Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Mango Salsa on Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:16 pm

Penspal wrote:
Owchar76 wrote:Back to back games where a Penguins blueliner takes a cheap shot. Letang from Perry, Schultz from Brown. It's on the league to put a stop to this. I can only laugh at those that actually believe Reaves has any effect on this. The last 2 games are prime examples that opposing players don't care about Reaves and do what they want.


I think you have to understand that the Brown was different than the Perry one. On the Perry shot, you could argue that it was premeditated, Perry had a very brief time to ensure he made contact. On the Brown one, while he did crosscheck him, it was bang bang and he had committed to making contact with Schultz, and did so in an illegal manner, but not an overly vicious one (could have been much harder).




Let's not forget that Geno smashed him in the nuts in the first so I'm sure he was looking for some payback on someone.
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby OKpensfan247 on Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:07 pm

Yeah, good point Mango.

The more I thought about this today, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I said earlier today Reaves does not deter anything because of the target we carry on our backs in general, as well as the fact our stars especially Geno and Tanger bring a lot of things on themselves with their agressiveness, and in Tanger's case, sometimes boneheadedness.

But on the other hand, there have been several games like Boston recently that seemed more calm than usual, and like the Islanders game a couple weeks ago where their one player tried to start after whistle junk on two separate occasions until Reaves skated up.

So the majority of the time I do believe someone like Reaves can't control teams playing us borderline, or shady, but there have been a handful of instances this year he has had a positive impact IMO, even if limited.

I just think Reaves provides value with his physical play in physical, playoff type games. I do agree we better have 3 scoring lines if our 4th will be a heavier checking line. Need that 3C.
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Owchar76 on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:32 pm

Reaves isn't hurting this team that bad on the 4th line, but it's hilarious that people think he's deterring anything. We've seen examples of cheap shots throughout the season with him on the ice at the same time. These guys don't care about Reaves, they do what they want. People can't grasp that this "policing themselves" doesn't work. Oh, you've seen players not cheap shot our stars? That's great, I've also seen them not cheap shot our stars in the past too, without Reaves in the lineup.

As I said before, putting a stop to this is on the league. One day people will wake up and see that these guys don't care about who they're playing against, they'll do what they want. Reaves doesn't scare them, nor does the NHL with their piddly suspensions or fines. Brown and Perry are quite familiar with Reaves, but again didn't care. So he didn't stop the cheap shot, nor did he get retribution. Stop labeling the guy as something he's not.

Oh our players say they feel safer with him out there? Please find me an interview with a player where he actually puts down a teammate and downplays his effectiveness. "Do you feel that Reaves provides protection for you and allows you to feel safer out there?" .....what do you think they're going to say? "not really?" "no?". No matter if they do or not, they're going to say yes.

We'll just agree to disagree, no problem with that at all. EVeryone is entitled to their own opinions. Good banter.
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Jim on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:53 pm

No
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby OKpensfan247 on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:53 pm

Owchar76 wrote:Reaves isn't hurting this team that bad on the 4th line, but it's hilarious that people think he's deterring anything. We've seen examples of cheap shots throughout the season with him on the ice at the same time. These guys don't care about Reaves, they do what they want. People can't grasp that this "policing themselves" doesn't work. Oh, you've seen players not cheap shot our stars? That's great, I've also seen them not cheap shot our stars in the past too, without Reaves in the lineup.

As I said before, putting a stop to this is on the league. One day people will wake up and see that these guys don't care about who they're playing against, they'll do what they want. Reaves doesn't scare them, nor does the NHL with their piddly suspensions or fines. Brown and Perry are quite familiar with Reaves, but again didn't care. So he didn't stop the cheap shot, nor did he get retribution. Stop labeling the guy as something he's not.

Oh our players say they feel safer with him out there? Please find me an interview with a player where he actually puts down a teammate and downplays his effectiveness. "Do you feel that Reaves provides protection for you and allows you to feel safer out there?" .....what do you think they're going to say? "not really?" "no?". No matter if they do or not, they're going to say yes.


I respect your opinion Owchar, and Im about 90% with you. Especially on the part of NHL and Player Safety Dept being guilty of not grabbing the bull by the horns and enforcing stricter standards. They definitely have the most power to deter hit guys where they care... Playing time, and pocketbooks. Shanahan was on a good parh IMO, but its so bad now.

The only part I think it's fair to give Reaves credit is the fact we all hate to see our stars and all players have to drop the mitts to take matters into their own hands and risk injury in fights. Reaves has deterred post whistle scrums on at least a handful of occasions this year, which does directly, IMO, deter our stars and team from having to drop the mitts or engage.

Earlier I mentioned 2 recent examples against the Islanders where I believe it was Brock Nelson that tried to start post whistle stuff and Reaves skated up and grabbed Nelson, and he backed off immediately.

So Reaves is impacting by preventing some escalation from happening, although it is limited. Otherwise, I agree with you that opponent players are going to take their cheap shots regardless since players despise Sid, Geno, Tanger, and the Pens have targets on their backs every night as back-to-back cup champs.
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Pitts on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:55 pm

I'm sorry, but I watched a Washington game where Tom Wilson was completely invisible for the first time in years. I've watched a Columbus game that was seriously tame compared to what we've watched the past two seasons. Same with Rangers/Flyers games. I saw them play Ottawa where Brassard played the first honest game of his career against Crosby. I've seen scrums where players literally skated away once they realized Reaves was there. I could go on, but I think you get the picture. No one said Reaves would stop every single "cheap shot" in any given game, but he has clearly made a difference against some of our more physical opponents this season.
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Jim on Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:57 pm

Yes
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Pitts on Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:01 pm

I also appreciate that he calls opponents out before the games begin. He puts them on notice right from the start.
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby OKpensfan247 on Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:22 pm

Yeah I think ultimately we want Sullivan to keep preaching to our guys to just skate away and not engage.

But with how much junk our guys have to put up with because of (1) teams trying to start physical stuff because they despise and want to beat Sid, etc, and (2) teams trying to be physical with us because they cant match our speed or cant beat us... I can understand what Rutherford meant by "We are tired of getting pushed around". Our stars IMO have to put up with more physical abuse and junk than other teams' stars because of our success.

So Reaves cant stop everything, but the little amount of deescalation he can impact... Anything is appreciated. Wilson, Nelson are a couple examples, and there are more. I dont remember Subban doing anything stupid to Sid early this season like he was in the playoffs... But maybe I am forgetting.
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Steve Dave on Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:44 pm

OKpensfan247 wrote:Yeah I think ultimately we want Sullivan to keep preaching to our guys to just skate away and not engage.

But with how much junk our guys have to put up with because of (1) teams trying to start physical stuff because they despise and want to beat Sid, etc, and (2) teams trying to be physical with us because they cant match our speed or cant beat us... I can understand what Rutherford meant by "We are tired of getting pushed around". Our stars IMO have to put up with more physical abuse and junk than other teams' stars because of our success.

So Reaves cant stop everything, but the little amount of deescalation he can impact... Anything is appreciated. Wilson, Nelson are a couple examples, and there are more. I dont remember Subban doing anything stupid to Sid early this season like he was in the playoffs... But maybe I am forgetting.

Don’t forget Hartnell.
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Henry Hank on Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:05 pm

The thing with Sprong is the same routine we go through we every young player. If they don't perform and get benched, invariably there are comments that the coach is not using them properly or hampering their development. It goes both ways. The young player has to perform. He should be put into positions where he can succeed, but he shouldn't be gifted playing time that is undeserving either.

The reality is, Sprong has played in eight games this season, and he has points in only one of those. He has played much of this time on Crosby's line. They couldn't be putting him in a better position to succeed. I don't mind benching a kid in this situation. It's up to him to respond, and really that shows the kind of player he is going to be.
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby murphydump55 on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:10 am

OKpensfan247 wrote:
Owchar76 wrote:Reaves isn't hurting this team that bad on the 4th line, but it's hilarious that people think he's deterring anything. We've seen examples of cheap shots throughout the season with him on the ice at the same time. These guys don't care about Reaves, they do what they want. People can't grasp that this "policing themselves" doesn't work. Oh, you've seen players not cheap shot our stars? That's great, I've also seen them not cheap shot our stars in the past too, without Reaves in the lineup.

As I said before, putting a stop to this is on the league. One day people will wake up and see that these guys don't care about who they're playing against, they'll do what they want. Reaves doesn't scare them, nor does the NHL with their piddly suspensions or fines. Brown and Perry are quite familiar with Reaves, but again didn't care. So he didn't stop the cheap shot, nor did he get retribution. Stop labeling the guy as something he's not.

Oh our players say they feel safer with him out there? Please find me an interview with a player where he actually puts down a teammate and downplays his effectiveness. "Do you feel that Reaves provides protection for you and allows you to feel safer out there?" .....what do you think they're going to say? "not really?" "no?". No matter if they do or not, they're going to say yes.


I respect your opinion Owchar, and Im about 90% with you. Especially on the part of NHL and Player Safety Dept being guilty of not grabbing the bull by the horns and enforcing stricter standards. They definitely have the most power to deter hit guys where they care... Playing time, and pocketbooks. Shanahan was on a good parh IMO, but its so bad now.

The only part I think it's fair to give Reaves credit is the fact we all hate to see our stars and all players have to drop the mitts to take matters into their own hands and risk injury in fights. Reaves has deterred post whistle scrums on at least a handful of occasions this year, which does directly, IMO, deter our stars and team from having to drop the mitts or engage.

Earlier I mentioned 2 recent examples against the Islanders where I believe it was Brock Nelson that tried to start post whistle stuff and Reaves skated up and grabbed Nelson, and he backed off immediately.

So Reaves is impacting by preventing some escalation from happening, although it is limited. Otherwise, I agree with you that opponent players are going to take their cheap shots regardless since players despise Sid, Geno, Tanger, and the Pens have targets on their backs every night as back-to-back cup champs.


Geno got in a fight not too long ago.
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby murphydump55 on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:19 am

Pitts wrote:I'm sorry, but I watched a Washington game where Tom Wilson was completely invisible for the first time in years. I've watched a Columbus game that was seriously tame compared to what we've watched the past two seasons. Same with Rangers/Flyers games. I saw them play Ottawa where Brassard played the first honest game of his career against Crosby. I've seen scrums where players literally skated away once they realized Reaves was there. I could go on, but I think you get the picture. No one said Reaves would stop every single "cheap shot" in any given game, but he has clearly made a difference against some of our more physical opponents this season.


Agreed. He's made a difference against some. What if Letang got a concussion the other night? What if Schultz broke his jaw on that hit? Or even sustained a concussion too? The fact is that they took shots and luckily avoided injury. They could have easily been hurt in a big way. What then do people say about Reaves if they both were injured? That's supposed to be something he deters. Something to think about. Thankfully neither were injured.

I don't care that he's on the 4th line. It is what it is. Seeing Kostin in the WJ's kinda stunk lol.
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby murphydump55 on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:23 am

Owchar76 wrote:Reaves isn't hurting this team that bad on the 4th line, but it's hilarious that people think he's deterring anything. We've seen examples of cheap shots throughout the season with him on the ice at the same time. These guys don't care about Reaves, they do what they want. People can't grasp that this "policing themselves" doesn't work. Oh, you've seen players not cheap shot our stars? That's great, I've also seen them not cheap shot our stars in the past too, without Reaves in the lineup.

As I said before, putting a stop to this is on the league. One day people will wake up and see that these guys don't care about who they're playing against, they'll do what they want. Reaves doesn't scare them, nor does the NHL with their piddly suspensions or fines. Brown and Perry are quite familiar with Reaves, but again didn't care. So he didn't stop the cheap shot, nor did he get retribution. Stop labeling the guy as something he's not.

Oh our players say they feel safer with him out there? Please find me an interview with a player where he actually puts down a teammate and downplays his effectiveness. "Do you feel that Reaves provides protection for you and allows you to feel safer out there?" .....what do you think they're going to say? "not really?" "no?". No matter if they do or not, they're going to say yes.

We'll just agree to disagree, no problem with that at all. EVeryone is entitled to their own opinions. Good banter.


Bingo. On the NHL. That's where this stops. They aren't stopping it and as evident the last two games, neither will a tough guy. Perry should be suspended as should Brown. Stop punishing the result and punish the action.
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Pitts on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:39 am

Steve Dave wrote:
OKpensfan247 wrote:Yeah I think ultimately we want Sullivan to keep preaching to our guys to just skate away and not engage.

But with how much junk our guys have to put up with because of (1) teams trying to start physical stuff because they despise and want to beat Sid, etc, and (2) teams trying to be physical with us because they cant match our speed or cant beat us... I can understand what Rutherford meant by "We are tired of getting pushed around". Our stars IMO have to put up with more physical abuse and junk than other teams' stars because of our success.

So Reaves cant stop everything, but the little amount of deescalation he can impact... Anything is appreciated. Wilson, Nelson are a couple examples, and there are more. I dont remember Subban doing anything stupid to Sid early this season like he was in the playoffs... But maybe I am forgetting.

Don’t forget Hartnell.

And Wayne Simmons. Where has he disappeared to? He's a non-factor anymore. Thank you Reaver!
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Pitts on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:46 am

murphydump55 wrote:
Pitts wrote:I'm sorry, but I watched a Washington game where Tom Wilson was completely invisible for the first time in years. I've watched a Columbus game that was seriously tame compared to what we've watched the past two seasons. Same with Rangers/Flyers games. I saw them play Ottawa where Brassard played the first honest game of his career against Crosby. I've seen scrums where players literally skated away once they realized Reaves was there. I could go on, but I think you get the picture. No one said Reaves would stop every single "cheap shot" in any given game, but he has clearly made a difference against some of our more physical opponents this season.


Agreed. He's made a difference against some. What if Letang got a concussion the other night? What if Schultz broke his jaw on that hit? Or even sustained a concussion too? The fact is that they took shots and luckily avoided injury. They could have easily been hurt in a big way. What then do people say about Reaves if they both were injured? That's supposed to be something he deters. Something to think about. Thankfully neither were injured.

To expect one guy to stop everything is wishful thinking, if not comical. He's doing his job and he does command respect. I appreciate his effort.

murphydump55 wrote:I don't care that he's on the 4th line. It is what it is. Seeing Kostin in the WJ's kinda stunk lol.

No one, and I mean NO ONE knows that the Pens would have drafted that kid with that pick. Major assumption there. Just like Forsberg or Saad (both could have been on this team). We all know who we like. Usually then team thinks differently.
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Jim on Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:10 am

murphydump55 wrote:
Pitts wrote:I'm sorry, but I watched a Washington game where Tom Wilson was completely invisible for the first time in years. I've watched a Columbus game that was seriously tame compared to what we've watched the past two seasons. Same with Rangers/Flyers games. I saw them play Ottawa where Brassard played the first honest game of his career against Crosby. I've seen scrums where players literally skated away once they realized Reaves was there. I could go on, but I think you get the picture. No one said Reaves would stop every single "cheap shot" in any given game, but he has clearly made a difference against some of our more physical opponents this season.


Agreed. He's made a difference against some. What if Letang got a concussion the other night? What if Schultz broke his jaw on that hit? Or even sustained a concussion too? The fact is that they took shots and luckily avoided injury. They could have easily been hurt in a big way. What then do people say about Reaves if they both were injured? That's supposed to be something he deters. Something to think about. Thankfully neither were injured.

I don't care that he's on the 4th line. It is what it is. Seeing Kostin in the WJ's kinda stunk lol.


What if Crosby, Malkin and Letang were all out with injuries caused from hit where players were taking liberties because, much like previous years, no one was on the roster to stand up for the stars and the coach preaches "just take the uncalled elbow to the face and skate away"... but now the extra liberties are actually not being taken so they are not on IR.
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Southern Fan on Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:26 am

I like Sheahan on that fourth line. He knows where to dump a puck. Some forechecks by Kuhnhackl and Reaves have been just what this team needed. Defensemen know who’s skating at them

And Oleksiak has added some toughness.

We just need a third line center who can play the penalty kill and feed Kessel and Guentzel. And they need to tether Letang to his own goal so he can’t pinch
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby penny lane on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:29 pm

My opinion, Reaves has made a difference, when allowed to get minutes. I didn't see Mark Staal cross checking Sid in the back of the neck. Still need to see how Dubinsky plays his game with Reaves on the ice.
With 10,000$ the price of a blind side hit on a player; what's a team to do in the NHL?
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Penspal on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:37 pm

penny lane wrote:My opinion, Reaves has made a difference, when allowed to get minutes. I didn't see Mark Staal cross checking Sid in the back of the neck. Still need to see how Dubinsky plays his game with Reaves on the ice.
With 10,000$ the price of a blind side hit on a player; what's a team to do in the NHL?


Penny, I'm reading between the lines here.... we could crowdsource $10,000 and get some payback on the goons who've taken shots at Sid/Geno/Tanger over the last few years :lol:
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby penny lane on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:59 pm

Penspal wrote:
penny lane wrote:My opinion, Reaves has made a difference, when allowed to get minutes. I didn't see Mark Staal cross checking Sid in the back of the neck. Still need to see how Dubinsky plays his game with Reaves on the ice.
With 10,000$ the price of a blind side hit on a player; what's a team to do in the NHL?


Penny, I'm reading between the lines here.... we could crowdsource $10,000 and get some payback on the goons who've taken shots at Sid/Geno/Tanger over the last few years :lol:


:thumb: To help secure a 3rd line center! :P
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby OKpensfan247 on Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:31 pm

murphydump55 wrote:
Geno got in a fight not too long ago.


I believe Geno will continue to fight and Tanger will continue to take shots regardless of Reaves. Please see my earlier comments on the uniqueness of Malkin and Letang in particular, as well as Reaves not detering 100% of anything. I am in agreeance on those points.

To clarify:

I believe Reaves does have an impact on deterence, even if its only 1%. I dont know how to measure it precisely other than the visual moments I have watched Reaves grab guys and shut stuff down. We did not have that the last couple years. I dont know how you measure if he has escalated more than deescalated, but my opinion from watching games is he has deescalated more. (i.e. He is not seeking out shady hits or instigating the fights like a Downie, rather he is reacting and trying to temper escalation)

I personally value any small difference he brings even if it is only 1% because of the uniqueness of how the majority of our opponents play us for the reasons I listed previously. We unfortunately need someone like Reaves due to how teams physically play us by choice or by necessity.

Like I said, if we play an opponent that is not built to play the physical mauling game against us, ok sit Reaves for faster/offensive player. Or if Reaves helps us get through the season and he is able to help keep our guys slightly fresher, ok if we get desparate for scoring at that point in the playoffs or down the stretch for a playoff spot, sit Reaves for speed/offense.

Most importantly, my point is what gets lost in the quick reaction to simply label him as a non-deterent, is that he brings other value IMO. Due to the physical games we are forced to play as mentioned earlier, Reaves' forechecking and hits (team leader) are effective when our smaller/faster personnel just bounces off our opponents ineffectively (see CBJ and WAS playoff games last year that we were lucky to get great goaltending, inflated blocked shots without injury, and high shooting % to win even though those teams "out-possessed us). Reaves, with Sheahan on his line, can also cycle against heavier and more physical type teams to slowly win back possession time and territory through hits, forechecking, and cycling.

So long as Reaves and the 4th line continue to not make aggregious turnovers, or give up easy soft goals and directly cause us to lose games... I believe Reaves and the 4th line bring positive value in the physical playoff type games we will continue to be forced to play in in the future.
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby littlemoonboot on Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:28 pm

Brown is a turd.
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Puck-Lurker on Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:06 pm

Henry Hank wrote:The thing with Sprong is the same routine we go through we every young player. If they don't perform and get benched, invariably there are comments that the coach is not using them properly or hampering their development. It goes both ways. The young player has to perform. He should be put into positions where he can succeed, but he shouldn't be gifted playing time that is undeserving either.

The reality is, Sprong has played in eight games this season, and he has points in only one of those. He has played much of this time on Crosby's line. They couldn't be putting him in a better position to succeed. I don't mind benching a kid in this situation. It's up to him to respond, and really that shows the kind of player he is going to be.

I don't mind Sprong sitting. I understood HCMS argument for putting him on the nacho chair next to Cole. But I gotta disagree here on two points.

"It's up to him to respond, and really that shows the kind of player he is going to be"
I remember complaints as to his defensive responsibility. Then he was being serial-benched at the end of 2015 (he had Plotnikov on the other wing, if you remember)... after his injury, surgery, time in the Q, the silly CHL/NHL CBA allowed him to go to Wilkes-Barre after two more seasons there... and then some injuries allowed him to come up..

I have kept a VERY keen eye out, but he backchecks perhaps even harder than he forechecks. Guy skates, guy passes, guy shoots. That's what Sullivan told him to do, keep it simple, look for the shot. He's done exactly that. Scored twice, picked up an apple. Goalies have had to keep from cheating on the angle, giving Crosby more space.

"he has points in only one of those"
Sprong and Schultz lead the team +/- with +2. But fortunately, Letang has points in like twenty games. He must be totally awesome.

Simon (=0), Crosby (-13), Sprong (+2), Schultz (+2), Määttä (-4)
Total -13

Guentzel (-15), Crosby (-13), Sheary (-12), Letang (-16), Dumoulin (-13).
Total -69

There, that's about enough stats. :roll:
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Re: Game 48 vs Kings - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Sams_Dog on Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:33 pm

I wasn't happy wit the Reaves trade when it happened and i still don't like it. The argument that he deters can be made. I don't doubt that he has done that to some degree and you can't measure what could have happened if he wasn't there. But I just don't think he is worth the cost of acquiring him (a 1st round pick and a prospect) and the time on the ice he's given related to his results. I don't see that much benefit there. Unfortunately, because of the sh***y way the NHL is run he becomes a necessity. The fine on Brown is typical of the NHL Player "Safety" standards - Brown's cap hit is #5.875M. According to my questionable math skills thats 0.17% of his salary. Yeah, that sends a message. Because Schultz didn't miss any time or go to the hospital its not that big a deal I guess...
Sams_Dog
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