Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:54 am

I see two options at this point......be buyers, make moves to clear some cap space, and acquire a legit 3C and a LW.......or be sellers, begin determining what pieces you are willing to sell off for picks and NHL ready prospects.

On the buyer front, hope to god Rick Tocchet likes Hagelin. Go after Duclair. Offer Hagelin, a 2nd/3rd, and if needed, add in a mid-level prospect. Hagelin for Duclair is a gain of 2.8M in cap space. That alone gives the Penguins more flexibility in calling up some other forwards from WBS, like ZAR, DiPauli, or Blueger. Second move is dealing Cole and a pick for a 3C. Try for Bozak for Cole and a 2nd. Gotta find a legit 3C stat. He may be a rental, but there is always a possibility that they could resign him if they like what they see.

On the seller front, Cole, Hunwick, Hagelin, Hornqvist, Kuhnhackl, Reaves, Sheahan (if you can't resign him for cheaper), and maybe Sheary, should all be shopped. Hornqvist would instantly become the top winger rental likely available. The guy is a 2-time cup champion, and a playoff warrior. I think most teams would line up for him over Kane. Hornqvist should be able to get you a 1st and a A/B level prospect. Sheary might be able to get some picks or prospects in return. He isnt a must move though. Hagelin, Cole, and Hornqvist are, especially if there is no chance to resign the last two.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Defence21 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:10 am

FLPensFan wrote:I see two options at this point......be buyers, make moves to clear some cap space, and acquire a legit 3C and a LW.......or be sellers, begin determining what pieces you are willing to sell off for picks and NHL ready prospects.

On the buyer front, hope to god Rick Tocchet likes Hagelin. Go after Duclair. Offer Hagelin, a 2nd/3rd, and if needed, add in a mid-level prospect. Hagelin for Duclair is a gain of 2.8M in cap space. That alone gives the Penguins more flexibility in calling up some other forwards from WBS, like ZAR, DiPauli, or Blueger. Second move is dealing Cole and a pick for a 3C. Try for Bozak for Cole and a 2nd. Gotta find a legit 3C stat. He may be a rental, but there is always a possibility that they could resign him if they like what they see.

On the seller front, Cole, Hunwick, Hagelin, Hornqvist, Kuhnhackl, Reaves, Sheahan (if you can't resign him for cheaper), and maybe Sheary, should all be shopped. Hornqvist would instantly become the top winger rental likely available. The guy is a 2-time cup champion, and a playoff warrior. I think most teams would line up for him over Kane. Hornqvist should be able to get you a 1st and a A/B level prospect. Sheary might be able to get some picks or prospects in return. He isnt a must move though. Hagelin, Cole, and Hornqvist are, especially if there is no chance to resign the last two.

It's fine to speculate about who the Pens should sell if they were to become sellers. What's important to note, though, is that they are not going to become sellers. Period.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:25 am

Defence21 wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:I see two options at this point......be buyers, make moves to clear some cap space, and acquire a legit 3C and a LW.......or be sellers, begin determining what pieces you are willing to sell off for picks and NHL ready prospects.

On the buyer front, hope to god Rick Tocchet likes Hagelin. Go after Duclair. Offer Hagelin, a 2nd/3rd, and if needed, add in a mid-level prospect. Hagelin for Duclair is a gain of 2.8M in cap space. That alone gives the Penguins more flexibility in calling up some other forwards from WBS, like ZAR, DiPauli, or Blueger. Second move is dealing Cole and a pick for a 3C. Try for Bozak for Cole and a 2nd. Gotta find a legit 3C stat. He may be a rental, but there is always a possibility that they could resign him if they like what they see.

On the seller front, Cole, Hunwick, Hagelin, Hornqvist, Kuhnhackl, Reaves, Sheahan (if you can't resign him for cheaper), and maybe Sheary, should all be shopped. Hornqvist would instantly become the top winger rental likely available. The guy is a 2-time cup champion, and a playoff warrior. I think most teams would line up for him over Kane. Hornqvist should be able to get you a 1st and a A/B level prospect. Sheary might be able to get some picks or prospects in return. He isnt a must move though. Hagelin, Cole, and Hornqvist are, especially if there is no chance to resign the last two.

It's fine to speculate about who the Pens should sell if they were to become sellers. What's important to note, though, is that they are not going to become sellers. Period.

As I said before, if the Penguins are out of the playoffs, and down to maybe a 20% chance to make them come the trade deadline.......and they don't move pieces, Rutherford should be fired. PERIOD. If they know they can't resign Hornqvist, and they aren't going to make the playoffs, not restocking for next season is Edmonton GM level stupid.

I agree, I really can't see Lemieux/Burkle accepting this team missing the playoffs, but the narrative has gone on for months, and nothing is happening. Either teams won't trade with Rutherford, or the prices are too high and the Penguins don't have the assets.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Defence21 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:56 am

FLPensFan wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:I see two options at this point......be buyers, make moves to clear some cap space, and acquire a legit 3C and a LW.......or be sellers, begin determining what pieces you are willing to sell off for picks and NHL ready prospects.

On the buyer front, hope to god Rick Tocchet likes Hagelin. Go after Duclair. Offer Hagelin, a 2nd/3rd, and if needed, add in a mid-level prospect. Hagelin for Duclair is a gain of 2.8M in cap space. That alone gives the Penguins more flexibility in calling up some other forwards from WBS, like ZAR, DiPauli, or Blueger. Second move is dealing Cole and a pick for a 3C. Try for Bozak for Cole and a 2nd. Gotta find a legit 3C stat. He may be a rental, but there is always a possibility that they could resign him if they like what they see.

On the seller front, Cole, Hunwick, Hagelin, Hornqvist, Kuhnhackl, Reaves, Sheahan (if you can't resign him for cheaper), and maybe Sheary, should all be shopped. Hornqvist would instantly become the top winger rental likely available. The guy is a 2-time cup champion, and a playoff warrior. I think most teams would line up for him over Kane. Hornqvist should be able to get you a 1st and a A/B level prospect. Sheary might be able to get some picks or prospects in return. He isnt a must move though. Hagelin, Cole, and Hornqvist are, especially if there is no chance to resign the last two.

It's fine to speculate about who the Pens should sell if they were to become sellers. What's important to note, though, is that they are not going to become sellers. Period.

As I said before, if the Penguins are out of the playoffs, and down to maybe a 20% chance to make them come the trade deadline.......and they don't move pieces, Rutherford should be fired. PERIOD. If they know they can't resign Hornqvist, and they aren't going to make the playoffs, not restocking for next season is Edmonton GM level stupid.

I agree, I really can't see Lemieux/Burkle accepting this team missing the playoffs, but the narrative has gone on for months, and nothing is happening. Either teams won't trade with Rutherford, or the prices are too high and the Penguins don't have the assets.

There's a very high chance that if Rutherford should sell, but doesn't, it's an order from above.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby IntangibleBeer on Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:43 pm

theblackarts wrote:I'm really not sure this team needs some random trade to "shake things up." They just won back to back cups. They know how to win. I think they're just unmotivated honestly. If we were to trade for like, Patrick Kane, that'd probably get them fired up, but short of that, I don't know if a trade is the answer. I think missing the playoffs and some moves over the summer would be more fruitful.


This! :thumb:

I do think there is some long term fatigue setting in, as well as a huge lack of motivation. If the mediocre play continues and they fail to accumulate enough points in the next 8 game segment, it's time to bring up some more youth and see what's in the cupboard. Let the youth play themselves into NHL level. I see no value in moving major assets to squeak into the playoffs - at this point we will lose in the first round.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Great58 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:51 pm

FLPensFan wrote:This is from a blog/article this morning from a known Pittsburgh media person, and I would say this fairly accurately describes the Penguins situation:

===========================================================================
The Pittsburgh Penguins and General Manager Jim Rutherford’s inaction has caught up with them. Months of waiting for better options at center, and taking the easy path at the expense of hard choices is now strangling the Penguins season. Look no further than the line shuffling and lack of a legitimate Penguins lineup, Thursday night.

The Penguins struggles are not a “Cup Hangover” or the result of fatigue. Those are excuses. The Penguins struggles are the result of not enough good players. They’ve assembled an ineffective third line, non-existent fourth line, a mistake-prone blue line which makes a lot of money, and a lack of productive left wings.

Now, add a lack of centers to the list.
================================================================================
I'll add that, a year or two ago, when Sheary, Wilson, Rust, and Kuhnhackl came up, I warned about the statistical chance of ALL of those guys continuing on their past production path. It looks like it has just taken an extra year for that to start happening. Wilson and Kuhnhackl started to fall off last year. Rust has been so-so this year. Sheary is still the best of the bunch, but even his overall production is down, his production is cut almost in half from last year (53 points last year, on pace for about 31 points this year).


I don't buy the Rutherford criticism as stated here, that's he's taken the easy road. I think we first need to praise him that he didn't enter into any dead weight contracts in an attempt to hang on to last year's performance. He could have buffered their current performance decline by retaining some of them, but at much greater cost, long term. Then I think we need to praise him for not giving up everything to get Matt Duschene, who's looking to fall below his 41 point performance of last season. With the possible exception of picking up Reaves, I think his trades this season have been net positive. Maybe boring, but subtle improvements. He hasn't landed a viable 3C, but I don't think that's due to lack of trying. If a hockey trade's not there, what's the alternative? Should the Pens overspend in their trades offers to get this done? Creating further turnover of the roster MAY be helpful, but it depends on the ask. Or maybe the retooling proves to be too difficult to be done on the fly in one season's time. 3 Cups in a row would be amazing, but so would 3 in 4, or 3 in 5 years. Rutherford has to play both the short and long term games, something he may not be getting consideration or credit for with this critique.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby NJ5934 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:11 pm

No way there should be any thought of trading Hornqvist, none. We have NOBODY that does what he does. I don't care how old he is or what kinda raise he'll be due...nobody competes like he does and losing him at this point would be turning even further in the WRONG direction.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby lemieuxReturns on Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:15 pm

NJ5934 wrote:No way there should be any thought of trading Hornqvist, none. We have NOBODY that does what he does. I don't care how old he is or what kinda raise he'll be due...nobody competes like he does and losing him at this point would be turning even further in the WRONG direction.


So you think the Penguins should re-sign him then? I also believe they should re-sign him. He is a very important piece to the Penguins. HOWEVER, what we are all talking about here is IF JR does not believe in re-signing him, THEN we need to trade him at the deadline.

Again... I think all of us want to re-sign Hornqvist, BUT if JR does not have any plans on re-signing him THEN he needs to get assets for him at the deadline. He does the Penguins no good on this sinking ship.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Great58 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:20 pm

I don't know that I want to pay 72 north of $5M or longer than 3 years, both of which I believe he will want. Maybe I'm wrong though.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby NJ5934 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:24 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:
NJ5934 wrote:No way there should be any thought of trading Hornqvist, none. We have NOBODY that does what he does. I don't care how old he is or what kinda raise he'll be due...nobody competes like he does and losing him at this point would be turning even further in the WRONG direction.


So you think the Penguins should re-sign him then? I also believe they should re-sign him. He is a very important piece to the Penguins. HOWEVER, what we are all talking about here is IF JR does not believe in re-signing him, THEN we need to trade him at the deadline.

Again... I think all of us want to re-sign Hornqvist, BUT if JR does not have any plans on re-signing him THEN he needs to get assets for him at the deadline. He does the Penguins no good on this sinking ship.


You know, if for whatever reason GMJR has decided he's not in the long-term plans then that's his call whether or not he gets an asset in return....but I think not resigning him would be a huge setback. Whether it's just the overall amount of hockey we've played, or if it's just the reality of 87, 71 and 81 getting a year older...i don't know...but this team looks slower and more "perimeter" than it has in a few years. I don't think perimeter hockey is going to make us successful and right now, particularly with Rust down, Hornqvist is the only body that defies the direction this team seems to be heading. He would be pretty much untouchable on my list.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:26 pm

Great58 wrote:I don't know that I want to pay 72 north of $5M or longer than 3 years, both of which I believe he will want. Maybe I'm wrong though.

No, I think you are quite right. 6M for 5 years seems to be the early indications of what he is looking for. He's won 2 cups, he scores in the playoffs, this is likely his last big contract. He can get paid if he chooses to leave.

$$$ amount I am a bit more flexible. 5-5.5M is where I would want to be at, and really 6M is kind of a final threshold for me, but, can't go longer than 3 years. Just can't take the risk with the type of game he plays. The Andrew Ladd and David Backes contracts and performance to date should be enough to make anyone take a hard pause before giving Hornqvist more than 3 years.

So that's where I stand. If Rutherford has talks with his agents, and they are firm that 72 wants 4-5 years on his next contract, if we are not going to make the playoffs, he has to be moved. No ifs, ands or buts.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby dark_forces on Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:56 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Great58 wrote:I don't know that I want to pay 72 north of $5M or longer than 3 years, both of which I believe he will want. Maybe I'm wrong though.

No, I think you are quite right. 6M for 5 years seems to be the early indications of what he is looking for. He's won 2 cups, he scores in the playoffs, this is likely his last big contract. He can get paid if he chooses to leave.

$$$ amount I am a bit more flexible. 5-5.5M is where I would want to be at, and really 6M is kind of a final threshold for me, but, can't go longer than 3 years. Just can't take the risk with the type of game he plays. The Andrew Ladd and David Backes contracts and performance to date should be enough to make anyone take a hard pause before giving Hornqvist more than 3 years.

So that's where I stand. If Rutherford has talks with his agents, and they are firm that 72 wants 4-5 years on his next contract, if we are not going to make the playoffs, he has to be moved. No ifs, ands or buts.


I could see 22 million over 4 years if they end up retaining him. But, I think he would want to actually test the market. I could easily see the Rangers making play for him.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:11 pm

I love Horny but I am getting this Greg Lloyd type vibe when I think of him. The Steelers have always had this feel for when a guy was done even though it looked like they had a lot left. Horny's all in way of playing can't last forever. I would probably let him go unless he took a bargain contract.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Steve Dave on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:39 pm

Thing with Horny, I’m not so sure Pens win the Cup last year without him. So if that were to be true, and he is let go and signs with a division rival, imagine how hard it would be to win another in the next couple years.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Steve Dave on Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:40 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Great58 wrote:I don't know that I want to pay 72 north of $5M or longer than 3 years, both of which I believe he will want. Maybe I'm wrong though.

No, I think you are quite right. 6M for 5 years seems to be the early indications of what he is looking for. He's won 2 cups, he scores in the playoffs, this is likely his last big contract. He can get paid if he chooses to leave.

$$$ amount I am a bit more flexible. 5-5.5M is where I would want to be at, and really 6M is kind of a final threshold for me, but, can't go longer than 3 years. Just can't take the risk with the type of game he plays. The Andrew Ladd and David Backes contracts and performance to date should be enough to make anyone take a hard pause before giving Hornqvist more than 3 years.

So that's where I stand. If Rutherford has talks with his agents, and they are firm that 72 wants 4-5 years on his next contract, if we are not going to make the playoffs, he has to be moved. No ifs, ands or buts.

Or coconuts.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:52 pm

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:I love Horny but I am getting this Greg Lloyd type vibe when I think of him. The Steelers have always had this feel for when a guy was done even though it looked like they had a lot left. Horny's all in way of playing can't last forever. I would probably let him go unless he took a bargain contract.

He doesn't need to take a bargain cut. He really shouldn't be taking any type of cut. He has played well, and he has played consistent. Zero reason for him to go lower on his next contract.

Hornqvist signed his current contract with the Preds after the 2012-2013 season. He had 14 points in 24 games that season (he was injured), but the two seasons prior he had 43 and 48 points, 27 and 21 goals. Since signing his current contract,he has 4 straight 20 goal seasons (this year should be his 5th straight) and 3 of 4 seasons above 50 points (44 last year was his low). That's consistency at its best.

He should get a raise. What he should not get by any smart team, knowing his style of play, is a contract more than 3 years.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:54 pm

Steve Dave wrote:Thing with Horny, I’m not so sure Pens win the Cup last year without him. So if that were to be true, and he is let go and signs with a division rival, imagine how hard it would be to win another in the next couple years.

I don't think they do, and I would strongly prefer to keep him, but, he has to want to stay, and he'd have to be willing to take less. I just posted his numbers, and how consistent he has been. There's really little reason he should be forced to take a pay cut, he has been so consistent. 20 goals, 40 to 50 points every season.

So, if he asks for 7M for 3 years, you can't do that, even if it means he goes to a division rival.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:55 pm

In Yohe's Q&A today on the Athletic, he indicated that it is kind of quiet right now, in terms of info getting out on who Penguins could be looking at. He did confirm, however, that the Penguins definitely DO HAVE interest in Evander Kane, and have for some time. Doubtful they have the pieces to get him, even as a rental, but there is interest there.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:06 pm

Another Yohe tidbit about the infamous Sid captaincy revolt. Someone had asked about Yohe's favorite Malkin moment:

It was 2011. Crosby was still out with the concussion and had been out for the better part of a year. There was a now infamous meeting in the Penguins' locker room. On one side stood Brooks Orpik, Jordan Staal, Craig Adams and Matt Cooke. Those four were exploring the possibility of naming someone else team captain until Crosby came back. On the other side of the debate were Marc-Andre Fleury, Malkin, Pascal Dupuis and Arron Asham. A rather heated discussion broke out. At the end, Malkin made his point clear: “Guys. Sid is the f****** captain.” Then he left the room. And the conversation was over.

I had heard of Cooke, Orpik, and Adams on the side of electing a new captain, but this is the first time I ever heard Staal in that group. Makes you wonder if there was any animosity between Sid and Jordan, because Staal was traded that summer.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Jim on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:11 pm

Three points
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby lemieuxReturns on Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:19 am

FLPensFan wrote:Another Yohe tidbit about the infamous Sid captaincy revolt. Someone had asked about Yohe's favorite Malkin moment:

It was 2011. Crosby was still out with the concussion and had been out for the better part of a year. There was a now infamous meeting in the Penguins' locker room. On one side stood Brooks Orpik, Jordan Staal, Craig Adams and Matt Cooke. Those four were exploring the possibility of naming someone else team captain until Crosby came back. On the other side of the debate were Marc-Andre Fleury, Malkin, Pascal Dupuis and Arron Asham. A rather heated discussion broke out. At the end, Malkin made his point clear: “Guys. Sid is the f****** captain.” Then he left the room. And the conversation was over.

I had heard of Cooke, Orpik, and Adams on the side of electing a new captain, but this is the first time I ever heard Staal in that group. Makes you wonder if there was any animosity between Sid and Jordan, because Staal was traded that summer.


Sid was one of the few at the wedding, so I am not sure if there was any. Either way, kind of d-bagy of Jordan.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby lemieuxReturns on Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:50 am

Interest in Kane just doesn't make sense. We need a center.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Faubert5 on Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:14 am

lemieuxReturns wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Another Yohe tidbit about the infamous Sid captaincy revolt. Someone had asked about Yohe's favorite Malkin moment:

It was 2011. Crosby was still out with the concussion and had been out for the better part of a year. There was a now infamous meeting in the Penguins' locker room. On one side stood Brooks Orpik, Jordan Staal, Craig Adams and Matt Cooke. Those four were exploring the possibility of naming someone else team captain until Crosby came back. On the other side of the debate were Marc-Andre Fleury, Malkin, Pascal Dupuis and Arron Asham. A rather heated discussion broke out. At the end, Malkin made his point clear: “Guys. Sid is the f****** captain.” Then he left the room. And the conversation was over.

I had heard of Cooke, Orpik, and Adams on the side of electing a new captain, but this is the first time I ever heard Staal in that group. Makes you wonder if there was any animosity between Sid and Jordan, because Staal was traded that summer.


Sid was one of the few at the wedding, so I am not sure if there was any. Either way, kind of d-bagy of Jordan.

I don't know about animosity but there was almost no chance of the Pens retaining Staal given the salary cap and his desire to be a top two center and to play with one of his brothers. I almost added "did you know there are several Staal brothers in the NHL" but I guess even the media are tired of saying it.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Faubert5 on Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:21 am

lemieuxReturns wrote:Interest in Kane just doesn't make sense. We need a center.

A third center and maybe some more depth on defense and I'd like this team's chances to get to the playoffs and make some noise. That would hinge on our core stars playing like stars and solid net minding.

Defense is decent when healthy but how long does that ever last? A better 7 and 8 would be helpful and more consistently smart play would be nice. I thought Letang looked as good last night defensively as he has in a while and made fewer mistakes with the puck.

I wouldn't mortgage the future (i.e. give up the first or one of our top prospects) but some pieces to at least give these guys a shot at the playoffs would be okay. Let's see if I still think this after the Boston game Sunday.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby IntangibleBeer on Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:29 pm

Hey that Sprong kid! :thumb: Might actually be able to play, eh? :lol:

Now is Guentzel actually going to cut it at 3C? Would be nice. Jury is still out.

Boston will be an acid test for this team, both in terms of desire and pieces fitting into place.
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