Kessel trade thread

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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby thehockeyguru on Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:01 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:And that's really my point, if you prioritizing personality over performance as a franchise you are going to have problems in the long run.

There's a lot more at play though.

What is the deepest position on this team and at an organizational level? RW
What position does Kessel play? RW
What is the thinnest position on this team and at an organizational level? Defense You might be tempted to say center, which is a close 2nd, but at center we still have Blueger, Johnson, DiPauli, and Bellerive.
What position does Letang play? Defense
It's hard to argue that Kessel has gotten along well with every coach/GM he's played for. It's quite the opposite.

I know a lot of people are on Sullivan to bite his pride and make it work, but again, I don't know to what level Phil has complained about not playing with Geno, but when things are written (not saying they are true) to the effect that Kessel believes the team is better with him and Geno together, and the coach believes Phil and Geno apart is best for the team, that's a problem. The coach makes the lineup cards and determines his strategy, not the players. I've heard that Sid has complained this year about his linemates.....they didn't change because he complained either.

I'm not married to either player, and for the right deal (ie, anything other than a pure salary dump), I'm not opposed with either of them being moved to better the team. Quite honestly, if I could move Kessel or Letang this year, and then other player next year, and the end result was picking up 3 or 4 young players that can help the team in the present and will help them field a solid team in future years, I'm all for it. Pittsburgh was the 7th oldest team in the league last year. You don't need to be old to be good. Colorado and Columbus were the 2 youngest teams in the league.....both made the playoffs. Philly 6th youngest. NJ 8th youngest. 10th - 12th youngest....Winnipeg, Vegas,and Boston. Only 4 teams were older than the Penguins that made the playoffs....LA, SJ, ANA, and MIN. This team can be strong competitors and still get younger in the process....I think they are going to have to in order to compete with the speed of the league.



I get what you are saying, but what happens to that RW depth once you get rid of Kessel?

You have Sprong, who has talent but has only played a handful of NHL games. Sullivan has also shown that he is very unwilling to play Sprong.

You then have Rust who is a bottom 6 guy who can move up in a pinch and Tom Kuhnhackl who hasn't shown any offensive upside and likely will be replaced this offseason.

I said it earlier that I'd look to move Letang first for basically anything I can get along with the cap relief. If someone overpaid for Kessel you cant refuse that. Like you said, if someone offer Ellis and Turris for Kessel and Hunwick. I'd accept and figure the rest out from there.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby Hatrick on Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:31 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
KG wrote:I would much rather keep Kessel over Letang if that’s an option. Letang doesn’t even play on the top power play anymore and he’s far from a defensive stalwart. I would move him over Kessel.

Letang would garner much trade interest. Teams fall over themselves for d men.


I honestly have no idea what the market would be for Letang if we has actively shopped. I really think the Pens put his name out there in December and there just wasnt any interest.

If I were to guess the Pens would have to eat salary to get rid of him his value is that low.

If they didn't have to give up real assets other than taking the contract I would guess that at minimum a dozen teams would instantly do that deal before they got disconnected.

While I think kessel has more value than letang(much much better performance this past season plus a slightly cheaper contract) if either one were to be traded the pens should not have to eat any salary whatsoever unless they did so in order to get even more in return.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby no name on Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:20 am

Heard talk of a few years ago from a past GM on that radio simulcast (McClain??) in NHL network. Said the ideal situation is to wait until free agency, sign the players you want or can since you can go over the cap. Then trade the players you ned to get back under the cap. But once other GMs knew you were over the cap and you hade to trade players the return was a lot lower. And if you made a trade before the free agency started you might get rid of a player and if you couldn't sign a free agent you need then you were screwed. Kinda that damned if you do damned if you don't.


KInda like ok we trade Letang before free agency (high value) for something of value, thinking you will sign Carlson to fill the void. Carlson doesn't sign so now your totally out of a high end Dman.

Do it after the free agency, sign Carlson, so you are over the cap, teams know you have to trade Letang and give you low ball offers.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby FLPensFan on Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:31 am

no name wrote:Heard talk of a few years ago from a past GM on that radio simulcast (McClain??) in NHL network. Said the ideal situation is to wait until free agency, sign the players you want or can since you can go over the cap. Then trade the players you ned to get back under the cap. But once other GMs knew you were over the cap and you hade to trade players the return was a lot lower. And if you made a trade before the free agency started you might get rid of a player and if you couldn't sign a free agent you need then you were screwed. Kinda that damned if you do damned if you don't.


KInda like ok we trade Letang before free agency (high value) for something of value, thinking you will sign Carlson to fill the void. Carlson doesn't sign so now your totally out of a high end Dman.

Do it after the free agency, sign Carlson, so you are over the cap, teams know you have to trade Letang and give you low ball offers.

While you can't predict the UFA market response, I think a lot of GMs just agree to deals in principal, contingent on being able to do X. Such as, hey, we are going to trade you Letang for X, but that is contingent on us making another deal (say Sheary and Y for Z). If we can't pull off Sheary and Y for Z, which we have agreed to in principal, Letang for X is not going to happen.

You see very few deals where players get stuck with players they don't want because they couldn't pull off trades. You back out of something you agreed to, you likely aren't going to deal with that GM again, and word gets around the league.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby Daniel on Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:14 am

no name wrote:Heard talk of a few years ago from a past GM on that radio simulcast (McClain??) in NHL network. Said the ideal situation is to wait until free agency, sign the players you want or can since you can go over the cap. Then trade the players you ned to get back under the cap. But once other GMs knew you were over the cap and you hade to trade players the return was a lot lower. And if you made a trade before the free agency started you might get rid of a player and if you couldn't sign a free agent you need then you were screwed. Kinda that damned if you do damned if you don't.


KInda like ok we trade Letang before free agency (high value) for something of value, thinking you will sign Carlson to fill the void. Carlson doesn't sign so now your totally out of a high end Dman.

Do it after the free agency, sign Carlson, so you are over the cap, teams know you have to trade Letang and give you low ball offers.


Or you get Carlson to agree during the pre 7/1 window and trade Letang to a team that was trying to sign him?
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby no name on Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:23 am

This was a GM with past working experience about how the league works. I do remember a scenario where Ray Shero counted on resigning Hossa who ended up and went to Detroit. After that he ended up and had to sign scraps to fill out his roster.

Funny how karma came to the rescue that year.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby FLPensFan on Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:27 am

no name wrote:This was a GM with past working experience about how the league works. I do remember a scenario where Ray Shero counted on resigning Hossa who ended up and went to Detroit. After that he ended up and had to sign scraps to fill out his roster.

Funny how karma came to the rescue that year.

Yeah, I understand. I was talking more about trades. Free agency adds a bit of a different wrinkle.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby Malkintent on Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:37 pm

I remember talking heads saying that a big reason why the Pens beat the Craps in 2016 was bc Carlson wasn't in Letang's league. Did 74 really become so much better than 58 since then?
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby pens_CT on Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:53 pm

Malkintent wrote:I remember talking heads saying that a big reason why the Pens beat the Craps in 2016 was bc Carlson wasn't in Letang's league. Did 74 really become so much better than 58 since then?


Letang's game has regressed so by definition Carlson looks better.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby Malkintent on Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:02 pm

It's only been one truly bad year so I'm willing to give Letang the benefit of the doubt but I'm not so confident the Pens would be better without him. Sure if you know you can replace him with another legit #1 that's great but the way the team played in 2017 is not a recipe for success.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby ville5 on Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:57 pm

Posted by Pittsburghhockeynow.com
Bob McKenzie says Pittsburgh media is correct that Kessel is available but won't be traded unless GMJR gets his price. They took the quote from the weekly Bobcast-
On his bi-weekly podcast, TSN Insider Bob McKenzie dove straight into the Phil Kessel trade situation.

McKenzie acknowledged Pittsburgh Penguins general manager Jim Rutherford’s effort to “calm the waters” regarding the speculation and discussions regarding Kessel, but also suggested reports in “Pittsburgh media, quite correctly, that Kessel is eminently available.” Though McKenzie also acknowledged a deal isn’t assured unless the Penguins get “the right price.”
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby LimerickPensFan on Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:18 pm

ville5 wrote:Posted by Pittsburghhockeynow.com
Bob McKenzie says Pittsburgh media is correct that Kessel is available but won't be traded unless GMJR gets his price. They took the quote from the weekly Bobcast-
On his bi-weekly podcast, TSN Insider Bob McKenzie dove straight into the Phil Kessel trade situation.

McKenzie acknowledged Pittsburgh Penguins general manager Jim Rutherford’s effort to “calm the waters” regarding the speculation and discussions regarding Kessel, but also suggested reports in “Pittsburgh media, quite correctly, that Kessel is eminently available.” Though McKenzie also acknowledged a deal isn’t assured unless the Penguins get “the right price.”

I would guess anyone not named Sid or Evgeni are eminently available for the right price. And I'm not even sure about Sid or Geno (it would have to be an incredibly large price, though.)

The thing is, GMJR is not actively shopping him.

I mean, if Edmonton came in and offered McDavid for Kessel (while keeping the salary), I think we'd go for it.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby Pitts on Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:43 pm

Malkintent wrote:I remember talking heads saying that a big reason why the Pens beat the Craps in 2016 was bc Carlson wasn't in Letang's league. Did 74 really become so much better than 58 since then?

Is that really a question? Carlson is younger and healthier and has improved. Letang has spent the last few seasons dealing with one injury after another.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby dark_forces on Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:53 pm

Purely speculation here, but would we really lose anything if we shipped out Letang and somehow got Faulk from Carolina in return? These wouldn't be the only pieces (and it could even be a three team or entirely separate trade) but I'm thinking we get him and a solid #5 or #6 on the free agency market and our defense could be even better than this year's version and even better than the defense on the 2017 cup team.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby no name on Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:55 am

dark_forces wrote:Purely speculation here, but would we really lose anything if we shipped out Letang and somehow got Faulk from Carolina in return? These wouldn't be the only pieces (and it could even be a three team or entirely separate trade) but I'm thinking we get him and a solid #5 or #6 on the free agency market and our defense could be even better than this year's version and even better than the defense on the 2017 cup team.



subtract: Letang

Gain Faulk and sign Ian Cole

Yeah I think that makes our defense a bit better.

I think even Washington is proving having a solid D-corpse with a good 3rd pair, is just as good as having that one top heavy minute guy. Carlson is good but really a highend No. one guy. On the same token VGK got to the finals without a true No. 1 defenseman. They had 3 good pairs.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby interstorm on Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:04 am

This seems to make sense to me because more often goals are scored due to a mistake (by the defending team) rather than an incredible play (by the offensive team). Sure there are exceptions when a player does something that one shakes their head thinking, "how can you defend that" but those appear few and far between. A solid team that makes the fewest mistakes wins

(This is also the recipe for boring games as it rewards low-risk teams)
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby thehockeyguru on Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:21 am

no name wrote:
dark_forces wrote:Purely speculation here, but would we really lose anything if we shipped out Letang and somehow got Faulk from Carolina in return? These wouldn't be the only pieces (and it could even be a three team or entirely separate trade) but I'm thinking we get him and a solid #5 or #6 on the free agency market and our defense could be even better than this year's version and even better than the defense on the 2017 cup team.



subtract: Letang

Gain Faulk and sign Ian Cole

Yeah I think that makes our defense a bit better.

I think even Washington is proving having a solid D-corpse with a good 3rd pair, is just as good as having that one top heavy minute guy. Carlson is good but really a highend No. one guy. On the same token VGK got to the finals without a true No. 1 defenseman. They had 3 good pairs.


Of course it makes the D better but HCMS won't allow for a Cole return.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:23 am

no name wrote:
dark_forces wrote:Purely speculation here, but would we really lose anything if we shipped out Letang and somehow got Faulk from Carolina in return? These wouldn't be the only pieces (and it could even be a three team or entirely separate trade) but I'm thinking we get him and a solid #5 or #6 on the free agency market and our defense could be even better than this year's version and even better than the defense on the 2017 cup team.



subtract: Letang

Gain Faulk and sign Ian Cole

Yeah I think that makes our defense a bit better.

I think even Washington is proving having a solid D-corpse with a good 3rd pair, is just as good as having that one top heavy minute guy. Carlson is good but really a highend No. one guy. On the same token VGK got to the finals without a true No. 1 defenseman. They had 3 good pairs.

Seeing that the Penguins will not bring back Ian Cole, the point is moot. I don't know a single person that covers the team that believes Cole will return. That is one relationship, between he and Sullivan, that IS DEFINITELY BROKEN. We need to move past Ian Cole. It isn't happening.

I like Faulk, and on the surface you are gaining about 4 years in age and about 2.5M cheaper cap hit. But if people are mad at Letang for his mental lapses....hoo-boy....Faulk is one of those guys too. He is a smooth skater, puts up points, but he is very prone to mental lapses.

If I were going to get rid of Letang, and I was going to take a chance on someone replacing him, my pick would be Rasmus Ristolainen from Buffalo. The kid is only 23. He was an 8th overall pick, and there are rumors out there he could be moved, because Buffalo is going to draft Rasmus Dahlin. Granted, Dahlin is LH, LD, and Ristolainen is RH, RD, but there are a good amount of rumors that Ristolainen could be moved. Ristolainen will make some of those maddening mistakes too, but I believe on a better team, with a better overall defense (and you get Gonchar's hands on him) that he can round into true stud #1 dman form.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby Pens Fans Sweden on Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:26 am

How deep is this years draft? Could we pick a solid player at 20 if we were to trade Kessel to the Kings and have their 1st round pick included in the deal?

With that said, which deal would you prefer?

1. Kessel and Hunwick for Toffoli, Martinez and the Kings 1st round pick (20th overall)
2. K and H For Pearson, Muzzin and the Kings 1st round pick
Last edited by Pens Fans Sweden on Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby thehockeyguru on Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:27 am

There was a segment in May on the Fan discussing the potential for trading Letang.

Post-Gazette Penguins writer Jason Mackey hopped on the show and said that he doubts there would be many takers for Letang given his situation financially. He thinks the Penguins are with him, good or bad.

That's the sense that I get too. That GMJR has put his hook out but there hasn't been as little as a nibble.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:48 am

thehockeyguru wrote:There was a segment in May on the Fan discussing the potential for trading Letang.

Post-Gazette Penguins writer Jason Mackey hopped on the show and said that he doubts there would be many takers for Letang given his situation financially. He thinks the Penguins are with him, good or bad.

That's the sense that I get too. That GMJR has put his hook out but there hasn't been as little as a nibble.

I would tend to agree with that, although, I think it is his injury history and poor play this season more than financial. Remember, Karlsson, Carlson, Doughty, and OEL are all upcoming UFAs, and ALL OF THEM are likely to make well over 8M. OEL is only 26, the rest are all 28. Letang's contract will soon be a bargain for a #1 d-man.

I think, unfortunately for many Penguins fans and people on this board, if the Penguins are to make a big move this summer, it would be Kessel. Buy low, sell high. Kessel just had his best season. If someone gives you a great offer that includes at least 2 younger players, with one of them being 20 goal, 40-50 point capable, you make the move.

For the Penguins to have a chance to move Letang and get any sort of decent return, they need to keep him, and for him to have a strong, bounce back season this year.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby lemieuxReturns on Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:27 am

I think a lot of people underestimate how much interest teams in the league would have in Letang. I am ready for him to move on. I still can’t sit here and not get his game 5 out of my mind. Ugh!!!
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby LimerickPensFan on Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:53 am

lemieuxReturns wrote:I think a lot of people underestimate how much interest teams in the league would have in Letang. I am ready for him to move on. I still can’t sit here and not get his game 5 out of my mind. Ugh!!!

Letang isn't going anywhere.

DK's site ran a page of social media posts from the Pens. Phil's on a fishing boat. Geno's having birthday parties for his son. Haggy's floating on his pool

Letang is working out. Already. The guy is a workout monster. He was unable to last offseason. What you saw last year was not Letang. Management knows that. They aren't looking to trade him.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby Faubert5 on Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:57 am

FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:There was a segment in May on the Fan discussing the potential for trading Letang.

Post-Gazette Penguins writer Jason Mackey hopped on the show and said that he doubts there would be many takers for Letang given his situation financially. He thinks the Penguins are with him, good or bad.

That's the sense that I get too. That GMJR has put his hook out but there hasn't been as little as a nibble.

I would tend to agree with that, although, I think it is his injury history and poor play this season more than financial. Remember, Karlsson, Carlson, Doughty, and OEL are all upcoming UFAs, and ALL OF THEM are likely to make well over 8M. OEL is only 26, the rest are all 28. Letang's contract will soon be a bargain for a #1 d-man.

I think, unfortunately for many Penguins fans and people on this board, if the Penguins are to make a big move this summer, it would be Kessel. Buy low, sell high. Kessel just had his best season. If someone gives you a great offer that includes at least 2 younger players, with one of them being 20 goal, 40-50 point capable, you make the move.

For the Penguins to have a chance to move Letang and get any sort of decent return, they need to keep him, and for him to have a strong, bounce back season this year.


I'd hate to lose Kessel but if someone made the team an offer they couldn't refuse I'd understand it.

If Letang has a bounce back year he'd be a bargain and if he plays like he did this year he'll be hard to move because he'll be making #1 or #2 defenseman money without being a good #1 or #2 defenseman.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby thehockeyguru on Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:00 am

Malkintent wrote:I remember talking heads saying that a big reason why the Pens beat the Craps in 2016 was bc Carlson wasn't in Letang's league. Did 74 really become so much better than 58 since then?


Letang's best season was in 15-16 when he had 16 goals and 51 assists for 67 points.
Letangs's best seasons otherwise were 50, 51 and 54 points.

Carlson's best season was this season where he had 15 goals 53 assists for 68 points.
Carlson's best seasons otherwise were 55, 39, and 37 (3) times.

So to answer your question, Carlson matched Letang's best season this season (imagine that in a contract year). If he can continue to produce at this level will depend on which team he signs with. Its clear that Letang has regressed, and you dont want players that are regressing making 7M+ on your roster. You also dont want to sign Carlson to the 8M+ 7 year deal that someone will give him. Because then again you are in the same situation as we are with Letang in 4 years, playing a player now 8M+ that is regressing.
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