Schultz out 4 months

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Re: Schultz out 4 months

Postby Jim on Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:42 am

To digress... What would happen to Kunitz's cap hit if he retired? It's an over 35 contract, but it is 1 year (not multi) and under the bury amount.
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Re: Schultz out 4 months

Postby FLPensFan on Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:33 pm

Jim wrote:To digress... What would happen to Kunitz's cap hit if he retired? It's an over 35 contract, but it is 1 year (not multi) and under the bury amount.

Being that it is only a 1 year deal, it shouldn't fall into the 35 plus contract type, as those are listed as 35 years old AND multi-year deals.

The public CBA doesn't really give a good example of what would happen in Kunitz case. All their Illustrations/Examples on retirement talk about multi-year deals and players retiring before that multi-year deal expired. No example of what happens to a single year, over 35 player who retires mid-season.

With Kunitz contract, my guess is they would just waive him and send him to the AHL, burying the whole contract there while still paying him, or waive him for the purposes of terminating his contract. There is also a Voluntary Retired List, so that process could come into play but not a lot of details I could find on it.
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Re: Schultz out 4 months

Postby Jim on Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:27 pm

I had looked in the CBA but like you said, no comparable example.

I was thinking along the lines of a scenario where Kunitz is done, Chicago trades him to Pittsburgh (for fc's) so he retires as a Penguin. Maybe he plays one "goodbye" home game. Not suggesting that this would happen, just wondered what the cap implications would be.
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Re: Schultz out 4 months

Postby ville5 on Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:30 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Jim wrote:To digress... What would happen to Kunitz's cap hit if he retired? It's an over 35 contract, but it is 1 year (not multi) and under the bury amount.

Being that it is only a 1 year deal, it shouldn't fall into the 35 plus contract type, as those are listed as 35 years old AND multi-year deals.

The public CBA doesn't really give a good example of what would happen in Kunitz case. All their Illustrations/Examples on retirement talk about multi-year deals and players retiring before that multi-year deal expired. No example of what happens to a single year, over 35 player who retires mid-season.

With Kunitz contract, my guess is they would just waive him and send him to the AHL, burying the whole contract there while still paying him, or waive him for the purposes of terminating his contract. There is also a Voluntary Retired List, so that process could come into play but not a lot of details I could find on it.

They can't waive him. He has a NMC. Buyout would probably need to happen.
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Re: Schultz out 4 months

Postby BurghThing on Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:41 pm

So with Schultz out 4 months, and Sid not reporting yet, how long can they hang onto a playoff spot?
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Re: Schultz out 4 months

Postby Hatrick on Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:22 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:
Dutchpensfan wrote:How much do the pens save towards the cap with the injury?

Believe it or not, nothing.

He was placed on regular IR, not long-term IR. With regular IR, you get no cap relief.

Taylor Haase on DK's site has an explanation of why that was done, and it actually makes sense. It has to do with accruing space under the cap as the year goes on so that they have cap space at the trade deadline.

For anyone that's a member at DKPittsburghSports, the URL is here: https://www.dkpittsburghsports.com/2018/10/15/penguins-schultz-ltir-cap-relief/

I like Taylor, especially her work with Penguins prospects, but, that was a pretty poor explanation IMO. I understand the concept pretty well, and was confused by her explanation. About 3 paragraphs too many. The last two sentences of were the most important. Here's a different explanation for those that don't have the DK subscription (and if you do and thought Taylor's explanation was fine, tell me that too):

- The salary cap is actually figured out on a daily basis.

- Any cap space left between the upper cap limit (79.5M this year) and your team's actual salary in AAV for the year is banked, available space.

- For simplicity, if the Penguins current cap hit was 79M, they would have 500K in cap space. There are 186 days in the NHL season, so divide 500K by 186, and that is how much extra cap space you bank per day, in this example $2,688 and some change.

- When a player goes on injured reserve, their cap hit still counts against the team.

- When a player goes on LTIR, their cap hit still counts, but you get cap relief relative to that players salary and the days remaining in the season. The team would get a portion of Schultz salary available to use on another player, based on the number of days left in the season. Schultz cap hit is 5.5M, and today is day 14 of the season. In 186 day season, Schultz 5.5M contract breaks down to $29,569 and change per day (5.5M divided by 186). Since 14 days have already passed, we need to see how much of Schultz 5.5M contract is actually remaining. 186-14 is 172. Take his salary per day, $29,569, times number of days left in the season, 172. That comes out to 5.086M in LTIR space.

- The big issue here is, when you exceed the cap due to LTIR cap relief, you are no longer banking cap space. This is why it is in the Penguins best interest to keep him on regular IR as long as they can. If another injury occurs where a player needs to be recalled, at that point, the Penguins will likely need to put Schultz on LTIR. But for an extra day, extra week, or an extra month, that is extra days of banking extra cap space for later in the season.

what if they dont exceed the cap with LTIR? or is no matter what it LTIR doesn't help out the bankable space so the amount for calling somebody up even if it doesn't put them over would allow them to bank alittle space but less than they can with him on normal IR. So the way to maximize the space they are banking is by to keep him on normal IR and avoid calling somebody else up?
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Re: Schultz out 4 months

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:14 am

Hatrick wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:
Dutchpensfan wrote:How much do the pens save towards the cap with the injury?

Believe it or not, nothing.

He was placed on regular IR, not long-term IR. With regular IR, you get no cap relief.

Taylor Haase on DK's site has an explanation of why that was done, and it actually makes sense. It has to do with accruing space under the cap as the year goes on so that they have cap space at the trade deadline.

For anyone that's a member at DKPittsburghSports, the URL is here: https://www.dkpittsburghsports.com/2018/10/15/penguins-schultz-ltir-cap-relief/

I like Taylor, especially her work with Penguins prospects, but, that was a pretty poor explanation IMO. I understand the concept pretty well, and was confused by her explanation. About 3 paragraphs too many. The last two sentences of were the most important. Here's a different explanation for those that don't have the DK subscription (and if you do and thought Taylor's explanation was fine, tell me that too):

- The salary cap is actually figured out on a daily basis.

- Any cap space left between the upper cap limit (79.5M this year) and your team's actual salary in AAV for the year is banked, available space.

- For simplicity, if the Penguins current cap hit was 79M, they would have 500K in cap space. There are 186 days in the NHL season, so divide 500K by 186, and that is how much extra cap space you bank per day, in this example $2,688 and some change.

- When a player goes on injured reserve, their cap hit still counts against the team.

- When a player goes on LTIR, their cap hit still counts, but you get cap relief relative to that players salary and the days remaining in the season. The team would get a portion of Schultz salary available to use on another player, based on the number of days left in the season. Schultz cap hit is 5.5M, and today is day 14 of the season. In 186 day season, Schultz 5.5M contract breaks down to $29,569 and change per day (5.5M divided by 186). Since 14 days have already passed, we need to see how much of Schultz 5.5M contract is actually remaining. 186-14 is 172. Take his salary per day, $29,569, times number of days left in the season, 172. That comes out to 5.086M in LTIR space.

- The big issue here is, when you exceed the cap due to LTIR cap relief, you are no longer banking cap space. This is why it is in the Penguins best interest to keep him on regular IR as long as they can. If another injury occurs where a player needs to be recalled, at that point, the Penguins will likely need to put Schultz on LTIR. But for an extra day, extra week, or an extra month, that is extra days of banking extra cap space for later in the season.

what if they dont exceed the cap with LTIR? or is no matter what it LTIR doesn't help out the bankable space so the amount for calling somebody up even if it doesn't put them over would allow them to bank alittle space but less than they can with him on normal IR. So the way to maximize the space they are banking is by to keep him on normal IR and avoid calling somebody else up?

I ALMOST wrote another paragraph with an example using a team like Carolina, who is 15M away from the cap ceiling.

To answer the question, LTIR only "hurts" the team in terms of banking cap space if the temporary cap increase from LTIR puts you over the cap ceiling. I'll use Carolina as an example, and round some numbers to make it easier. Cap is 79.5M. Carolina is roughly 15M under the cap today, at 64.5M. Dougie Hamilton gets hurt. For ease of the example, let's say his salary/AAV is 5M (actually it is 5.75M). Hamilton gets hurt, on day 1 of the season (cutting out all the days left in the season math here), and is placed on LTIR. Hamilton's cap hit still counts against Carolina, but, by using LTIR, they get a temporary 5M in extra cap space to replace Hamilton. That brings their cap hit up to 69.5M, still 10M under the cap, so, they are still banking that 10M worth of space (broken down into a daily amount) because Hamilton's LTIR temporary cap did not put them over the cap limit.

So in the Penguins space, they are right up against the cap, with a little over 700K in space left. That space gets divided by days left in the season, and they bank that available space for later. If they put Schultz on LTIR, adding another 5.5M, they would be over the cap and no longer bank space.

So, the main takeaway here is if you EXCEED the cap due to temporary LTIR cap space, you no longer bank cap space. If you are under the cap ceiling after placing a player(s) on LTIR, then you still bank the different between your total cap hit (normal cap plus LTIR allowance).
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Re: Schultz out 4 months

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:55 am

And now, it is all a bit moot, as CapFriendly reports that the Penguins officially placed Schultz on LTIR yesterday. However, just because he is on LTIR doesn't mean they are no longer banking cap space (confused yet....you should be). The Penguins will only stop banking space if they use some of that LTIR temporary space. For now, with no extra player recalled or taking on that LTIR cap space, the Penguins continue to bank space.
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Re: Schultz out 4 months

Postby Jim on Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:23 am

ville5 wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Jim wrote:To digress... What would happen to Kunitz's cap hit if he retired? It's an over 35 contract, but it is 1 year (not multi) and under the bury amount.

Being that it is only a 1 year deal, it shouldn't fall into the 35 plus contract type, as those are listed as 35 years old AND multi-year deals.

The public CBA doesn't really give a good example of what would happen in Kunitz case. All their Illustrations/Examples on retirement talk about multi-year deals and players retiring before that multi-year deal expired. No example of what happens to a single year, over 35 player who retires mid-season.

With Kunitz contract, my guess is they would just waive him and send him to the AHL, burying the whole contract there while still paying him, or waive him for the purposes of terminating his contract. There is also a Voluntary Retired List, so that process could come into play but not a lot of details I could find on it.

They can't waive him. He has a NMC. Buyout would probably need to happen.


He would have to waive that for the original trade, it would just be a hard waive.
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