Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby largegarlic on Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:43 pm

--The Pens looked like garbage the first 10-12 minutes, and the Stars outshot them 7-0 in that stretch (I think). After that, the Stars had 11 shots the rest of the way.
--I'm not sure what the advanced stats say, but based on the eye test, the 4th line was pretty decent. They didn't seem to get stuck in their own end much, and they had some good cycling shifts in the Dallas zone. That combo won't score much, but if they can keep drawing penalties and making the other team play in their own zone until some other forwards get healthy, that's good enough.
--Something is still wrong with Kessel. I think a lot of focus has been on Brassard not playing well enough to get that line going, but Kessel doesn't look right out there, and that's part of the problem too. I know the Pens are still fighting for points, Kessel still has that game streak, and call-ups are limited, but I wouldn't mind Sprong subbing in for him for a couple games, if possible.
--I'm not sure who I'd pick between Jarry and DeSmith to start a playoff game. I feel like Jarry is the lower floor and higher ceiling pick. If the Pens need someone to steal a game where they get outshot 40-25, I'd say Jarry has a better chance to pull that off. If the Pens are expecting to be in control and just need a goalie that won't let in multiple softies, then I might go with DeSmith.
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Pruezy11881 on Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:44 pm

Pensfan4life8771 wrote:
Pens4Life wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:Sheary - Crosby - ZAR ---I know Sheary on first line is nuts but he seems most useful and utilized here. If Crosby needs to carry him so be it...Kunitz 2.0.
Hags - Malkin - Rust --- I know Horny has been on this line but I think Rust and Malkin have epic chemistry.
Kessel - Brassard - Horny ---I think having Horny on this line may give Brassard more freedom to roam and open up.
Simon - Sheehan - Guentzel/Knuckles/Rowney - I think Sheehan and Jake clicked before?

.

Jake on 4th line?? really? :face:



How would you construct the lines based off everyone being back and healthy?

Why not spread out the talent through all four lines and make the Pens absolutely miserable to match up against. If you put Guentzel on first line and put Sheary on the 4th he disappears for 15+ games. At least with Crosby he is relevant again and scores 2 goals against Philly. I get having Jake on 4th line isn't ideal but what other options do you suggest?

With everyone healthy, you'd have to assume Simon goes back to WBS along with Jooris. I wouldn't break up the second line of Malkin, Hags, Horny.

Sheary - Crosby - ZAR/Rust
Hags - Malkin - Hornqvist
Guentzel - Brassard - Kessel
Khunhakl - Sheahan - Rust/ZAR

Extra - Rowney
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:58 pm

Pruezy11881 wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:
Pens4Life wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:Sheary - Crosby - ZAR ---I know Sheary on first line is nuts but he seems most useful and utilized here. If Crosby needs to carry him so be it...Kunitz 2.0.
Hags - Malkin - Rust --- I know Horny has been on this line but I think Rust and Malkin have epic chemistry.
Kessel - Brassard - Horny ---I think having Horny on this line may give Brassard more freedom to roam and open up.
Simon - Sheehan - Guentzel/Knuckles/Rowney - I think Sheehan and Jake clicked before?

.

Jake on 4th line?? really? :face:



How would you construct the lines based off everyone being back and healthy?

Why not spread out the talent through all four lines and make the Pens absolutely miserable to match up against. If you put Guentzel on first line and put Sheary on the 4th he disappears for 15+ games. At least with Crosby he is relevant again and scores 2 goals against Philly. I get having Jake on 4th line isn't ideal but what other options do you suggest?

With everyone healthy, you'd have to assume Simon goes back to WBS along with Jooris. I wouldn't break up the second line of Malkin, Hags, Horny.

Sheary - Crosby - ZAR/Rust
Hags - Malkin - Hornqvist
Guentzel - Brassard - Kessel
Khunhakl - Sheahan - Rust/ZAR

Extra - Rowney



This could also work. I like the idea of Sheary with Crosby / Malkin with Hags/ Kessel with Brassard so building around that works. I like your third line. Brassard goes to the dirty areas...Kessel shoots and Guentzel feeds everyone. I could def. get behind that 3rd line.
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:59 pm

I also think Oleksiak could become Schultz of 2016 playoff run where he comes out of nowhere and does incredibly well.
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby murphydump55 on Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:36 pm

largegarlic wrote:--The Pens looked like garbage the first 10-12 minutes, and the Stars outshot them 7-0 in that stretch (I think). After that, the Stars had 11 shots the rest of the way.
--I'm not sure what the advanced stats say, but based on the eye test, the 4th line was pretty decent. They didn't seem to get stuck in their own end much, and they had some good cycling shifts in the Dallas zone. That combo won't score much, but if they can keep drawing penalties and making the other team play in their own zone until some other forwards get healthy, that's good enough.
--Something is still wrong with Kessel. I think a lot of focus has been on Brassard not playing well enough to get that line going, but Kessel doesn't look right out there, and that's part of the problem too. I know the Pens are still fighting for points, Kessel still has that game streak, and call-ups are limited, but I wouldn't mind Sprong subbing in for him for a couple games, if possible.
--I'm not sure who I'd pick between Jarry and DeSmith to start a playoff game. I feel like Jarry is the lower floor and higher ceiling pick. If the Pens need someone to steal a game where they get outshot 40-25, I'd say Jarry has a better chance to pull that off. If the Pens are expecting to be in control and just need a goalie that won't let in multiple softies, then I might go with DeSmith.


Advanced stats said the 4th was good last night.
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Puck-Lurker on Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:47 pm

Pensfan4life8771 wrote:I also think Oleksiak could become Schultz of 2016 playoff run where he comes out of nowhere and does incredibly well.

He's looking more and more like a steal.

He did play against his former team. Grudge matches are great. Oleksiak pairing with Schultz still terrifies me, but it's working. The only struggling pair is Tang/Dumo and they were fine against Dallas mostly.

Jamie fits our system a lot better than anyone would've thought. HE is our Cole replacement going forward. :thumb:
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Dr Rosenrosen on Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:28 pm

murphydump55 wrote:
largegarlic wrote:--The Pens looked like garbage the first 10-12 minutes, and the Stars outshot them 7-0 in that stretch (I think). After that, the Stars had 11 shots the rest of the way.
--I'm not sure what the advanced stats say, but based on the eye test, the 4th line was pretty decent. They didn't seem to get stuck in their own end much, and they had some good cycling shifts in the Dallas zone. That combo won't score much, but if they can keep drawing penalties and making the other team play in their own zone until some other forwards get healthy, that's good enough.
--Something is still wrong with Kessel. I think a lot of focus has been on Brassard not playing well enough to get that line going, but Kessel doesn't look right out there, and that's part of the problem too. I know the Pens are still fighting for points, Kessel still has that game streak, and call-ups are limited, but I wouldn't mind Sprong subbing in for him for a couple games, if possible.
--I'm not sure who I'd pick between Jarry and DeSmith to start a playoff game. I feel like Jarry is the lower floor and higher ceiling pick. If the Pens need someone to steal a game where they get outshot 40-25, I'd say Jarry has a better chance to pull that off. If the Pens are expecting to be in control and just need a goalie that won't let in multiple softies, then I might go with DeSmith.


Advanced stats said the 4th was good last night.

And Sully said it with the ice time he gave them.
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Mango Salsa on Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:14 am

On Kessel - remember a week or two ago he went into the boards and came up favoring what looked to be a collar bone. Next game he hit the boards again and was again visibly shaken on the bench. VS Dallas he turned his back to a hit and the Stars player hit him from behind (clean) in the neutral zone. He was shaken again and went slowly to the bench which led to the Penguins being offside.

F the streak, Phil. We need you right for the playoffs.
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby longtimefan on Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:25 am

Mango Salsa wrote:On Kessel - remember a week or two ago he went into the boards and came up favoring what looked to be a collar bone. Next game he hit the boards again and was again visibly shaken on the bench. VS Dallas he turned his back to a hit and the Stars player hit him from behind (clean) in the neutral zone. He was shaken again and went slowly to the bench which led to the Penguins being offside.

F the streak, Phil. We need you right for the playoffs.


No doubt the streak is important to Phil. To the team, I don't think they could care less. I don't think they'd purposely put Phil into peril if they believed he could be hurt worse. I'm no doctor, but we've heard for years about injuries that exist, but are not likely to get worse through playing. Which usually leaves it to the players pain threshold. My guess is that's the situation. It's unfortunate, with us just acquiring Brassard. The nice thing is, after back to back games Wednesday and Thursday, they'll be off until next Tuesday. Which will be good in so many ways. It will gives guys a chance to treat the bumps and bruises, and they should be able to get in some good practice time. Phil's hurt, but I have to believe the team believes it's an injury that won't get worse through playing. At that point, you leave the decision to Phil whether he can play through it. Ultimately, it's his streak.
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby longtimefan on Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:01 am

FLPensFan wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:- I am starting to feel like if needed I would turn to DeSmith over Jarry this post-season.


Uh, but to forget the DeSmith meltdown against Boston. They are both young goalies, and are both inconsistent. It's nice there are two of them, so you can go with the hot hand. Jarry had won three straight games after the Boston debacle, then DeSmith stepped back in and did a nice job. In fairness though, it was probably the best defensive performance of the year in front of him. Reality says the Pens are in trouble if either has to play extended minutes in the playoffs. It will be nice to get Murray back, so we can see the full team together.

- Kessel and Brassard just do no have the chemistry.


Patience. Brassard has played seven games here. The last time I recall the Pens acquiring a name center near the deadline, he struggled initially as well. Until he acclimated. Then it worked out. That was Ron Francis. Next to goaltending, center is the most important position on the ice. It carries the most responsibility. He comes here from Ottawa, which is the complete opposite in terms of style. He's asked to play less minutes than he's accustomed to. They've wanted to see him on the PK, which he's never done for any period of time in the NHL. Plus, he's to have instant chemistry with Phil. He may not develop any, but it's way to early to judge in my opinion. I've isolated on him at the games quite a bit. He's highly skilled, quick, and nifty. He's a good hockey player, with pedigree. Remember, he was a 6th overall pick himself. He was very involved in the sequence of plays that led up to Oleksiak's goal. Also remember, they haven't had a consistent presence on the left side. I personally would like to see ZAR given a chance, or maybe let ZAR play with Sid, and move Jake back. The point is, it's a work in progress. They wanted a 3rd line center so they could separate Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel. I can't see them abandoning that plan anytime soon.

I certainly am not trying to belittle your points, they have some validity. Patience though. In terms of Brassard, you just picked up your 4th highest skilled forward. He arrived here two weeks ago tomorrow. He's the right guy. Just give it some time. In terms of DeSmith or Jarry. Both have been very good and very bad. Just inconsistencies of young goalies. The Pens don't have the luxury of a Fleury now. It's on Murray to stay healthy to have any real shot at the Cup. Which is true with most teams in the playoffs. Good trivia question. Who backed up MAF when we beat the Wings in 2009? It's on Matt this time around.

I get what you are saying about patience, but there is a fine line of being patient and realizing it isn't working, and having enough time before the playoffs to find something that does work.

I'm not saying the Penguins are at that point yet, but I don't think you can wait until the end of the season and have the 3rd line still not being effective. Brassard has played 7 games so far with the Penguins. I think you give him another 2 weeks, which is 5 games, to get acclimated and show something. If the chemistry isn't there through 12 games, I think you have to move on and find something that does work with the 7 games you have left heading into the playoffs.

If you use Sheahan as an example, Sheahan had 1 assist in his first 10 games here. Then he had 9 points over his next 14 games, and was pretty consistent from that point forward. To me, I thought I saw some good things with that line tonight that they may be close. Let's see how the next two games go. If Brassard doesn't work out, it could be as simple as shifting Sheahan to 3C and Brassard to LW. Let Sheahan be the setup guy for the line and dish to Kessel and Brassard.

No need to panic yet, but ok to have some concern.


I guess I just tend to take less of a micro management approach. The other thing is, I've had the opportunity to see him four times now in person. I've made it a point to follow him more than usual. Brassard is easily the fourth most talented forward on this team. The Pens should be excited. So I have no problems giving it the time it needs. The one thing I disagree with is that I think there is no chance they'd move Brassard to wing. JR was asked when he was acquired, and he allowed he might be able to bump up on the top two lines on the wing occasionally, but he's a center. A good center. If a move were to be made, I think it might be moving Kessel back up with Malkin, and trying Hornqvist. However, I don't think they are even close to that. Also remember that Kessel hasn't seemed healthy since Brassard got here. So it's kind of unfair to blame the lack of production solely on a lack of chemistry. You mentioned in another thread that you started to watch the team shortly before Mario arrived. So think back to Francis. Also remember it was a much more offensive game. Ronnie played 14 regular season games, scoring 2 goals and 11 points as the 2nd line center. Nobody really said much, since the team seemed to quit losing. He didn't hit his stride until the playoffs wore on. He had the adjustment of going from being a clear cut #1 to a #2. The thing is, the mere addition of a player of Brassard's ilk changes the game plan for the other side. I firmly believe the chemistry will come.

I've got a confession. I take the whole chemistry thing with a grain of salt. Set lines were the norm in the '70's and '80's, but it doesn't seem to be the case anymore. It was also very unusual for a team to roll 4 lines. Chemistry seems to be very fleeting. Two seasons ago, HBK was all the rage. But they never came close to finding success together last season. Kessel was first tried on a 3rd line because he couldn't find chemistry with either Crosby or Malkin. Yet he and Geno seemed to do fine together last season. People often complain about Hornqvist with Crosby, yet advanced stats say it's who Horny performs best with. Sid may not like Horny's style, but it actually plays well because Horny's always at the net. Last year Sid and the kids were all the rage. Especially Guentzel. He had chemistry like no one else besides Hossa. Yet, it hasn't continued this year. In fact, Jake was getting hot on the left side of Sheahan and Kessel. Chemistry is fickle. HBK was a product of a Malkin injury.

The coaches have to find the right chemistry. We're fans, so we'll fret and play GM in our minds. It's all about being a fan, and hockey is well set up for line arguments. Lines matter, but it all starts in the middle. We know it. It was all the talk on here from July until March. It's also why you don't consider moving Brassard to the wing. I'm excited, because Brassard gives them a real jolt of skill up front.

Like JR said, it's all about the middle. The Pens have Crosby, Malkin, Brassard, and Sheahan. Sheahan will bounce around to a wing in certain situations, like when you want a 2nd faceoff option. From there, you need to fill in the lines with your wings. The team hasn't really stopped scoring. As long as that's true, I tend not to overthink it. Up front, I think this is the best team of the last three. The familiarity the forwards have with one another will likely lead to some line juggling. It's a huge edge if used properly. The key will be the depth on D, and keeping Murray healthy.

Another interesting question is who sits when everybody's healthy? The definites are Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Guentzel, Hornqvist, Hagelin, Brassard, Sheahan and Rust. So that leaves Sheary, ZAR, Simon, Kuhnhackl, Rowney, and Jooris will be available for the playoffs. So, who sits? Rowney looks a lot better as a RW, and gives them a RH faceoff guy who kills penalties. Or does the versatile Rust end up with Sheahan, who he's played with all the way back to Notre Dame? I personally believe that ZAR is the key. They could use somebody with his style and size to seize one of the three top LW positions. I suspect Kuhnhackl's spot is relatively safe because of his penalty killing. It's an interesting question. It could come down to Sheary or Rowney, with the decision not being an easy one, and Simon or ZAR. Just my opinions of course. :)
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Jim on Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:21 am

Pensfan4life8771 wrote:Why not spread out the talent through all four lines and make the Pens absolutely miserable to match up against.


Because Sullivan has absolutely no idea of how to use a 4th line?
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby pens_CT on Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:27 am

longtimefan wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:- I am starting to feel like if needed I would turn to DeSmith over Jarry this post-season.


Uh, but to forget the DeSmith meltdown against Boston. They are both young goalies, and are both inconsistent. It's nice there are two of them, so you can go with the hot hand. Jarry had won three straight games after the Boston debacle, then DeSmith stepped back in and did a nice job. In fairness though, it was probably the best defensive performance of the year in front of him. Reality says the Pens are in trouble if either has to play extended minutes in the playoffs. It will be nice to get Murray back, so we can see the full team together.

- Kessel and Brassard just do no have the chemistry.


Patience. Brassard has played seven games here. The last time I recall the Pens acquiring a name center near the deadline, he struggled initially as well. Until he acclimated. Then it worked out. That was Ron Francis. Next to goaltending, center is the most important position on the ice. It carries the most responsibility. He comes here from Ottawa, which is the complete opposite in terms of style. He's asked to play less minutes than he's accustomed to. They've wanted to see him on the PK, which he's never done for any period of time in the NHL. Plus, he's to have instant chemistry with Phil. He may not develop any, but it's way to early to judge in my opinion. I've isolated on him at the games quite a bit. He's highly skilled, quick, and nifty. He's a good hockey player, with pedigree. Remember, he was a 6th overall pick himself. He was very involved in the sequence of plays that led up to Oleksiak's goal. Also remember, they haven't had a consistent presence on the left side. I personally would like to see ZAR given a chance, or maybe let ZAR play with Sid, and move Jake back. The point is, it's a work in progress. They wanted a 3rd line center so they could separate Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel. I can't see them abandoning that plan anytime soon.

I certainly am not trying to belittle your points, they have some validity. Patience though. In terms of Brassard, you just picked up your 4th highest skilled forward. He arrived here two weeks ago tomorrow. He's the right guy. Just give it some time. In terms of DeSmith or Jarry. Both have been very good and very bad. Just inconsistencies of young goalies. The Pens don't have the luxury of a Fleury now. It's on Murray to stay healthy to have any real shot at the Cup. Which is true with most teams in the playoffs. Good trivia question. Who backed up MAF when we beat the Wings in 2009? It's on Matt this time around.

I get what you are saying about patience, but there is a fine line of being patient and realizing it isn't working, and having enough time before the playoffs to find something that does work.

I'm not saying the Penguins are at that point yet, but I don't think you can wait until the end of the season and have the 3rd line still not being effective. Brassard has played 7 games so far with the Penguins. I think you give him another 2 weeks, which is 5 games, to get acclimated and show something. If the chemistry isn't there through 12 games, I think you have to move on and find something that does work with the 7 games you have left heading into the playoffs.

If you use Sheahan as an example, Sheahan had 1 assist in his first 10 games here. Then he had 9 points over his next 14 games, and was pretty consistent from that point forward. To me, I thought I saw some good things with that line tonight that they may be close. Let's see how the next two games go. If Brassard doesn't work out, it could be as simple as shifting Sheahan to 3C and Brassard to LW. Let Sheahan be the setup guy for the line and dish to Kessel and Brassard.

No need to panic yet, but ok to have some concern.


I guess I just tend to take less of a micro management approach. The other thing is, I've had the opportunity to see him four times now in person. I've made it a point to follow him more than usual. Brassard is easily the fourth most talented forward on this team. The Pens should be excited. So I have no problems giving it the time it needs. The one thing I disagree with is that I think there is no chance they'd move Brassard to wing. JR was asked when he was acquired, and he allowed he might be able to bump up on the top two lines on the wing occasionally, but he's a center. A good center. If a move were to be made, I think it might be moving Kessel back up with Malkin, and trying Hornqvist. However, I don't think they are even close to that. Also remember that Kessel hasn't seemed healthy since Brassard got here. So it's kind of unfair to blame the lack of production solely on a lack of chemistry. You mentioned in another thread that you started to watch the team shortly before Mario arrived. So think back to Francis. Also remember it was a much more offensive game. Ronnie played 14 regular season games, scoring 2 goals and 11 points as the 2nd line center. Nobody really said much, since the team seemed to quit losing. He didn't hit his stride until the playoffs wore on. He had the adjustment of going from being a clear cut #1 to a #2. The thing is, the mere addition of a player of Brassard's ilk changes the game plan for the other side. I firmly believe the chemistry will come.

I've got a confession. I take the whole chemistry thing with a grain of salt. Set lines were the norm in the '70's and '80's, but it doesn't seem to be the case anymore. It was also very unusual for a team to roll 4 lines. Chemistry seems to be very fleeting. Two seasons ago, HBK was all the rage. But they never came close to finding success together last season. Kessel was first tried on a 3rd line because he couldn't find chemistry with either Crosby or Malkin. Yet he and Geno seemed to do fine together last season. People often complain about Hornqvist with Crosby, yet advanced stats say it's who Horny performs best with. Sid may not like Horny's style, but it actually plays well because Horny's always at the net. Last year Sid and the kids were all the rage. Especially Guentzel. He had chemistry like no one else besides Hossa. Yet, it hasn't continued this year. In fact, Jake was getting hot on the left side of Sheahan and Kessel. Chemistry is fickle. HBK was a product of a Malkin injury.

The coaches have to find the right chemistry. We're fans, so we'll fret and play GM in our minds. It's all about being a fan, and hockey is well set up for line arguments. Lines matter, but it all starts in the middle. We know it. It was all the talk on here from July until March. It's also why you don't consider moving Brassard to the wing. I'm excited, because Brassard gives them a real jolt of skill up front.

Like JR said, it's all about the middle. The Pens have Crosby, Malkin, Brassard, and Sheahan. Sheahan will bounce around to a wing in certain situations, like when you want a 2nd faceoff option. From there, you need to fill in the lines with your wings. The team hasn't really stopped scoring. As long as that's true, I tend not to overthink it. Up front, I think this is the best team of the last three. The familiarity the forwards have with one another will likely lead to some line juggling. It's a huge edge if used properly. The key will be the depth on D, and keeping Murray healthy.

Another interesting question is who sits when everybody's healthy? The definites are Crosby, Malkin, Kessel, Guentzel, Hornqvist, Hagelin, Brassard, Sheahan and Rust. So that leaves Sheary, ZAR, Simon, Kuhnhackl, Rowney, and Jooris will be available for the playoffs. So, who sits? Rowney looks a lot better as a RW, and gives them a RH faceoff guy who kills penalties. Or does the versatile Rust end up with Sheahan, who he's played with all the way back to Notre Dame? I personally believe that ZAR is the key. They could use somebody with his style and size to seize one of the three top LW positions. I suspect Kuhnhackl's spot is relatively safe because of his penalty killing. It's an interesting question. It could come down to Sheary or Rowney, with the decision not being an easy one, and Simon or ZAR. Just my opinions of course. :)


I guess we can worry about who plays/sits when we have a fully healthy forward grouping, which excuse me for being negative, never seems to happen for any length of time.
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby longtimefan on Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:02 am

Jim wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:Why not spread out the talent through all four lines and make the Pens absolutely miserable to match up against.


Because Sullivan has absolutely no idea of how to use a 4th line?


I think that's really haesh about a coach who has back to back Cups, and his team has been lauded for its ability to roll four lines when healthy. He simply was spread too thin at center to construct a solid 4th line earlier in the season. He had no issues when Bonino and Cullen were both playing. It's a shame we never got to see Reaves with a consistent, bonafide, center. He had Sheahan for a few games, but never got the chance to settle in. Unfortunately, he was the cost to get the Cap savings. So now he's got flexibility to roll four competent NHL centers. The acquisition of Jooris should tell us a little about how they really felt about Rowney in the middle. Which was unfair to him as well. He's never been anything special, and never will be, but he played competently on the right side during last year's cup run. He also will look better with a competent center. It's still the 4th line, and they won't get as many minutes as the other guys. It's still a specialty line. Be it a heavy line, a line full of PKer's, or a line with a bit of offensive flair. The flair won't come from someone like Guentzel though. More likely Sheary or Rust, or maybe ZAR.
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Dr Rosenrosen on Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:58 pm

Jim wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:Why not spread out the talent through all four lines and make the Pens absolutely miserable to match up against.


Because Sullivan has absolutely no idea of how to use a 4th line?

Imagine a gif of Sullivan showing you his Championship rings.
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Jim on Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:10 am

Dr Rosenrosen wrote:
Jim wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:Why not spread out the talent through all four lines and make the Pens absolutely miserable to match up against.


Because Sullivan has absolutely no idea of how to use a 4th line?

Imagine a gif of Sullivan showing you his Championship rings.


So he is beyond reproach then?

No.
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Humperdink on Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:25 am

Jim wrote:
Dr Rosenrosen wrote:
Jim wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:Why not spread out the talent through all four lines and make the Pens absolutely miserable to match up against.


Because Sullivan has absolutely no idea of how to use a 4th line?

Imagine a gif of Sullivan showing you his Championship rings.


So he is beyond reproach then?

No.


I am also imagining a GIF of Disco Dan displaying his championship ring and what it earned - several years of the Pens languishing w/o any additional Stanley Cups.

Sully is a very good coach, but he is not above criticism. IMO, his handling of Ian Cole/Ryan Reaves was less than stellar.
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby longtimefan on Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:23 am

Humperdink wrote:
Jim wrote:
Dr Rosenrosen wrote:
Jim wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:Why not spread out the talent through all four lines and make the Pens absolutely miserable to match up against.


Because Sullivan has absolutely no idea of how to use a 4th line?

Imagine a gif of Sullivan showing you his Championship rings.


So he is beyond reproach then?

No.


I am also imagining a GIF of Disco Dan displaying his championship ring and what it earned - several years of the Pens languishing w/o any additional Stanley Cups.

Sully is a very good coach, but he is not above criticism. IMO, his handling of Ian Cole/Ryan Reaves was less than stellar.


I agree that no one is above criticism. Second guessing is part of being a fan. The only thing that grates me at times, are the definitive statements. As if we are certain we could do so much better. That, I find laughable. I'm old school I guess. Criticism is fine, but be respectful. Credibility is lost when you make blanket statements like he has no idea. He is way more qualified than any of us. Plus, an explanation. Not just a statement. Like, why doesn't he have any idea of how to handle a 4th line? After winning back to back cups when rolling four lines was part of the trademark. This season, have at it. But the narrative doesn't make sense if you say he has no idea.

A coach is an important component. As long as they win, it's okay. They still aren't above reproach. Scottie Bowman inherited a Stanley Cup champion, but had no use for Mark Recchi or Paul Coffey. He tried to make Recchi a center, and Coffey a LW. For that he's wide open for criticism. His comeback would be to point at the '92 Cup. Was it the right move long term? Who knows.

Sully frustrates me at times, as he does us all. Every coach they've ever had frustrated me on occasion. Including the two HOFers. I just think if you going to criticize, you should expound on your view. Playing devil's advocate for a moment on the Reaves/Cole situation, I think some of the criticism may be fair, but also a bit overblown.

As far as Cole goes, we don't see everything that goes on behind the scenes. We may not see the expectations of the staff not being met. Cole, by his own admission, is a bit of a challenge personality wise. I've heard him described as a free spirit, who doesn't always take direction well. He has been a healthy scratch for stretches throughout his career. By Hitchcock before Sullivan. He's a bottom pair defenseman who ultimately brought a 3rd round pick at the deadline. To be a bottom pairing defenseman in Columbus. Even Cole's statement about looking forward to seeing what Torts was all about tells you a bit about his personality. Everybody says personality shouldn't matter, but that's not real life. Is it real life where you work? The bottom line is his leash is going to be much shorter than Letang's. Because his upside is that as a #5 defensemen. Getting under the coaching staff's skin is not good........ Yet, look at how Sully actually handled the situation. He sat him. For a long time. Something they didn't like. But, Sully didn't banish him forever. Instead he had paired Cole with Oleksiak, and it was obvious he had regained his spot in the top six. Any conflict didn't keep them from allowing him to regain his position. Unfortunately, Cole became a victim of the Brassard trade, and has caused us a lot of angst because of the depth on D. He wasn't traded because Sully ran him out of town though. He allowed him to regain his spot in the lineup.

The Reaves situation is different. First of all, I think everybody knew Sully was a bit apprehensive about JR's proclamation of toughening up. But he was mainly a victim of the Pens being so weak down the middle most of the season. I believe Reaves had the ability to be a force, but he required a competent NHL center. He looked his best in my opinion, when he played those few games with Sheahan. He's not going to make plays on his own, but can be very useful with the right linemates. The lack of center depth cost us, and Sully, a chance to see how Reaves would fit in. The fourth line wasn't trusted mainly because Rowney is not an NHL quality center. Even Jooris would have given Reaves a better opportunity. Again, there was no push out of town. They wanted to hold onto him. He just became the price necessary to make Brassard fit under the cap.

No coach is above reproach. Bob Johnson ran Robbie Brown out of town two seasons after he scored 49 goals. Made him a healthy scratch, and traded him for what became a spare part, Scott Young. Badger preferred speed to size, Bowman being the opposite. Hence the trade of Recchi and Coffey for Tocchet and Kjell Samuelsson. Therien always wanted a Laraque or Godard. Bylsma routinely scratched Godard until his contract expired. 20/20 hindsight always tells a different story.

I just believe if you're going to criticize, you should explain your thought process. And also accept the fact that the coaches are much more qualified than any of us would ever dream of being. So criticize, but at least explain what you would have done differently. Otherwise, your criticism has no credibility.
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Owchar76 on Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:07 pm

Longtimefan, you should change your handle to Longtimepost :)
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Humperdink on Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:31 pm

@Longtimefan

I presume you have read earlier posts regarding my opinion of Cole, but I will repeat myself. The guy was a gladiator. Not sure if he or Mooseknuckle led the team in blocked shots, but I know he led the team in blocked shots with his face. He added toughness to our D, which we will need down the stretch. Coaches have a choice: they mold "free spirits" or they can bounce them. He was bounced. Things may work out as Oleksiak has been a rather large surprise.

Reaves? I was a huge Reaves fan. I have commented enough on Reaves. Beating a dead (and departed) horse.
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Jim on Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:44 pm

longtimefan wrote:
Humperdink wrote:
Jim wrote:
Dr Rosenrosen wrote:
Jim wrote:Because Sullivan has absolutely no idea of how to use a 4th line?

Imagine a gif of Sullivan showing you his Championship rings.


So he is beyond reproach then?

No.


I am also imagining a GIF of Disco Dan displaying his championship ring and what it earned - several years of the Pens languishing w/o any additional Stanley Cups.

Sully is a very good coach, but he is not above criticism. IMO, his handling of Ian Cole/Ryan Reaves was less than stellar.


I agree that no one is above criticism. Second guessing is part of being a fan. The only thing that grates me at times, are the definitive statements. As if we are certain we could do so much better. That, I find laughable. I'm old school I guess. Criticism is fine, but be respectful. Credibility is lost when you make blanket statements like he has no idea. He is way more qualified than any of us. Plus, an explanation. Not just a statement. Like, why doesn't he have any idea of how to handle a 4th line? After winning back to back cups when rolling four lines was part of the trademark. This season, have at it. But the narrative doesn't make sense if you say he has no idea.

A coach is an important component. As long as they win, it's okay. They still aren't above reproach. Scottie Bowman inherited a Stanley Cup champion, but had no use for Mark Recchi or Paul Coffey. He tried to make Recchi a center, and Coffey a LW. For that he's wide open for criticism. His comeback would be to point at the '92 Cup. Was it the right move long term? Who knows.

Sully frustrates me at times, as he does us all. Every coach they've ever had frustrated me on occasion. Including the two HOFers. I just think if you going to criticize, you should expound on your view. Playing devil's advocate for a moment on the Reaves/Cole situation, I think some of the criticism may be fair, but also a bit overblown.

As far as Cole goes, we don't see everything that goes on behind the scenes. We may not see the expectations of the staff not being met. Cole, by his own admission, is a bit of a challenge personality wise. I've heard him described as a free spirit, who doesn't always take direction well. He has been a healthy scratch for stretches throughout his career. By Hitchcock before Sullivan. He's a bottom pair defenseman who ultimately brought a 3rd round pick at the deadline. To be a bottom pairing defenseman in Columbus. Even Cole's statement about looking forward to seeing what Torts was all about tells you a bit about his personality. Everybody says personality shouldn't matter, but that's not real life. Is it real life where you work? The bottom line is his leash is going to be much shorter than Letang's. Because his upside is that as a #5 defensemen. Getting under the coaching staff's skin is not good........ Yet, look at how Sully actually handled the situation. He sat him. For a long time. Something they didn't like. But, Sully didn't banish him forever. Instead he had paired Cole with Oleksiak, and it was obvious he had regained his spot in the top six. Any conflict didn't keep them from allowing him to regain his position. Unfortunately, Cole became a victim of the Brassard trade, and has caused us a lot of angst because of the depth on D. He wasn't traded because Sully ran him out of town though. He allowed him to regain his spot in the lineup.

The Reaves situation is different. First of all, I think everybody knew Sully was a bit apprehensive about JR's proclamation of toughening up. But he was mainly a victim of the Pens being so weak down the middle most of the season. I believe Reaves had the ability to be a force, but he required a competent NHL center. He looked his best in my opinion, when he played those few games with Sheahan. He's not going to make plays on his own, but can be very useful with the right linemates. The lack of center depth cost us, and Sully, a chance to see how Reaves would fit in. The fourth line wasn't trusted mainly because Rowney is not an NHL quality center. Even Jooris would have given Reaves a better opportunity. Again, there was no push out of town. They wanted to hold onto him. He just became the price necessary to make Brassard fit under the cap.

No coach is above reproach. Bob Johnson ran Robbie Brown out of town two seasons after he scored 49 goals. Made him a healthy scratch, and traded him for what became a spare part, Scott Young. Badger preferred speed to size, Bowman being the opposite. Hence the trade of Recchi and Coffey for Tocchet and Kjell Samuelsson. Therien always wanted a Laraque or Godard. Bylsma routinely scratched Godard until his contract expired. 20/20 hindsight always tells a different story.

I just believe if you're going to criticize, you should explain your thought process. And also accept the fact that the coaches are much more qualified than any of us would ever dream of being. So criticize, but at least explain what you would have done differently. Otherwise, your criticism has no credibility.


A. If you and everyone else actually believed what you say in this post, then there is no point in ever commenting on anything because they are more qualified, so they know what they are doing so us saying anything is completely pointless and/or redundant... nothing anyone says would have credibility.

B. He has absolutely no idea of how to use a 4th line.
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby longtimefan on Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:49 pm

A. If you and everyone else actually believed what you say in this post, then there is no point in ever commenting on anything because they are more qualified, so they know what they are doing so us saying anything is completely pointless and/or redundant... nothing anyone says would have credibility.

B. He has absolutely no idea of how to use a 4th line.


I'm all ears. Tell me why? What are your qualifications? Even if you're just a fan, just saying he has no idea is childish. Give us your reasons and opinions. It's hard to respect because you say it's so. Especially with the cullen line the last two seasons.
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Jim on Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:59 pm

longtimefan wrote:
A. If you and everyone else actually believed what you say in this post, then there is no point in ever commenting on anything because they are more qualified, so they know what they are doing so us saying anything is completely pointless and/or redundant... nothing anyone says would have credibility.

B. He has absolutely no idea of how to use a 4th line.


I'm all ears. Tell me why? What are your qualifications? Even if you're just a fan, just saying he has no idea is childish. ive us your reasons and opinions. It's hard to respect because you say so.


What are your qualifications to question me?

It's a message board, not a high level hockey coaching and management seminar.

Watch a game and figure it out. If you can't figure it out by watching then I suppose that explains why you want everything outlined in detail on here...
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby longtimefan on Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:40 pm

Jim wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
A. If you and everyone else actually believed what you say in this post, then there is no point in ever commenting on anything because they are more qualified, so they know what they are doing so us saying anything is completely pointless and/or redundant... nothing anyone says would have credibility.

B. He has absolutely no idea of how to use a 4th line.


I'm all ears. Tell me why? What are your qualifications? Even if you're just a fan, just saying he has no idea is childish. ive us your reasons and opinions. It's hard to respect because you say so.


What are your qualifications to question me?

It's a message board, not a high level hockey coaching and management seminar.

Watch a game and figure it out. If you can't figure it out by watching then I suppose that explains why you want everything outlined in detail on here...


Oh I've watched games. Close to 1500 at this point in person, including about 140 the last three seasons. Plus I've had the equivalent of Center Ice since '87 or '88. So I've watched a ton. I'm still smart enough to know that I can't tell much watching a game on television as opposed to in person. And I'm smart enough to look at different points of view. Some I find ludicrous in their thinking, but that's my opinion. They've at least given reasons for their line of thinking. YOu make a blanket remark that he can't coach a 4th line. I point out that the Cullen line was pretty effective. You point out that you say so. Very constructive. It's a message board as you say. Where people come to exchange thoughts. You often just put down others, while, in reality, offering no more than noise yourself. Question what you want, but justify it. If you don't want to discuss it, why bring it up?
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Jim on Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:01 pm

Speaking of offering no more than noise...
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Re: Game 70 vs Stars - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Jim on Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:05 pm

A year ago, or maybe two, someone was crying about people posting opinion as statements. Apparently they wanted everyone to start basically every post with "In my opinion..." or some such garbage. That was a fun few days of seeing them constantly whining and crying at people for making "statements" as opposed to posting opinions.

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