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Cole on the block

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Re: Cole on the block

Postby lemieuxReturns on Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:35 am

no name wrote:With no move being made on Cole I am convinced he is staying put, until the trade deadline or letting him walk after the post season. (if there is one).

We all know it will take 8+ healthy NHL defensemen in the playoffs. Cole is a big reason we had those cups, that steady stay at home presence is needed.

I think GMJR had every right to put him on the market and see what he could of gotten for him, also allowing his agent to get a new contract to increase that value. Since no team was willing to pay the price for him we should keep him for hopefully another long playoff run.


Who knows, maybe it brings Cole's expectations down a bit contract-wise and allows him to come to terms with the Penguins.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby Jim on Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:50 am

lemieuxReturns wrote:One blogger says expect the world in return and another says pennies on the dollar. One says trade is right around the corner, another says at the deadline. Yeesh


And they all have solid inside sources...
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby Jim on Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:54 am

lemieuxReturns wrote:
no name wrote:With no move being made on Cole I am convinced he is staying put, until the trade deadline or letting him walk after the post season. (if there is one).

We all know it will take 8+ healthy NHL defensemen in the playoffs. Cole is a big reason we had those cups, that steady stay at home presence is needed.

I think GMJR had every right to put him on the market and see what he could of gotten for him, also allowing his agent to get a new contract to increase that value. Since no team was willing to pay the price for him we should keep him for hopefully another long playoff run.


Who knows, maybe it brings Cole's expectations down a bit contract-wise and allows him to come to terms with the Penguins.


The entire Cole trade issue seems to stem from his relationship with Sullivan. If that is the case then i do not see him coming back.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:01 am

no name wrote:With no move being made on Cole I am convinced he is staying put, until the trade deadline or letting him walk after the post season. (if there is one).

We all know it will take 8+ healthy NHL defensemen in the playoffs. Cole is a big reason we had those cups, that steady stay at home presence is needed.

I think GMJR had every right to put him on the market and see what he could of gotten for him, also allowing his agent to get a new contract to increase that value. Since no team was willing to pay the price for him we should keep him for hopefully another long playoff run.

It's all conjecture at this point, but the way several reporters are putting things together, they kind of think the following is what happened:

1) After his 2nd or 3rd game of being a healthy scratch, Cole and/or his agent over react and ask for a trade or permission to seek a trade.
2) Agent can't find a return that is suitable to the Penguins.
3) Urgency to move Cole dies back down.

Right now, I keep hearing the Penguins see Cole as the 6th/7th defenseman. Even though his defensive numbers are very good, the Penguins aren't happy with his play in terms of generating offense and breakouts. They like how Ruhwedel is playing. He's not flashy, but he knows what he is and is not capable and doesn't step outside that too much. I personally see Cole as more of a 4/5 guy on most teams, but, because he isn't a big offense generator, his role is more diminished in the Penguins system. As someone else was saying, if offensive generation was the issue with Cole, then maybe they should have just kept Pouliot, stop harping on his defensive mistakes, and let him play his game. He seems to be doing well in Vancouver. This goes back to the whole idea that not every player is a right fit for every team/system.

For now, I don't think a Cole trade is imminent. Maybe by the end of the year, as Rutherford seems to be aggressively shopping for a 3C and maybe winger right now. Or if Sullivan removes him from the lineup again. The Penguins like Hunwick's skating ability and puck moving skills. It seems they value the puck moving side more than outright defensive abilities.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:04 am

lemieuxReturns wrote:
no name wrote:With no move being made on Cole I am convinced he is staying put, until the trade deadline or letting him walk after the post season. (if there is one).

We all know it will take 8+ healthy NHL defensemen in the playoffs. Cole is a big reason we had those cups, that steady stay at home presence is needed.

I think GMJR had every right to put him on the market and see what he could of gotten for him, also allowing his agent to get a new contract to increase that value. Since no team was willing to pay the price for him we should keep him for hopefully another long playoff run.


Who knows, maybe it brings Cole's expectations down a bit contract-wise and allows him to come to terms with the Penguins.

I don't see any way for Cole to stay beyond this year. In our system, he might be a 6/7 type guy, but for a lot of other teams, he's a 4/5 guy. He has played in the past like a 4/5 guy, is a playoff warrior type. He'll get 4M plus from somebody easily. Penguins can't afford that, with Letang, Schultz, Maatta, and Dumoulin all over 4M in cap hit, Penguins can't add a bottom pairing guy for that amount, and have room to resign Hornqvist, Rust, and Guentzel down the road. Penguins need a cheap, cost controlled defenseman for a few years. Preferably a younger guy with promising upside, but for now, that cheap option is Ruhwedel.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby KG on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:52 am

This Cole situation has been a nice roller coaster...

To me the only reason to deal Cole is if he was part of a package to get a solid 3C.

If the market for Cole is a 2nd round pick then there’s no reason to trade him. This is a win now team. If we can’t get a good player to help us win now the Cole will probably stay here for a run and be gone July 1.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:02 am

KG wrote:This Cole situation has been a nice roller coaster...

To me the only reason to deal Cole is if he was part of a package to get a solid 3C.

If the market for Cole is a 2nd round pick then there’s no reason to trade him. This is a win now team. If we can’t get a good player to help us win now the Cole will probably stay here for a run and be gone July 1.

But if that 2nd round pick is going to be flipped for, say, part of a 3C deal with a different team.....or flipped to get some defensive depth for the playoffs???
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby Jim on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:53 am

FLPensFan wrote:
KG wrote:This Cole situation has been a nice roller coaster...

To me the only reason to deal Cole is if he was part of a package to get a solid 3C.

If the market for Cole is a 2nd round pick then there’s no reason to trade him. This is a win now team. If we can’t get a good player to help us win now the Cole will probably stay here for a run and be gone July 1.

But if that 2nd round pick is going to be flipped for, say, part of a 3C deal with a different team.....or flipped to get some defensive depth for the playoffs???


Why move Cole to get a 2nd so that you can use that 2nd to get D depth for the playoffs? That is what Cole is, and quite good at it.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby pens_CT on Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:07 pm

Jim wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
KG wrote:This Cole situation has been a nice roller coaster...

To me the only reason to deal Cole is if he was part of a package to get a solid 3C.

If the market for Cole is a 2nd round pick then there’s no reason to trade him. This is a win now team. If we can’t get a good player to help us win now the Cole will probably stay here for a run and be gone July 1.

But if that 2nd round pick is going to be flipped for, say, part of a 3C deal with a different team.....or flipped to get some defensive depth for the playoffs???


Why move Cole to get a 2nd so that you can use that 2nd to get D depth for the playoffs? That is what Cole is, and quite good at it.


Well they need to add scoring depth to this team. They wouldn't go far in the playoffs based on the current production of the bottom six. Hopefully the Wild continue out of the playoff picture and that allows them to get Cullen back for a playoff push. That should be a cheap addition to the roster.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby Jim on Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:13 pm

pens_CT wrote:
Jim wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
KG wrote:This Cole situation has been a nice roller coaster...

To me the only reason to deal Cole is if he was part of a package to get a solid 3C.

If the market for Cole is a 2nd round pick then there’s no reason to trade him. This is a win now team. If we can’t get a good player to help us win now the Cole will probably stay here for a run and be gone July 1.

But if that 2nd round pick is going to be flipped for, say, part of a 3C deal with a different team.....or flipped to get some defensive depth for the playoffs???


Why move Cole to get a 2nd so that you can use that 2nd to get D depth for the playoffs? That is what Cole is, and quite good at it.


Well they need to add scoring depth to this team. They wouldn't go far in the playoffs based on the current production of the bottom six. Hopefully the Wild continue out of the playoff picture and that allows them to get Cullen back for a playoff push. That should be a cheap addition to the roster.


I understand Cole for a forward... Cole for D doesn't make dense though.

(whether directly or for a piece that is then moved for F/D)
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:17 pm

Jim wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
KG wrote:This Cole situation has been a nice roller coaster...

To me the only reason to deal Cole is if he was part of a package to get a solid 3C.

If the market for Cole is a 2nd round pick then there’s no reason to trade him. This is a win now team. If we can’t get a good player to help us win now the Cole will probably stay here for a run and be gone July 1.

But if that 2nd round pick is going to be flipped for, say, part of a 3C deal with a different team.....or flipped to get some defensive depth for the playoffs???


Why move Cole to get a 2nd so that you can use that 2nd to get D depth for the playoffs? That is what Cole is, and quite good at it.

Based on him being a healthy scratch and now the subject of rampant trade rumors, I would say Mike Sullivan disagrees with your assessment of Cole.

But, I do agree, trading Cole for a 2nd to eventually get D....just keep Cole. And I agree with your assessment that Cole is quite good at his role. I don't see the issue with his play that Sullivan supposedly does.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:22 pm

pens_CT wrote:
Jim wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
KG wrote:This Cole situation has been a nice roller coaster...

To me the only reason to deal Cole is if he was part of a package to get a solid 3C.

If the market for Cole is a 2nd round pick then there’s no reason to trade him. This is a win now team. If we can’t get a good player to help us win now the Cole will probably stay here for a run and be gone July 1.

But if that 2nd round pick is going to be flipped for, say, part of a 3C deal with a different team.....or flipped to get some defensive depth for the playoffs???


Why move Cole to get a 2nd so that you can use that 2nd to get D depth for the playoffs? That is what Cole is, and quite good at it.


Well they need to add scoring depth to this team. They wouldn't go far in the playoffs based on the current production of the bottom six. Hopefully the Wild continue out of the playoff picture and that allows them to get Cullen back for a playoff push. That should be a cheap addition to the roster.

I wouldn't gamble on Cullen at this point. I have not watched him play, so I can't give first hand knowledge, but his numbers indicate he's playing like a guy who is 41 years old. His production is down, and his plus/minus is the worst on the team. Like I have said before, some players don't always play well in other systems. Maybe that is what is going on with Cullen.....but his age and his stats say that bringing him back to PIT and hoping he goes back to playing how he did for the Penguins last year is too big of a risk. It's similar to thinking you can bring back Scuderi and he is going to be the same defensive player years later.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby Jim on Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:23 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Jim wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
KG wrote:This Cole situation has been a nice roller coaster...

To me the only reason to deal Cole is if he was part of a package to get a solid 3C.

If the market for Cole is a 2nd round pick then there’s no reason to trade him. This is a win now team. If we can’t get a good player to help us win now the Cole will probably stay here for a run and be gone July 1.

But if that 2nd round pick is going to be flipped for, say, part of a 3C deal with a different team.....or flipped to get some defensive depth for the playoffs???


Why move Cole to get a 2nd so that you can use that 2nd to get D depth for the playoffs? That is what Cole is, and quite good at it.

Based on him being a healthy scratch and now the subject of rampant trade rumors, I would say Mike Sullivan disagrees with your assessment of Cole.

But, I do agree, trading Cole for a 2nd to eventually get D....just keep Cole. And I agree with your assessment that Cole is quite good at his role. I don't see the issue with his play that Sullivan supposedly does.


The D that you need in the playoffs is not always the same as the D that you need in November/December. It is quite short sighted of Sullivan to just want offensive minded Dmen if that is the direction that he wants to go.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby Jim on Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:27 pm

FLPensFan wrote:I wouldn't gamble on Cullen at this point. I have not watched him play, so I can't give first hand knowledge, but his numbers indicate he's playing like a guy who is 41 years old. His production is down, and his plus/minus is the worst on the team. Like I have said before, some players don't always play well in other systems. Maybe that is what is going on with Cullen.....but his age and his stats say that bringing him back to PIT and hoping he goes back to playing how he did for the Penguins last year is too big of a risk. It's similar to thinking you can bring back Scuderi and he is going to be the same defensive player years later.


Cullen's production here was a surprise, not the expectation. Cullen's production for the Wild is the expectation, not a surprise.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby Defence21 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:58 pm

FLPensFan wrote:Based on him being a healthy scratch and now the subject of rampant trade rumors, I would say Mike Sullivan disagrees with your assessment of Cole.

But, I do agree, trading Cole for a 2nd to eventually get D....just keep Cole. And I agree with your assessment that Cole is quite good at his role. I don't see the issue with his play that Sullivan supposedly does.

I think it's entirely possible -- and in fact plausible -- that this has been blown entirely out of proportion. Cole was scratched. He likely wasn't happy about it and sought the opportunity to find a trade. Nothing worked out, and he remains a Penguin. Sullivan and Cole might not see eye-to-eye, but that doesn't mean that Sullivan has banished Cole to Syberia. By all accounts, Cole will be back on a pair with Schultz for tonight. If Sullivan felt he was that bad, Cole wouldn't have gone nearly two years between healthy scratches. Sheary found himself as a healthy scratch and yet is still deemed a valuable piece of this team. Fleury was demoted to backup goalie and still played a huge role in last year's playoffs. Cole being scratched doesn't mean Sullivan sees him as a 6/7. It means he wants to see more from Cole and felt a few days off might help with that.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby Great58 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:20 pm

A little tension in the locker room is a good thing. Pens hadn't been playing well, so the coach makes some changes. A popular guy who may have some (minor) holes in his game sits for a few. Teammates get upset, don't want to see him traded, tight up as a group to keep management for making changes. Start winning (without late third period comebacks and OTs) and you won't have to face losing a teammate (at this time).
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:30 pm

Mackey wrote a good piece on Ryan Reaves today. I know Reaves is good in the room, kind of the new prankster in place of Fleury, but I truly question whether Sullivan is a fan of Reaves. I think Reaves' usage, not necessarily the player, has sucked. This part of Mackey's article caught my eye:

One scenario where the Penguins hoped to have Reaves contribute was the penalty kill, yet Reaves is the only player who has appeared in all 26 games without a single second spent on the penalty kill.

“At this point I think we just have some other guys who are in our lineup that might be a little bit better at it and have more experience at it,” Penguins coach Mike Sullivan said. “That’s part of what weighs into the equation. We’re trying to do our best to put guys in positions to be successful and play to their strengths. Ryan’s no different in that regard.”

=============
I mean, really? The PK is 26th in the league, and Sully points to we have some better guys in our lineup. I can see if you are a top 5, maybe even top 10 ranked PK. But only a few percentage points from worst in the league......I think the better guys at it narrative is blowing a lot of smoke. No reason they can't give him a random shift out there. Would not be difficult to get him some shifts in a game where they have a sizeable lead with little time left in the game, and see how he does.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby BurghThing on Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:30 pm

Put him down low and let him clear guys from the front of the net.

Can't hurt.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby Great58 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:48 pm

FLPensFan wrote:Mackey wrote a good piece on Ryan Reaves today. I know Reaves is good in the room, kind of the new prankster in place of Fleury, but I truly question whether Sullivan is a fan of Reaves. I think Reaves' usage, not necessarily the player, has sucked. This part of Mackey's article caught my eye:

One scenario where the Penguins hoped to have Reaves contribute was the penalty kill, yet Reaves is the only player who has appeared in all 26 games without a single second spent on the penalty kill.

“At this point I think we just have some other guys who are in our lineup that might be a little bit better at it and have more experience at it,” Penguins coach Mike Sullivan said. “That’s part of what weighs into the equation. We’re trying to do our best to put guys in positions to be successful and play to their strengths. Ryan’s no different in that regard.”

=============
I mean, really? The PK is 26th in the league, and Sully points to we have some better guys in our lineup. I can see if you are a top 5, maybe even top 10 ranked PK. But only a few percentage points from worst in the league......I think the better guys at it narrative is blowing a lot of smoke. No reason they can't give him a random shift out there. Would not be difficult to get him some shifts in a game where they have a sizeable lead with little time left in the game, and see how he does.

I think Sullivan is trying to keep from hitting #31 with the PK, and I approve of that.
But Reaves should be getting big minutes in the third period of blow out games, either ahead or behind. Not to fight, but to give some rest to the top 6 legs.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby pens_CT on Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:37 pm

Great58 wrote:A little tension in the locker room is a good thing. Pens hadn't been playing well, so the coach makes some changes. A popular guy who may have some (minor) holes in his game sits for a few. Teammates get upset, don't want to see him traded, tight up as a group to keep management for making changes. Start winning (without late third period comebacks and OTs) and you won't have to face losing a teammate (at this time).


Yeah maybe it makes them play a little bit harder and the "right way" to quote Sullivan. I doubt it does anything to fix the abysmal production from the bottom six. This needs to be corrected if this team is going to go far in the playoffs. Can't expect them to do much as a two line team.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby Pitts on Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:54 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
no name wrote:With no move being made on Cole I am convinced he is staying put, until the trade deadline or letting him walk after the post season. (if there is one).

We all know it will take 8+ healthy NHL defensemen in the playoffs. Cole is a big reason we had those cups, that steady stay at home presence is needed.

I think GMJR had every right to put him on the market and see what he could of gotten for him, also allowing his agent to get a new contract to increase that value. Since no team was willing to pay the price for him we should keep him for hopefully another long playoff run.

It's all conjecture at this point, but the way several reporters are putting things together, they kind of think the following is what happened:

1) After his 2nd or 3rd game of being a healthy scratch, Cole and/or his agent over react and ask for a trade or permission to seek a trade.
2) Agent can't find a return that is suitable to the Penguins.
3) Urgency to move Cole dies back down.

Right now, I keep hearing the Penguins see Cole as the 6th/7th defenseman. Even though his defensive numbers are very good, the Penguins aren't happy with his play in terms of generating offense and breakouts. They like how Ruhwedel is playing. He's not flashy, but he knows what he is and is not capable and doesn't step outside that too much. I personally see Cole as more of a 4/5 guy on most teams, but, because he isn't a big offense generator, his role is more diminished in the Penguins system. As someone else was saying, if offensive generation was the issue with Cole, then maybe they should have just kept Pouliot, stop harping on his defensive mistakes, and let him play his game. He seems to be doing well in Vancouver. This goes back to the whole idea that not every player is a right fit for every team/system.

For now, I don't think a Cole trade is imminent. Maybe by the end of the year, as Rutherford seems to be aggressively shopping for a 3C and maybe winger right now. Or if Sullivan removes him from the lineup again. The Penguins like Hunwick's skating ability and puck moving skills. It seems they value the puck moving side more than outright defensive abilities.

So, if they aren't happy with Cole's ability with offense, what do they say about Doumolin?? That just doesn't make sense. We have plenty of offense from the defense. I appreciate having some actual defense back there.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby pens_CT on Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:00 pm

Pitts wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
no name wrote:With no move being made on Cole I am convinced he is staying put, until the trade deadline or letting him walk after the post season. (if there is one).

We all know it will take 8+ healthy NHL defensemen in the playoffs. Cole is a big reason we had those cups, that steady stay at home presence is needed.

I think GMJR had every right to put him on the market and see what he could of gotten for him, also allowing his agent to get a new contract to increase that value. Since no team was willing to pay the price for him we should keep him for hopefully another long playoff run.

It's all conjecture at this point, but the way several reporters are putting things together, they kind of think the following is what happened:

1) After his 2nd or 3rd game of being a healthy scratch, Cole and/or his agent over react and ask for a trade or permission to seek a trade.
2) Agent can't find a return that is suitable to the Penguins.
3) Urgency to move Cole dies back down.

Right now, I keep hearing the Penguins see Cole as the 6th/7th defenseman. Even though his defensive numbers are very good, the Penguins aren't happy with his play in terms of generating offense and breakouts. They like how Ruhwedel is playing. He's not flashy, but he knows what he is and is not capable and doesn't step outside that too much. I personally see Cole as more of a 4/5 guy on most teams, but, because he isn't a big offense generator, his role is more diminished in the Penguins system. As someone else was saying, if offensive generation was the issue with Cole, then maybe they should have just kept Pouliot, stop harping on his defensive mistakes, and let him play his game. He seems to be doing well in Vancouver. This goes back to the whole idea that not every player is a right fit for every team/system.

For now, I don't think a Cole trade is imminent. Maybe by the end of the year, as Rutherford seems to be aggressively shopping for a 3C and maybe winger right now. Or if Sullivan removes him from the lineup again. The Penguins like Hunwick's skating ability and puck moving skills. It seems they value the puck moving side more than outright defensive abilities.

So, if they aren't happy with Cole's ability with offense, what do they say about Doumolin?? That just doesn't make sense. We have plenty of offense from the defense. I appreciate having some actual defense back there.


I think this less abut Cole's play and more about the fact that he is on the last year of a deal, and the need to acquire a forward asset to improve scoring depth.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby Great58 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:58 pm

pens_CT wrote:
Great58 wrote:A little tension in the locker room is a good thing. Pens hadn't been playing well, so the coach makes some changes. A popular guy who may have some (minor) holes in his game sits for a few. Teammates get upset, don't want to see him traded, tight up as a group to keep management for making changes. Start winning (without late third period comebacks and OTs) and you won't have to face losing a teammate (at this time).


Yeah maybe it makes them play a little bit harder and the "right way" to quote Sullivan. I doubt it does anything to fix the abysmal production from the bottom six. This needs to be corrected if this team is going to go far in the playoffs. Can't expect them to do much as a two line team.

Agreed. But the coach's responsibility is to maximize the performance of the players he has in hand.
Sullivan was reportedly hated by at least some of the NYR players. Likely spill over from Torts, but I think he has the capacity to do whatever is needed to spark his team.
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby Ericf on Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:07 pm

Sprong has been scratched tonight in WBS. Some comments on his bad attitude. Not a good situation. I really want him to work out in the NHL
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Re: Cole on the block

Postby Puck-Lurker on Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:24 pm

Ericf wrote:Sprong has been scratched tonight in WBS. Some comments on his bad attitude. Not a good situation. I really want him to work out in the NHL

I cried. :cry:
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