Pens Roster 20-21 Based on some initial moves

[Jim]

It would be tough decision. If he wins another cup (starting most games), then they would pay him. 3x cup winning goalie at 26 years old. only 12 goalies in nhl history with more cups. They couldn't pass that up...imo.

Yeah, trade value gold.

[thehockeyguru]

Murray could prove me wrong but I think his value already peaked. Remember when Calgary offered Dougie Hamilton?

Pens now wont get anything close to that for Murray.

[Daniel]

Murray could prove me wrong but I think his value already peaked. Remember when Calgary offered Dougie Hamilton?

Pens now wont get anything close to that for Murray.

I think someone making an offer and JR having Murray available for a trade are two different things. Calgary made an offer when Murray’s value was high but it was an offer for a player not available. Not saying the Pens will get a better offer or a worse offer, just pointing out that making a player available vs an unsolicited offer might be unrelated in terms of value. Also, for someone who is supposed to be a good player, Hamilton has been available and traded twice in a short career. Why did Calgary want to give up on him so soon (Honestly don’t remember, lol)?

I can see 2-3 teams at the very least making an offer. Granted it might be competing crap offers but I can see 2-3 assets coming the Pens ways. Maybe something along the line of the Kessel trade with a little improvement because of Murray’s age and playoff pedigree. Young ex 1st round pick who needs a change of scenery, younger 1st round pick as the carrot, and moving parts to make the cap work.

[thehockeyguru]

Murray could prove me wrong but I think his value already peaked. Remember when Calgary offered Dougie Hamilton?

Pens now wont get anything close to that for Murray.

I think someone making an offer and JR having Murray available for a trade are two different things. Calgary made an offer when Murray’s value was high but it was an offer for a player not available. Not saying the Pens will get a better offer or a worse offer, just pointing out that making a player available vs an unsolicited offer might be unrelated in terms of value. Also, for someone who is supposed to be a good player, Hamilton has been available and traded twice in a short career. Why did Calgary want to give up on him so soon (Honestly don’t remember, lol)?

I can see 2-3 teams at the very least making an offer. Granted it might be competing crap offers but I can see 2-3 assets coming the Pens ways. Maybe something along the line of the Kessel trade with a little improvement because of Murray’s age and playoff pedigree. Young ex 1st round pick who needs a change of scenery, younger 1st round pick as the carrot, and moving parts to make the cap work.

It stings because Hamilton is playing like an All Star and hes a RHD. Something we really need.

[Hatrick]

It would be tough decision. If he wins another cup (starting most games), then they would pay him. 3x cup winning goalie at 26 years old. only 12 goalies in nhl history with more cups. They couldn't pass that up...imo.

if he wins a third cup and he is somehow dominant on the run(I don't think that scenario happens but if it does) his asking price that is already likely too steep, will go to zero chance. At 6million it would be detrimental to the team to keep him, at 8.5million they would have to get rid of abunch of pricey depth pieces (most likely at least 4 people from horni, bjugstad, Pettersson, Johnson, Simon since they aren't huge pieces but have/would have cap hits well above league minimum, plus get rid of Jarry )and not replace any of them through anybody making much more than the minimum. I would rather field a full team in front of Jarry than half a team in front of Murray even if he has three cups.

[pens_CT]

Murray could prove me wrong but I think his value already peaked. Remember when Calgary offered Dougie Hamilton?

Pens now wont get anything close to that for Murray.

I think someone making an offer and JR having Murray available for a trade are two different things. Calgary made an offer when Murray’s value was high but it was an offer for a player not available. Not saying the Pens will get a better offer or a worse offer, just pointing out that making a player available vs an unsolicited offer might be unrelated in terms of value. Also, for someone who is supposed to be a good player, Hamilton has been available and traded twice in a short career. Why did Calgary want to give up on him so soon (Honestly don’t remember, lol)?

I can see 2-3 teams at the very least making an offer. Granted it might be competing crap offers but I can see 2-3 assets coming the Pens ways. Maybe something along the line of the Kessel trade with a little improvement because of Murray’s age and playoff pedigree. Young ex 1st round pick who needs a change of scenery, younger 1st round pick as the carrot, and moving parts to make the cap work.

It stings because Hamilton is playing like an All Star and hes a RHD. Something we really need.

Unfortunately its not as simple as taking Murray off the roster and adding Hamilton. If Murray would have been traded, then they would have kept MAF and his next contract would of been north of his 5.75 million deal he had with the Pens. How would they have fit that under the cap? Who would have been sacrificed for the expansion draft in that case? Do we really need another defensemen in Hamilton making almost 6 million per season?

They made the best decision at the time based on the information that was available. Doesn't make sense to second guess it in 2020.

[DelPen]

So the questions on goaltending are 1) how much is too much to pay Murray, I say no more than $5.5 million and don’t care about term, 2) who will have more trade value considering both are free agents between Murray and Jarry, it might be Jarry since he should be cheaper and 3) who does management like more, it’s clearly Murray.

I’m really hoping Murray rebounds to his form before his dad died, he just hasn’t been the same since, maybe after his kid is born that will snap him out of whatever funk he’s in. I also would not be surprised to see him go max term for a little less, he seems like the guy who appreciates the loyalty and if we can get a hometown discount for the cap which we need for the next few years he can do that. Front loaded as much as possible of course but is there a way to do 8 years/$45 million? Is that good for both sides?

[FLPensFan]

So the questions on goaltending are 1) how much is too much to pay Murray, I say no more than $5.5 million and don’t care about term, 2) who will have more trade value considering both are free agents between Murray and Jarry, it might be Jarry since he should be cheaper and 3) who does management like more, it’s clearly Murray.

I’m really hoping Murray rebounds to his form before his dad died, he just hasn’t been the same since, maybe after his kid is born that will snap him out of whatever funk he’s in. I also would not be surprised to see him go max term for a little less, he seems like the guy who appreciates the loyalty and if we can get a hometown discount for the cap which we need for the next few years he can do that. Front loaded as much as possible of course but is there a way to do 8 years/$45 million? Is that good for both sides?

1) I'd be willing to go 6M. I think with his early numbers and 2 Cups, he deserves at least Gibson money.
2) Jarry is cheaper, but, he still has considerable less games under his belt. Murray has 3 times as many NHL regular season games played. Jarry also has ZERO playoff games. I still think Murray would yield the larger return from an NHL team.
3) I'm not certain there is a clear choice here. Yes Murray is likely going to be named the starter, but with his experience, that should be expected. I think he'll have a short leash.

I also really think you have to add a #4 to the equation which is, how much does signing Murray alter the Penguins roster makeup? I've shown that it can work by simply trading or buying out Bjugstad, if Murray gets 6M a year....but it still leaves you with Ruhwedel & Johnson (with POJ in the mix) as the 3rd pairing defense. They can fix that at the trade deadline maybe, but, I really like the overall makeup of this team, especially up front. Unless there are major injuries, I don't see the Penguins needing to do much at the trade deadline next season....if they traded Murray and got a solid young 3rd pairing defenseman who is good enough to play 2nd pairing...

Imagine for a minute that Murray for Jokiharju plus a 2nd/3rd round pick was the deal, and this is the 20-21 opening day lineup.

Guentzel-Crosby-Simon
Zucker-Malkin-Rust
Poulin-McCann-Hornqvist
ZAR-Blueger-Tanev
xLafferty, Rodrigues, Angello

Dumo-Letang
Pettersson-Marino
POJ-Jokiharju
xJohnson, Ruhwedel

Jarry
DeSmith

I just don't really see any holes there. You maybe worry about the experience of the 3rd pairing, how Jarry will hold up as the true #1, can McCann be 3C, and how Simon/Poulin work but, I think all of those things are relatively minor. Going into camp with a roster like that would give me strong hope that there wouldn't be a need to consider trading our 1st round pick.

Further, look at that young defense. Pettersson(24), Marino(23), POJ(21), Jokiharju(21). Rutherford had mentioned a few weeks ago that he truly believes Marino can be the eventualy #1 defenseman on this team. In 3 years when Letang's contract is up, you could have Marino on top pair, Jokiharju slides up to 2nd pairing, and then you look for another veteran RD for 3rd pairing.

The right return for Murray could really set this team up for awhile.

[dark_forces]

So the questions on goaltending are 1) how much is too much to pay Murray, I say no more than $5.5 million and don’t care about term, 2) who will have more trade value considering both are free agents between Murray and Jarry, it might be Jarry since he should be cheaper and 3) who does management like more, it’s clearly Murray.

I’m really hoping Murray rebounds to his form before his dad died, he just hasn’t been the same since, maybe after his kid is born that will snap him out of whatever funk he’s in. I also would not be surprised to see him go max term for a little less, he seems like the guy who appreciates the loyalty and if we can get a hometown discount for the cap which we need for the next few years he can do that. Front loaded as much as possible of course but is there a way to do 8 years/$45 million? Is that good for both sides?

1) I'd be willing to go 6M. I think with his early numbers and 2 Cups, he deserves at least Gibson money.
2) Jarry is cheaper, but, he still has considerable less games under his belt. Murray has 3 times as many NHL regular season games played. Jarry also has ZERO playoff games. I still think Murray would yield the larger return from an NHL team.
3) I'm not certain there is a clear choice here. Yes Murray is likely going to be named the starter, but with his experience, that should be expected. I think he'll have a short leash.

I also really think you have to add a #4 to the equation which is, how much does signing Murray alter the Penguins roster makeup? I've shown that it can work by simply trading or buying out Bjugstad, if Murray gets 6M a year....but it still leaves you with Ruhwedel & Johnson (with POJ in the mix) as the 3rd pairing defense. They can fix that at the trade deadline maybe, but, I really like the overall makeup of this team, especially up front. Unless there are major injuries, I don't see the Penguins needing to do much at the trade deadline next season....if they traded Murray and got a solid young 3rd pairing defenseman who is good enough to play 2nd pairing...

Imagine for a minute that Murray for Jokiharju plus a 2nd/3rd round pick was the deal, and this is the 20-21 opening day lineup.

Guentzel-Crosby-Simon
Zucker-Malkin-Rust
Poulin-McCann-Hornqvist
ZAR-Blueger-Tanev
xLafferty, Rodrigues, Angello

Dumo-Letang
Pettersson-Marino
POJ-Jokiharju
xJohnson, Ruhwedel

Jarry
DeSmith

I just don't really see any holes there. You maybe worry about the experience of the 3rd pairing, how Jarry will hold up as the true #1, can McCann be 3C, and how Simon/Poulin work but, I think all of those things are relatively minor. Going into camp with a roster like that would give me strong hope that there wouldn't be a need to consider trading our 1st round pick.

Further, look at that young defense. Pettersson(24), Marino(23), POJ(21), Jokiharju(21). Rutherford had mentioned a few weeks ago that he truly believes Marino can be the eventualy #1 defenseman on this team. In 3 years when Letang's contract is up, you could have Marino on top pair, Jokiharju slides up to 2nd pairing, and then you look for another veteran RD for 3rd pairing.

The right return for Murray could really set this team up for awhile.

I like your buffalo trade proposal. I would insist on a second rounder as part of the return as we need a semi early pick in the next draft.

[longtimefan]

Goalie #1- Save %- 92.5 GAA- 2.32 Playoff- 92.8/1.95
Goalie #2- Save %- 90.9 GAA- 2.82 Playoff- 90.7/2.58

We're always talking about small sample sizes. These aren't particularly small, and they are very concerning. Goalie #1 is Murray during the 2 Cup runs. The last Cup was won more than 3 years ago. He looked like he was on the cusp of possibly a legendary career. Goalie #2 is Murray in the last three years. This year is TBD for the playoffs. That goalie has also lost his last six playoff games. This season, among goalies who have played in at least 25 games, he's 48th in SP%.

Before the season, JR made it clear negotiations would have to wait. That tells me they weren't all in on Murray. They had some concerns, and they wanted to see if he could answer them. His performance hasn't been inspiring. He's never played more than 50 games in a season. Early on, he couldn't stay healthy. Then he couldn't keep his net each of the last two seasons. Before you give him $6M, or sign him for 8 years, you have to ask yourself if you're satisfied with his work since that last Cup. Three years is not a slump. It's a concern.

As fans, we miss some things. Like how Sully made a major mistake by scratching JJ against the Isles after he had played all 82 games. Many fans agreed. But it didn't go over well in the locker room. Sully's timing was way off. Murray was a big part of two cup wins with a lot of these guys. Do you remember the reaction of the players when he was booed at home against Boston? They kept pointing to the two cups. You respect that. They respect that. It's the major reason the net needs to be his to start. There is a human element in the dynamics.

From there, who knows. He could go on and win his 3rd cup in five years. Or he could lose the net before the first game ends. Then they'll have to make a decision. With a flat cap, it's likely they'll choose Jarry moving forward regardless. Murray is playing for a contract, here or elsewhere. If you look at his last three seasons, he has a lot to prove.

[pens_CT]

Goalie #1- Save %- 92.5 GAA- 2.32 Playoff- 92.8/1.95
Goalie #2- Save %- 90.9 GAA- 2.82 Playoff- 90.7/2.58

We're always talking about small sample sizes. These aren't particularly small, and they are very concerning. Goalie #1 is Murray during the 2 Cup runs. The last Cup was won more than 3 years ago. He looked like he was on the cusp of possibly a legendary career. Goalie #2 is Murray in the last three years. This year is TBD for the playoffs. That goalie has also lost his last six playoff games. This season, among goalies who have played in at least 25 games, he's 48th in SP%.

Before the season, JR made it clear negotiations would have to wait. That tells me they weren't all in on Murray. They had some concerns, and they wanted to see if he could answer them. His performance hasn't been inspiring. He's never played more than 50 games in a season. Early on, he couldn't stay healthy. Then he couldn't keep his net each of the last two seasons. Before you give him $6M, or sign him for 8 years, you have to ask yourself if you're satisfied with his work since that last Cup. Three years is not a slump. It's a concern.

As fans, we miss some things. Like how Sully made a major mistake by scratching JJ against the Isles after he had played all 82 games. Many fans agreed. But it didn't go over well in the locker room. Sully's timing was way off. Murray was a big part of two cup wins with a lot of these guys. Do you remember the reaction of the players when he was booed at home against Boston? They kept pointing to the two cups. You respect that. They respect that. It's the major reason the net needs to be his to start. There is a human element in the dynamics.

From there, who knows. He could go on and win his 3rd cup in five years. Or he could lose the net before the first game ends. Then they'll have to make a decision. With a flat cap, it's likely they'll choose Jarry moving forward regardless. Murray is playing for a contract, here or elsewhere. If you look at his last three seasons, he has a lot to prove.

There's no doubt that Murray's play the last couple of years has fallen off. In general I think the concept of paying a goalie big dollars hasn't proven to be the best move. You just have to look at the Rangers and Lundqvist. Montreal and Price, Florida and Bobrovsky to see this isn't the best use of cap space if your objective is to win a cup. If Tampa doesn't win it this year you can add them to the list as Vasilevskiy starts making 9.5 mil per season, while his team will be in cap hell as a result.

[100565]

I don't think any goalie currently playing in NHL is worth more than $8.5mil.

Murray's trade value is extremely difficult to guess. It depends on his contract. If he is demanding $7mil long term, I think his trade value is relatively not much (2nd and 3rd round). If he is cool with signing a 2year, $9mil contract ($4.5mil cap), then I think his return would be much better..like the trade FLPF suggested. It also will be impacted by his playoff performance; 3 Cups in 5 playoffs cannot be over-looked. It also depends on how this shorten offseason progresses; will we see a flurry of activity or not much movement?

[Cow_Master66]

Has the NHL given any details regarding the 2021 regular season? Is it going to be condensed? Assuming it is, backup goalies should have an elevated value next season which could alter things as well. It could even alter this teams desire to lose Murray.

[100565]

Has the NHL given any details regarding the 2021 regular season? Is it going to be condensed? Assuming it is, backup goalies should have an elevated value next season which could alter things as well. It could even alter this teams desire to lose Murray.

Nothing for certain. They want to start Dec 1. It seems as though they are hoping for full 82 games.

I think the AHL season (or not) could force some rule changes. AHL, IMO, cannot play without fans..unless owners are willing to take a big economic hit. If no AHL, I would think the NHL would make a practice squad like NFL.

I agree, a condensed season should cause more games played for backup goalies.

[longtimefan]

Has the NHL given any details regarding the 2021 regular season? Is it going to be condensed? Assuming it is, backup goalies should have an elevated value next season which could alter things as well. It could even alter this teams desire to lose Murray.

Nothing for certain. They want to start Dec 1. It seems as though they are hoping for full 82 games.

I think the AHL season (or not) could force some rule changes. AHL, IMO, cannot play without fans..unless owners are willing to take a big economic hit. If no AHL, I would think the NHL would make a practice squad like NFL.

I agree, a condensed season should cause more games played for backup goalies.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/289 ... -21-season

According to NHL.com's Dan Rosen, Bettman said the following regarding next season: "We are planning a full 20-21 season. ... If we run a little later than usual that will be one of the consequences."

The article was dated July 11th. It doesn't mean it's going to be overly condensed. December 1st puts them 2 months behind schedule, although there's been some talk about moving the start of the season to November permanently. Some franchises struggle through that first month, and so do season ticket holders. The trade off is hockey ends later. That's the question. How far can you push it? Regardless, if you start December 1st and don't condense, you'd expect the Finals to end in the first half of August. Then bring them back in November. The season then would go to the first half of July. Is that too late? I like the idea, but if you're dead set against it, you do the same thing the next season, end in July and start in October. Gradually get back to the norm.

[longtimefan]

Has the NHL given any details regarding the 2021 regular season? Is it going to be condensed? Assuming it is, backup goalies should have an elevated value next season which could alter things as well. It could even alter this teams desire to lose Murray.

Nothing for certain. They want to start Dec 1. It seems as though they are hoping for full 82 games.

I think the AHL season (or not) could force some rule changes. AHL, IMO, cannot play without fans..unless owners are willing to take a big economic hit. If no AHL, I would think the NHL would make a practice squad like NFL.

I agree, a condensed season should cause more games played for backup goalies.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/289 ... -21-season

According to NHL.com's Dan Rosen, Bettman said the following regarding next season: "We are planning a full 20-21 season. ... If we run a little later than usual that will be one of the consequences."

The article was dated July 11th. It doesn't mean it's going to be overly condensed. December 1st puts them 2 months behind schedule, although there's been some talk about moving the start of the season to November permanently. Some franchises struggle through that first month, and so do season ticket holders. The trade off is hockey ends later. That's the question. How far can you push it? Regardless, if you start December 1st and don't condense, you'd expect the Finals to end in the first half of August. Then bring them back in November. The season then would go to the first half of July. Is that too late? I like the idea, but if you're dead set against it, you do the same thing the next season, end in July and start in October. Gradually get back to the norm.

[thehockeyguru]

It seems like the consensus is McCann will be back next season at 3C but man he's been unproductive. 0 goals in his last 24 games or something like that. I don't know how you pay him 3.5M a season.

There are 3 glaring weaknesses with this team that need addressed

The PP has never replaced Kessel
The 3rd line doesn't have any chemistry
JJ paired with anyone drags the bottom pairing down.

[pens_CT]

It seems like the consensus is McCann will be back next season at 3C but man he's been unproductive. 0 goals in his last 24 games or something like that. I don't know how you pay him 3.5M a season.

There are 3 glaring weaknesses with this team that need addressed

The PP has never replaced Kessel
The 3rd line doesn't have any chemistry
JJ paired with anyone drags the bottom pairing down.

I don't see McCann as the 3C or a center in general. Doesn't distribute the puck well enough, and isn't a good defensive player in my opinion. If he isn't scoring he brings nothing to this team, but they probably need to re-sign him because who else do you have to play that position unless they believe Rodriques is the answer at Center and they leave McCann at wing.

[Pensfan4life8771]

https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/1817411

Thoughts on this if we happen to lose to Montreal and get the 1st overall pick??

[FLPensFan]

https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/1817411

Thoughts on this if we happen to lose to Montreal and get the 1st overall pick??

I'm not sure what is going on with those trades, but....no.
If Murray can only get Filip Gustavsson in return straight up in a trade......

[Pensfan4life8771]

Well Murray looked so bad last game in my opinion....and now he is starting game 2 so we will lose this series quick.

[Pensfan4life8771]

Also I don't hate Murray I just think right now he looks a lot like Fluery a la 2010 - 2012 playoffs. Jarry has been the more steady guy this year and his ability to play puck would help likes of JJ.

[pens_CT]

Well Murray looked so bad last game in my opinion....and now he is starting game 2 so we will lose this series quick.

If we lose this series it will be for reasons beyond the goaltending. If you give up 2 goals in regulation like happened in game 1 there should be enough offense on this team to overcome that. If there isn't then we are greatly overpaying the forwards on this team and that includes 87 and 71.

[thehockeyguru]

It seems like the consensus is McCann will be back next season at 3C but man he's been unproductive. 0 goals in his last 24 games or something like that. I don't know how you pay him 3.5M a season.

There are 3 glaring weaknesses with this team that need addressed

The PP has never replaced Kessel
The 3rd line doesn't have any chemistry
JJ paired with anyone drags the bottom pairing down.

I don't see McCann as the 3C or a center in general. Doesn't distribute the puck well enough, and isn't a good defensive player in my opinion. If he isn't scoring he brings nothing to this team, but they probably need to re-sign him because who else do you have to play that position unless they believe Rodriques is the answer at Center and they leave McCann at wing.

If Rodriques is the answer I question why he can't earn a spot right now?

I would rather play Lafferty there. If I'm Sullivan my 3rd line is McCann Lafferty Hornqvist. I'd sit Marleau tonight.

[pens_CT]

It seems like the consensus is McCann will be back next season at 3C but man he's been unproductive. 0 goals in his last 24 games or something like that. I don't know how you pay him 3.5M a season.

There are 3 glaring weaknesses with this team that need addressed

The PP has never replaced Kessel
The 3rd line doesn't have any chemistry
JJ paired with anyone drags the bottom pairing down.

I don't see McCann as the 3C or a center in general. Doesn't distribute the puck well enough, and isn't a good defensive player in my opinion. If he isn't scoring he brings nothing to this team, but they probably need to re-sign him because who else do you have to play that position unless they believe Rodriques is the answer at Center and they leave McCann at wing.

If Rodriques is the answer I question why he can't earn a spot right now?

I would rather play Lafferty there. If I'm Sullivan my 3rd line is McCann Lafferty Hornqvist. I'd sit Marleau tonight.

I don't see Lafferty as a Center, he is better at Wing. I would put Rodriques between McCann and Hornqvist. I'd put Lafferty on the 4th line in place of ZAR. Not sure what ZAR brings to the lineup, get someone with speed and hitting ability on the 4th line.