Official GDT - Pens @ Lightning - 12/10/16

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Re: Official GDT - Pens @ Lightning - 12/10/16

Postby Skatingpen on Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:34 am

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:Again, while of course I'd like to see a little more goal-scoring from Hagelin. If that's what you're focusing on, you don't really get what he brings.



Agree 100%
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Re: Official GDT - Pens @ Lightning - 12/10/16

Postby Steve on Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:37 am

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:I get the joke behind comparing Hagelin to Koltzov, but if you're seriously comparing them I don't think you really get Hagelin. Hagelin was ten times the skill Koltzov did. Koltzov was SPEED and pretty much nothing else.

Hagelin is a way above average defensive player and his skills with the puck are more than just a simply role player.

EDIT:
I think some people still miss what kind of players you need with Sid and Hornqvist. Yes, you need some high-end top-six players like Kessel and Hornqvist, but you also need simpler players who UNDERSTAND how to create time and space. Hagelin is perfect for this. Remember Dupuis?


The Duper comparison is a good one- the Pens were missing something whenever he wasn't in the lineup. Hagelin isn't exactly the same type of player but he does add alot of the same things. Also there was instant chemistry between Hagelin and Kessel.

The Hagelin production criticism is warranted, but I'm assuming any Hagelin-Koltzov comparison is just a joke about Hagelin not scoring this season. Koltzov was good on the PK and was so fast, and that's pretty much the end of that comparison. Koltzov was basically a good AHL player who carved out 12 career NHL goals thanks to playing on some poor Penguins teams. He would be buried in Wilkes-Barre if he were playing now.
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Re: Official GDT - Pens @ Lightning - 12/10/16

Postby FLPensFan on Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:36 am

I'm not outright stating moving Hagelin.....but, people do realize there are other guys who have speed that are good defensively and are more consistent offensively, right? Cause sometimes, I really get the feeling many think he's the ONLY guy.

For Carl Hagelin to be getting 4M a year, if he's not scoring, he better be spot on in all the other areas. He's not right now.
Nick Bonino, if he's looking for 4M plus a year, he flat out cannot be this useless from October to February. And he needs to be doing the little things great, he's not right now.

My main point on a lot of these guys is, yes, they were great last year, yes they helped win the Cup, but don't take that to mean that there is nobody else in the league that could do it better, or mesh better, or do it better for cheaper. I'd love to see the Penguins get a good quality top 6 winger for Malkin, and swap Kessel and Rust, because I think this team is much more dangerous if Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel are all producing on different lines.
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Re: Official GDT - Pens @ Lightning - 12/10/16

Postby thehockeyguru on Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:57 am

FLPensFan wrote:I'm not outright stating moving Hagelin.....but, people do realize there are other guys who have speed that are good defensively and are more consistent offensively, right? Cause sometimes, I really get the feeling many think he's the ONLY guy.

For Carl Hagelin to be getting 4M a year, if he's not scoring, he better be spot on in all the other areas. He's not right now.
Nick Bonino, if he's looking for 4M plus a year, he flat out cannot be this useless from October to February. And he needs to be doing the little things great, he's not right now.

My main point on a lot of these guys is, yes, they were great last year, yes they helped win the Cup, but don't take that to mean that there is nobody else in the league that could do it better, or mesh better, or do it better for cheaper. I'd love to see the Penguins get a good quality top 6 winger for Malkin, and swap Kessel and Rust, because I think this team is much more dangerous if Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel are all producing on different lines.


Have you seen the production that Grabner is putting out this season at 1.65M? He would have been a perfect fit for the Pens. He is making under half of what Hagelin makes. There are those type of players out there.
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Re: Official GDT - Pens @ Lightning - 12/10/16

Postby Hot Dog Vendor on Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:15 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:I'm not outright stating moving Hagelin.....but, people do realize there are other guys who have speed that are good defensively and are more consistent offensively, right? Cause sometimes, I really get the feeling many think he's the ONLY guy.

For Carl Hagelin to be getting 4M a year, if he's not scoring, he better be spot on in all the other areas. He's not right now.
Nick Bonino, if he's looking for 4M plus a year, he flat out cannot be this useless from October to February. And he needs to be doing the little things great, he's not right now.

My main point on a lot of these guys is, yes, they were great last year, yes they helped win the Cup, but don't take that to mean that there is nobody else in the league that could do it better, or mesh better, or do it better for cheaper. I'd love to see the Penguins get a good quality top 6 winger for Malkin, and swap Kessel and Rust, because I think this team is much more dangerous if Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel are all producing on different lines.


Have you seen the production that Grabner is putting out this season at 1.65M? He would have been a perfect fit for the Pens. He is making under half of what Hagelin makes. There are those type of players out there.


To be fair, nobody expected anything like this out of Grabner. Hence, the $1.65m salary. For someone who is EXPECTED to produce as Grabner has this season, you'd be looking at something more like $4.65m. And that would still be considered a bargain.
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Re: Official GDT - Pens @ Lightning - 12/10/16

Postby Southern Fan on Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:16 pm

I know. Grabner is having a good year. But who knew that would happen.
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Re: Official GDT - Pens @ Lightning - 12/10/16

Postby Pitts on Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:32 pm

FLPensFan wrote:I'm not outright stating moving Hagelin.....but, people do realize there are other guys who have speed that are good defensively and are more consistent offensively, right? Cause sometimes, I really get the feeling many think he's the ONLY guy.

For Carl Hagelin to be getting 4M a year, if he's not scoring, he better be spot on in all the other areas. He's not right now.
Nick Bonino, if he's looking for 4M plus a year, he flat out cannot be this useless from October to February. And he needs to be doing the little things great, he's not right now.

My main point on a lot of these guys is, yes, they were great last year, yes they helped win the Cup, but don't take that to mean that there is nobody else in the league that could do it better, or mesh better, or do it better for cheaper. I'd love to see the Penguins get a good quality top 6 winger for Malkin, and swap Kessel and Rust, because I think this team is much more dangerous if Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel are all producing on different lines.

The problem is, you another party to tango with. You think another team is going to just give you a better scorer because you want one?

I thought Hagelin was pretty noticeable last night in a GOOD way. His speed was clearly helping to regain the puck and/or keep the play alive. He also had some great plays down low feeding the puck in front. I think Geno missed on 2 or 3 of those feeds. Both Geno and Kessel have commented about how much he and his speed help them both gain open space to create more plays.

So, you move him for a better scorer - how do you know the obvious chemistry that Hagelin shows with his line mates will be there with your new guy? The old line, "Don't fix what ain't broken" seems to apply here.
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Re: Official GDT - Pens @ Lightning - 12/10/16

Postby thehockeyguru on Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:34 pm

Southern Fan wrote:I know. Grabner is having a good year. But who knew that would happen.


Grabner has scored over 20 goals twice, once over 30. Hagelin hasnt topped 20 goals once. When comparing the two its clear that Grabner has more offensive upside.
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Re: Official GDT - Pens @ Lightning - 12/10/16

Postby Pitts on Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:39 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
Southern Fan wrote:I know. Grabner is having a good year. But who knew that would happen.


Grabner has scored over 20 goals twice, once over 30. Hagelin hasnt topped 20 goals once. When comparing the two its clear that Grabner has more offensive upside.

Actually, if you look at the numbers side by side, Hagelin is much more consistent of a scorer. Grabner had 34 (2011), 20 (2012), then a continuous drop off in goals since. Hagelin has averaged ~13-14 per every year since breaking into the league.
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Re: Official GDT - Pens @ Lightning - 12/10/16

Postby thehockeyguru on Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:54 pm

Pitts wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Southern Fan wrote:I know. Grabner is having a good year. But who knew that would happen.


Grabner has scored over 20 goals twice, once over 30. Hagelin hasnt topped 20 goals once. When comparing the two its clear that Grabner has more offensive upside.

Actually, if you look at the numbers side by side, Hagelin is much more consistent of a scorer. Grabner had 34 (2011), 20 (2012), then a continuous drop off in goals since. Hagelin has averaged ~13-14 per every year since breaking into the league.


Saying he consistently doesn't produce shouldn't be a positive. Players who consistent score less than 20 goals and 40 points aren't worth 4M a season, regardless of their intangibles.
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Re: Official GDT - Pens @ Lightning - 12/10/16

Postby Hot Dog Vendor on Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:17 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
Pitts wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Southern Fan wrote:I know. Grabner is having a good year. But who knew that would happen.


Grabner has scored over 20 goals twice, once over 30. Hagelin hasnt topped 20 goals once. When comparing the two its clear that Grabner has more offensive upside.

Actually, if you look at the numbers side by side, Hagelin is much more consistent of a scorer. Grabner had 34 (2011), 20 (2012), then a continuous drop off in goals since. Hagelin has averaged ~13-14 per every year since breaking into the league.


Saying he consistently doesn't produce shouldn't be a positive. Players who consistent score less than 20 goals and 40 points aren't worth 4M a season, regardless of their intangibles.


You mean........like Michael Grabner?
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Re: Official GDT - Pens @ Lightning - 12/10/16

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:39 pm

Pitts wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:I'm not outright stating moving Hagelin.....but, people do realize there are other guys who have speed that are good defensively and are more consistent offensively, right? Cause sometimes, I really get the feeling many think he's the ONLY guy.

For Carl Hagelin to be getting 4M a year, if he's not scoring, he better be spot on in all the other areas. He's not right now.
Nick Bonino, if he's looking for 4M plus a year, he flat out cannot be this useless from October to February. And he needs to be doing the little things great, he's not right now.

My main point on a lot of these guys is, yes, they were great last year, yes they helped win the Cup, but don't take that to mean that there is nobody else in the league that could do it better, or mesh better, or do it better for cheaper. I'd love to see the Penguins get a good quality top 6 winger for Malkin, and swap Kessel and Rust, because I think this team is much more dangerous if Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel are all producing on different lines.

The problem is, you another party to tango with. You think another team is going to just give you a better scorer because you want one?

I thought Hagelin was pretty noticeable last night in a GOOD way. His speed was clearly helping to regain the puck and/or keep the play alive. He also had some great plays down low feeding the puck in front. I think Geno missed on 2 or 3 of those feeds. Both Geno and Kessel have commented about how much he and his speed help them both gain open space to create more plays.

So, you move him for a better scorer - how do you know the obvious chemistry that Hagelin shows with his line mates will be there with your new guy? The old line, "Don't fix what ain't broken" seems to apply here.


There are other aspects to pairing players with Sid and/or Geno and this may sound silly to some, but you don't necessarily need/want players who are prolific goal-scorers. Players need to understand their roles while playing with those guys. Sid and Geno need an aspect of just being there to create room and help facilitate them doing their thing.

Creating room isn't as easy as it sounds. You need a decent hockey IQ, you need a certain amount of speed, you need a decent degree of creating turnovers/takeaways. Sid and Geno need a supporting cast and sometimes that comes at a price.
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Re: Official GDT - Pens @ Lightning - 12/10/16

Postby Pitts on Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:02 pm

Hot Dog Vendor wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Pitts wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Southern Fan wrote:I know. Grabner is having a good year. But who knew that would happen.


Grabner has scored over 20 goals twice, once over 30. Hagelin hasnt topped 20 goals once. When comparing the two its clear that Grabner has more offensive upside.

Actually, if you look at the numbers side by side, Hagelin is much more consistent of a scorer. Grabner had 34 (2011), 20 (2012), then a continuous drop off in goals since. Hagelin has averaged ~13-14 per every year since breaking into the league.


Saying he consistently doesn't produce shouldn't be a positive. Players who consistent score less than 20 goals and 40 points aren't worth 4M a season, regardless of their intangibles.


You mean........like Michael Grabner?

Michael Grabner career +10, pts, 190, Carl Hagelin career +71, pts 179. I think there are other attributes beside scoring goals that should account for a person's paycheck. Grabner has only 11 more points than Hagelin and played 2 more season than Hags, and Hags is a +61 over him. Just not seeing how much better Grabner is. I guess if you want to cheap out, you get more goals than assists, but quite a few more minuses.
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Re: Official GDT - Pens @ Lightning - 12/10/16

Postby Hot Dog Vendor on Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:24 pm

Pitts wrote:Michael Grabner career +10, pts, 190, Carl Hagelin career +71, pts 179. I think there are other attributes beside scoring goals that should account for a person's paycheck. Grabner has only 11 more points than Hagelin and played 2 more season than Hags, and Hags is a +61 over him. Just not seeing how much better Grabner is. I guess if you want to cheap out, you get more goals than assists, but quite a few more minuses.


That was my point.
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Re: Official GDT - Pens @ Lightning - 12/10/16

Postby Pitts on Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:01 am

Hot Dog Vendor wrote:
Pitts wrote:Michael Grabner career +10, pts, 190, Carl Hagelin career +71, pts 179. I think there are other attributes beside scoring goals that should account for a person's paycheck. Grabner has only 11 more points than Hagelin and played 2 more season than Hags, and Hags is a +61 over him. Just not seeing how much better Grabner is. I guess if you want to cheap out, you get more goals than assists, but quite a few more minuses.


That was my point.

Oh, I know. I was agreeing with you. Just giving more support to my initial point.
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