2018 Summer Game Plan

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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby 100565 on Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:41 am

Another perspective would be the Pens won the two cups due to infusion of youth (rookies and 2nd year) that had significant contributions in the playoffs.

Now, the Pens only have Jarry and Sprong.

The reality is the Pens cupboard is bare, and the food on the table is starting to go stale.

I would move Kessel now for youth to win a cup next year.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby interstorm on Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:00 am

Read something today:

The Canadiens and Canucks reportedly tried to sign Lucic two years ago. Mathias Brunet of La Presse suggested the Canadiens propose taking the big winger off Edmonton's hands provided they agree to package him with their first-round pick (10th overall) in this year's draft. Staples, however, doesn't see the Oilers agreeing to that poison pill.


http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/news/nh ... i3bfv27w7u

Now I'll be the first to say I'm not looking to add another 30 year old (especially an under-performing one) to the team...but a few thoughts on Lucic:
* The Penguins are desperately in need of some grit -- and grit that can legitimately play (unlike Reaves). Lucic could easily step into that much needed role.
* The Oilers are in bind with their cap and need to trim space wherever (and however) possible. This makes Lucic, especially given his play last year, a priority to move. But what team wants to pay $6M for 10 goals / 24 A? Edmonton knows they will have to do some work here -- especially given Lucic has FIVE more years on that contract!
* The Penguins, like every team, want to make a move to adjust their roster in order to better fill gaps. While Lucic **may** fill that grit gap -- we'd need to move someone out. Conor Sheary has been kicked around on this board a lot but he still scored 18 goals this season. The knock on Sheary is that he needs Crosby (or a great center) to play with -- Edmonton can fulfill that requirement.

So I'm looking at a deal of Sheary to Edmonton for Lucic and that 10th overall pick in this year's draft (maybe we can throw back a later one). We're taking on salary -- bloated, overpaid salary -- but a person who definitely fits a role of need on the team. Place him on the 3rd line, potentially elevate him from time to time if there is chemistry and look to use that 10th overall to add to the pipeline. In a couple years send Lucic and a 2nd round to Arizona to get him off the books when/if his value declines too much.

Would Edmonton go for it? They do need to do something.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:08 am

interstorm wrote:Read something today:

The Canadiens and Canucks reportedly tried to sign Lucic two years ago. Mathias Brunet of La Presse suggested the Canadiens propose taking the big winger off Edmonton's hands provided they agree to package him with their first-round pick (10th overall) in this year's draft. Staples, however, doesn't see the Oilers agreeing to that poison pill.


http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/news/nh ... i3bfv27w7u

Now I'll be the first to say I'm not looking to add another 30 year old (especially an under-performing one) to the team...but a few thoughts on Lucic:
* The Penguins are desperately in need of some grit -- and grit that can legitimately play (unlike Reaves). Lucic could easily step into that much needed role.
* The Oilers are in bind with their cap and need to trim space wherever (and however) possible. This makes Lucic, especially given his play last year, a priority to move. But what team wants to pay $6M for 10 goals / 24 A? Edmonton knows they will have to do some work here -- especially given Lucic has FIVE more years on that contract!
* The Penguins, like every team, want to make a move to adjust their roster in order to better fill gaps. While Lucic **may** fill that grit gap -- we'd need to move someone out. Conor Sheary has been kicked around on this board a lot but he still scored 18 goals this season. The knock on Sheary is that he needs Crosby (or a great center) to play with -- Edmonton can fulfill that requirement.

So I'm looking at a deal of Sheary to Edmonton for Lucic and that 10th overall pick in this year's draft (maybe we can throw back a later one). We're taking on salary -- bloated, overpaid salary -- but a person who definitely fits a role of need on the team. Place him on the 3rd line, potentially elevate him from time to time if there is chemistry and look to use that 10th overall to add to the pipeline. In a couple years send Lucic and a 2nd round to Arizona to get him off the books when/if his value declines too much.

Would Edmonton go for it? They do need to do something.


Would the Penguins go for it? Is that 10th overall pick worth such a lousy contract for a 4th liner (at this stage of his career)?
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Jim on Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:16 am

The only way that I am talking about being Lucic in would start with 50% retention by Edmonton, and I don't see that happening.

Hagelin's $4M for a last year and next shows the burden of a bad contract on this team. Lucic's $6M cap hit for the next 5 seasons would be a killer. That much dead space would basically secure no more Cups for the Crosby/Malkin era. 1st round picks, even #10 overall, don't guarantee a dang thing. As the Pens, I wouldn't take Lucic's contract for the Olier's next four 1st round picks.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:30 am

interstorm wrote:Read something today:

The Canadiens and Canucks reportedly tried to sign Lucic two years ago. Mathias Brunet of La Presse suggested the Canadiens propose taking the big winger off Edmonton's hands provided they agree to package him with their first-round pick (10th overall) in this year's draft. Staples, however, doesn't see the Oilers agreeing to that poison pill.


http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/news/nh ... i3bfv27w7u

Now I'll be the first to say I'm not looking to add another 30 year old (especially an under-performing one) to the team...but a few thoughts on Lucic:
* The Penguins are desperately in need of some grit -- and grit that can legitimately play (unlike Reaves). Lucic could easily step into that much needed role.
* The Oilers are in bind with their cap and need to trim space wherever (and however) possible. This makes Lucic, especially given his play last year, a priority to move. But what team wants to pay $6M for 10 goals / 24 A? Edmonton knows they will have to do some work here -- especially given Lucic has FIVE more years on that contract!
* The Penguins, like every team, want to make a move to adjust their roster in order to better fill gaps. While Lucic **may** fill that grit gap -- we'd need to move someone out. Conor Sheary has been kicked around on this board a lot but he still scored 18 goals this season. The knock on Sheary is that he needs Crosby (or a great center) to play with -- Edmonton can fulfill that requirement.

So I'm looking at a deal of Sheary to Edmonton for Lucic and that 10th overall pick in this year's draft (maybe we can throw back a later one). We're taking on salary -- bloated, overpaid salary -- but a person who definitely fits a role of need on the team. Place him on the 3rd line, potentially elevate him from time to time if there is chemistry and look to use that 10th overall to add to the pipeline. In a couple years send Lucic and a 2nd round to Arizona to get him off the books when/if his value declines too much.

Would Edmonton go for it? They do need to do something.

He just had his worst season (production wise) in the NHL since his rookie season. He is not a great skater. He cost 6M and has 5 years (including this year) on his contract. He turns 31 in July. Playing a physical game like he does, his decline this year, his age......these scream all kinds of NO very, very loudly.

Even if EDM retained 50% as Jim said, I would rather role the dice on adding someone like Antoine Roussel or Chris Kunitz for a fraction of the Lucic cost. As a whole, this team need to get faster and younger, not older and slower. There is a strong need for a gritty player or two (with skill) in their lineup, but Lucic just isn't it for me.

Also, knowing that Edmonton's biggest issue is defense, and this draft is loaded with high-end defensemen, I have a hard time seeing them giving up #10 overall just to rid themselves of Lucic bad contract.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby dark_forces on Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:33 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
interstorm wrote:Read something today:

The Canadiens and Canucks reportedly tried to sign Lucic two years ago. Mathias Brunet of La Presse suggested the Canadiens propose taking the big winger off Edmonton's hands provided they agree to package him with their first-round pick (10th overall) in this year's draft. Staples, however, doesn't see the Oilers agreeing to that poison pill.


http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/news/nh ... i3bfv27w7u

Now I'll be the first to say I'm not looking to add another 30 year old (especially an under-performing one) to the team...but a few thoughts on Lucic:
* The Penguins are desperately in need of some grit -- and grit that can legitimately play (unlike Reaves). Lucic could easily step into that much needed role.
* The Oilers are in bind with their cap and need to trim space wherever (and however) possible. This makes Lucic, especially given his play last year, a priority to move. But what team wants to pay $6M for 10 goals / 24 A? Edmonton knows they will have to do some work here -- especially given Lucic has FIVE more years on that contract!
* The Penguins, like every team, want to make a move to adjust their roster in order to better fill gaps. While Lucic **may** fill that grit gap -- we'd need to move someone out. Conor Sheary has been kicked around on this board a lot but he still scored 18 goals this season. The knock on Sheary is that he needs Crosby (or a great center) to play with -- Edmonton can fulfill that requirement.

So I'm looking at a deal of Sheary to Edmonton for Lucic and that 10th overall pick in this year's draft (maybe we can throw back a later one). We're taking on salary -- bloated, overpaid salary -- but a person who definitely fits a role of need on the team. Place him on the 3rd line, potentially elevate him from time to time if there is chemistry and look to use that 10th overall to add to the pipeline. In a couple years send Lucic and a 2nd round to Arizona to get him off the books when/if his value declines too much.

Would Edmonton go for it? They do need to do something.

He just had his worst season (production wise) in the NHL since his rookie season. He is not a great skater. He cost 6M and has 5 years (including this year) on his contract. He turns 31 in July. Playing a physical game like he does, his decline this year, his age......these scream all kinds of NO very, very loudly.

Even if EDM retained 50% as Jim said, I would rather role the dice on adding someone like Antoine Roussel or Chris Kunitz for a fraction of the Lucic cost. As a whole, this team need to get faster and younger, not older and slower. There is a strong need for a gritty player or two (with skill) in their lineup, but Lucic just isn't it for me.

Also, knowing that Edmonton's biggest issue is defense, and this draft is loaded with high-end defensemen, I have a hard time seeing them giving up #10 overall just to rid themselves of Lucic bad contract.

FLPensFan is quickly becoming my favorite poster. The goal should most always be to get younger, faster, cheaper. Lucic is none of those things and will only go downhill from there. Pass. Edmonton was foolish to dole out such a big contract fro him in the first place. If I'm edmonton, Chiarelli would be on a very short rope.
Here's a question for everyone: who's the best GM out there without a job and who's the best coach out there without a job?
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:23 pm

dark_forces wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
interstorm wrote:Read something today:

The Canadiens and Canucks reportedly tried to sign Lucic two years ago. Mathias Brunet of La Presse suggested the Canadiens propose taking the big winger off Edmonton's hands provided they agree to package him with their first-round pick (10th overall) in this year's draft. Staples, however, doesn't see the Oilers agreeing to that poison pill.


http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/news/nh ... i3bfv27w7u

Now I'll be the first to say I'm not looking to add another 30 year old (especially an under-performing one) to the team...but a few thoughts on Lucic:
* The Penguins are desperately in need of some grit -- and grit that can legitimately play (unlike Reaves). Lucic could easily step into that much needed role.
* The Oilers are in bind with their cap and need to trim space wherever (and however) possible. This makes Lucic, especially given his play last year, a priority to move. But what team wants to pay $6M for 10 goals / 24 A? Edmonton knows they will have to do some work here -- especially given Lucic has FIVE more years on that contract!
* The Penguins, like every team, want to make a move to adjust their roster in order to better fill gaps. While Lucic **may** fill that grit gap -- we'd need to move someone out. Conor Sheary has been kicked around on this board a lot but he still scored 18 goals this season. The knock on Sheary is that he needs Crosby (or a great center) to play with -- Edmonton can fulfill that requirement.

So I'm looking at a deal of Sheary to Edmonton for Lucic and that 10th overall pick in this year's draft (maybe we can throw back a later one). We're taking on salary -- bloated, overpaid salary -- but a person who definitely fits a role of need on the team. Place him on the 3rd line, potentially elevate him from time to time if there is chemistry and look to use that 10th overall to add to the pipeline. In a couple years send Lucic and a 2nd round to Arizona to get him off the books when/if his value declines too much.

Would Edmonton go for it? They do need to do something.

He just had his worst season (production wise) in the NHL since his rookie season. He is not a great skater. He cost 6M and has 5 years (including this year) on his contract. He turns 31 in July. Playing a physical game like he does, his decline this year, his age......these scream all kinds of NO very, very loudly.

Even if EDM retained 50% as Jim said, I would rather role the dice on adding someone like Antoine Roussel or Chris Kunitz for a fraction of the Lucic cost. As a whole, this team need to get faster and younger, not older and slower. There is a strong need for a gritty player or two (with skill) in their lineup, but Lucic just isn't it for me.

Also, knowing that Edmonton's biggest issue is defense, and this draft is loaded with high-end defensemen, I have a hard time seeing them giving up #10 overall just to rid themselves of Lucic bad contract.

FLPensFan is quickly becoming my favorite poster. The goal should most always be to get younger, faster, cheaper. Lucic is none of those things and will only go downhill from there. Pass. Edmonton was foolish to dole out such a big contract fro him in the first place. If I'm edmonton, Chiarelli would be on a very short rope.
Here's a question for everyone: who's the best GM out there without a job and who's the best coach out there without a job?

Thanks dark_forces. I am a Penguins fan, but I also like to think I have a fairly strong ability to step back and look at the bigger picture and eliminate Penguins specific bias. This is a copycat league. Teams saw the Penguins winning 2 Cups with speed, and started to copy that. Toronto, New Jersey, Tampa, and several others got significantly faster this year. As someone else mentioned, the Penguins didn't get the youth infusion that they did during the two Cup seasons where season 1 saw Kuhnhackl, Wilson, Rust, and Sheary emerge, and last year you had Guentzel and Rowney stepping up, along with Rust and Sheary continuing to provide that spark. This year, they didn't use Sprong down the stretch, ZAR was injured late in the season and in the Caps series, Simon had one small 6 game run which overestimated his effectiveness, and guys like Kuhnhackl, Sheary, and Rust were largely ineffective. I'm not always a big fan of just "return the same team" and the Cup magic will return either. Sure, we won with Tommy Kuhnhackl on the 4th line, but, his numbers have trended down every year. I think the Penguins could find a better 12th forward who can not only PK and provide strong defense, but also better secondary scoring. I think there are several areas like this on the team. I don't want to see everything blown up, but if the Penguins got to the point where Hagelin-Sheahan-Rust was their FOURTH LINE, they'd have some tremendous depth. I do think it is possible.

In terms of GM, that is kind of difficult. I think a lot of GMs out there (ahem, Garth Snow) are simply getting by on some past performance or something unknown. I think a good 5 or 6 GMs out there should lose their jobs and better people can be brought in. It's hard to really keep tabs on who all the up and comers are around the league, or to just recycle someone's name that has been out there.

Coaching, on the other hand......I was a big fan of what Dave Tippett did in Dallas and early on in Arizona. This was his first year without an NHL coaching job since 2002-2003 season. I would like to think someone will be smart enough to hire him at the NHL level soon. Arizona had just extended him to a 5 year deal in 2016, and then he was out a year later, which I think was more GM John Chayka's doing (which is funny because Tippett was a big fan of bringing Chayka in as GM).
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby dark_forces on Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:36 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
dark_forces wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
interstorm wrote:Read something today:

The Canadiens and Canucks reportedly tried to sign Lucic two years ago. Mathias Brunet of La Presse suggested the Canadiens propose taking the big winger off Edmonton's hands provided they agree to package him with their first-round pick (10th overall) in this year's draft. Staples, however, doesn't see the Oilers agreeing to that poison pill.


http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/news/nh ... i3bfv27w7u

Now I'll be the first to say I'm not looking to add another 30 year old (especially an under-performing one) to the team...but a few thoughts on Lucic:
* The Penguins are desperately in need of some grit -- and grit that can legitimately play (unlike Reaves). Lucic could easily step into that much needed role.
* The Oilers are in bind with their cap and need to trim space wherever (and however) possible. This makes Lucic, especially given his play last year, a priority to move. But what team wants to pay $6M for 10 goals / 24 A? Edmonton knows they will have to do some work here -- especially given Lucic has FIVE more years on that contract!
* The Penguins, like every team, want to make a move to adjust their roster in order to better fill gaps. While Lucic **may** fill that grit gap -- we'd need to move someone out. Conor Sheary has been kicked around on this board a lot but he still scored 18 goals this season. The knock on Sheary is that he needs Crosby (or a great center) to play with -- Edmonton can fulfill that requirement.

So I'm looking at a deal of Sheary to Edmonton for Lucic and that 10th overall pick in this year's draft (maybe we can throw back a later one). We're taking on salary -- bloated, overpaid salary -- but a person who definitely fits a role of need on the team. Place him on the 3rd line, potentially elevate him from time to time if there is chemistry and look to use that 10th overall to add to the pipeline. In a couple years send Lucic and a 2nd round to Arizona to get him off the books when/if his value declines too much.

Would Edmonton go for it? They do need to do something.

He just had his worst season (production wise) in the NHL since his rookie season. He is not a great skater. He cost 6M and has 5 years (including this year) on his contract. He turns 31 in July. Playing a physical game like he does, his decline this year, his age......these scream all kinds of NO very, very loudly.

Even if EDM retained 50% as Jim said, I would rather role the dice on adding someone like Antoine Roussel or Chris Kunitz for a fraction of the Lucic cost. As a whole, this team need to get faster and younger, not older and slower. There is a strong need for a gritty player or two (with skill) in their lineup, but Lucic just isn't it for me.

Also, knowing that Edmonton's biggest issue is defense, and this draft is loaded with high-end defensemen, I have a hard time seeing them giving up #10 overall just to rid themselves of Lucic bad contract.

FLPensFan is quickly becoming my favorite poster. The goal should most always be to get younger, faster, cheaper. Lucic is none of those things and will only go downhill from there. Pass. Edmonton was foolish to dole out such a big contract fro him in the first place. If I'm edmonton, Chiarelli would be on a very short rope.
Here's a question for everyone: who's the best GM out there without a job and who's the best coach out there without a job?

Thanks dark_forces. I am a Penguins fan, but I also like to think I have a fairly strong ability to step back and look at the bigger picture and eliminate Penguins specific bias. This is a copycat league. Teams saw the Penguins winning 2 Cups with speed, and started to copy that. Toronto, New Jersey, Tampa, and several others got significantly faster this year. As someone else mentioned, the Penguins didn't get the youth infusion that they did during the two Cup seasons where season 1 saw Kuhnhackl, Wilson, Rust, and Sheary emerge, and last year you had Guentzel and Rowney stepping up, along with Rust and Sheary continuing to provide that spark. This year, they didn't use Sprong down the stretch, ZAR was injured late in the season and in the Caps series, Simon had one small 6 game run which overestimated his effectiveness, and guys like Kuhnhackl, Sheary, and Rust were largely ineffective. I'm not always a big fan of just "return the same team" and the Cup magic will return either. Sure, we won with Tommy Kuhnhackl on the 4th line, but, his numbers have trended down every year. I think the Penguins could find a better 12th forward who can not only PK and provide strong defense, but also better secondary scoring. I think there are several areas like this on the team. I don't want to see everything blown up, but if the Penguins got to the point where Hagelin-Sheahan-Rust was their FOURTH LINE, they'd have some tremendous depth. I do think it is possible.

In terms of GM, that is kind of difficult. I think a lot of GMs out there (ahem, Garth Snow) are simply getting by on some past performance or something unknown. I think a good 5 or 6 GMs out there should lose their jobs and better people can be brought in. It's hard to really keep tabs on who all the up and comers are around the league, or to just recycle someone's name that has been out there.

Coaching, on the other hand......I was a big fan of what Dave Tippett did in Dallas and early on in Arizona. This was his first year without an NHL coaching job since 2002-2003 season. I would like to think someone will be smart enough to hire him at the NHL level soon. Arizona had just extended him to a 5 year deal in 2016, and then he was out a year later, which I think was more GM John Chayka's doing (which is funny because Tippett was a big fan of bringing Chayka in as GM).


I agree about Tippett. I'm shocked another team hasn't picked him up. As far as GM, I go D. Lombardi.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby murphydump55 on Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:47 pm

Lombardi? The guy that put together that awful US team? The one that still believes that heavy, slow, grinding teams win?

Other teams can have him. I want more youth injected into front offices. Chayka, Epstein, etc. Guys like that that.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby LimerickPensFan on Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:52 pm

I'm interested to see what Guerin can do.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:54 pm

dark_forces wrote:I agree about Tippett. I'm shocked another team hasn't picked him up. As far as GM, I go D. Lombardi.


My general attitude on coaches and GMs is to avoid retreads, for the most part. For GM, I would look at guys like Guerin or a Tom Fitzgerald or another assistant GM. See what AHL teams are successful both in wins/playoffs but also feeding to the NHL. Maybe that GM would be ready for NHL.

I just don't like the idea of recycling the same 31-35 GMs and coaches like musical chairs.

Mike Sullivan is a perfect example. Cup of coffee as an NHL coach, learned in Chicago and WBS, 3 years in and barely 50.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby interstorm on Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:06 pm

dark_forces wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
interstorm wrote:Read something today:

The Canadiens and Canucks reportedly tried to sign Lucic two years ago. Mathias Brunet of La Presse suggested the Canadiens propose taking the big winger off Edmonton's hands provided they agree to package him with their first-round pick (10th overall) in this year's draft. Staples, however, doesn't see the Oilers agreeing to that poison pill.


http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/news/nh ... i3bfv27w7u

Now I'll be the first to say I'm not looking to add another 30 year old (especially an under-performing one) to the team...but a few thoughts on Lucic:
* The Penguins are desperately in need of some grit -- and grit that can legitimately play (unlike Reaves). Lucic could easily step into that much needed role.
* The Oilers are in bind with their cap and need to trim space wherever (and however) possible. This makes Lucic, especially given his play last year, a priority to move. But what team wants to pay $6M for 10 goals / 24 A? Edmonton knows they will have to do some work here -- especially given Lucic has FIVE more years on that contract!
* The Penguins, like every team, want to make a move to adjust their roster in order to better fill gaps. While Lucic **may** fill that grit gap -- we'd need to move someone out. Conor Sheary has been kicked around on this board a lot but he still scored 18 goals this season. The knock on Sheary is that he needs Crosby (or a great center) to play with -- Edmonton can fulfill that requirement.

So I'm looking at a deal of Sheary to Edmonton for Lucic and that 10th overall pick in this year's draft (maybe we can throw back a later one). We're taking on salary -- bloated, overpaid salary -- but a person who definitely fits a role of need on the team. Place him on the 3rd line, potentially elevate him from time to time if there is chemistry and look to use that 10th overall to add to the pipeline. In a couple years send Lucic and a 2nd round to Arizona to get him off the books when/if his value declines too much.

Would Edmonton go for it? They do need to do something.

He just had his worst season (production wise) in the NHL since his rookie season. He is not a great skater. He cost 6M and has 5 years (including this year) on his contract. He turns 31 in July. Playing a physical game like he does, his decline this year, his age......these scream all kinds of NO very, very loudly.

Even if EDM retained 50% as Jim said, I would rather role the dice on adding someone like Antoine Roussel or Chris Kunitz for a fraction of the Lucic cost. As a whole, this team need to get faster and younger, not older and slower. There is a strong need for a gritty player or two (with skill) in their lineup, but Lucic just isn't it for me.

Also, knowing that Edmonton's biggest issue is defense, and this draft is loaded with high-end defensemen, I have a hard time seeing them giving up #10 overall just to rid themselves of Lucic bad contract.

FLPensFan is quickly becoming my favorite poster. The goal should most always be to get younger, faster, cheaper. Lucic is none of those things and will only go downhill from there. Pass. Edmonton was foolish to dole out such a big contract fro him in the first place. If I'm edmonton, Chiarelli would be on a very short rope.
Here's a question for everyone: who's the best GM out there without a job and who's the best coach out there without a job?


I'm not certain Lucic is washed up. By all accounts he and his wife absolutely hate the Edmonton area and that franchise has been known to suck the life out of people in the past. Of course any deal would be contingent on getting a sufficient return (that #10 pick -- some salary retained if possible -- moving Sheary). Lucic has been a healthy player over his career 80+ games in 6 of his last 7 years. If one believes he still has some game in him, he would be a perfect buy-low candidate while Edmonton is ripe for prying some other assets away because they are in a bad spot. While maybe not the Pens (maybe -- most likely not) -- I'd file this one away to see what happens this offseason.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:15 pm

interstorm wrote:I'm not certain Lucic is washed up. By all accounts he and his wife absolutely hate the Edmonton area and that franchise has been known to suck the life out of people in the past. Of course any deal would be contingent on getting a sufficient return (that #10 pick -- some salary retained if possible -- moving Sheary). Lucic has been a healthy player over his career 80+ games in 6 of his last 7 years. If one believes he still has some game in him, he would be a perfect buy-low candidate while Edmonton is ripe for prying some other assets away because they are in a bad spot. While maybe not the Pens (maybe -- most likely not) -- I'd file this one away to see what happens this offseason.


If that is the case, I still wouldn't want him. What if he doesn't like Pittsburgh? He signed a huge contract without doing enough research to know if he and his family would like that area? If that's true, that shows he chased the money and I wouldn't want someone like that.

Edmonton had some down years and I would get if he was down when the rest of the team was down but if he can't elevate his game with McDavid one has to wonder if he actually can elevate his game.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby interstorm on Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:06 pm

Lucic is far from the first person to complain about that area - Chris Pronger helped them get to the finals then needed to get out of there. Should the Ducks have not pursued him because of that? How did that work out for them? How about Taylor Hall who had a great season drastically increasing his goals on his first season away from that abysmal franchise? He's young but not so young that it should have taken him this long to blossom. How about Schultz - the list goes on and on.

Hey - is he a perfect aquisition target. No. Could he be a Wayne Simmonds type player for the Pens (about the same age and aside from last season, Lucic has had more points while bringing just as much - if not more - physicality). Is he a bit of a gamble? Yes. Are the Penguins in a position to gamble? Maybe (we can say we have a couple good years left with this core but don't look in the rear view mirror because the Flyers and their loads of great prospects are most definitely coming).

To me, I see in Edmonton a team that needs cap releif and one we could potentially work with to fill a void (gritty power forward who can play), move some salary (Sheary who can play himself but we have enough smaller guys) and get some high end youth (if we can get that #10, even if we need to trade pick back ourselves).
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby stonewizard51 on Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:17 pm

Daniel wrote:
interstorm wrote:Read something today:

The Canadiens and Canucks reportedly tried to sign Lucic two years ago. Mathias Brunet of La Presse suggested the Canadiens propose taking the big winger off Edmonton's hands provided they agree to package him with their first-round pick (10th overall) in this year's draft. Staples, however, doesn't see the Oilers agreeing to that poison pill.


http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/news/nh ... i3bfv27w7u

Now I'll be the first to say I'm not looking to add another 30 year old (especially an under-performing one) to the team...but a few thoughts on Lucic:
* The Penguins are desperately in need of some grit -- and grit that can legitimately play (unlike Reaves). Lucic could easily step into that much needed role.
* The Oilers are in bind with their cap and need to trim space wherever (and however) possible. This makes Lucic, especially given his play last year, a priority to move. But what team wants to pay $6M for 10 goals / 24 A? Edmonton knows they will have to do some work here -- especially given Lucic has FIVE more years on that contract!
* The Penguins, like every team, want to make a move to adjust their roster in order to better fill gaps. While Lucic **may** fill that grit gap -- we'd need to move someone out. Conor Sheary has been kicked around on this board a lot but he still scored 18 goals this season. The knock on Sheary is that he needs Crosby (or a great center) to play with -- Edmonton can fulfill that requirement.

So I'm looking at a deal of Sheary to Edmonton for Lucic and that 10th overall pick in this year's draft (maybe we can throw back a later one). We're taking on salary -- bloated, overpaid salary -- but a person who definitely fits a role of need on the team. Place him on the 3rd line, potentially elevate him from time to time if there is chemistry and look to use that 10th overall to add to the pipeline. In a couple years send Lucic and a 2nd round to Arizona to get him off the books when/if his value declines too much.

Would Edmonton go for it? They do need to do something.


Would the Penguins go for it? Is that 10th overall pick worth such a lousy contract for a 4th liner (at this stage of his career)?

I really hope not.

I've never been a Lucic fan and now, even with a 50% retention of salary, I'm definitely not. Lucic would be a huge gamble at this point. Taylor Hall and Schultz were mentioned above. They're also younger and have skills that needed a place to grow. Lucic is nowhere close to those two in that area or level.

FWIW I hope to never see Lucic in a Pens sweater.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:33 pm

interstorm wrote:Lucic is far from the first person to complain about that area - Chris Pronger helped them get to the finals then needed to get out of there. Should the Ducks have not pursued him because of that? How did that work out for them? How about Taylor Hall who had a great season drastically increasing his goals on his first season away from that abysmal franchise? He's young but not so young that it should have taken him this long to blossom. How about Schultz - the list goes on and on.


So Edmonton has this kind of reputation and has for years? Lucic ignored, or didn't research, and still went and that somehow invalidates what I said? I think that's a horrible contract, someone who's skills are declining and no way would he fit what the Pens are trying to do. He's a gamble for sure, but one I wouldn't take. Not with that contract.

As for Schultz, he was way younger, cheaper contract, less of a risk. Did Pronger let Edmonton get to him to the point of degrading his stats to the point Lucic has? I don't remember him letting Edmonton affect his play.

Point with Lucic is that if the reason his skill has degraded is because of Edmonton, I don't want him. If his skills degraded because he's 31, I don't want him. As a matter of fact, that contract is horrible and it would take a lot more than he's shown to even want to take the gamble.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:32 pm

Daniel wrote:
interstorm wrote:I'm not certain Lucic is washed up. By all accounts he and his wife absolutely hate the Edmonton area and that franchise has been known to suck the life out of people in the past. Of course any deal would be contingent on getting a sufficient return (that #10 pick -- some salary retained if possible -- moving Sheary). Lucic has been a healthy player over his career 80+ games in 6 of his last 7 years. If one believes he still has some game in him, he would be a perfect buy-low candidate while Edmonton is ripe for prying some other assets away because they are in a bad spot. While maybe not the Pens (maybe -- most likely not) -- I'd file this one away to see what happens this offseason.


If that is the case, I still wouldn't want him. What if he doesn't like Pittsburgh? He signed a huge contract without doing enough research to know if he and his family would like that area? If that's true, that shows he chased the money and I wouldn't want someone like that.

Edmonton had some down years and I would get if he was down when the rest of the team was down but if he can't elevate his game with McDavid one has to wonder if he actually can elevate his game.

It's not that I think he is washed up. There are just too many red flags on him that make me think acquiring him in any form is probably more risk than possible reward. There are likely better ways to spend the assets and the money that would be needed to acquire Lucic.

A #10 draft pick, in this year's draft, likely isn't going to help the team in the next 2-3 years. If the Penguins were going to move up to #10, they are almost certainly going to take a defenseman. This draft is very defense heavy. You've got Dahlin, Hughes, Dobson, Bouchard, Boqvist likely going in the top 10, with Svechnikov, Tkachuk, Zadina, Wahlstrom and Kotkaniemi likely being the forwards taken in the top 10. Dahlin and Svechnikov are pretty much guaranteed to go 1-2, and Tkachuk and Zadina are expected to be top 5 picks as well. Other than Dahlin on defense, I'm not sure any of the other guys could step in right away.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:57 pm

FLPensFan wrote:It's not that I think he is washed up. There are just too many red flags on him that make me think acquiring him in any form is probably more risk than possible reward. There are likely better ways to spend the assets and the money that would be needed to acquire Lucic.


I kinda think he is to be honest with you. He's getting the ice time but not producing with Edmonton and, other than his contract year, his numbers are trending downward.

Not counting 2012, his points have gone from 62,61,59,44 then up to 55 in a contract year, then 50,34. He barely misses games but sheesh, that contract.

He doesn't add speed or youth and will end up being a $6m 4th liner by the time that contract is up.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Hatrick on Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:26 pm

Daniel wrote:
Hatrick wrote:if you want the highest long term value yeah you probably trade him within the next year or two. If you can do that while making the team equally as good or even better right now I am fine with that. If you are making the team worse solely to avoid being a lottery team in 6 years I am not ok with that. That's the line GMJR has to walk when listening to offers and why the concept of taking calls but not shopping is necessary, if the right offer comes along almost anybody is expendable but that offer would have to be better than what some people are suggesting the pens get in return.


Oh, I agree. My thought process is this, retool on the fly by trading a Kessel, Hagelin, Sheary for guys that can step in AS well as guys that can step in after a year at WBS.

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/penguins

Kessel, Hagelin, Sheary - about $14mil in cap space

Remove them and the lineup becomes (who cares what order, you get the depth chart):

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
XXX-Malkin-Sprong
ZAR-Brassard-XXX
Kuhnhackl-Sheahan-Rust

I think the minimum for Kessel should be an under 25 guy who has a bit of experience and has produced and a steady defensive defensemen. Just to bring up a trade scenario, let's say Brendan Perlini and Dysin Mayo for Kessel. Not that Arizona would do this, but that's what I kind of scenario I'm talking about. Maybe AZ looks at it because of his 92 point season, maybe not. If the trade for Kessel is Max Domi and a 3rd, I'd say no thanks and move on.

The Pens don't need to trade him now, but I'd rather not wait until they have to because his skills are diminished. Bottom line, I don't want to see this:


Malkin, Evgeni 31
Crosby, Sidney 30
Kessel, Phil 30
Hörnqvist, Patric 31
Hagelin, Carl 29
Brassard, Derick 30

Turn into this:

Malkin, Evgeni 36
Crosby, Sidney 35
Kessel, Phil 35
Hörnqvist, Patric 36
Hagelin, Carl 34
Brassard, Derick 35

This is the last year on the current contracts for hagelin and brassard. So either neither one would be with the team after this year OR they would be with the team at a cheaper contract so even if they age they aren't a cap liability. That leaves you with malkin, Crosby, kessel, letang, hornqvist being the only old guys making anything significant after this year(without taking returns from trades and possible free agent signings into consideration)
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Hatrick on Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:42 pm

interstorm wrote:Lucic is far from the first person to complain about that area - Chris Pronger helped them get to the finals then needed to get out of there. Should the Ducks have not pursued him because of that? How did that work out for them? How about Taylor Hall who had a great season drastically increasing his goals on his first season away from that abysmal franchise? He's young but not so young that it should have taken him this long to blossom. How about Schultz - the list goes on and on.

Hey - is he a perfect aquisition target. No. Could he be a Wayne Simmonds type player for the Pens (about the same age and aside from last season, Lucic has had more points while bringing just as much - if not more - physicality). Is he a bit of a gamble? Yes. Are the Penguins in a position to gamble? Maybe (we can say we have a couple good years left with this core but don't look in the rear view mirror because the Flyers and their loads of great prospects are most definitely coming).

To me, I see in Edmonton a team that needs cap releif and one we could potentially work with to fill a void (gritty power forward who can play), move some salary (Sheary who can play himself but we have enough smaller guys) and get some high end youth (if we can get that #10, even if we need to trade pick back ourselves).

I put together a deal on capfriendly several days ago because somebody had brought up lucic. The few comments were that it didn't help Edmonton so they would not consider the deal.
If the pens would trade for lucic it only makes sense if Edmonton retains 50% and take the deal from there.

Lucic @ 50% plus a pick for sheary
would be a wash salary wise and I would think the deal would benefit both sides, Edmonton unloads part of the worst contract in the league, pick up a guy who has shown good ability with star players(if sheary needs a guy like Crosby, Edmonton has the next closest thing). Pittsburgh gets a more gritty guy who is a better fit for a 4th line than sheary as well as the draft pick.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby interstorm on Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:07 pm

Like I said - Lucic is by no means a perfect acquisition but at the right price, for the right package, he fills a desperate need. I think if Wayne Simmonds was suddenly available everyone (myself included) would jump at the chance for him. The difference between these 2 is the salary and Milan's poorer year last year (with less ice time) but that **might** be attributed to his surroundings. Anyway...will be watching where he goes (because I think he's going) and how he performs. For a "win now" team if salary could be retained I'd love to have him (truthfully too if Edmonton retained 50% and took Sheary I wouldn't expect that #10. I think we could offload him later as well if needed to a team with cap space).
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby ville5 on Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:09 pm

Thing is, the Pens would need 50% retention on Lucic. If Chia decides to sell, he'll find someone dumb to take less than 50% retention. I personally don't think he's the right fit.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:18 pm

interstorm wrote:Like I said - Lucic is by no means a perfect acquisition but at the right price, for the right package, he fills a desperate need. I think if Wayne Simmonds was suddenly available everyone (myself included) would jump at the chance for him. The difference between these 2 is the salary and Milan's poorer year last year (with less ice time) but that **might** be attributed to his surroundings. Anyway...will be watching where he goes (because I think he's going) and how he performs. For a "win now" team if salary could be retained I'd love to have him (truthfully too if Edmonton retained 50% and took Sheary I wouldn't expect that #10. I think we could offload him later as well if needed to a team with cap space).


If he got out of Edmonton, would he get younger and faster? The two things the Penguins need.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby interstorm on Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:32 pm

Daniel wrote:
If he got out of Edmonton, would he get younger and faster? The two things the Penguins need.


Should we trade Crosby? He's going to be a year older by the time the next season rolls around? Ovie just won MVP and is even older than Sid. Yes speed is important but one player doesn't ruin it. Age is important but so are other attributes we desperately need. Point me to the available 24 year old power forward who skates like the wind, has great hands and has multiple 30 goal seasons under his belt. That guy isn't out there. I believe it is just as important to get more physical players (who can play and take real shifts) as it is to up the team speed. Not every guy needs to fit the same role either and with Lucic...that's the type of player the Penguins haven't had in a long, long time (even though he is most likely past his prime)
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:47 pm

interstorm wrote:
Daniel wrote:
If he got out of Edmonton, would he get younger and faster? The two things the Penguins need.


Should we trade Crosby? He's going to be a year older by the time the next season rolls around? Ovie just won MVP and is even older than Sid. Yes speed is important but one player doesn't ruin it. Age is important but so are other attributes we desperately need. Point me to the available 24 year old power forward who skates like the wind, has great hands and has multiple 30 goal seasons under his belt. That guy isn't out there. I believe it is just as important to get more physical players (who can play and take real shifts) as it is to up the team speed. Not every guy needs to fit the same role either and with Lucic...that's the type of player the Penguins haven't had in a long, long time (even though he is most likely past his prime)


You're right, one player isn't going to ruin it, and if the Pens had a younger team, I might have a different opinion.

Last season, the Penguins had one of the oldest teams in the league. You can have an Ovie, a Sid, Malkin, etc. What you can't have is a bunch of guys in their mid 30s with huge contracts which is what will happen with Lucic.

Do you really want to see the Penguins with 6 guys over 35 coming to the end of their contracts? In 2021-22, the Pens would have about $43m tied up to 6 players aged 35 or so. That screams mediocrity for a lot of years and getting Lucic won't make the team better, just older and slower. He's a declining asset and I don't think a change of scenery will fix that.

As for young power forward with speed? Who was that player the last three seasons?

btw, nice discussion, but I don't think we'll change each others minds. ;)
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