Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

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Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby longtimefan on Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:12 pm

In light of Jagr likely ending his NHL career, and a jersey raising ceremony in the next couple of years, Starkey and Mueller debated the pecking order of the top 4 Pens. They opened it up to 5, and didn't agree there either. In both their cases, they went on to rank Mario and Sid 1 and 2, but Starkey chose Malkin over Jagr, and Mueller vice versa. When they opened it to 5, Starkey chose Francis, while Mueller went Coffey. Just a fun debate.

The secondary question was, Can Sid ever pass Mario for number one? Mueller said yes, Starkey said it was impossible. The guy who does the update, I didn't catch the name, agreed with Starkey.

So, I'll pose the same questions. Here's my top 5, in order:

Lemieux- End of story. Like Starkey and the update guy both said, it ends with the eye test. Both opined that Mario was the greatest player ever, and was unquestionably the most gifted. It's not a sleight against anybody else.

Crosby- Another franchise changing, generational player. The best of his generation. Not nearly as dominant on the ice though. Sid has two scoring titles, Mario has six. Sid is usually in the race, Mario never played a full season and won titles by margins well into double digits. Sid does have more Cups, having won three. He's fun to watch, and his dominant performance against the Preds in Game 5 last year was incredible. Kind of, well, Lemieux like. Which is why Sid's #2.

Malkin- Ever so slightly over Jagr. First, the three cups to Jagr's two. Then there's the fact he plays center, whereas Jagr was a wing. Jagr certainly has more scoring championships, but Makin has a Conn Smythe and two playoff scoring championships. Both players were largely sheltered by a larger than life superstar teammate. Both also stepped up when the other superstar was absent. It's Malkin to me, but only by a hair.

Jagr- How incredible of a history does this team have to be arguing about whether the greatest European of all time, the NHL's second leading all time scorer, and we wonder if he's third or fourth on the Penguins' list? He was sensational. He won five scoring championships. There were a couple years before Mario's retirement where both were at the top of their games, and unstoppable. I remember EJ moving Mario to left wing and putting Francis between them. It meshed well, and there was talk about whether it may have been the best line assembled of all time. His heroics in an overtime playoff game against the heavily favored Devils in the 1999 may well have saved the franchise. He left under ugly and bitter circumstances. We likely will never know the whole story of why. There's no disputing his impact on the team though. I remember in his second season, when he started to take over games with Mario out, they noticed his first name was a perfect acronym. Jaromir was Mario Jr in those heady days.

Francis- I'd say the debate would be with Coffey, but I don't think it's that close. The Coffey trade legitimzed the Pens. The Francis trade made them champions. Coffey really wasn't here all that long. Only three full seasons and parts of two others. He was a member of the first Cup team, playing with a broken jaw in the finals. He was traded before the second. His stats were incredible. Francis, though, became a rock for the franchise for seven full seasons after his trade at the deadline in '91. He was the perfect second line center to Mario. When Mario couldn't play, he easily stepped up into the number one center role. He was great on the draw, and seemed to come up biggest in the clutch. He served as captain during Lemieux's absences, and full time once Mario retired. He also reputedly was always able to keep Jagr's head on straight. It was the dark days, and Craig Patrick let Ronnie walk without even offering a contract. Mario was not yet the owner. He would have liked to stay. That one was rough.

Can Sid surpass Mario in terms of who was better? To me, no. Mario was created as the perfect specimen to play ice hockey. He was huge, yet made plays that the agile little guys couldn't comprehend. At his height, he played at a level a league above the NHL. Stats can be argued era to era. For my money, it's the eye test. Mario is the best hockey player, the most gifted, I've ever seen play.
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby Jim on Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:17 pm

I am fine with this list as is.
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby wondermoose on Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:35 pm

Jagr and Malkin have played the same role to Mario and Sid, respectively. Only difference is Malkin has stayed when no one would have blamed him for leaving so he gets my vote (and I don't mean that as a knock on Jagr either - it's just the way things went down).
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby Humperdink on Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:37 pm

> I would have added Dave Burrows at number 5. A two-time all-star defenseman who was not a goal scorer - a rarity.

> No one could argue with Coffey, but he was a short timer.

> I am thinking the "greatest" Pens began with Mario's arrival.
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby Mango Salsa on Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:22 pm

No arguing Mario at #1, and I don't mean to diminish what he accomplished at all, but I'd like to see what Sid could've done against the horrific goal-tending that Mario faced during a large part of his career.
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby Daniel on Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:53 pm

Jim wrote:I am fine with this list as is.


I like the list as is as well, but I'm curious if you did a top 10. I think both Kunitz and Hornqvist would rate between 6-10. I think both of them helped elevate the team from perennial playoff disappointments to 2 time consecutive cup winners.
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby Sams_Dog on Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:26 pm

I would put Jagr ahead of malign but only slightly. Jagr at his peak was better offensively than Malkin but it's very close.
1. Lemieux
2. Crosby
3. Jagr
5. Malkin
5. Francis
6. Coffey - only played about 4 1.2 years in Pitt but I loved him so I am biased
7. Kehoe - Held offensive records before Mario smashed them
8. Fleury - 3 Cups, holds a lot of goalie records for the team, played 13+ seasons
9. Pronovost
10. Kunitz
11. Phil Bourque - because he's Phil Bourque dammit
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby RentedMule66 on Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:50 pm

For me, and just my opinion:

1. Lemieux
2. Jagr
3. Crosby
4. Malkin
5. Francis

As far as the second question as to will Sid ever pass Mario? No chance in hell. Look, I love Crosby as much as anyone. I watched Lemieux's entire career. He never went 10-15 game droughts without goals or points as Crosby has many times. If Lemieux went more than 2 games without a goal or point, he was in a major slump.
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby DelPen on Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:00 pm

RentedMule66 wrote:For me, and just my opinion:

1. Lemieux
2. Jagr
3. Crosby
4. Malkin
5. Francis

As far as the second question as to will Sid ever pass Mario? No chance in hell. Look, I love Crosby as much as anyone. I watched Lemieux's entire career. He never went 10-15 game droughts without goals or points as Crosby has many times. If Lemieux went more than 2 games without a goal or point, he was in a major slump.


This is mine too but after Mario, Jagr Sid and Geno there a lot that can be in there at #5 kind of like debating who the 5th best player ever in the NHL was.
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby longtimefan on Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:20 am

RentedMule66 wrote:For me, and just my opinion:

1. Lemieux
2. Jagr
3. Crosby
4. Malkin
5. Francis

As far as the second question as to will Sid ever pass Mario? No chance in hell. Look, I love Crosby as much as anyone. I watched Lemieux's entire career. He never went 10-15 game droughts without goals or points as Crosby has many times. If Lemieux went more than 2 games without a goal or point, he was in a major slump.


Actually, one of the most astounding facts about his career to me, was that somewhere in the last ten games of the season before his first retirement in 1997, he went three straight games without a point. For the first time in his career! Think about that for a second. His consistency was incredible. He never went more then three games without a point, even after his return. For perspective, memory tells me Gretzky's longest pointless streak was 7 I believe. Which is why he'll always be #1 to me.
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby KG on Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:37 am

Mario
Sid
Jagr
Malkin
Francis
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby Penspal on Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:45 am

Mario
Sid
Geno
Jaromir
Ronnie
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby Pitts on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:04 am

RentedMule66 wrote:For me, and just my opinion:

1. Lemieux
2. Jagr
3. Crosby
4. Malkin
5. Francis

As far as the second question as to will Sid ever pass Mario? No chance in hell. Look, I love Crosby as much as anyone. I watched Lemieux's entire career. He never went 10-15 game droughts without goals or points as Crosby has many times. If Lemieux went more than 2 games without a goal or point, he was in a major slump.

Agreed. Jagr has more hardware in a Pen's jersey than Crosby does. He was also pretty much an Ironman during his time here. He's currently number 2 for now.
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:07 am

I think the top 4 are pretty much set in stone, with the order of 2-4 a bit debatable. For 1-4, I actually think the list goes in order of the top 4 scorers in franchise history, although, that is not the reason I ordered them that way:

1. Lemieux - sorry, he will never be passed as #1 for this franchise....unless the NHL goes back to wide open 80's hockey.
2. Crosby - Slight edge over Jagr as he has more games in Pens uniform, more points with Pens, and 3 Cups
3. Jagr - If he had played longer with the Penguins, he would easily be right behind Lemieux
4. Malkin - Kind of like Jagr to Lemieux, he's often played 2nd fiddle to Crosby here.
5. Tie - Kehoe/Pronovost

For # 5, if you go by games played and next in line in the scoring department, Kehoe is the choice. If you go by games played, points, and points per game, Francis is the choice. But, I think we also have two biases working at play here.....one is recency bias, and the other is "**** pre-Lemieux Penguins" bias. I got to see Kehoe play some, but not Pronovost. But I think those 2 are rightfully deserving of #5 spot because of their games played with the Penguins, the points put up with Pittsburgh, and realizing those guys put up the numbers they did on mostly horrible Penguins teams. Kehoe and Pronovost didn't play on stacked powerhouse teams like Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby, and Malkin have gotten the opportunity.

Francis would be my #6
Burrows would likely be #7
Fleury would be #8
Letang #9
Straka #10

Hate to leave out Coffey, but he played only 3 full seasons and 2 half seasons here. Syl Apps is another one that could garner some consideration, but he played under 500 games for the Penguins
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby Pitts on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:13 am

FLPensFan wrote:I think the top 4 are pretty much set in stone, with the order of 2-4 a bit debatable. For 1-4, I actually think the list goes in order of the top 4 scorers in franchise history, although, that is not the reason I ordered them that way:

1. Lemieux - sorry, he will never be passed as #1 for this franchise....unless the NHL goes back to wide open 80's hockey.
2. Crosby - Slight edge over Jagr as he has more games in Pens uniform, more points with Pens, and 3 Cups
3. Jagr - If he had played longer with the Penguins, he would easily be right behind Lemieux
4. Malkin - Kind of like Jagr to Lemieux, he's often played 2nd fiddle to Crosby here.
5. Tie - Kehoe/Pronovost

For # 5, if you go by games played and next in line in the scoring department, Kehoe is the choice. If you go by games played, points, and points per game, Francis is the choice. But, I think we also have two biases working at play here.....one is recency bias, and the other is "**** pre-Lemieux Penguins" bias. I got to see Kehoe play some, but not Pronovost. But I think those 2 are rightfully deserving of #5 spot because of their games played with the Penguins, the points put up with Pittsburgh, and realizing those guys put up the numbers they did on mostly horrible Penguins teams. Kehoe and Pronovost didn't play on stacked powerhouse teams like Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby, and Malkin have gotten the opportunity.

Francis would be my #6
Burrows would likely be #7
Fleury would be #8
Letang #9
Straka #10

Hate to leave out Coffey, but he played only 3 full seasons and 2 half seasons here. Syl Apps is another one that could garner some consideration, but he played under 500 games for the Penguins

Barrasso?
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby Jim on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:26 am

Can't put 8 names on a top 5 list, can't put 23 names on a top 10 list.
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:43 am

Pitts wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:I think the top 4 are pretty much set in stone, with the order of 2-4 a bit debatable. For 1-4, I actually think the list goes in order of the top 4 scorers in franchise history, although, that is not the reason I ordered them that way:

1. Lemieux - sorry, he will never be passed as #1 for this franchise....unless the NHL goes back to wide open 80's hockey.
2. Crosby - Slight edge over Jagr as he has more games in Pens uniform, more points with Pens, and 3 Cups
3. Jagr - If he had played longer with the Penguins, he would easily be right behind Lemieux
4. Malkin - Kind of like Jagr to Lemieux, he's often played 2nd fiddle to Crosby here.
5. Tie - Kehoe/Pronovost

For # 5, if you go by games played and next in line in the scoring department, Kehoe is the choice. If you go by games played, points, and points per game, Francis is the choice. But, I think we also have two biases working at play here.....one is recency bias, and the other is "**** pre-Lemieux Penguins" bias. I got to see Kehoe play some, but not Pronovost. But I think those 2 are rightfully deserving of #5 spot because of their games played with the Penguins, the points put up with Pittsburgh, and realizing those guys put up the numbers they did on mostly horrible Penguins teams. Kehoe and Pronovost didn't play on stacked powerhouse teams like Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby, and Malkin have gotten the opportunity.

Francis would be my #6
Burrows would likely be #7
Fleury would be #8
Letang #9
Straka #10

Hate to leave out Coffey, but he played only 3 full seasons and 2 half seasons here. Syl Apps is another one that could garner some consideration, but he played under 500 games for the Penguins

Barrasso?

He'd be up there in that Coffey, Apps area. It's simply a matter of position. Their are 12 forwards, 6 defense, 1 goalie per team, so forwards should dominate the list, with a defenseman or two, and room for a goalie. Barrasso was key to winning those 2 Cups, but his overall numbers aren't nearly as great as Fleury. Barrasso had 1 40 win season, and 1 30 win season in 12 seasons with the Penguins. GAA under 3 only 2 of those years, SV% above .900 only 4 of those years. If I use Roy as a comparison during his time with Montreal because it's the same era and he was one of the best of that era, in Roy's 11 seasons in MTL, Roy had only 3 seasons UNDER .900SV%, 5 30 win seasons, and a GAA ABOVE 3.00 only twice.

Fleury, on the other hand, had 2 40 win seasons, 6 30 plus win seasons, 3 years above 3.00 GAA, and 2 seasons under .900 SV%.
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:43 am

Jim wrote:Can't put 8 names on a top 5 list, can't put 23 names on a top 10 list.

But I can and did put 6 on a top 5. :pop:
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby pressure=9Pa on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:50 am

Assuming the only thing that matters is Penguin career, then Geno has to be slightly ahead of Jagr. If Jagr had spent his entire playing career in Pittsburgh - different story.
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby Jim on Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:52 am

FLPensFan wrote:
Jim wrote:Can't put 8 names on a top 5 list, can't put 23 names on a top 10 list.

But I can and did put 6 on a top 5. :pop:


Image
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby Guentzel/PenguinsFan on Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:11 pm

1:Lemuiex, arguably the best hockey player ever in he world.
2:Crosby, he is arguably the best player right now.
3:Jágr, the time he was in Pittsburgh he was FANTASTIC.
4:Francis, he was a great fit in Pittsburgh and was a great player.
5:Malkin, a scoring machine
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Re: Top 5 Pens of all time..... In order.

Postby eddiefromirwin on Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:46 pm

A more interesting list would be a bottom 5 list. One of them has to be the guy on the intermission show. He made Craig Adams look like Wayne Gretzky.
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