If the Pens had kept Fleury...

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If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby Malkintent on Mon May 07, 2018 10:59 pm

I know the Pens needed the cap space but what if they had traded Murray and kept Fleury? Could they have still resigned all their RFAs? What could they have gotten for Murray? How might the team have been different?
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby FLPensFan on Mon May 07, 2018 11:18 pm

I see the point as moot. There is no guarantee that on this team, with this defense, that Fleury would have had the same type of numbers and season that he did in Vegas.

Guys have down years. Look at Ovechkin in 10-11 through 12-13, after seasons of 50 plus and 60 plus goals, multiple 100 plus point seasons, he dips to a mid 30's goal scorer and a low of 65 points on the year. People were saying he was done. That's a big thing people seem to forget. Even elite level players can have down years. They don't get bounces. Systems change. Coaches change. Surrounding players change. Nagging injuries. All that comes into play.

This is the first time that Murray has had a sub-.910 save percentage in a regular season and post season. He had a tough year injury wise, and with the loss of his father. His top defenseman made a lot of bad plays in front of him this year. He fought the puck a lot. I think he'll bounce back next season.

But to answer your question specifically, yes, it could have worked. Trade Murray for a young stud defenseman and a pick, and don't sign Matt Hunwick. Salary just about works out at that point, 250K difference.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby Daniel on Mon May 07, 2018 11:35 pm

FLPensFan wrote:I see the point as moot. There is no guarantee that on this team, with this defense, that Fleury would have had the same type of numbers and season that he did in Vegas.

Guys have down years. Look at Ovechkin in 10-11 through 12-13, after seasons of 50 plus and 60 plus goals, multiple 100 plus point seasons, he dips to a mid 30's goal scorer and a low of 65 points on the year. People were saying he was done. That's a big thing people seem to forget. Even elite level players can have down years. They don't get bounces. Systems change. Coaches change. Surrounding players change. Nagging injuries. All that comes into play.

This is the first time that Murray has had a sub-.910 save percentage in a regular season and post season. He had a tough year injury wise, and with the loss of his father. His top defenseman made a lot of bad plays in front of him this year. He fought the puck a lot. I think he'll bounce back next season.

But to answer your question specifically, yes, it could have worked. Trade Murray for a young stud defenseman and a pick, and don't sign Matt Hunwick. Salary just about works out at that point, 250K difference.


The other question is, who does Vegas take? Rust, Hagelin, can't remember the other rumors, but you'd have to take that into consideration.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby pekkasteele on Tue May 08, 2018 1:16 am

Also, Flower might have gotten injured, or, if he stayed, might have had the same series against the Flyers as the one in .... 2011? or what year it was ....

Also, this would have been the last year of Horny.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby NJ5934 on Tue May 08, 2018 6:31 am

There's no point in debating this because at the time, there was no debate. It was the right move to make for every reason.

Murray could of been tighter but neither he or Brassard are the reason we're out
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby no name on Tue May 08, 2018 6:48 am

we saved 3.4 on the cap when we dealt Fleury. We would of lost Murray in the draft most likely. That 3.6 meant we could re-sign Sheary. Other wise we would of had to dealt salary to sign him.

Happy with how things played out. Our defense this season was weak, beside the sub par play of Murray our defense was not where it needed to be. I think losing Cole really hurt us.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby ville5 on Tue May 08, 2018 7:26 am

They made the right choice. Patrick Roy couldn't have saved this team. The team speed from the last 2 runs was near non existent. And they couldn't clear the zone to save their lives. Murray will bounce back. Though he needs to work on that glove hand or get the vision in his glove hand eye checked. The reflexes aren't the same glove side as other shots for him. As close as him and his father were, I'm surprised he was able to play at all. 23 is still pretty damn young. And I guarantee he was missing him and had trouble concentrating throughout his first playoff without him.
Also, I realize Brass is probably closer to a 2C than a 3C, but the bottom 6 scoring was pathetic. Sheahan and Kessel had a good thing going there.
I'm willing to give Brass the benefit of a full camp with the team. But he might be one of those guys that needs a bigger role to thrive.
Sheary needs to go though as do Letang (likely won't happen) and Roo.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby Southern Fan on Tue May 08, 2018 7:34 am

In the playoffs in 2011, 2012 and 2013 Fleury gave up more goals in his series loss than Murray did in this series.

Need a larger sample size

Question. Did they reduce the goalie equipment size this year ? Can’t remember. But always worried about Murray in that he didn’t have the Fleury quickness.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby Fat Old Frank on Tue May 08, 2018 7:43 am

They didn't. That's ancient history.

Please stop this.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby Badger Bob on Tue May 08, 2018 7:50 am

Is this really worth revisiting? Murray won two cups. He's younger and is less expensive. And who imagined that Fleury and the Knights would be this good before the season? It''s the path the Pens chose and I don't see any good in rehashing this decision and playing "What if".

I also don't think Murray was completely himself after he came back from the concussion.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby Big Easy Pens Fan on Fri May 11, 2018 7:28 am

no name wrote:we saved 3.4 on the cap when we dealt Fleury. We would of lost Murray in the draft most likely. That 3.6 meant we could re-sign Sheary. Other wise we would of had to dealt salary to sign him.

Happy with how things played out. Our defense this season was weak, beside the sub par play of Murray our defense was not where it needed to be. I think losing Cole really hurt us.


Well, in reality we didn't lose Cole, we threw him away.

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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby no name on Fri May 11, 2018 7:37 am

Big Easy Pens Fan wrote:
no name wrote:we saved 3.4 on the cap when we dealt Fleury. We would of lost Murray in the draft most likely. That 3.6 meant we could re-sign Sheary. Other wise we would of had to dealt salary to sign him.

Happy with how things played out. Our defense this season was weak, beside the sub par play of Murray our defense was not where it needed to be. I think losing Cole really hurt us.


Well, in reality we didn't lose Cole, we threw him away.

BEPF


Can't argue that.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby penny lane on Fri May 11, 2018 7:42 am

Wait till Ryan Reaves plays in the SCF- :P :shock: 8-)
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby BurghThing on Fri May 11, 2018 8:13 am

penny lane wrote:Wait till Ryan Reaves plays in the SCF- :P :shock: 8-)


AND gets a ring
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby FLPensFan on Fri May 11, 2018 8:22 am

All I am focused on is Vegas beating Winnipeg (although I really like the Peg too), Washington beating Tampa (although, I think Tampa is the favorite), so that Vegas and Washington can meet in the final, with Vegas beating Washington......so I can be satisfied that Washington still lost to a bunch of ex-Penguins in Fleury, Neal, Perron, and Engelland.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby Fast B on Fri May 11, 2018 9:55 am

I don’t know if Fleury would have added any secondary scoring either.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby interstorm on Fri May 11, 2018 10:21 am

Fast B wrote:I don’t know if Fleury would have added any secondary scoring either.


If we're going to play woulda, coulda, shoulda I'm not focusing here -- I'm going back to the 2012 draft and telling Shero to listen to virtually everyone on this message board and draft Filip Forsberg.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby Faubert5 on Sat May 12, 2018 9:41 am

BurghThing wrote:
penny lane wrote:Wait till Ryan Reaves plays in the SCF- :P :shock: 8-)


AND gets a ring


AND knocks out Wilson - though I hope Wilson doesn't get there.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby Malkintent on Sat May 12, 2018 9:59 am

interstorm wrote:
Fast B wrote:I don’t know if Fleury would have added any secondary scoring either.


If we're going to play woulda, coulda, shoulda I'm not focusing here -- I'm going back to the 2012 draft and telling Shero to listen to virtually everyone on this message board and draft Filip Forsberg.

Ugh I tell myself this all the time. Shero really screwed us with his drafting.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby pens_CT on Sat May 12, 2018 10:34 am

Malkintent wrote:
interstorm wrote:
Fast B wrote:I don’t know if Fleury would have added any secondary scoring either.


If we're going to play woulda, coulda, shoulda I'm not focusing here -- I'm going back to the 2012 draft and telling Shero to listen to virtually everyone on this message board and draft Filip Forsberg.

Ugh I tell myself this all the time. Shero really screwed us with his drafting.


Shero didn't do well with his first round picks as Bennett, Morrow, Pouliot were busts. He did much better with the lower rounds picks such Guentzel, Murray, and Rust. Kind of a mixed bag of draft results in my opinion.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby theblackarts on Mon May 14, 2018 4:25 pm

Well, you'd have traded a back to back cup winning goalie, which would be weird... but you could have gotten a lot for him obviously. That being said, there's no way MAF is going to take a pay cut to re-sign, so that's a lot of $ to resign him, so perhaps you can't afford what you get back for Murray. Let's say there's no cap, you've traded away your goalie of the future for lets say a great defenseman, an ok 3rd liner, and a 1st round draft pick or something like that. I don't think it helps the pens to beat the caps or any other team really, we were clearly out of gas. Even if we had made it to the finals, we were clearly not playing at the level that we have been for the past two years.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby MSL2 on Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:24 pm

...we would have a goalie with worse stats in the Washington series than Murray? :P
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:30 pm

MSL2 wrote:...we would have a goalie with worse stats in the Washington series than Murray? :P


Murray has a weaker glove though......
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby IntangibleBeer on Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:55 pm

ville5 wrote:They made the right choice. Patrick Roy couldn't have saved this team. The team speed from the last 2 runs was near non existent. And they couldn't clear the zone to save their lives. Murray will bounce back. Though he needs to work on that glove hand or get the vision in his glove hand eye checked. The reflexes aren't the same glove side as other shots for him. As close as him and his father were, I'm surprised he was able to play at all. 23 is still pretty damn young. And I guarantee he was missing him and had trouble concentrating throughout his first playoff without him.
Also, I realize Brass is probably closer to a 2C than a 3C, but the bottom 6 scoring was pathetic. Sheahan and Kessel had a good thing going there.
I'm willing to give Brass the benefit of a full camp with the team. But he might be one of those guys that needs a bigger role to thrive.
Sheary needs to go though as do Letang (likely won't happen) and Roo.



I think this analysis is spot-on. This year's Pens team had defensive issues which were made worse by losing Ian Cole and keeping Letang. Clearing the zone was a huge problem and one that ultimately proved fatal in the playoffs.

Fleury had a great year and playoff run with Vegas. His play during the SCF wasn't as good as the prior 3 series, but the Golden Knights had blown coverages, turnovers in their zone, and almost no scoring from anything other than the 4th line. Prior to Game 5, Gallant made the point that his team's problems weren't because of Fleury and I agree.
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Re: If the Pens had kept Fleury...

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:05 pm

FYI.....just something come across Twitter from Sportsnet Canada about Fleury saying he doesn't want to go anywhere else and wants to finish his career in Vegas. Sounds like he is loving it there.
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