Staal stays, but what else is needed to make playoffs?

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Postby Pitts on Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:55 pm

Defence21 wrote:
yeltzen wrote:
Pitts wrote:As has been said, number one is a goal scorer, pure and simple. DelPen stole my thunder. I would like to see Malione moved for another prospect or player who is underperforming where he is and could possibly come in and be that scoring gem they are missing on the top line. Ultimately, I'd love to get a wing for Crosby, so we can move Malkin back to center on line 2. Maybe Staal will finally get a chance at #1 left wing now. I guess my point is, we need a more balanced scoring attack.

Once Petrovicky is healthy, Talbot may most likely go back down because I think Thornburn is here to stay. No way should they waive him after the weekend he just had.

On defense, I think Welch will go back down if they do not move a dman or two once Orpik and Cairns come back.

If they send Talbot down they need kicked in the junk.

Yeah, I'm with you. He's the protypical fourth line center for this team.

Well, I agree with you both, but I think, at this time, Talbot may fall victinm to the numbers game. I think he's about the only forward who will not have to clear waivers. I see some trades in our future.
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Postby psubar12 on Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:57 pm

The Pens need three things to really be a solid playoff team.

1) It was stated before, but the Pens need a backup goalie

2) One more solid, penalty-killing defenseman. I think the Pens have lots of good penalty-killing forwards now, but they really need one more defenseman back there with Eaton. Right now, Gonchar, Whitney, Melichar and Scuderi are getting too much time on the PK to make me feel comfortable. MAF has really had to stand on his head a few times during the PK. I don't think Orpik will be the guy either, unless he has improved quite a bit. Scuderi is our second best PK defenseman right now, and that's not good enough.

3) The Pens need a scoring winger for their second line. If Malkin and Crosby continue to play on the first line (I think they should for now), they will get their points. The second line is the line that takes the hit when Malkin goes to play on the first line. Right now, our second line is made up of players best suited for a third line (granted, a good third line, but not a line that specializes in scoring). Staal, Colby, Recchi, Ekman, and whoever else gets to play on the second line are not going to threaten to score very often. Teams with exceptional defense (Buffalo, Carolina etc.) will be able to throw all their good defenders at the Crosby and Malkin line. Actually, the best move would be to get a winger who is fast and aggressive to draw penalties.

I do think Shero will make some moves, but not until the trade deadline. If I remember correctly, Shero did state that he would try to get a scoring winger at the deadline if the team were in the playoff hunt. A backup goalie and a PK defenseman shouldn't be that hard to find. I expect the Pens to get to the playoffs as a 4-6 seed and then make a push for the Prince of Wales.
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Postby Ginger on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:09 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
HomerPenguin wrote:What's the point of this post exactly? Shero isn't going to listen to this board when he makes roster decisions.

Thanks for policing my posts -- I'll be sure to ask permission from you before I start another thread that won't be looked at by Shero or any other official within the Penguin organization. I can't believe that I was dumb enough to believe initiating a discussion was allowed on a discussion board.

:roll: and one more :roll:

What, you mean we're not supposed to police each other's posts for content? I thought asking permission before posting was mandatory!

(I'm making a point about the police, not about your post or this thread.)

While on the subject of points...what's yours? Where is it written that posters aren't supposed to speculate about hockey on a hockey board? Or open an idea for discussion? I must have missread the rules . Please point that out for me? I wouldn't want to waste your time reading something with no point.
1. Please keep the posts clean. Obscene or abusive language is not acceptable.
2. Personal attacks on posters of this board are also not acceptable. If you disagree with someone, please argue the point without resorting to name-calling.
3. If your post is derogatory toward other posters, inciteful for no reason, or fails any of the above conditions, I reserve the right to delete that message and the thread that follows in its entirety.
4. A pattern of improper posting may lead to you losing posting privileges.

You're not trying to incite anything? Image
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Postby yeltzen on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:11 pm

You guys are really bad at getting jokes.
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Postby freq019 on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:12 pm

a right handed defenseman so I don't have to watch whitney, scudichar and gonchar lob weak backhands up the boards and the middle on PK clearing attempts.
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Postby HomerPenguin on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:19 pm

Ginger wrote:
HomerPenguin wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
HomerPenguin wrote:What's the point of this post exactly? Shero isn't going to listen to this board when he makes roster decisions.

Thanks for policing my posts -- I'll be sure to ask permission from you before I start another thread that won't be looked at by Shero or any other official within the Penguin organization. I can't believe that I was dumb enough to believe initiating a discussion was allowed on a discussion board.

:roll: and one more :roll:

What, you mean we're not supposed to police each other's posts for content? I thought asking permission before posting was mandatory!

(I'm making a point about the police, not about your post or this thread.)

While on the subject of points...what's yours? Where is it written that posters aren't supposed to speculate about hockey on a hockey board? Or open an idea for discussion? I must have missread the rules . Please point that out for me? I wouldn't want to waste your time reading something with no point.
1. Please keep the posts clean. Obscene or abusive language is not acceptable.
2. Personal attacks on posters of this board are also not acceptable. If you disagree with someone, please argue the point without resorting to name-calling.
3. If your post is derogatory toward other posters, inciteful for no reason, or fails any of the above conditions, I reserve the right to delete that message and the thread that follows in its entirety.
4. A pattern of improper posting may lead to you losing posting privileges.

You're not trying to incite anything? Image

Apparently anything with more subtlety than a jackhammer is lost on some folks.
Last edited by HomerPenguin on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby gampy on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:21 pm

Hi Guys and girls, first post here.

First off, I am from Ontario, Canada, and usually follow and cheer for the Senators, but I have to say I have been really rooting for the Penguins this year. Can't wait to see them come up soon, so I can see them on the telly.

I don't know enough yet about the team to make an educated guess about what the team needs to be a playoff performer, but I will try to give you the advice of someone who has watched a team rise from nurturing draft picks, and slowly building itself into an elite team.

Keep Staal in the line-up. DO NOT send him to the bush leagues. Keep Crosby and Malkin together for the rest of the season, a la Spezza-Heatley.

I don't think you guys really need to go crazy on the free agent market, it is just completely a waste usually. The Pens have a high scoring line up front with 87 and 71, and secondary scoring from Staal and the leadership of Recci. Thibeault, in my eyes is ready for prime time I think. To borrow a military term..the team has..."Unit cohesion", I think. Develop that. I mean really, really work on the team you have now. General managers are paid to make trades, but it's really silly to **** with the team once it gets rolling.

Ottawa, year after year, would make free agent signings at, or close to the deadline, to get them play-off ready, but they always failed...always.

If you want to add some more grit, add a 4th line winger who can fight to protect your elites. That's about it. I say don't **** with the team...let it gel in the next 3 months. I think they would do very well in the playoffs as is. Those youngsters are VERY, VERY competitive. This isn't the NHL of yesteryear, when you need to have powerforwards like Bertuzzi, Lindros, etc. Plus, the only teams you need worry about really, are NJ. And they are not a big, rough, bunch. Brodeur is getting old, so your division is not too tough this year.

Go Pens Go!

P.S. I really hope the Pens do well this year and go deep in the playoffs.
Look forarrd to seeing them on TV soon. Cheers!
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Postby FLPensFan on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:41 pm

My wish list for continued Pens success and the Pens qualifying for the playoffs would be to make more moves within the organization, and as few outside moves as possible:

1. Continue playing to Therrien's system. It's working so far.

2. Get more even strength goals. They did it against Philly, but need to keep it going.

3. A solid backup goalie, which may be Thibault. I don't think Thibault has been given a fair chance to this point. He was good in preseason, and has played in half a game this year. He needs to get some playing time to prove that his hip injuries are behind him, and that he can be solid in net (ie, don't single handedly cost the game). If he can do that, I don't see a need to get another goalie.

4. At least 1, if not 2, right handed defensemen. Ideally, I'd like to see them get an NHL capable defenseman (even if it's a 5-6 guy) and a minor leaguer who has an above average shot at being able to contribute at the NHL level soon. Some guys have adapted better than others to the lack of a rightie on D, but in the playoffs, that could be an obvious weakness to expose.

5. Dump John LeClair as soon as they can get anything of value for him. Cash, a 7th rounder, etc. Maybe John will get things going, but right now, he has almost no value on this team. He's not fast enough to contribute quality minutes on top two lines, and he's not the right type of player for 3rd-4th line duty. He can't kill penalties, and he has yet to contribute on the PP. There's going to be a logjam of forwards soon, and while his veteran presence would be missed, I think he should be one of the odd-men out.

6. Ryan Whitney must improve his defense. I've been paying more attention to his D lately, and he definately could pick up his game. He may even deserve to be in the pressbox for a game or two when Orpik and Cairns return. The most common mistake I see him making consistently is leaving his spot in front of the net to wildly chase an attacker to know avail. He did this on Philly's opening goal Saturday, and on several other occassions. For as much as everyone complains about Scuderi, I see Scuderi playing better defensively at the moment.

7. The one trade I would make is for a proven goal scorer. Someone who consistently nets 25-30 goals a season. Oulette seems to be capable of filling in this role in the future, but we need proven guys. Malone's had 2 20 seasons, but has been very irratic, Recchi's falling off, Army hasn't produced much yet, Ekman needs to prove he doesn't need Thorton. This was my biggest question mark heading into the season. Too many ifs at wing.

8. A good plan for splitting up Crosby and Malkin. There's no way in my mind this team can be successful long-term with Crosby and Malkin together. At some point, a team will shut them down, or several teams will shut them down for a stretch, and the Pens will need to shuffle.
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Postby Ron` on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:46 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
HomerPenguin wrote:What's the point of this post exactly? Shero isn't going to listen to this board when he makes roster decisions.

Thanks for policing my posts -- I'll be sure to ask permission from you before I start another thread that won't be looked at by Shero or any other official within the Penguin organization. I can't believe that I was dumb enough to believe initiating a discussion was allowed on a discussion board.

:roll: and one more :roll:

What, you mean we're not supposed to police each other's posts for content? I thought asking permission before posting was mandatory!

(I'm making a point about the police, not about your post or this thread.)
Still at it huh? Did your mom pack your lunch today or did you ride the bus?
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Postby NJ5934 on Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:47 pm

What we need:

Brad Boyes
Andy Sutton
Matt Cooke

What we need to get rid of:

Ryan Malone
John Leclair
Mike Ouellet
Rob Scuderi
Mark Recchi

Lines as a result

Boyes Crosby Armstrong
Staal Malkin Ekman
Ruutu Moore Cooke
Roy Talbot Thorburn/Petrovicky

Gonchar Eaton
Whitney Sutton
Welch Orpik

Just my opinion.
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Postby André on Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:40 pm

NJ5934 wrote:What we need:

Brad Boyes
Andy Sutton
Matt Cooke

What we need to get rid of:

Ryan Malone
John Leclair
Mike Ouellet
Rob Scuderi
Mark Recchi

Lines as a result

Boyes Crosby Armstrong
Staal Malkin Ekman
Ruutu Moore Cooke
Roy Talbot Thorburn/Petrovicky

Gonchar Eaton
Whitney Sutton
Welch Orpik

Just my opinion.


That's not much better than right now. I'm starting to believe Pens really need to continue with their huge punch line. Ekman, Staal and Reechi are looking good as 2nd line anyway.

If we get a 1st line W bump Army to the third.
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Postby Defence21 on Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:57 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:Apparently anything with more subtlety than a jackhammer is lost on some folks.

Well, seeing as how we are reading text, not hearing tone or seeing facial expressions, it can be difficult to pick up sarcasm or a joking attitude.
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Postby Defence21 on Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:59 pm

NJ5934 wrote:What we need:

Brad Boyes
Andy Sutton
Matt Cooke

What we need to get rid of:

Ryan Malone
John Leclair
Mike Ouellet
Rob Scuderi
Mark Recchi

I like that opinion. Sutton and Cooke -- I would think -- could be had without giving up TOO much. Boyes, on the other hand, likely isn't going anywhere. But maybe Nagy or Doan are. I think either would fit in Boyes' spot nicely, and might be a little easier to acquire.
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Postby NJ5934 on Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:52 pm

Defence21 wrote:
NJ5934 wrote:What we need:

Brad Boyes
Andy Sutton
Matt Cooke

What we need to get rid of:

Ryan Malone
John Leclair
Mike Ouellet
Rob Scuderi
Mark Recchi

I like that opinion. Sutton and Cooke -- I would think -- could be had without giving up TOO much. Boyes, on the other hand, likely isn't going anywhere. But maybe Nagy or Doan are. I think either would fit in Boyes' spot nicely, and might be a little easier to acquire.


Sutton is a very underated blueliner. He's alot quicker than most people think when looking at his size. He had 144 penalty minutes last year on an average team and was still a +13. To top it off, he's as nasty as anyone in the league.

Picking up a legit winger in my mind spreads out the top two lines more evenly. I know its exciting, but I don't like the idea of Malkin and Crosby on the same line. We become a one line team again and are easiler to match up against. Teams like Jersey who have solid third lines can stack them everytime our top line is out. I'd much rather see Staal on the wing than Malkin.

A pick up like Cooke solidifies what could be two terror bottom two lines. Contrary to what alot of people think, Ouellet is not a checker and neither is Leclair. Given his speed, or lack thereof, Malone isn't much of one either.

I know its going to take time, but everyone needs to get away from that Craig Patrick mindset. The third and fourth lines are for guys who play those roles well, not the 'left-overs'. That is the difference between top teams and the rest of the league. They don't make room or "find spots" for guys like Leclair and Ouellet. They don't have them. If your getting minutes in the NHL on a team that expects to make the playoffs, you should be proficient at your role. If we want to have effective 3rd and 4th lines, we need to put 3rd and 4th liners on them.
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Postby kirk on Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:55 pm

Deas wrote:
NJ5934 wrote:What we need:

Brad Boyes
Andy Sutton
Matt Cooke

What we need to get rid of:

Ryan Malone
John Leclair
Mike Ouellet
Rob Scuderi
Mark Recchi

Lines as a result

Boyes Crosby Armstrong
Staal Malkin Ekman
Ruutu Moore Cooke
Roy Talbot Thorburn/Petrovicky

Gonchar Eaton
Whitney Sutton
Welch Orpik

Just my opinion.


That's not much better than right now. I'm starting to believe Pens really need to continue with their huge punch line. Ekman, Staal and Reechi are looking good as 2nd line anyway.

If we get a 1st line W bump Army to the third.


I agree, but the key is to continue to get production from the other three lines so that, when Sid and Malkin have an off night, the Pens still can score goals. I'd keep them together, if only because they're the only two forwards on the team capable of playing with one another.
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Postby Ginger on Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:17 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:Apparently anything with more subtlety than a jackhammer is lost on some folks.

Well no, your reputation preceeds you & there are a lot of posters here who just assume that you were being you once more. You know that old saying, “If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, then it probably is a..........................................." Image
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Postby canaan on Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:12 pm

not to be a hater on your opinion of line projections, nj, but i just dont see the abundant need for the penguins to rid themselves of scuderi and ouellet at this point...they are both playing decent hockey and have been contributing rather well. :)
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Postby eberhard on Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:55 pm

gampy wrote:Hi Guys and girls, first post here.

First off, I am from Ontario, Canada, and usually follow and cheer for the Senators, but I have to say I have been really rooting for the Penguins this year. Can't wait to see them come up soon, so I can see them on the telly.


Welcome! This is a great source of information and insight if you apply the right filters.

gampy wrote:Keep Staal in the line-up. DO NOT send him to the bush leagues. Keep Crosby and Malkin together for the rest of the season, a la Spezza-Heatley.


I have come around on both counts. Staal showed he belongs and it is going to be awfully hard to break up that Crosby/Malkin combination, at least until they load up with another quality winger OR start getting muzzled by lights-out checking lines.

gampy wrote:I don't think you guys really need to go crazy on the free agent market, it is just completely a waste usually. The Pens have a high scoring line up front with 87 and 71, and secondary scoring from Staal and the leadership of Recci. Thibeault, in my eyes is ready for prime time I think. To borrow a military term..the team has..."Unit cohesion", I think. Develop that. I mean really, really work on the team you have now. General managers are paid to make trades, but it's really silly to **** with the team once it gets rolling.


I like that. Unit cohesion. It has been visible to the naked eye the last two games, particularly on lines 1 and 4.

gampy wrote:If you want to add some more grit, add a 4th line winger who can fight to protect your elites.


Do you think we need to trade for such a player with Thornburn, Roy, etc. in the mix?

gampy wrote:I say don't **** with the team...let it gel in the next 3 months.


There is a lot to be said for that. I'm with most of the guys on here in thinking we would really benefit from a wing who can finish, but at this point I'd rather be patient and let this team gel than be hasty. The team is now in a process to develop that unit cohesion and it would be foolish to start changing variables here and there.
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Postby brwi on Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:53 pm

First and foremost: great health and no injuries. Yeah, good luck on that. :D

MAF can't play every game so T-Blow will have to get the job done sooner rather than later. That concerns me.

This d-corps is pretty suspect, but MAF has bailed them out and I see improvement happening. Slowly, but it's happening.

I could care less about another winger being able to score. I think that's not going to be a big issue this year.

Brad
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Postby HomerPenguin on Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:40 am

Ron` wrote:Still at it huh? Did your mom pack your lunch today or did you ride the bus?

Are you working out of a book of lame overused put-downs, or are you doing this off the top of your head?
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Postby Daniel on Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:57 am

HomerPenguin wrote:
Ron` wrote:Still at it huh? Did your mom pack your lunch today or did you ride the bus?

Are you working out of a book of lame overused put-downs, or are you doing this off the top of your head?


Wow, everywhere I go to read threads, there you are getting into it with another poster. Like Ginger said, your reputation precedes you and it is usually correct. :roll:
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Postby shawnlesky on Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:53 am

jmh470 wrote:Waiving Scuderi would be a very good start.


Exactly what games have you been watching?

I'll say this: Palffy would be a very nice addition in February, although I'm not sure if he'd be a playoff eligible player by the rules; I'll have to read about that. It's possible he'd have to agree to a low-ball offer just to become a FA at the end of the year if he does want back in the NHL as he says.
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Postby Hawkeynut on Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:56 am

rasbatch wrote:
pfim wrote:They need wingers who can score goals. If the team continues to rack up points, it allows Shero to be patient, but I don't think anyone would disagree that a goalscorer would improve this team greatly.
That said would you welcome back the prodigal son Ziggy? in Feb of course.


I certainly would. I have no idea what the whole situation was last year, but if he can pot some goals then who cares?
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Postby gampy on Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:18 am

eberhard wrote:Do you think we need to trade for such a player with Thornburn, Roy, etc. in the mix?


Can these guys skate, and handle the puck? If so, I guess you are ok.
I was thinking maybe a good "pest", like Tucker, Varada, or Neil. Guys that stir the pot.

Anyways, thanks for the welcome!

I think the Penguins are in the same boat Ottawa was 5 or 6 years ago.
You now have a group of young players that can paly competitively. Just a matter of developing that talent and chemistry into a winner. Hopefully, Coach Therrien can do that. French Canadian coaches are good for that, historically.

I think the team is gaining confidence, which is half the battle. Seriously.
Once a team is playing with confidence, trust, and learning how good it feels to win, that intangible is worth more than any free market signings you could make. People discuss trades as though they are putting together parts for a computer. Not the same. Hockey is a team sport, and though you need some talent (which you guys now have), it's a lot more about team spirit and cohesion. That is what a coach's job, at this level anyways, is all about.
Getting the guys to play "together". Not easy, with the egos, and age differences in the NHL. I think Therrien is the perfect coach for this team.
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Postby pensfannn on Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:44 pm

Most important to our success is the health of Crosby and Malkin.

Malkin = Playoffs
No Malkin = No Playoffs

Second, the consistency of MAF.

Third, overall team health.
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