Have you stopped patronizing station square yet?

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Postby Ben Klingston on Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:00 am

Marshall Dylan wrote:Swann gets into trouble when he has to actually take stands and understand issues. Right now he's a pretty face with a famous name.


Right. I mean, there's never been ANYONE elected to a public office on a pretty face and famous name, while struggling with real issues. :roll:
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Postby Marshall Dylan on Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:31 am

Draftnik wrote:The only thing that will produce less results than that or the boycott is apathy and inaction.


The problem with that is so much of the "action" is being wasted on things that aren't productive. There are people here who are bombarding Onorato and Rendell with daily e-mails. At this point, the staff recognizes the same names and addresses and hits "delete" without even reading them.

If a Station Square boycott were to have an impact -- which is very doubtful -- what would happen? Forest City would withdraw its slots bid? Promise to build an arena? No chance.

Better to plot a logical course of action and devote the energy to that. A handful of people voting against Rendell in an uncontested primary won't make a bit of difference.
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Postby passmaster16 on Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:30 am

Better to plot a logical course of action and devote the energy to that. A handful of people voting against Rendell in an uncontested primary won't make a bit of difference.


Since you appear to be such an expert on this issue, what do you suggest that we do? In a democracy, the only real card the people hold is the ability to vote and to be heard. I agree with draftnik that voting against Rendell in the primary is better than doing nothing at all. You speak of logical course of action but you give no insight as to what that is. What do you really feel the people can do about the situation other than continue to voice their opinion via emails, phone calls, rallys etc and vote against candidates who don't support the bid for the arena?

By the way, I think everybody is following the logical course of action. The only way the outcome can be influenced is if the public outcry puts enough pressure on the officials to get an arena deal...that deal probably wouldn't be giving the license to IoC, but could involve Forest City or Barden to include the arena as a part of their proposals.
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Postby dboss on Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:41 am

passmaster16 wrote:Since you appear to be such an expert on this issue, what do you suggest that we do? In a democracy, the only real card the people hold is the ability to vote and to be heard. I agree with draftnik that voting against Rendell in the primary is better than doing nothing at all. You speak of logical course of action but you give no insight as to what that is. What do you really feel the people can do about the situation other than continue to voice their opinion via emails, phone calls, rallys etc and vote against candidates who don't support the bid for the arena?

By the way, I think everybody is following the logical course of action. The only way the outcome can be influenced is if the public outcry puts enough pressure on the officials to get an arena deal...that deal probably wouldn't be giving the license to IoC, but could involve Forest City or Barden to include the arena as a part of their proposals.


And that is why the Pens need to stop launching these campaigns on FSN and ESPN Radio. They need to get this message out to more than their fan base. Their base is secure and behind them 100%. They need to let the general public know the true impact of not getting the arena, losing the Pens, losing all the associated revenue, etc. As far as I'm concerned all the people in the Pens camp David Morehouse, etc. are not doing the job they are being paid to do. FC keeps getting these front page stories and Morehouse is left to rebutt those arguments. MOREHOUSE needs to be the one throwing the stories out there that get the front page attention of the general public. I think that is the most disheartening aspect of this whole process. The Pens don't seem to be fighting for survival. If they got into this 'game' with FC then they should be playing to WIN!
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Postby FallenHero96 on Wed Feb 15, 2006 10:53 am

Let's see, I lived in Pittsburgh for 25 years.... and I think I have been to Station Square once in my life. Never really had the urge to go there for anything.
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Postby Peter on Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:18 am

passmaster16 wrote: In a democracy, the only real card the people hold is the ability to vote and to be heard.


Yes, and how will a handful of people not going to Station Square affect your vote or your voice? Now if you set up an official Station Square protest with signs and everything, then you'd be heard. But nobody here is going to do that. Plus that would be negative press anyway.
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Postby Peter on Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:21 am

NIN wrote:
I bet your among the college crowd who are just passing through this pathetic Brugh and don't really care where the team ends up because your smart enough to realize that making a life here is dumb.


I'm much too old for that :0 Why would you assume that? Because I think Station Square has a right to compete for the licence?
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Postby Draftnik on Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:42 am

Marshall Dylan wrote:
Draftnik wrote:The only thing that will produce less results than that or the boycott is apathy and inaction.


The problem with that is so much of the "action" is being wasted on things that aren't productive. There are people here who are bombarding Onorato and Rendell with daily e-mails. At this point, the staff recognizes the same names and addresses and hits "delete" without even reading them.

If a Station Square boycott were to have an impact -- which is very doubtful -- what would happen? Forest City would withdraw its slots bid? Promise to build an arena? No chance.

Better to plot a logical course of action and devote the energy to that. A handful of people voting against Rendell in an uncontested primary won't make a bit of difference.



The actions outlined are logical. What does Rendell care about? Getting re-elected then possibly running for the US Senate and/or the Presidency, depending on his political fortunes. The only thing Pens fans and people of Western PA have that Rendell wants are votes and campaign $$$. The way to get him to react to our agenda is to withhold what he wants.

Forest City wants the slots license as well as booming business at their Station Square properties. The better business is at Station Square the more $$$ per square foot they can charge current and future tenants to lease their space. If their economic interests are threatened they will kick in $$$ for a new arena to protect their slots license as well as the value of their current properties.

If these actions are only carried out by Pens fans they will be ineffective, but that can be said about any activity proposed. The challenge the Pens face is mobilizing a larger constituency to take an active interest in this issue. It is still very early in the game, so hopefully they plan on unleashing their PR campaign to sway Rendell and attack Forest City in the next month or two.
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Postby jimjom on Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:59 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:
Peter wrote:No way, Dude, Buca is an awesome place to eat, and Kiku is awesome Sushi. I also bought my Terrible towell at hometown sports.
Why would we boycott legitimate and good Pittsburgh Business?


Buca is also in Robinson Town Center


...I agree, you can buy this stuff everywhere. The Robinson Buca is less crowded.
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Postby pfim on Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:23 pm

jimjom wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
Peter wrote:No way, Dude, Buca is an awesome place to eat, and Kiku is awesome Sushi. I also bought my Terrible towell at hometown sports.
Why would we boycott legitimate and good Pittsburgh Business?


Buca is also in Robinson Town Center


...I agree, you can buy this stuff everywhere. The Robinson Buca is less crowded.


They own the Mall in Robinson and half of Robinson Towne Center as well.

All boycotting Station Square will do is save you a few pennies and make you feel like you "made a difference." But you won't have made a difference. Forest City doesn't care if you buy your Terrible Towel somewhere else, if anything it would encourage them to find more attractions (a casino?) to their property.
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:49 pm

pfim wrote:They own the Mall in Robinson and half of Robinson Towne Center as well.

All boycotting Station Square will do is save you a few pennies and make you feel like you "made a difference." But you won't have made a difference. Forest City doesn't care if you buy your Terrible Towel somewhere else, if anything it would encourage them to find more attractions (a casino?) to their property.


You're right, I just checked, Ratner does own the Robinson Property, I didn't know that. Wow.

I will take exception to your comment that boycotts don't make a difference, they're an amazingly successful economic tool. Even the threat of a boycott can work wonders. Think about it. Forest City / Ratner doesn't employ PR and marketing people for nothing. They are extremely serious about driving people to their properties. Even the threat of a boycott could encourgaqe businesses to look elsewhere to open their storefronts.

Warner Center and the Bank were once attractive developments too, but they're either a shell of what they once were (Warner center) or ancient history (The Bank Center). Those who have lived in Pittsburgh for years will remember that there used to be a huge mall on the Northside as well.

NO businessman wants negative publicity for their businesses.

The one arguement that holds no currency what-so-ever is that boycotts don't work. Trust me, if the words boycott and Forest City are ever put together in the same sentence in a PG article, Ratner will have it on his desk that day, and there will be an immediate response. Now they may not change any policies, (If the Boycott is deemed to be so small as to be insignificant) but if they think it might taint even a portion of the publics opinion of their property, they WILL respond.

Now, whether or not we could ever organize a boycott with enough significance to change Forest City's policies, that's probably NOT going to happen. It definately makes me feel better about myself though when I don't spend my hard earned money at a business or enterprise that I feel is irresponsible, and hey, that's good enough for me.
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Postby dboss on Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:03 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
pfim wrote:They own the Mall in Robinson and half of Robinson Towne Center as well.

All boycotting Station Square will do is save you a few pennies and make you feel like you "made a difference." But you won't have made a difference. Forest City doesn't care if you buy your Terrible Towel somewhere else, if anything it would encourage them to find more attractions (a casino?) to their property.


You're right, I just checked, Ratner does own the Robinson Property, I didn't know that. Wow.

I will take exception to your comment that boycotts don't make a difference, they're an amazingly successful economic tool. Even the threat of a boycott can work wonders. Think about it. Forest City / Ratner doesn't employ PR and marketing people for nothing. They are extremely serious about driving people to their properties. Even the threat of a boycott could encourgaqe businesses to look elsewhere to open their storefronts.

Warner Center and the Bank were once attractive developments too, but they're either a shell of what they once were (Warner center) or ancient history (The Bank Center). Those who have lived in Pittsburgh for years will remember that there used to be a huge mall on the Northside as well.

NO businessman wants negative publicity for their businesses.

The one arguement that holds no currency what-so-ever is that boycotts don't work. Trust me, if the words boycott and Forest City are ever put together in the same sentence in a PG article, Ratner will have it on his desk that day, and there will be an immediate response. Now they may not change any policies, (If the Boycott is deemed to be so small as to be insignificant) but if they think it might taint even a portion of the publics opinion of their property, they WILL respond.

Now, whether or not we could ever organize a boycott with enough significance to change Forest City's policies, that's probably NOT going to happen. It definately makes me feel better about myself though when I don't spend my hard earned money at a business or enterprise that I feel is irresponsible, and hey, that's good enough for me.


This is right on. Anyone remember the news around here in the past couple of months and how a high school girls group organized a 'Girlcott' so that Abercrombie and Fitch would stop selling shirts that they claimed demeaned women? Well guess what, that small group of HIGH SCHOOL girls got Abercrombie and Fitch to stop selling these shirts. How did they succeed? They got a TON of press on it. National TV shows even picked up the story. Boycotts work!
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Postby pfim on Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:26 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
pfim wrote:They own the Mall in Robinson and half of Robinson Towne Center as well.

All boycotting Station Square will do is save you a few pennies and make you feel like you "made a difference." But you won't have made a difference. Forest City doesn't care if you buy your Terrible Towel somewhere else, if anything it would encourage them to find more attractions (a casino?) to their property.


You're right, I just checked, Ratner does own the Robinson Property, I didn't know that. Wow.

I will take exception to your comment that boycotts don't make a difference, they're an amazingly successful economic tool. Even the threat of a boycott can work wonders. Think about it. Forest City / Ratner doesn't employ PR and marketing people for nothing. They are extremely serious about driving people to their properties. Even the threat of a boycott could encourgaqe businesses to look elsewhere to open their storefronts.

Warner Center and the Bank were once attractive developments too, but they're either a shell of what they once were (Warner center) or ancient history (The Bank Center). Those who have lived in Pittsburgh for years will remember that there used to be a huge mall on the Northside as well.

NO businessman wants negative publicity for their businesses.

The one arguement that holds no currency what-so-ever is that boycotts don't work. Trust me, if the words boycott and Forest City are ever put together in the same sentence in a PG article, Ratner will have it on his desk that day, and there will be an immediate response. Now they may not change any policies, (If the Boycott is deemed to be so small as to be insignificant) but if they think it might taint even a portion of the publics opinion of their property, they WILL respond.

Now, whether or not we could ever organize a boycott with enough significance to change Forest City's policies, that's probably NOT going to happen. It definately makes me feel better about myself though when I don't spend my hard earned money at a business or enterprise that I feel is irresponsible, and hey, that's good enough for me.


I never said boycotts don't work. I'm saying this one won't, it would be so weak on so many levels that it's not even worth discussing.

All it would do is put a crunch on their tenants for a year while the slots applications are processed and awarded. Even if the boycott created an economic impact on Forest City, it would be a delayed impact and it would be so small relative to the size of their company it would, again, be pointless.

I think a lot of people don't have a proper perspective of how big Forest City is an how small of a development Station Square is currently, especially related to retail and restaurant space.
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Postby Draftnik on Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:42 pm

pfim wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
pfim wrote:They own the Mall in Robinson and half of Robinson Towne Center as well.

All boycotting Station Square will do is save you a few pennies and make you feel like you "made a difference." But you won't have made a difference. Forest City doesn't care if you buy your Terrible Towel somewhere else, if anything it would encourage them to find more attractions (a casino?) to their property.


You're right, I just checked, Ratner does own the Robinson Property, I didn't know that. Wow.

I will take exception to your comment that boycotts don't make a difference, they're an amazingly successful economic tool. Even the threat of a boycott can work wonders. Think about it. Forest City / Ratner doesn't employ PR and marketing people for nothing. They are extremely serious about driving people to their properties. Even the threat of a boycott could encourgaqe businesses to look elsewhere to open their storefronts.

Warner Center and the Bank were once attractive developments too, but they're either a shell of what they once were (Warner center) or ancient history (The Bank Center). Those who have lived in Pittsburgh for years will remember that there used to be a huge mall on the Northside as well.

NO businessman wants negative publicity for their businesses.

The one arguement that holds no currency what-so-ever is that boycotts don't work. Trust me, if the words boycott and Forest City are ever put together in the same sentence in a PG article, Ratner will have it on his desk that day, and there will be an immediate response. Now they may not change any policies, (If the Boycott is deemed to be so small as to be insignificant) but if they think it might taint even a portion of the publics opinion of their property, they WILL respond.

Now, whether or not we could ever organize a boycott with enough significance to change Forest City's policies, that's probably NOT going to happen. It definately makes me feel better about myself though when I don't spend my hard earned money at a business or enterprise that I feel is irresponsible, and hey, that's good enough for me.


I never said boycotts don't work. I'm saying this one won't, it would be so weak on so many levels that it's not even worth discussing.

All it would do is put a crunch on their tenants for a year while the slots applications are processed and awarded. Even if the boycott created an economic impact on Forest City, it would be a delayed impact and it would be so small relative to the size of their company it would, again, be pointless.

I think a lot of people don't have a proper perspective of how big Forest City is an how small of a development Station Square is currently, especially related to retail and restaurant space.


Forest City must be turned into a local pariah. I'm curious what your approach to this situation would be. The Pens are advocating contacting local/state politicians. Attempting to apply pressure on Forest City and Rendell are not mutually exclusive actions to the Pens plan and offer no downside risk. The slots license is a license to print $$$. A $6M per year contribution to an arena fund is a pittance for Forest City/Harrahs. They have no local constituency with a vested interest in this process so Pens advocates will be the only people protesting, boycotting, voting against Rendell, etc. The negativity people have in this region towards the Pens prospects of staying here and possible interventions is amazing. The Pens are still here are we have a year or so to try and keep them here. A scorched earth policy of trying every possible measure, no matter how likely or unlikely the potential for success, is preferable to inaction because if the Pens leave there will never be an NHL hockey team in Pittsburgh again. We have nothing to lose by boycotting Forest City and considering how many dining/drinking/shopping alternatives are available no boycotter will have the quality of their life diminished in the process.
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Postby Peter on Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:00 pm

Hey even if there is a Buca in robinson, the SS one is more convenient for me. That counts for a lot. Why would I travel elsewhere?
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:06 pm

Peter wrote:Hey even if there is a Buca in robinson, the SS one is more convenient for me. That counts for a lot. Why would I travel elsewhere?


You know what Peter... *you* probably wouldn't

I will.

Enough said
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Postby HomerPenguin on Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:19 pm

Ben Klingston wrote:
Marshall Dylan wrote:Swann gets into trouble when he has to actually take stands and understand issues. Right now he's a pretty face with a famous name.


Right. I mean, there's never been ANYONE elected to a public office on a pretty face and famous name, while struggling with real issues. :roll:


Did you SEE Swann on Stephanopoulos's show on Sunday? He was painfully uninformed. Not to say that that will make a difference with potential voters (the 33 people who watch TWwGS every week may all be outside PA), but it was extraordinarily inept.
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Postby HomerPenguin on Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:24 pm

Peter wrote:Hey even if there is a Buca in robinson, the SS one is more convenient for me. That counts for a lot. Why would I travel elsewhere?


Honestly, Peter, you can be a bit dense sometimes. As EPP said, he's going to do it but nobody is forcing you to do anything. Spend your money at those "good Pittsburgh stores" (like, what, Hard Rock Cafe? real local there) who send their rent checks to Cleveland care of the guy who is going to ensure that the Penguins leave Pittsburgh. Nobody can stop you from doing that and frankly nobody cares all that much what you do.
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Postby Peter on Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:37 pm

Well they are Pittsburgh stores, because they are in Pittsburgh, and bring people into the city. So I'm all about people coming into the city. What is so dense about that? It's not my fault that the guy who collects checks lives in cleveland. The fact is it brings people into town. Lots of people would rather go to Station Square then go to a Pens game. You sound a bit defensive here, if you truly don't care what I think, why does it bother you so much and why do you resort to petty name calling?
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Postby HomerPenguin on Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:39 pm

Peter wrote:Well they are Pittsburgh stores, because they are in Pittsburgh, and bring people into the city. So I'm all about people coming into the city. What is so dense about that? It's not my fault that the guy who collects checks lives in cleveland. The fact is it brings people into town. Lots of people would rather go to Station Square then go to a Pens game. You sound a bit defensive here, if you truly don't care what I think, why does it bother you so much and why do you resort to petty name calling?


Yes, Peter, I'm sure that millions of people come into Pittsburgh each year for STATION SQUARE. They must be friends with the millions who are dying to living in luxury condos downtown.

Is it name-calling, or am I just trying to help you face facts?
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Postby Marshall Dylan on Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:46 pm

One more time: Boycotting Station Square means far less to Forest City than it does to the people who lease space there. Did it ever occur to anyone that the Penguins may do business with some of the Station Square tenants for things like advertising and sponsorship?

As far as what can be done that's productive, that's EXACTLY what the Penguins should be addressing. Their website should have a list of 10 things you can do to help the cause. There is legislation being proposed in the state house about this issue. They should have information about that and where people should write to support it. There should be information tables in high-traffic public places downtown and in the suburbs to bring the issue to people who aren't hockey fans. This is a political campaign -- you win those by reaching out to people who aren't already aligned with the cause. There's a lot of passion and energy and they should take advantage of that and channel it properly.

For all anyone knows, the Penguins are trying to hook up Hard Rock Cafe for a sponsorship deal at the same time fans are calling for a boycott of the place.
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Postby HomerPenguin on Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:50 pm

Marshall Dylan wrote:One more time: Boycotting Station Square means far less to Forest City than it does to the people who lease space there. Did it ever occur to anyone that the Penguins may do business with some of the Station Square tenants for things like advertising and sponsorship?

As far as what can be done that's productive, that's EXACTLY what the Penguins should be addressing. Their website should have a list of 10 things you can do to help the cause. There is legislation being proposed in the state house about this issue. They should have information about that and where people should write to support it. There should be information tables in high-traffic public places downtown and in the suburbs to bring the issue to people who aren't hockey fans. This is a political campaign -- you win those by reaching out to people who aren't already aligned with the cause. There's a lot of passion and energy and they should take advantage of that and channel it properly.

For all anyone knows, the Penguins are trying to hook up Hard Rock Cafe for a sponsorship deal at the same time fans are calling for a boycott of the place.


This whole discussion assumes that if people who are informed about the arena issue boycotted Station Square, it would make a dent in the number of people who go there. I doubt that very much. But I will say that if the Penguins do get into a public shouting match with Ratner, I doubt very much that they are going to look to do business with his tenants AND I doubt that Ratner will make it easy for those tenants to do business with the Penguins.
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:07 pm

I live outside of Pittsburgh. I have for years. I still go shopping, when I do I try and buy Pittsburgh products. I recently bought siding for my house, I made sure it was Alcoa related and not Kaiser. When I bought a TV a few years ago, one of the factors I considerd was that it was made in New Stanton. One of my favorite little quirks is that I'll always ask for Heinz catsup. NOT HUNTS.

Does that mean I have something against the people who work for Hunts? or Kaiser? or any other comapny based outside of Pittsburgh? NO. It's just that if I can invest my money in a company based in Pittsburgh, so much the better.

If you spend your money in the Strip District or Ross Park mall instead of at Station Square, it's still going to be spent at a Pittsburgh based outlet. If the landlord is Pittsburgh based, so much the better. The more money we spend here, that stays here, the better for everyone.

You can't always do that, and sometimes a product from another place is head and shoulders above it's locally based competition, in that case, you have to do whats right for you and your family, but if everything else is equal, buy Pittsburgh and buy from companies whose stores are located in a Pittsburgh based landlords facillity.

Now doesn't that make sense?
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Postby Marshall Dylan on Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:08 pm

Ratner is NOT going to care if Hard Rock Cafe wants to buy an ad on the boards. That's just business.

The Penguins would be foolish to reject any business. They're already missing millions because Giant Eagle won't do business with them over a personal issue with Craig Patrick.
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Postby Draftnik on Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:19 pm

Marshall Dylan wrote:One more time: Boycotting Station Square means far less to Forest City than it does to the people who lease space there. Did it ever occur to anyone that the Penguins may do business with some of the Station Square tenants for things like advertising and sponsorship?


Forest City must be turned into a pariah. They gave Rendell the $170K bribe. Doing business with them (and by extension their tenants) is not in the best interest of Pens fans because they put the fix in.

A Giant Eagle sponsorship is not worth millions to the Pens. Retail space is not sold as storage space. "Information tables" in high traffic areas is a 1960s strategy in a digital era. On the off chance there is anybody at Station Square negotiating a new sponsorship with the Pens it would be for their final season in Pittsburgh assuming the Forest City jackals, Rendell, etc prevent the Pens from getting a new arena so why would Pens fans care about sponsorships for a team leaving town?
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