Kessel trade thread

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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby thehockeyguru on Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:11 am

FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:There was a segment in May on the Fan discussing the potential for trading Letang.

Post-Gazette Penguins writer Jason Mackey hopped on the show and said that he doubts there would be many takers for Letang given his situation financially. He thinks the Penguins are with him, good or bad.

That's the sense that I get too. That GMJR has put his hook out but there hasn't been as little as a nibble.

I would tend to agree with that, although, I think it is his injury history and poor play this season more than financial. Remember, Karlsson, Carlson, Doughty, and OEL are all upcoming UFAs, and ALL OF THEM are likely to make well over 8M. OEL is only 26, the rest are all 28. Letang's contract will soon be a bargain for a #1 d-man.

I think, unfortunately for many Penguins fans and people on this board, if the Penguins are to make a big move this summer, it would be Kessel. Buy low, sell high. Kessel just had his best season. If someone gives you a great offer that includes at least 2 younger players, with one of them being 20 goal, 40-50 point capable, you make the move.

For the Penguins to have a chance to move Letang and get any sort of decent return, they need to keep him, and for him to have a strong, bounce back season this year.


First off I'll good goaltending can mask a lot of a team's inadequacies. We've been blessed to have had cup runs with great goaltending by Fleury and now Murray. To me Letang isnt a #1 that you can win with if you dont have great goaltending. Kris Letang is not a Nick Lindstrom where you can have
Chris Osgood in goal and still win a Cup. Kris Letang will not make a goalie look better than he is.

I'll always say that the Pens have won their Cups despite of Letang and not with him being a major piece (see last seasons run). Guys like Letang and Karlsson to be aren't guys I'd pay because they aren't great defensively. Give me a guy who can shutdown a teams top line over a defenseman who pots 15-18 goals everyday of the week.

With that being said even with a bounce back season, will someone pay a 32 year old Kris Letang for 3 more seasons? I don't know but I'm thinking no. I'm of the belief that if you can unload him at any point you do so without regard for the return because right now the potential of 4 more seasons of Letang is a risk to the success of the franchise that I'm not willing to take.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:49 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:There was a segment in May on the Fan discussing the potential for trading Letang.

Post-Gazette Penguins writer Jason Mackey hopped on the show and said that he doubts there would be many takers for Letang given his situation financially. He thinks the Penguins are with him, good or bad.

That's the sense that I get too. That GMJR has put his hook out but there hasn't been as little as a nibble.

I would tend to agree with that, although, I think it is his injury history and poor play this season more than financial. Remember, Karlsson, Carlson, Doughty, and OEL are all upcoming UFAs, and ALL OF THEM are likely to make well over 8M. OEL is only 26, the rest are all 28. Letang's contract will soon be a bargain for a #1 d-man.

I think, unfortunately for many Penguins fans and people on this board, if the Penguins are to make a big move this summer, it would be Kessel. Buy low, sell high. Kessel just had his best season. If someone gives you a great offer that includes at least 2 younger players, with one of them being 20 goal, 40-50 point capable, you make the move.

For the Penguins to have a chance to move Letang and get any sort of decent return, they need to keep him, and for him to have a strong, bounce back season this year.


First off I'll good goaltending can mask a lot of a team's inadequacies. We've been blessed to have had cup runs with great goaltending by Fleury and now Murray. To me Letang isnt a #1 that you can win with if you dont have great goaltending. Kris Letang is not a Nick Lindstrom where you can have
Chris Osgood in goal and still win a Cup. Kris Letang will not make a goalie look better than he is.

I'll always say that the Pens have won their Cups despite of Letang and not with him being a major piece (see last seasons run). Guys like Letang and Karlsson to be aren't guys I'd pay because they aren't great defensively. Give me a guy who can shutdown a teams top line over a defenseman who pots 15-18 goals everyday of the week.

With that being said even with a bounce back season, will someone pay a 32 year old Kris Letang for 3 more seasons? I don't know but I'm thinking no. I'm of the belief that if you can unload him at any point you do so without regard for the return because right now the potential of 4 more seasons of Letang is a risk to the success of the franchise that I'm not willing to take.

Do you consider Johnny Boychuk a #1 d-man? I sure don't. He turns 35 mid way through the season, and the Isles have him for 3 more years beyond this coming season. Leddy is probaby a bit better and more well rounded, but I still don't see either of those guys, the Islanders top defenseman, as better than Letang or a true #1. When I think of a true #1, I think of guys you know are dangerous and can beat you from the backend......Subban, Doughty, Karlsson, Burns, Hedman, Carlson, Ekblad, Pietrangelo, Gostisbehere, Letang.....these guys are normally above average defensively, and can burn you 5on5 or on the PP with their offense. Not every team has a true #1, so if one becomes available, there should be interest. The return might not be as big for a guy over 30 with an injury history as it would be for a 25 year old #1 guy, but there would be interest.

I would think Colorado would be interested. Johnson and Barrie are good, but I don't see either of them as solid #1 guys, more 2/3 types.

New Jersey? I think Vatanen is great, and so is Severson....but again, more #2 guys.

Vancouver.....who is their stud d-man? Don't got one.

Would Toronto look to deal someone like Marner or Nylander to get a better top end defenseman.....even if he is a bit older.

If Doughty, Karlsson, or OEL leave their current teams.....all of them would be without a #1 d-man, and nothing really close to it.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby lemieuxReturns on Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:34 pm

LimerickPensFan wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:I think a lot of people underestimate how much interest teams in the league would have in Letang. I am ready for him to move on. I still can’t sit here and not get his game 5 out of my mind. Ugh!!!

Letang isn't going anywhere.

DK's site ran a page of social media posts from the Pens. Phil's on a fishing boat. Geno's having birthday parties for his son. Haggy's floating on his pool

Letang is working out. Already. The guy is a workout monster. He was unable to last offseason. What you saw last year was not Letang. Management knows that. They aren't looking to trade him.



Letang posting pictures of himself working out means nothing. No one ever questioned his commitment to his health. It also does not mean that Haggy and Geno are not working out.
What people are tired of is the Letang we had in game 5. He can condition himself to be the best in the league and you still get game 5 Letang. I am done with game 5 Letang.... regardless of his gym routine.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby joker10277 on Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:55 pm

Letang has the same problem as some Steelers players.
Million dollar talent, 10 cent head..
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby LimerickPensFan on Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:24 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:I think a lot of people underestimate how much interest teams in the league would have in Letang. I am ready for him to move on. I still can’t sit here and not get his game 5 out of my mind. Ugh!!!

Letang isn't going anywhere.

DK's site ran a page of social media posts from the Pens. Phil's on a fishing boat. Geno's having birthday parties for his son. Haggy's floating on his pool

Letang is working out. Already. The guy is a workout monster. He was unable to last offseason. What you saw last year was not Letang. Management knows that. They aren't looking to trade him.



Letang posting pictures of himself working out means nothing. No one ever questioned his commitment to his health. It also does not mean that Haggy and Geno are not working out.
What people are tired of is the Letang we had in game 5. He can condition himself to be the best in the league and you still get game 5 Letang. I am done with game 5 Letang.... regardless of his gym routine.

The Letang in game 5 was a Letang that was not able to work out in the previous offseason. It affected his entire season.

If you see it again this coming season in any great amount (he always had a knack for stupid plays - he just did it more often this year), then call for getting rid of him.

You were still seeing the effects of his neck injury last season.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby Badger Bob on Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:24 pm

I hate any analogies comparing the Pens to anything Steeler or NFL related.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby stonewizard51 on Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:14 pm

I'm gonna take a knee and protest those analogies
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby thehockeyguru on Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:03 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:There was a segment in May on the Fan discussing the potential for trading Letang.

Post-Gazette Penguins writer Jason Mackey hopped on the show and said that he doubts there would be many takers for Letang given his situation financially. He thinks the Penguins are with him, good or bad.

That's the sense that I get too. That GMJR has put his hook out but there hasn't been as little as a nibble.

I would tend to agree with that, although, I think it is his injury history and poor play this season more than financial. Remember, Karlsson, Carlson, Doughty, and OEL are all upcoming UFAs, and ALL OF THEM are likely to make well over 8M. OEL is only 26, the rest are all 28. Letang's contract will soon be a bargain for a #1 d-man.

I think, unfortunately for many Penguins fans and people on this board, if the Penguins are to make a big move this summer, it would be Kessel. Buy low, sell high. Kessel just had his best season. If someone gives you a great offer that includes at least 2 younger players, with one of them being 20 goal, 40-50 point capable, you make the move.

For the Penguins to have a chance to move Letang and get any sort of decent return, they need to keep him, and for him to have a strong, bounce back season this year.


First off I'll good goaltending can mask a lot of a team's inadequacies. We've been blessed to have had cup runs with great goaltending by Fleury and now Murray. To me Letang isnt a #1 that you can win with if you dont have great goaltending. Kris Letang is not a Nick Lindstrom where you can have
Chris Osgood in goal and still win a Cup. Kris Letang will not make a goalie look better than he is.

I'll always say that the Pens have won their Cups despite of Letang and not with him being a major piece (see last seasons run). Guys like Letang and Karlsson to be aren't guys I'd pay because they aren't great defensively. Give me a guy who can shutdown a teams top line over a defenseman who pots 15-18 goals everyday of the week.

With that being said even with a bounce back season, will someone pay a 32 year old Kris Letang for 3 more seasons? I don't know but I'm thinking no. I'm of the belief that if you can unload him at any point you do so without regard for the return because right now the potential of 4 more seasons of Letang is a risk to the success of the franchise that I'm not willing to take.

Do you consider Johnny Boychuk a #1 d-man? I sure don't. He turns 35 mid way through the season, and the Isles have him for 3 more years beyond this coming season. Leddy is probaby a bit better and more well rounded, but I still don't see either of those guys, the Islanders top defenseman, as better than Letang or a true #1. When I think of a true #1, I think of guys you know are dangerous and can beat you from the backend......Subban, Doughty, Karlsson, Burns, Hedman, Carlson, Ekblad, Pietrangelo, Gostisbehere, Letang.....these guys are normally above average defensively, and can burn you 5on5 or on the PP with their offense. Not every team has a true #1, so if one becomes available, there should be interest. The return might not be as big for a guy over 30 with an injury history as it would be for a 25 year old #1 guy, but there would be interest.

I would think Colorado would be interested. Johnson and Barrie are good, but I don't see either of them as solid #1 guys, more 2/3 types.

New Jersey? I think Vatanen is great, and so is Severson....but again, more #2 guys.

Vancouver.....who is their stud d-man? Don't got one.

Would Toronto look to deal someone like Marner or Nylander to get a better top end defenseman.....even if he is a bit older.

If Doughty, Karlsson, or OEL leave their current teams.....all of them would be without a #1 d-man, and nothing really close to it.


You left off Duncan Keith. Once a #1 defenseman and key cog during the Hawks cup years. But now he's 34 and coming off a season where he had 2 goals 30 assists and was a -29.

Letang will be a spitting image, his offensive skills will slip and all that will be left is a guy with bottom pairing defensive skills.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby ville5 on Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:11 pm

Lebrun says Skinner is the most likely to be moved. Could happen in the next 7 to 10 days. Which would lead me to think draft picks are involved.
Article is on the Athletic supposedly.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby Mythodikal on Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:12 am

LimerickPensFan wrote:
Daniel wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:I'm trying to figure out why you would ever want to trade your top-end talent.


Salary Cap
Degraded performance (see Letang, Kris)
Injury history
Sell high before they diminish
Age and needing to rebuild (Vancouver really should have traded the Sedin's, Detroit with many of their top end guys)

Why are you thinking rebuild when we have about five years left at peak performance of two of the most dynamic players in league history? We don't have the time to rebuild. Any trade should make the team immediately better. If you can trade Letang and pick up a better puck carrying defenseman in the same offseason, then do it. If you can't, if you can only get one that's almost as good, you don't do it. You work with Letang to try to lower his shortcomings. You hope his problems from last year are related to not being able to work out during the offseason.

Same with Phil. If you can't find a person to replace his offense, you don't make the trade or you weaken the team at a time when we can't afford to do that. The window is closing. If you are going to try to have a team at the end of that window that is competitive for the cup still, you're dreaming. You don't replace Crosby and Malkin with mediocre talent.


THIS! Sorry, I know I'm late to the dance and I still have 3 more pages to read, buuuutttt thiiiissss!!!

In the first 6 pages of this thread I've read so much about getting a fair deal, top prospects, and first round picks. First off, the level of picks that you think a team will give up for Phil Kessel is very interesting. The idea of a team that is building for the future giving up a top ten pick (or in some proposals even higher) for a 31 year old who doesn't like being the face of the franchise... Yah. .. makes sense.

That leads to the other point... tell my why the Penguins want picks and prospects? They'very been trading them away at a pretty steady rate to win now, why the sudden changes of mentality? As has been stated by the logical arguments on here, the Pens are in "win now" mode. You don't trade a 92 point player for a pick and a prospect that "might" come to fruition in 3 years... "Sorry Sid and Geno..."

With that said I have appreciated the people looking at actual hockey trades. One of the suggestions I loved was Skinner and Hannifan for something like Kessel and Shear and then they would have to provide a pick. The best part of the responses was that we wouldn't want a top ended left handed D cause we're all set there, as if Hannifin would be playing 3rd pair. Hannifin is 21 and looks like he is going to be a stud for many years to come, not to mention under control for a few more years, but God forbid you push Doumoulin or Maata down the line up...

This team just won two Stanley Cup, could have been three if it weren't for a little bit of bad luck, some likely fatigue, a goalie that went through a season that his father died and everything that comes with that, and just playing old stuff and things (and yes that is a scientific term).

When I hear something from GMJR like Sprong will be in the line up next year, I think great, give the kid a chance. When I hear a wide array of people saying trade Phil Kessel, likely our best player in the regular season last year, for picks and prospects... are those same peoplease going to be asking what happened to our power play in the regular season? Or our 5 on 5 scoring. Yah, sure, the guy didn't light it up in the playoffs. And yes, he would most likely want to play with Malkin (has any person ever playing hockey not wanted to b on the ice with the person you think makes you the best player?).

This comes down to do you want a 3rd cup in 4 years? Or are you more worried with how the team looks in 3 years when Crosby and Malkin are 34 and 35? I say go for the now, no one seems bitter about 91 and 92, or even going for 93. The dark years don't really come up except to bring up what it lead too...

I wonder what I commented on that was brought up in the 3 pages I didn't wait to read...
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby pekkasteele on Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:01 am

Mythodikal wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:
Daniel wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:I'm trying to figure out why you would ever want to trade your top-end talent.


Salary Cap
Degraded performance (see Letang, Kris)
Injury history
Sell high before they diminish
Age and needing to rebuild (Vancouver really should have traded the Sedin's, Detroit with many of their top end guys)

Why are you thinking rebuild when we have about five years left at peak performance of two of the most dynamic players in league history? We don't have the time to rebuild. Any trade should make the team immediately better. If you can trade Letang and pick up a better puck carrying defenseman in the same offseason, then do it. If you can't, if you can only get one that's almost as good, you don't do it. You work with Letang to try to lower his shortcomings. You hope his problems from last year are related to not being able to work out during the offseason.

Same with Phil. If you can't find a person to replace his offense, you don't make the trade or you weaken the team at a time when we can't afford to do that. The window is closing. If you are going to try to have a team at the end of that window that is competitive for the cup still, you're dreaming. You don't replace Crosby and Malkin with mediocre talent.


THIS! Sorry, I know I'm late to the dance and I still have 3 more pages to read, buuuutttt thiiiissss!!!

In the first 6 pages of this thread I've read so much about getting a fair deal, top prospects, and first round picks. First off, the level of picks that you think a team will give up for Phil Kessel is very interesting. The idea of a team that is building for the future giving up a top ten pick (or in some proposals even higher) for a 31 year old who doesn't like being the face of the franchise... Yah. .. makes sense.

That leads to the other point... tell my why the Penguins want picks and prospects? They'very been trading them away at a pretty steady rate to win now, why the sudden changes of mentality? As has been stated by the logical arguments on here, the Pens are in "win now" mode. You don't trade a 92 point player for a pick and a prospect that "might" come to fruition in 3 years... "Sorry Sid and Geno..."

With that said I have appreciated the people looking at actual hockey trades. One of the suggestions I loved was Skinner and Hannifan for something like Kessel and Shear and then they would have to provide a pick. The best part of the responses was that we wouldn't want a top ended left handed D cause we're all set there, as if Hannifin would be playing 3rd pair. Hannifin is 21 and looks like he is going to be a stud for many years to come, not to mention under control for a few more years, but God forbid you push Doumoulin or Maata down the line up...

This team just won two Stanley Cup, could have been three if it weren't for a little bit of bad luck, some likely fatigue, a goalie that went through a season that his father died and everything that comes with that, and just playing old stuff and things (and yes that is a scientific term).

When I hear something from GMJR like Sprong will be in the line up next year, I think great, give the kid a chance. When I hear a wide array of people saying trade Phil Kessel, likely our best player in the regular season last year, for picks and prospects... are those same peoplease going to be asking what happened to our power play in the regular season? Or our 5 on 5 scoring. Yah, sure, the guy didn't light it up in the playoffs. And yes, he would most likely want to play with Malkin (has any person ever playing hockey not wanted to b on the ice with the person you think makes you the best player?).

This comes down to do you want a 3rd cup in 4 years? Or are you more worried with how the team looks in 3 years when Crosby and Malkin are 34 and 35? I say go for the now, no one seems bitter about 91 and 92, or even going for 93. The dark years don't really come up except to bring up what it lead too...

I wonder what I commented on that was brought up in the 3 pages I didn't wait to read...


One of the bigest problems this year was not scoring from the top lines, it was depth at defence and 2nd scoring from line 3 and 4, if we had more gotten 5 goals from those lines, and had better defenders we would probably gotten past Caps. How do you improve that, without trading salary away? And how do you acquire that without giving something away? Hunwick and Sheary won't give enough back.

If you look at VGK the have more like 3 2nd pairings on defence, we don't, we had that last year when we won. So trading Kessel and/or Letang is probably what needs to be done. We won't get a player that matches Kessels points, but we might get players that matches Kessels, Kuhn, Reaves, and Simons point, since, also, with better wingers Brass and Sheahan can produce more so the total sum is better. And with improving defence at the same time, the opponents don't score as much.

It has never been for anyone, I think, to trade Kessel and get someone in return that scores as much.

It is a team sport, if we improve the TEAM by trading one player, you should do it. Kessel don't make the team, everyone does.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:09 am

Mythodikal wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:
Daniel wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:I'm trying to figure out why you would ever want to trade your top-end talent.


Salary Cap
Degraded performance (see Letang, Kris)
Injury history
Sell high before they diminish
Age and needing to rebuild (Vancouver really should have traded the Sedin's, Detroit with many of their top end guys)

Why are you thinking rebuild when we have about five years left at peak performance of two of the most dynamic players in league history? We don't have the time to rebuild. Any trade should make the team immediately better. If you can trade Letang and pick up a better puck carrying defenseman in the same offseason, then do it. If you can't, if you can only get one that's almost as good, you don't do it. You work with Letang to try to lower his shortcomings. You hope his problems from last year are related to not being able to work out during the offseason.

Same with Phil. If you can't find a person to replace his offense, you don't make the trade or you weaken the team at a time when we can't afford to do that. The window is closing. If you are going to try to have a team at the end of that window that is competitive for the cup still, you're dreaming. You don't replace Crosby and Malkin with mediocre talent.


THIS! Sorry, I know I'm late to the dance and I still have 3 more pages to read, buuuutttt thiiiissss!!!

In the first 6 pages of this thread I've read so much about getting a fair deal, top prospects, and first round picks. First off, the level of picks that you think a team will give up for Phil Kessel is very interesting. The idea of a team that is building for the future giving up a top ten pick (or in some proposals even higher) for a 31 year old who doesn't like being the face of the franchise... Yah. .. makes sense.

That leads to the other point... tell my why the Penguins want picks and prospects? They'very been trading them away at a pretty steady rate to win now, why the sudden changes of mentality? As has been stated by the logical arguments on here, the Pens are in "win now" mode. You don't trade a 92 point player for a pick and a prospect that "might" come to fruition in 3 years... "Sorry Sid and Geno..."

With that said I have appreciated the people looking at actual hockey trades. One of the suggestions I loved was Skinner and Hannifan for something like Kessel and Shear and then they would have to provide a pick. The best part of the responses was that we wouldn't want a top ended left handed D cause we're all set there, as if Hannifin would be playing 3rd pair. Hannifin is 21 and looks like he is going to be a stud for many years to come, not to mention under control for a few more years, but God forbid you push Doumoulin or Maata down the line up...

This team just won two Stanley Cup, could have been three if it weren't for a little bit of bad luck, some likely fatigue, a goalie that went through a season that his father died and everything that comes with that, and just playing old stuff and things (and yes that is a scientific term).

When I hear something from GMJR like Sprong will be in the line up next year, I think great, give the kid a chance. When I hear a wide array of people saying trade Phil Kessel, likely our best player in the regular season last year, for picks and prospects... are those same peoplease going to be asking what happened to our power play in the regular season? Or our 5 on 5 scoring. Yah, sure, the guy didn't light it up in the playoffs. And yes, he would most likely want to play with Malkin (has any person ever playing hockey not wanted to b on the ice with the person you think makes you the best player?).

This comes down to do you want a 3rd cup in 4 years? Or are you more worried with how the team looks in 3 years when Crosby and Malkin are 34 and 35? I say go for the now, no one seems bitter about 91 and 92, or even going for 93. The dark years don't really come up except to bring up what it lead too...

I wonder what I commented on that was brought up in the 3 pages I didn't wait to read...

Welcome to the board. For the past year, I have been in the mode that Kessel, Letang.....and at one point Malkin (have since backed off of that) are going to need to be traded. The big thing people need to realize is, you can make the team younger AND still be a strong Cup contender. I would never want to see Letang or Kessel traded away for just picks, or for prospects that are several years away. But the team should be looking to add speed, skilled players with size that aren't slug skaters, and some players that are better defensively. So if I can get a Domi or Reinhart or Skinner type for Kessel, I'd definitely consider it, because I think it would be better for the team and the long run and the short run.

Too many people are hung up on the season Kessel had this year. I took a look at several stats during a 4 year period.....essentially, the year before Kessel arrived, the two Cup years, and this current season. What people seem to overlook is, while Kessel scored 34 goals this year, Sid dropped by 15 goals. Over the course of several seasons, typically the goals scored by your main players just get shifted around from year to year. So, I took a look at the number of Even Strength goals scored by the top 4 even strength goal scorers over the past 4 years.

- In 17/18, the Penguins top 4 ES goal scorers put in 86 even strength goals.
- In 16/17, the Penguins top 4 ES goal scorers put in 88 even strength goals.
- In 15/16, the Penguins top 4 ES goal scorers put in 79 even strength goals.
- In 14/15, the Penguins top 4 ES goal scorers put in 72 even strength goals.

I don't care who scored what, but there isn't a huge variance between the years. The Penguins top 4 ES scorers put up 7 more goals from the non-Cup 14-15 to the Cup winning 15-16 season. You might be shocked to know that, Patric Hornqvist is only in the list above for 14-15 season. The top 4 ES goal scorers this year and last year......were Malkin, Crosby, Kessel......and Sheary. And in 15-16, it was Kunitz in place of Sheary. So, there is a total of 16 ES goals difference between the last non-Kessel year and their highest ES goal total by 4 players since.

You want to see the 2 big differences......The Penguins total goals against this year, all strengths (PP, ES, PK) was 248. It was 229 last year. It was 199 the year before, and 204 the last year without Kessel. This isn't blaming Kessel, but, the GA has been climbing, and at almost 20 goals more allowed this year, our defense let the team down during the season.

The PP won't die without Kessel. In fact, it has been argued this year, especially during the playoffs, that the PP went through Kessel too much, and the Caps were able to defend the Penguins PP better because of it.

If the Penguins trade Kessel for a 22-24 year old winger who can score 20 goals, 50 points, and play better defensively....the team overall would likely improve, but in the current and the future. It's not a knock on Phil, but with the exception of Guentzel, Maatta, and Murray.....ALL of this team's top players are 30-32 years old. 6-7 guys in that age range. You have got to start getting this team a bit younger (they were 7th oldest team), and you CAN DO THAT and still be a strong contender in the Crosby/Malkin window remaining.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby Defence21 on Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:22 am

FLPensFan wrote:Welcome to the board. For the past year, I have been in the mode that Kessel, Letang.....and at one point Malkin (have since backed off of that) are going to need to be traded. The big thing people need to realize is, you can make the team younger AND still be a strong Cup contender. I would never want to see Letang or Kessel traded away for just picks, or for prospects that are several years away. But the team should be looking to add speed, skilled players with size that aren't slug skaters, and some players that are better defensively. So if I can get a Domi or Reinhart or Skinner type for Kessel, I'd definitely consider it, because I think it would be better for the team and the long run and the short run.

Too many people are hung up on the season Kessel had this year. I took a look at several stats during a 4 year period.....essentially, the year before Kessel arrived, the two Cup years, and this current season. What people seem to overlook is, while Kessel scored 34 goals this year, Sid dropped by 15 goals. Over the course of several seasons, typically the goals scored by your main players just get shifted around from year to year. So, I took a look at the number of Even Strength goals scored by the top 4 even strength goal scorers over the past 4 years.

- In 17/18, the Penguins top 4 ES goal scorers put in 86 even strength goals.
- In 16/17, the Penguins top 4 ES goal scorers put in 88 even strength goals.
- In 15/16, the Penguins top 4 ES goal scorers put in 79 even strength goals.
- In 14/15, the Penguins top 4 ES goal scorers put in 72 even strength goals.

I don't care who scored what, but there isn't a huge variance between the years. The Penguins top 4 ES scorers put up 7 more goals from the non-Cup 14-15 to the Cup winning 15-16 season. You might be shocked to know that, Patric Hornqvist is only in the list above for 14-15 season. The top 4 ES goal scorers this year and last year......were Malkin, Crosby, Kessel......and Sheary. And in 15-16, it was Kunitz in place of Sheary. So, there is a total of 16 ES goals difference between the last non-Kessel year and their highest ES goal total by 4 players since.

You want to see the 2 big differences......The Penguins total goals against this year, all strengths (PP, ES, PK) was 248. It was 229 last year. It was 199 the year before, and 204 the last year without Kessel. This isn't blaming Kessel, but, the GA has been climbing, and at almost 20 goals more allowed this year, our defense let the team down during the season.

The PP won't die without Kessel. In fact, it has been argued this year, especially during the playoffs, that the PP went through Kessel too much, and the Caps were able to defend the Penguins PP better because of it.

If the Penguins trade Kessel for a 22-24 year old winger who can score 20 goals, 50 points, and play better defensively....the team overall would likely improve, but in the current and the future. It's not a knock on Phil, but with the exception of Guentzel, Maatta, and Murray.....ALL of this team's top players are 30-32 years old. 6-7 guys in that age range. You have got to start getting this team a bit younger (they were 7th oldest team), and you CAN DO THAT and still be a strong contender in the Crosby/Malkin window remaining.

This is a fantastic post that really breaks down why the team will have to move on from some players sooner or later. Yes, Kessel had a great year, and trading him for a young 50 point player might seem to be a backward move, but it it also helps the team move toward a trend of better defense and better goals against, the loss of goals scored will be negligible. Additionally, people always frown upon trading a player at his low point (Letang), suggesting it would be better to wait for a rebound and a high return. Well, in Kessel's case, I'm not sure his value will ever be higher than it is with him coming off a career year. Now is the time to capitalize on a trade to bring in some youth that can help now AND in the future. If the Penguins can successfully make such trades, there might not be a drop from playoff team to non playoff team when Sid/Geno retire.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby LimerickPensFan on Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:25 am

Do even strength goals count more than power play goals do?

Just asking...
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:54 am

LimerickPensFan wrote:Do even strength goals count more than power play goals do?

Just asking...

No, they don't, but most stats are going to look at even strength over all situations combined, because you get a truer sense of the stats. You expect goalies to have worse save% in PP situations. You expect to get less PP opportunities in the playoffs.

If you want to be concerned with PP stats great. Penguins finished with the #1 PP in the league in the regular season. They finished 8th during the playoffs. Last year they were 3rd overall in regular season, 5th in playoffs. 15-16, they were 16th in the regular season, but #6 overall in the playoffs. 14-15, they were 10th overall in the regular season, 13th overall in the playoffs.

You want to look at the top 4 scorers for the Penguins over the last 4 years, in all situations not just even strength.....ok:

- 17/18, Penguins top 4 goal scorers put up 134 goals (270 total goals scored by the team) Top 4 account for 49.6% of teams goals. 7449 goals scored league-wide
- 16/17, Penguins top 4 goal scorers put up 123 goals (278 total goals scored by the team) Top 4 account for 44.2% of teams goals. 6704 goals scored league-wide
- 15/16, Penguins top 4 goal scorers put up 111 goals (241 total goals scored by the team) Top 4 account for 46.0% of teams goals. 6565 goals scored league-wide
- 14/15, Penguins top 4 goal scorers put up 102 goals (217 total goals scored by the team) Top 4 account for 47.0% of teams goals. 6535 goals scored league-wide

The trend is more goals overall between the top 4 goal scorers when you look all situations....but the Penguins didn't increase in goals scored the past year, they went down. That tells me the Penguins aren't getting enough secondary scoring. I added that column in the end, and you can see that pre-Phil, the top 4 goal scorers on the Penguins accounted for 47% of the teams goals, the went down 1%, then down another 1.8%, then shot up 5.4%. The Penguins didn't get enough secondary goal scoring during the season......that was also their problem in the playoffs.

Then you look at the last piece I put there.......league scoring has gone up every year. The Penguins scoring 241 in 15/16 was actually a more impressive jump, because there were only 30 more goals scored across the league, and the Penguins scored 24 more goals from 14/15 to 15/16. So, just because the Penguins top 4 goal scorers had more output, doesn't necessarily mean it was tied to the players they had, or one player being dominate. The league scoring went up year over year, and so did the Penguins goals from their top 4 goal scorers.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:01 pm

Defence21 wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Welcome to the board. For the past year, I have been in the mode that Kessel, Letang.....and at one point Malkin (have since backed off of that) are going to need to be traded. The big thing people need to realize is, you can make the team younger AND still be a strong Cup contender. I would never want to see Letang or Kessel traded away for just picks, or for prospects that are several years away. But the team should be looking to add speed, skilled players with size that aren't slug skaters, and some players that are better defensively. So if I can get a Domi or Reinhart or Skinner type for Kessel, I'd definitely consider it, because I think it would be better for the team and the long run and the short run.

Too many people are hung up on the season Kessel had this year. I took a look at several stats during a 4 year period.....essentially, the year before Kessel arrived, the two Cup years, and this current season. What people seem to overlook is, while Kessel scored 34 goals this year, Sid dropped by 15 goals. Over the course of several seasons, typically the goals scored by your main players just get shifted around from year to year. So, I took a look at the number of Even Strength goals scored by the top 4 even strength goal scorers over the past 4 years.

- In 17/18, the Penguins top 4 ES goal scorers put in 86 even strength goals.
- In 16/17, the Penguins top 4 ES goal scorers put in 88 even strength goals.
- In 15/16, the Penguins top 4 ES goal scorers put in 79 even strength goals.
- In 14/15, the Penguins top 4 ES goal scorers put in 72 even strength goals.

I don't care who scored what, but there isn't a huge variance between the years. The Penguins top 4 ES scorers put up 7 more goals from the non-Cup 14-15 to the Cup winning 15-16 season. You might be shocked to know that, Patric Hornqvist is only in the list above for 14-15 season. The top 4 ES goal scorers this year and last year......were Malkin, Crosby, Kessel......and Sheary. And in 15-16, it was Kunitz in place of Sheary. So, there is a total of 16 ES goals difference between the last non-Kessel year and their highest ES goal total by 4 players since.

You want to see the 2 big differences......The Penguins total goals against this year, all strengths (PP, ES, PK) was 248. It was 229 last year. It was 199 the year before, and 204 the last year without Kessel. This isn't blaming Kessel, but, the GA has been climbing, and at almost 20 goals more allowed this year, our defense let the team down during the season.

The PP won't die without Kessel. In fact, it has been argued this year, especially during the playoffs, that the PP went through Kessel too much, and the Caps were able to defend the Penguins PP better because of it.

If the Penguins trade Kessel for a 22-24 year old winger who can score 20 goals, 50 points, and play better defensively....the team overall would likely improve, but in the current and the future. It's not a knock on Phil, but with the exception of Guentzel, Maatta, and Murray.....ALL of this team's top players are 30-32 years old. 6-7 guys in that age range. You have got to start getting this team a bit younger (they were 7th oldest team), and you CAN DO THAT and still be a strong contender in the Crosby/Malkin window remaining.

This is a fantastic post that really breaks down why the team will have to move on from some players sooner or later. Yes, Kessel had a great year, and trading him for a young 50 point player might seem to be a backward move, but it it also helps the team move toward a trend of better defense and better goals against, the loss of goals scored will be negligible. Additionally, people always frown upon trading a player at his low point (Letang), suggesting it would be better to wait for a rebound and a high return. Well, in Kessel's case, I'm not sure his value will ever be higher than it is with him coming off a career year. Now is the time to capitalize on a trade to bring in some youth that can help now AND in the future. If the Penguins can successfully make such trades, there might not be a drop from playoff team to non playoff team when Sid/Geno retire.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and nobody is right or wrong.......but I'm happy that after about a year's time, likely 2000 posts across a few hundred pages of thread, I was finally able to convince someone that the Penguins can be strong contenders in the Sid/Geno window by swapping out older, soon to be declining players, for younger, more rounded players. :D I want this team to be successful now and post-87/71. I think that is absolutely possible if GMJR doesn't fall in love with players over team needs. The league is getting younger and faster. More teams copied the Penguins team speed template from 15/16. The way to compete is get younger and faster when the opportunity presents itself, not having all your best players in their 30's. We can't do it through the draft without having bad, non-playoff years. But we can do it smartly through trades. You find those young teams that are just about to be contenders, but need a better veteran, a playoff warrior, to help round out their young team (see Toronto with Marleau as a great example).

I've been a fan since early 80's, pre-Lemieux. Those times were not fun. I was a fan during the Rico Fata, Ramzi Abid, Tomas Surovy, Shane Endicott days....also....not very fun. If you have a smart GM (and GMJR is a smart dude), you can accomplish your current goals and set the team up for the future at the same time. Hoping that GMJR is on that same page. The Red Wings did it for 25 straight years, until they failed to move on from Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Zetterberg, Kronwall, etc.....as they aged into their 30's. Penguins don't need to make that same mistake.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby LimerickPensFan on Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:09 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:Do even strength goals count more than power play goals do?

Just asking...

No, they don't, but most stats are going to look at even strength over all situations combined, because you get a truer sense of the stats. You expect goalies to have worse save% in PP situations. You expect to get less PP opportunities in the playoffs.

If you want to be concerned with PP stats great. Penguins finished with the #1 PP in the league in the regular season. They finished 8th during the playoffs. Last year they were 3rd overall in regular season, 5th in playoffs. 15-16, they were 16th in the regular season, but #6 overall in the playoffs. 14-15, they were 10th overall in the regular season, 13th overall in the playoffs.

You want to look at the top 4 scorers for the Penguins over the last 4 years, in all situations not just even strength.....ok:

- 17/18, Penguins top 4 goal scorers put up 134 goals (270 total goals scored by the team) Top 4 account for 49.6% of teams goals. 7449 goals scored league-wide
- 16/17, Penguins top 4 goal scorers put up 123 goals (278 total goals scored by the team) Top 4 account for 44.2% of teams goals. 6704 goals scored league-wide
- 15/16, Penguins top 4 goal scorers put up 111 goals (241 total goals scored by the team) Top 4 account for 46.0% of teams goals. 6565 goals scored league-wide
- 14/15, Penguins top 4 goal scorers put up 102 goals (217 total goals scored by the team) Top 4 account for 47.0% of teams goals. 6535 goals scored league-wide

The trend is more goals overall between the top 4 goal scorers when you look all situations....but the Penguins didn't increase in goals scored the past year, they went down. That tells me the Penguins aren't getting enough secondary scoring. I added that column in the end, and you can see that pre-Phil, the top 4 goal scorers on the Penguins accounted for 47% of the teams goals, the went down 1%, then down another 1.8%, then shot up 5.4%. The Penguins didn't get enough secondary goal scoring during the season......that was also their problem in the playoffs.

Then you look at the last piece I put there.......league scoring has gone up every year. The Penguins scoring 241 in 15/16 was actually a more impressive jump, because there were only 30 more goals scored across the league, and the Penguins scored 24 more goals from 14/15 to 15/16. So, just because the Penguins top 4 goal scorers had more output, doesn't necessarily mean it was tied to the players they had, or one player being dominate. The league scoring went up year over year, and so did the Penguins goals from their top 4 goal scorers.

The question was a bit snarky in purpose, but if you have a player that is regularly scoring on power plays, I think that's just as valuable as one that only scores even strength.

No way to show it, but I would guess a significant part of the dropoff last year had to do with fatigue from two consecutive runs the length of the playoffs plus a pretty vicious schedule with a lot of back-to-back games - many with travel in between.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:44 pm

LimerickPensFan wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:Do even strength goals count more than power play goals do?

Just asking...

No, they don't, but most stats are going to look at even strength over all situations combined, because you get a truer sense of the stats. You expect goalies to have worse save% in PP situations. You expect to get less PP opportunities in the playoffs.

If you want to be concerned with PP stats great. Penguins finished with the #1 PP in the league in the regular season. They finished 8th during the playoffs. Last year they were 3rd overall in regular season, 5th in playoffs. 15-16, they were 16th in the regular season, but #6 overall in the playoffs. 14-15, they were 10th overall in the regular season, 13th overall in the playoffs.

You want to look at the top 4 scorers for the Penguins over the last 4 years, in all situations not just even strength.....ok:

- 17/18, Penguins top 4 goal scorers put up 134 goals (270 total goals scored by the team) Top 4 account for 49.6% of teams goals. 7449 goals scored league-wide
- 16/17, Penguins top 4 goal scorers put up 123 goals (278 total goals scored by the team) Top 4 account for 44.2% of teams goals. 6704 goals scored league-wide
- 15/16, Penguins top 4 goal scorers put up 111 goals (241 total goals scored by the team) Top 4 account for 46.0% of teams goals. 6565 goals scored league-wide
- 14/15, Penguins top 4 goal scorers put up 102 goals (217 total goals scored by the team) Top 4 account for 47.0% of teams goals. 6535 goals scored league-wide

The trend is more goals overall between the top 4 goal scorers when you look all situations....but the Penguins didn't increase in goals scored the past year, they went down. That tells me the Penguins aren't getting enough secondary scoring. I added that column in the end, and you can see that pre-Phil, the top 4 goal scorers on the Penguins accounted for 47% of the teams goals, the went down 1%, then down another 1.8%, then shot up 5.4%. The Penguins didn't get enough secondary goal scoring during the season......that was also their problem in the playoffs.

Then you look at the last piece I put there.......league scoring has gone up every year. The Penguins scoring 241 in 15/16 was actually a more impressive jump, because there were only 30 more goals scored across the league, and the Penguins scored 24 more goals from 14/15 to 15/16. So, just because the Penguins top 4 goal scorers had more output, doesn't necessarily mean it was tied to the players they had, or one player being dominate. The league scoring went up year over year, and so did the Penguins goals from their top 4 goal scorers.

The question was a bit snarky in purpose, but if you have a player that is regularly scoring on power plays, I think that's just as valuable as one that only scores even strength.

No way to show it, but I would guess a significant part of the dropoff last year had to do with fatigue from two consecutive runs the length of the playoffs plus a pretty vicious schedule with a lot of back-to-back games - many with travel in between.

I kind of figured it was a bit snarky, but held back my own snarkiness just in case. :wink: A goal is a goal, no matter if PP or ES. We know Hornqvist is valuable, but he typically will have the highest percentage of PP goals on the team, compared to ES goals. That's his bread and butter.

If you are talking about the overall 8 goal drop-off, or the part where the secondary scoring dried up, I think that is a big area where they missed Cullen and Kunitz. Cullen was playing 4C with 3C output. Kunitz was no longer a top 6 guy, but when you shoved him down the lineup, he outproduces guys like Simon and Kuhnhackl by a mile. That's why I'd like to see a scenario where Kuhnhackl is at best a 13th forward, and better wingers are acquired that push Hagelin and Rust down to the 4th line. If your 4th line is Hags-Sheahan-Rust, that's pretty damn deep.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby largegarlic on Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:50 pm

On the PP goal issue, I don't know if the numbers bear this out, but it sure seems like PPs decrease as the season goes on and moves into the playoffs. So, if you're getting 4 PPs/game in November and your PP is clicking at 25%, you're getting 1 PP goal/game. However, if it's the playoffs, and you're only getting 2 PPs/game, then even if you're still scoring on 25% on those, you're only getting 1 PP goal every other game. Looked at that way (and if PP chances really do go down), even-strength scoring ability would become more important as the season moves on.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby blurryhaze312 on Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:05 pm

LimerickPensFan wrote:The Letang in game 5 was a Letang that was not able to work out in the previous offseason. It affected his entire season.

If you see it again this coming season in any great amount (he always had a knack for stupid plays - he just did it more often this year), then call for getting rid of him.

You were still seeing the effects of his neck injury last season.


I keep seeing this argument. I don't disagree with it. However, my problem is that if this was truly the case, then why in the heck did he start game 1 of the season? Keep him on the sidelines to get the true off-season training program down before putting him back on the ice. If that was truly the case, he lost an entire really productive season en route to a chance at the 3-peat just to rush back out there because he was cleared to skate.

That's frustrating to me.

*Edit*
This situation is similar to the "Kessel didn't sit before the playoffs when he was probably banged up just to preserve his streak" possibility.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby Daniel on Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:07 pm

blurryhaze312 wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:The Letang in game 5 was a Letang that was not able to work out in the previous offseason. It affected his entire season.

If you see it again this coming season in any great amount (he always had a knack for stupid plays - he just did it more often this year), then call for getting rid of him.

You were still seeing the effects of his neck injury last season.


I keep seeing this argument. I don't disagree with it. However, my problem is that if this was truly the case, then why in the heck did he start game 1 of the season? Keep him on the sidelines to get the true off-season training program down before putting him back on the ice. If that was truly the case, he lost an entire really productive season en route to a chance at the 3-peat just to rush back out there because he was cleared to skate.

That's frustrating to me.

*Edit*
This situation is similar to the "Kessel didn't sit before the playoffs when he was probably banged up just to preserve his streak" possibility.


Here's the real question regarding the "Letang didn't workout last offseason".....how does that affect him going to help Dumoulin and creating an odd man rush from a 2 on 2? And in the playoffs no less?

His fitness was fine, skating, etc. It's the mental lapses that were the problem. Unless his workouts include "Hockey IQ improvement", I don't see how's it's relevant.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby LimerickPensFan on Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:37 am

Daniel wrote:
blurryhaze312 wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:The Letang in game 5 was a Letang that was not able to work out in the previous offseason. It affected his entire season.

If you see it again this coming season in any great amount (he always had a knack for stupid plays - he just did it more often this year), then call for getting rid of him.

You were still seeing the effects of his neck injury last season.


I keep seeing this argument. I don't disagree with it. However, my problem is that if this was truly the case, then why in the heck did he start game 1 of the season? Keep him on the sidelines to get the true off-season training program down before putting him back on the ice. If that was truly the case, he lost an entire really productive season en route to a chance at the 3-peat just to rush back out there because he was cleared to skate.

That's frustrating to me.

*Edit*
This situation is similar to the "Kessel didn't sit before the playoffs when he was probably banged up just to preserve his streak" possibility.


Here's the real question regarding the "Letang didn't workout last offseason".....how does that affect him going to help Dumoulin and creating an odd man rush from a 2 on 2? And in the playoffs no less?

His fitness was fine, skating, etc. It's the mental lapses that were the problem. Unless his workouts include "Hockey IQ improvement", I don't see how's it's relevant.

Okay, handle both of these arguments.

Professional athletes often come back before they're entirely ready. This happens in all sports. The problem with Letang here, though, is that he would have needed months to get back into game shape the way he normally is. In the interim, he was still better than whoever would have replaced him, so yes, he is hurting the team by not being there - even though he isn't his full self.

Mental lapses often come when the body isn't working right. I guarantee it's happened to you in the past. You're tired - you make mistakes. Honestly, I think part of the problem was coaching. Sullivan/Martin should have limited how much Letang was playing. I know that Rutherford has already talked this offseason about how to take some of the load off of the first pair - meaning Letang, I'm guessing.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby Malkintent on Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:06 am

Wasn't there a fancy stat earlier in the year calling Letang and Dumoulin one of the best d pairs in the league?
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:11 am

Malkintent wrote:Wasn't there a fancy stat earlier in the year calling Letang and Dumoulin one of the best d pairs in the league?

It was probably looking at CorsiFor%. They had a great Corsi. It's why some of these numbers can't be looked at in a vacuum. You look a bit deeper, yes, they were out shot-chancing their opponents by a wide margin, but it wasn't leading to goals. They had more goals against them when they were on the ice than were scored by the Penguins.
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Re: Kessel trade thread

Postby blurryhaze312 on Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:16 am

LimerickPensFan wrote:
Daniel wrote:
blurryhaze312 wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:The Letang in game 5 was a Letang that was not able to work out in the previous offseason. It affected his entire season.

If you see it again this coming season in any great amount (he always had a knack for stupid plays - he just did it more often this year), then call for getting rid of him.

You were still seeing the effects of his neck injury last season.


I keep seeing this argument. I don't disagree with it. However, my problem is that if this was truly the case, then why in the heck did he start game 1 of the season? Keep him on the sidelines to get the true off-season training program down before putting him back on the ice. If that was truly the case, he lost an entire really productive season en route to a chance at the 3-peat just to rush back out there because he was cleared to skate.

That's frustrating to me.

*Edit*
This situation is similar to the "Kessel didn't sit before the playoffs when he was probably banged up just to preserve his streak" possibility.


Here's the real question regarding the "Letang didn't workout last offseason".....how does that affect him going to help Dumoulin and creating an odd man rush from a 2 on 2? And in the playoffs no less?

His fitness was fine, skating, etc. It's the mental lapses that were the problem. Unless his workouts include "Hockey IQ improvement", I don't see how's it's relevant.

Okay, handle both of these arguments.

Professional athletes often come back before they're entirely ready. This happens in all sports. The problem with Letang here, though, is that he would have needed months to get back into game shape the way he normally is. In the interim, he was still better than whoever would have replaced him, so yes, he is hurting the team by not being there - even though he isn't his full self.


Too true - athletes come back early all the time. But not many have major neck surgery.

So he comes back to games in December rather than October. One could argue that he was hurting the team in those first two months of the season more than had he not been in there. As we all know, plus/minus is a dubious stat that doesn't always tell the full picture...but by Dec 1 Letang was a -31 with 18 points and 1 goal. That is terrible. He certainly could have used those 2 months to recoup to his typical start of season status. He had neck surgery. It blows my mind that he didn't take the time needed to get back to his usual standard.

Ultimately he had a bad season all around because he was recovering from that major surgery. I'm not trying to bury him because I know that is likely the cause of all of this. I'm willing to be lenient...but with leniency comes the expectation that the right choice is made to get the best results. I simply think he should have taken more time to focus on his conditioning, range of neck motion, timing, etc...especially if that's the excuse that's (rightly, I feel) going to continue to be bandied about. I have some neck issues still after a minor fender-bender 4 years ago. I can't imagine the issues he probably still has after his surgery.

LimerickPensFan wrote:Mental lapses often come when the body isn't working right. I guarantee it's happened to you in the past. You're tired - you make mistakes. Honestly, I think part of the problem was coaching. Sullivan/Martin should have limited how much Letang was playing. I know that Rutherford has already talked this offseason about how to take some of the load off of the first pair - meaning Letang, I'm guessing.


All the more reason to come back when your body is working right. :wink:

I'll certainly agree with your comment about ice time, though. :thumb:
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