1406300162

The Penguins have extended qualifying offers to all six of the restricted free agents in their organization.

They are forwards Brandon Sutter, Nick Spaling, Jayson Megna and Bobby Farnham and defensemen Simon Despres and Philip Samuelsson.


Nashville didn't tender qualifying offers until June 30. http://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/530243
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby tfrizz on Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:37 pm

mikey287 wrote:We qualified him, AIUI. So, we could have just, well, not done so. As DelPen noted. He would have been free to leave as an untendered unrestricted free agent.

I'm not wild about Spaling, as noted. But I also wasn't jazzed up about Chris Kunitz either when he came here. Or Matt Niskanen for that matter. So...as much I'd like to think I learn a little bit about the game every day...sometimes you just can't tell...Doc might reference this as the "unseen hand" - maybe we get slapped in the right direction with Spaling...maybe he flakes out like Nils Ekman...maybe it's something more...

Either way, I think we ought to see what a new coaching staff and new players are capable of before we write off our chances of succeeding entirely. I mean, if we were assembled like Buffalo, well, then yeah, get in line for draft tickets...but this is still a very good team. And, as this board may have voted about two months ago, the sole biggest reason we were not having success was emancipated...so...ya know...whatever...and et cetera...can we just play a game already...


I think the versatility of Spaling being able to play centre or wing adds to his allure. He was a good scorer and point producer in junior, which adds a little to his upside - the guy scored at a higher rate than Neal in the OHL (0.40 g/gp vs 0.36 g/gp) and was only marginally behind in point production (0.87 p/gp vs 0.93 p/gp).

Worst case, you're getting a soft versatile 3rd liner who can win facoffs and play a defensive role. Best case, some of that offensive flair he showed in junior comes back and he can make a decent 50-point complimentary winger in the top 6. It's really a low risk, low reward kind of deal unless you end up having to overpay extremely.


Edit: Re-reading that analysis, it really sounds like Spaling was brought in as insurance in case they can't reach a deal with Sutter.
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby DelPen on Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:40 pm

tfrizz wrote: Re-reading that analysis, it really sounds like Spaling was brought in as insurance in case they can't reach a deal with Sutter.


Funny thing is if he gets a crazy award it could prevent Sutter from returning leaving us no choice.
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:55 pm

Chirpin' Grinder wrote:As far as I understood, Spaling was qualified prior to the trade and was traded as a qualified RFA. No need to re-qualify him.

Yea, the worst culprits of the recent failures have been excised when Shero and Bylsma were sent packing. But the roster weaknesses remain. They are still too small, too soft and friendly and have no depth up front. They also have three huge health risks in the top 9.

I don't see them getting past Columbus as both rosters are currently constructed. Even with the coaching upgrade, this is a first or second round elimination roster unless said issues are addressed.


I would be more nervous for a total overhaul. Columbus is an oddly built team for the Wales Conference. They play extremely heavy, very Campbell Conference-y. They're the outlier. If Columbus can catch you, they can crush you. That said, they couldn't catch even a drowsy Penguins team last year. If the Penguins even had a scented candle lit under their collective rears, much less a fire under their asses, I think they would have danced them. The flashes that the Pens showed utterly dismantled that team, wore them out and maybe some question their manhood...the problem is, they happened 10 minutes here and there...and the series dragged on a little longer than it should have.

Columbus is going to be better, but I believe we can be too. Coaching is the great wildcard. Very underrated by the mild enthusiasts. It's a coach's game today, not a player's game.
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby pcm on Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:01 pm

tfrizz wrote: Re-reading that analysis, it really sounds like Spaling was brought in as insurance in case they can't reach a deal with Sutter.


And Goc. Both additions seem to point to a contentious negotiation with Sutter's camp. I'm not sure what to make of it all. If Sutter were to accept his QO and head to UFA next year, I'd immediately put him on the trade block.
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby shmenguin on Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:02 pm

i don't expect CBJ to make the playoffs this year, much like i didn't expect the islanders to make the playoffs last year. they aren't scary at all.
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby pcm on Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:11 pm

mikey287 wrote:
Chirpin' Grinder wrote:As far as I understood, Spaling was qualified prior to the trade and was traded as a qualified RFA. No need to re-qualify him.

Yea, the worst culprits of the recent failures have been excised when Shero and Bylsma were sent packing. But the roster weaknesses remain. They are still too small, too soft and friendly and have no depth up front. They also have three huge health risks in the top 9.

I don't see them getting past Columbus as both rosters are currently constructed. Even with the coaching upgrade, this is a first or second round elimination roster unless said issues are addressed.


I would be more nervous for a total overhaul. Columbus is an oddly built team for the Wales Conference. They play extremely heavy, very Campbell Conference-y. They're the outlier. If Columbus can catch you, they can crush you. That said, they couldn't catch even a drowsy Penguins team last year. If the Penguins even had a scented candle lit under their collective rears, much less a fire under their asses, I think they would have danced them. The flashes that the Pens showed utterly dismantled that team, wore them out and maybe some question their manhood...the problem is, they happened 10 minutes here and there...and the series dragged on a little longer than it should have.

Columbus is going to be better, but I believe we can be too. Coaching is the great wildcard. Very underrated by the mild enthusiasts. It's a coach's game today, not a player's game.


Agreed. My biggest concern is whether this team's depth on wing will allow it play a real puck possession game. Granted, it sounds like HCMJ's gameplan will focus on the centers, and really take advantage of our skill level there. But can our top 9 wingers (Kunitz, Hornqvist, Dupuis, Bennett, Downie, Sapling) keep up? Only Bennett and Dupuis are good skaters (relative-speaking), and both have other question marks around them.

Who in that list can support the puck in transition? Losing Jokinen and Stempniak, and even Neal, hurts in that regard. On the flipside, we look to be a better board team. More compete, a bit "heavier" so to speak. Essentially though, this is why I see a top 6 winger as this team's greatest need. A guy who skate with the puck and add, not just offense, but hockey sense to that group... My perfect fit would be Ryan O'Reilly, but that's likely a dream.
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby NeddieVedder on Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:16 pm

shmenguin wrote:i don't expect CBJ to make the playoffs this year, much like i didn't expect the islanders to make the playoffs last year. they aren't scary at all.


The insult to injury of the Phi, NYI, and CBJ series were how not good any of those teams turned out/will turn out to be. Shero was giving good-natured props to Snow about how on the rise they were and the run for our money they gave us, when the sad reality was we had way less money than we thought we did. Playoff series get tight and low seeds will play their hearts out, but when Jack Cap and the Island of misfit boys can make the Prez Trophy runner-up look downright stupid, you've got legit Bylsma problems.
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:26 pm

shmenguin wrote:i don't expect CBJ to make the playoffs this year, much like i didn't expect the islanders to make the playoffs last year. they aren't scary at all.


I fully expect CBJ to fight for the final playoffs spot down to the wire. The Islanders would likely have been fighting for the final playoff spot last year if they didn't lose Tavares after the Olympics and eventually Okposo.

I think there's going to be shift of power next year in the East. The Rangers are going to be significantly weaker next year and the Red Wings haven't done much to make themselves any better. There's going to be a lot of room for the Islanders and Jackets to sneak in.

EDIT: My prediction for the top four spots in the Metro Division are as follows:

Penguins
Islanders
Philadelphia
Columbus or Washington
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy on Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:33 pm

Metro:
Pens
Rangers
CBJ
Washington

ATL:
Bruins
Habs
Leafs
Lightning
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:01 pm

I definitely think Columbus is in again. I'd feel better for Wiz was not employed by them, but they should be good. They can mash the other pansy-ass teams that play in the Wales Conference to bits if they get to their game...
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:41 pm

MalkinIsMyHomeboy wrote:Metro:
Pens
Rangers
CBJ
Washington

ATL:
Bruins
Habs
Leafs
Lightning


The Islanders have significantly upgraded their goaltending tandem and now have a lot of offensive weapons. While their D is still suspect, they'll be very much like TBL last year.

I don't see the Rangers making the playoffs. So far they've lost Richards, Boyle and Stralman. They've replaced Stralman with D. Boyle and replaced B. Boyle with Dominic Moore. While I think the the world of Stepan, he's not a legitimate #1 and they're going to be hard-pressed to acquire a legit top six center. They're going to have a very difficult year.

Washington may make, but they will struggle. Adding Orpik and Niskanen will help, but they are a fundamentally flawed team.
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby DesertPenguin on Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:40 pm

I'm still stinging that we couldn't land Kulemin, but I think this roster looks OK for now. The Sutter and. Spaling contracts need to get worked out, and depending on term and number we may decide to move one of them to make the cap work. I expect Scuderi to get some playing time early on with Maatta hurt, and I expect him to look halfway competent. When Maatta comes back, scuds will get moved to a team that needs a defensive replacement due to injury. Sometime between November and the trade deadline, we will see what we have, and make a move to shore up the team for a playoff run. As currently constructed, that's probably a top 6 LW, but we need to see how the team meshes together and how healthy we are first. GMJR has stated as much, that he will reassess the team at the midpoint and make moves as necessary.
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby André on Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:12 am

DayWalker wrote:
pcm wrote: :roll: When did our fanbase become so elitist and arrogant? Was it when we got Sid and Geno, and everyone suddenly believes that because they're superstars can do all the heavy lifting themselves for this team's offense? Because that's worked out great the past two years.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fe ... me=summary

Looks to me like scoring goals was a big part of LA's cup win... The Pens were 3rd in GA/G. But they couldn't score against NYR to close out the series. They couldn't score against Bos at all the year before. Oh sure, we look great in the reg season or against the NYI and OTT, but as soon as Sid and/or Geno gets shut down, the team collapses.

But go on preaching and making fun of the majority of other people on this board (44% in the poll), as it seems to make you guys feel better about yourselves.


:thumb:

Aside from the 1984 Smythe Division Semi-finals against the Flyers in 2012, this team has been knocked out of the playoffs four times since winning the Cup in 2009 because they could not score enough:

12 goals in the last 6 games against Montreal in 2010

11 goals in the last six games against Tampa Bay in 2011, including 4 in the last three games.

2 goals in 4 games against Boston in 2013

14 goals in 7 games against the Rangers in 2014, including 3 in the last three games.

Any person who claims this team has or has had enough scoring either stops watching Penguins games once the regular season ends, is functionally ignorant of statistics, or is so heavily invested in some kind of mindless conceit that he/she is incapable of recognizing empirical data.


Have to agree with this. No secondary scoring in the playoffs. If one of Sid and Geno hasn't fully clicked Pens have been shut down.
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby André on Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:15 am

DelPen wrote:
Mad City Mike wrote:
Beveridge wrote:It boggles my mind how after watching this team the past 5-7 years that top 6 and scoring seems to be what people think the Pens' issue is.


It's all about the playoffs. How has that top 6 done there?


I really wonder how well this lineup would have done vs Boston:

Kunitz-Crosby-Iginla
Morrow-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis
Bennett-Jokinen-Kennedy

Top 6 has been garbage in the playoffs most likely because the coach didn't put them in the best situations for success.

That being said, we still need at least one more guy in the top 6 because even now, Morrow and Iginla are still better than Dupuis and whoever ends up on the 2nd line, but that guy will probably be Spaling now because the cap.


Really frustrating to see the roster the Pens fielded in the 13 playoffs. They didn't come close to utilizing the tools at hand. I wanted Bylsma gone then already.
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby no name on Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:49 am

André wrote:
DayWalker wrote:
pcm wrote: :roll: When did our fanbase become so elitist and arrogant? Was it when we got Sid and Geno, and everyone suddenly believes that because they're superstars can do all the heavy lifting themselves for this team's offense? Because that's worked out great the past two years.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fe ... me=summary

Looks to me like scoring goals was a big part of LA's cup win... The Pens were 3rd in GA/G. But they couldn't score against NYR to close out the series. They couldn't score against Bos at all the year before. Oh sure, we look great in the reg season or against the NYI and OTT, but as soon as Sid and/or Geno gets shut down, the team collapses.

But go on preaching and making fun of the majority of other people on this board (44% in the poll), as it seems to make you guys feel better about yourselves.


:thumb:



Aside from the 1984 Smythe Division Semi-finals against the Flyers in 2012, this team has been knocked out of the playoffs four times since winning the Cup in 2009 because they could not score enough:

12 goals in the last 6 games against Montreal in 2010

11 goals in the last six games against Tampa Bay in 2011, including 4 in the last three games.

2 goals in 4 games against Boston in 2013

14 goals in 7 games against the Rangers in 2014, including 3 in the last three games.

Any person who claims this team has or has had enough scoring either stops watching Penguins games once the regular season ends, is functionally ignorant of statistics, or is so heavily invested in some kind of mindless conceit that he/she is incapable of recognizing empirical data.


Have to agree with this. No secondary scoring in the playoffs. If one of Sid and Geno hasn't fully clicked Pens have been shut down.


Thoes numbers are pretty telling. I kinda wanted to make the arguement that in the playoffs you are supposed to win the low scoring games. But that don't hold much traction when you can't even put up 2 or 3 goals to win the close ones. As much as the top 6 winger is a need. We needed the ugly goal from the 3rd or 4th line the keep us in those games or give us a chance to win. The cup year how many timely goals did we get from Kennedy and Staal in the cup final. 4 total if i rememeber correctly.

We got to much offense on the defence and not enough in the forward group. IMHO.
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby Penspal on Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:07 am

CBJ will be better... BUT they have to fix the Johannsen contract mess. Injuries could kill them as well, their depth is good, but young.
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby Pitt87 on Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:23 am

Over/Under 40: Post HCDB, how many nights does CfA crack the lineup?
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby Pruezy11881 on Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:17 pm

Unfortunately, over I feel..
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby Dan H on Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:52 pm

Pitt87 wrote:Over/Under 40: Post HCDB, how many nights does CfA crack the lineup?

I'd probably take the over because of injuries. Even if CFA is your 13th or 14th forward, how many games will the Penguins go all year with 11 or all 12 of their top 12 guys healthy?
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Re: At this point our biggest need?

Postby Penspal on Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:18 pm

I'll take the UNDER on Adams
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