SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby pens_CT on Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:42 pm

largegarlic wrote:
Antonio wrote:I'm a lot more excited about a 1 in 8 chance of the top pick than i am about losing in the next round.

What happens if we don't win it? Anyone know how the draft position for us would be determined?


Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think if we don't win it, we get kicked back to 15, since we'd have the highest point total of the eliminated teams.


You are absolutely correct. It's first overall or 15th. I thought I read a Rutherford quote (maybe to Yohe), that they would obviously keep the first overall but it was the 15th pick they might still give it to Minnesota as part of the Zucker deal. I guess you can look at it two ways either the feels that pick doesn't give them a sure NHL player or its Rutherford just saying s**t as he is want to do.
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby lemieuxReturns on Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:52 pm

Will they do the lottery for the 1st in reverse order for suspense like they did for the Crosby lottery? I remember sitting at my computer as they slowly eliminated teams and could not believe it when it was down to the Pens and Ducks.
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby pens_CT on Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:09 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:Will they do the lottery for the 1st in reverse order for suspense like they did for the Crosby lottery? I remember sitting at my computer as they slowly eliminated teams and could not believe it when it was down to the Pens and Ducks.


The only lottery is who picks 1st, everyone else slots in based on their record, there is no moving up or down among the rest of the teams. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Penspal on Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:20 pm

Is there anyone who hasn't given up on this team yet? Outside of Penny and I that is?

I get it, I do, they have under performed etc.
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby SubtropicalPenguin on Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:25 pm

Penspal wrote:Is there anyone who hasn't given up on this team yet? Outside of Penny and I that is?

I get it, I do, they have under performed etc.


I still expect the pens to win the series. There's no reason to think this team can't beat Montreal two games in a row. My Stanley Cup hopes, though, are admittedly not very high.
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby pens_CT on Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:25 pm

pens_CT wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:Will they do the lottery for the 1st in reverse order for suspense like they did for the Crosby lottery? I remember sitting at my computer as they slowly eliminated teams and could not believe it when it was down to the Pens and Ducks.


The only lottery is who picks 1st, everyone else slots in based on their record, there is no moving up or down among the rest of the teams. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.


Just looking at NHL.com website, the drawing has eight balls one per team, each ball will have the team logo on it. So it starts at 6 pm on Monday and most of the program will be filler because one drawing won't take long. Time to get that four leaf clover from Craig Patrick or you need someone to pull a Nick Perry job on the balls.
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:36 pm

pens_CT wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:Will they do the lottery for the 1st in reverse order for suspense like they did for the Crosby lottery? I remember sitting at my computer as they slowly eliminated teams and could not believe it when it was down to the Pens and Ducks.


The only lottery is who picks 1st, everyone else slots in based on their record, there is no moving up or down among the rest of the teams. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.


Just looking at NHL.com website, the drawing has eight balls one per team, each ball will have the team logo on it. So it starts at 6 pm on Monday and most of the program will be filler because one drawing won't take long. Time to get that four leaf clover from Craig Patrick or you need someone to pull a Nick Perry job on the balls.


So 1 ball is removed and that team is the winner?

I could see the NHL doing something stupid like selecting 7 balls and the last ball left is the "winner"
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby pens_CT on Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:45 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:Will they do the lottery for the 1st in reverse order for suspense like they did for the Crosby lottery? I remember sitting at my computer as they slowly eliminated teams and could not believe it when it was down to the Pens and Ducks.


The only lottery is who picks 1st, everyone else slots in based on their record, there is no moving up or down among the rest of the teams. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.


Just looking at NHL.com website, the drawing has eight balls one per team, each ball will have the team logo on it. So it starts at 6 pm on Monday and most of the program will be filler because one drawing won't take long. Time to get that four leaf clover from Craig Patrick or you need someone to pull a Nick Perry job on the balls.


So 1 ball is removed and that team is the winner?

I could see the NHL doing something stupid like selecting 7 balls and the last ball left is the "winner"


All it says is eight balls in the machine, one per team. I assumed it would be one draw and the team selected wins. If the odds are 12.5 percent (1 in 8) i think that's the way it would have to happen.
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Southern Fan on Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:58 pm

Penspal wrote:Is there anyone who hasn't given up on this team yet? Outside of Penny and I that is?

I get it, I do, they have under performed etc.


I can remember back in the stone ages when the Islanders were seconds away from a bad Pens team beating them in a best of 5 series, but they pulled it out And went on to win the Cup. So hope springs eternal until the final buzzer.
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby 100565 on Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:01 pm

I cannot look into now, but there has to more to it that that. 8 teams? 15 teams do not make the final 16 (normal playoffs). Detroit has to have the greatest chance at number 1.

(nevermind) I made time. Detroit is picking 4th. Goofy way to do the draft.
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby lemieuxReturns on Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:04 pm

pens_CT wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:Will they do the lottery for the 1st in reverse order for suspense like they did for the Crosby lottery? I remember sitting at my computer as they slowly eliminated teams and could not believe it when it was down to the Pens and Ducks.


The only lottery is who picks 1st, everyone else slots in based on their record, there is no moving up or down among the rest of the teams. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.


Just looking at NHL.com website, the drawing has eight balls one per team, each ball will have the team logo on it. So it starts at 6 pm on Monday and most of the program will be filler because one drawing won't take long. Time to get that four leaf clover from Craig Patrick or you need someone to pull a Nick Perry job on the balls.


So 1 ball is removed and that team is the winner?

I could see the NHL doing something stupid like selecting 7 balls and the last ball left is the "winner"


All it says is eight balls in the machine, one per team. I assumed it would be one draw and the team selected wins. If the odds are 12.5 percent (1 in 8) i think that's the way it would have to happen.


Well maybe i am not remembering correctly, but did'nt they do the drawing on a video in the back room for Sid. And then they did the cards to eliminate teams.
So they could do the same... have people in a room with video to confirm the 1 ball drawn was X but then go in front of the camera and just eliminate teams....?
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Weegie on Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:04 pm

Penspal wrote:Is there anyone who hasn't given up on this team yet? Outside of Penny and I that is?

I get it, I do, they have under performed etc.


No, it's just you two left. :wink:

I like your enthusiasm and optimistic outlook but they just don't have it, just like last year's playoffs, they show moments of being a powerhouse on offense but they just aren't good enough in their own end, 2 goals last night scored down low because no one was smart enough to stay in front of the net and pick someone up, tie them up, lift their stick etc. Like someone else above said it is downright scary when Montreal is in our own end, you are just waiting for something bad to happen because it usually does.....and to have a 3 to 1 lead wasn't even good enough, they'd have to have about a 5-1 lead to seal it off because they just can't stop Montreal for some reason.

I'm sorry to be doom and gloom but I'm just being honest, been following this club since 1975 and you can tell when they have "it" and they don't, and this team sadly doesn't have it, there is just something missing, sometimes it is something emotional or mental, something you can't even see but can feel and sense, just like when you can feel and sense "this team is coming on, they're getting good" but that isn't them right now.

Again, I would gladly eat my words, but I don't think I'll have to..... :(
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby DelPen on Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:16 pm

Part of me says **** it and just lose if they are banking on winning the draft lottery and then making actual real changes of dumping the dead weight. But that’s not how this franchise operates. We will maybe see Sheary out for McCann while ignoring the two main reasons we are losing this series in Murray and Johnson.
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:17 pm

Southern Fan wrote:
Penspal wrote:Is there anyone who hasn't given up on this team yet? Outside of Penny and I that is?

I get it, I do, they have under performed etc.


I can remember back in the stone ages when the Islanders were seconds away from a bad Pens team beating them in a best of 5 series, but they pulled it out And went on to win the Cup. So hope springs eternal until the final buzzer.

Too much lip service from Sully for me to have faith.
Too many hollow words not backed up by player actions.

This team had the ability to be very good. They dont appear to have the desire....for the 2nd year in a row. I dont see the drive to win loose puck board battles. I dont see the desire to back check and play defense even if it means being completely gassed. There is no "give it your all" unless it involves offense or fancy plays.

This team should have been jacked getting a major weapon like Guentzel back for these playoffs. They had a layoff to rest and recover. For the most part, everyone but Sid's line up front has been flatter than a pancake.

Either this team continues to kid itself for another 2 years that it is a strong contender, or they blow it up....trade Malkin and Letang. Surround Sid with more pieces. Sid, Jake, Marino, and Jarry as your core with Poulin and POJ coming. This team cant keep 87, 71, and 58 as lifers and expect to be relevant in the playoffs. Crosby, because of his style, should be the one lifetime Penguin of that group.

Jettison Malkin, Letang, Murray, and Bjugstad and use the returns to build around the new core. Zucker and Rust are both good fits here as well.

The other option....you fire Sullivan and Rutherford, and bring in new management blood... who likely still has to blow up the roster.

No easy decisions.
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:26 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Southern Fan wrote:
Penspal wrote:Is there anyone who hasn't given up on this team yet? Outside of Penny and I that is?

I get it, I do, they have under performed etc.


I can remember back in the stone ages when the Islanders were seconds away from a bad Pens team beating them in a best of 5 series, but they pulled it out And went on to win the Cup. So hope springs eternal until the final buzzer.

Too much lip service from Sully for me to have faith.
Too many hollow words not backed up by player actions.

This team had the ability to be very good. They dont appear to have the desire....for the 2nd year in a row. I dont see the drive to win loose puck board battles. I dont see the desire to back check and play defense even if it means being completely gassed. There is no "give it your all" unless it involves offense or fancy plays.

This team should have been jacked getting a major weapon like Guentzel back for these playoffs. They had a layoff to rest and recover. For the most part, everyone but Sid's line up front has been flatter than a pancake.

Either this team continues to kid itself for another 2 years that it is a strong contender, or they blow it up....trade Malkin and Letang. Surround Sid with more pieces. Sid, Jake, Marino, and Jarry as your core with Poulin and POJ coming. This team cant keep 87, 71, and 58 as lifers and expect to be relevant in the playoffs. Crosby, because of his style, should be the one lifetime Penguin of that group.

Jettison Malkin, Letang, Murray, and Bjugstad and use the returns to build around the new core. Zucker and Rust are both good fits here as well.

The other option....you fire Sullivan and Rutherford, and bring in new management blood... who likely still has to blow up the roster.

No easy decisions.


Is there a reason you left Guentzel off your "core"

I get your point on trading Malkin, Letang and Murray I'm all for it. But I just don't see it as being realistic.
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Ericf on Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:35 pm

Yep, trading Geno or Letang is not realistic. People want it as some “big” move but at their ages and salary, the Pens aren’t getting anything worthwhile back, and they’ll probably have to take back a crappier player at an equally bad contract. The cap is frozen for next year and there aren’t teams with the space to take them without sending crap back. They’re not fetching good young talent anymore. Blow it up isn’t realistic. The Pens need to start collecting young players and playing them and then let those guys walk at the end of their contracts. The biggest move that would make sense now is firing Sullivan. Bring someone in who can construct an effective defensively structured system for this team to play...and stop playing players who don’t or can’t do what you need them to do
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:09 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Southern Fan wrote:
Penspal wrote:Is there anyone who hasn't given up on this team yet? Outside of Penny and I that is?

I get it, I do, they have under performed etc.


I can remember back in the stone ages when the Islanders were seconds away from a bad Pens team beating them in a best of 5 series, but they pulled it out And went on to win the Cup. So hope springs eternal until the final buzzer.

Too much lip service from Sully for me to have faith.
Too many hollow words not backed up by player actions.

This team had the ability to be very good. They dont appear to have the desire....for the 2nd year in a row. I dont see the drive to win loose puck board battles. I dont see the desire to back check and play defense even if it means being completely gassed. There is no "give it your all" unless it involves offense or fancy plays.

This team should have been jacked getting a major weapon like Guentzel back for these playoffs. They had a layoff to rest and recover. For the most part, everyone but Sid's line up front has been flatter than a pancake.

Either this team continues to kid itself for another 2 years that it is a strong contender, or they blow it up....trade Malkin and Letang. Surround Sid with more pieces. Sid, Jake, Marino, and Jarry as your core with Poulin and POJ coming. This team cant keep 87, 71, and 58 as lifers and expect to be relevant in the playoffs. Crosby, because of his style, should be the one lifetime Penguin of that group.

Jettison Malkin, Letang, Murray, and Bjugstad and use the returns to build around the new core. Zucker and Rust are both good fits here as well.

The other option....you fire Sullivan and Rutherford, and bring in new management blood... who likely still has to blow up the roster.

No easy decisions.


Is there a reason you left Guentzel off your "core"

I get your point on trading Malkin, Letang and Murray I'm all for it. But I just don't see it as being realistic.

I said Jake (not Guentzel) ;)

At their age, you aren't going to get some overwhelming haul for Letang or Geno. You wont get crumbs, but, you arent going to pull in 4 A level pieces for them either.

Hard to trade them because they both have NMC clauses, bit, I think you at least have to investigate. Could you do a Geno for RNH type swap as an example, giving Edmonton some experience to go with all their young guys?

But if you keep them for the last 2 years of their contracts, I dont see this team going far. Geno was again out there telling reporters he thinks they can win if the team plays the right way. That's their damn standard response for the last 2 years, and Geno is one of the worst offenders. Hollow words with no actions.

The window is closed in my book. Even if they somehow manage to come back and win the series against Montreal, how many people here believe that they won't slip right back into the bad habits in the next round. The drive isnt there. They need an influx of good young players to motivate them to play better....and that is pretty sad that this veteran team needs motivation.
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Ericf on Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:32 pm

Trading Geno for RNH is an abomination of a trade. Geno had 1.35 points/game this past year, fifth best in the NHL. The only thing RNH does is play more games a year than Geno. That’s not a good trade for the Pens. Any trade that’s not for a top young center is not a good trade for the Pens. He’s still a better center than all but a handful of players. Just because he can’t get a shot past Price, who’s in his head, and has lost confidence in his scoring is no reason to trade him.Yeesh. Letang has played pretty well compared to most of our other D men. Only Marino has arguably played better on our team. But yes, let’s throw him out too for a crappy return. It’s not happening. Sullivan on the other hand needs to go. Just terrible coaching decisions and he’s been outcoached by Trotz and now Julien the last three years
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:41 pm

Ericf wrote:Trading Geno for RNH is an abomination of a trade. Geno had 1.35 points/game this past year, fifth best in the NHL. The only thing RNH does is play more games a year than Geno. That’s not a good trade for the Pens. Any trade that’s not for a top young center is not a good trade for the Pens. He’s still a better center than all but a handful of players. Just because he can’t get a shot past Price, who’s in his head, and has lost confidence in his scoring is no reason to trade him.Yeesh. Letang has played pretty well compared to most of our other D men. Only Marino has arguably played better on our team. But yes, let’s throw him out too for a crappy return. It’s not happening. Sullivan on the other hand needs to go. Just terrible coaching decisions and he’s been outcoached by Trotz and now Julien the last three years

It was an example....relax. and, players like Rusty and Zucker and Hornqvist need to play well. Sid and Geno and Letang need to produce on the score board. They are the core. They are who the team is built around. They make around 25m between the 3 of them. They cant just play well. They need to be the main force, with others contributing.
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Ericf on Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:55 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Ericf wrote:Trading Geno for RNH is an abomination of a trade. Geno had 1.35 points/game this past year, fifth best in the NHL. The only thing RNH does is play more games a year than Geno. That’s not a good trade for the Pens. Any trade that’s not for a top young center is not a good trade for the Pens. He’s still a better center than all but a handful of players. Just because he can’t get a shot past Price, who’s in his head, and has lost confidence in his scoring is no reason to trade him.Yeesh. Letang has played pretty well compared to most of our other D men. Only Marino has arguably played better on our team. But yes, let’s throw him out too for a crappy return. It’s not happening. Sullivan on the other hand needs to go. Just terrible coaching decisions and he’s been outcoached by Trotz and now Julien the last three years

It was an example....relax. and, players like Rusty and Zucker and Hornqvist need to play well. Sid and Geno and Letang need to produce on the score board. They are the core. They are who the team is built around. They make around 25m between the 3 of them. They cant just play well. They need to be the main force, with others contributing.

You can be disappointed with their play. They’ve all clearly declined. But we’re not going to be able to replace them with McDavid and Drai etc. Anyone we could realistically replace with them with will not be better over the next two years. It’s unfortunate but that’s what happens when great players get old and you’re still paying them. The Pens are going to be at the bottom of the Metro and hopefully we get good enough draft positions and good enough scouting to pick up our next leaders. The cycle of life
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby pens_CT on Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:54 pm

Ericf wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Ericf wrote:Trading Geno for RNH is an abomination of a trade. Geno had 1.35 points/game this past year, fifth best in the NHL. The only thing RNH does is play more games a year than Geno. That’s not a good trade for the Pens. Any trade that’s not for a top young center is not a good trade for the Pens. He’s still a better center than all but a handful of players. Just because he can’t get a shot past Price, who’s in his head, and has lost confidence in his scoring is no reason to trade him.Yeesh. Letang has played pretty well compared to most of our other D men. Only Marino has arguably played better on our team. But yes, let’s throw him out too for a crappy return. It’s not happening. Sullivan on the other hand needs to go. Just terrible coaching decisions and he’s been outcoached by Trotz and now Julien the last three years

It was an example....relax. and, players like Rusty and Zucker and Hornqvist need to play well. Sid and Geno and Letang need to produce on the score board. They are the core. They are who the team is built around. They make around 25m between the 3 of them. They cant just play well. They need to be the main force, with others contributing.

You can be disappointed with their play. They’ve all clearly declined. But we’re not going to be able to replace them with McDavid and Drai etc. Anyone we could realistically replace with them with will not be better over the next two years. It’s unfortunate but that’s what happens when great players get old and you’re still paying them. The Pens are going to be at the bottom of the Metro and hopefully we get good enough draft positions and good enough scouting to pick up our next leaders. The cycle of life


So if they do lose this series, and they don't win the overall first selection, if you're Rutherford are you keeping the 15rh overall this year, and give next years first round pick to Minnesota? If they do clean some house after this season, next year's finish could be worse resulting in a higher pick in 2021?
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby Skatingpen on Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:59 pm

“ But if you keep them for the last 2 years of their contracts, I dont see this team going far. Geno was again out there telling reporters he thinks they can win if the team plays the right way. That's their damn standard response for the last 2 years, and Geno is one of the worst offenders. Hollow words with no actions.”

This
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:01 pm

pens_CT wrote:
Ericf wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Ericf wrote:Trading Geno for RNH is an abomination of a trade. Geno had 1.35 points/game this past year, fifth best in the NHL. The only thing RNH does is play more games a year than Geno. That’s not a good trade for the Pens. Any trade that’s not for a top young center is not a good trade for the Pens. He’s still a better center than all but a handful of players. Just because he can’t get a shot past Price, who’s in his head, and has lost confidence in his scoring is no reason to trade him.Yeesh. Letang has played pretty well compared to most of our other D men. Only Marino has arguably played better on our team. But yes, let’s throw him out too for a crappy return. It’s not happening. Sullivan on the other hand needs to go. Just terrible coaching decisions and he’s been outcoached by Trotz and now Julien the last three years

It was an example....relax. and, players like Rusty and Zucker and Hornqvist need to play well. Sid and Geno and Letang need to produce on the score board. They are the core. They are who the team is built around. They make around 25m between the 3 of them. They cant just play well. They need to be the main force, with others contributing.

You can be disappointed with their play. They’ve all clearly declined. But we’re not going to be able to replace them with McDavid and Drai etc. Anyone we could realistically replace with them with will not be better over the next two years. It’s unfortunate but that’s what happens when great players get old and you’re still paying them. The Pens are going to be at the bottom of the Metro and hopefully we get good enough draft positions and good enough scouting to pick up our next leaders. The cycle of life


So if they do lose this series, and they don't win the overall first selection, if you're Rutherford are you keeping the 15rh overall this year, and give next years first round pick to Minnesota? If they do clean some house after this season, next year's finish could be worse resulting in a higher pick in 2021?


If the Pens lose to the Canadiens im pretty sure they automatically keep the 2020 1st and Wild get the 2021 1st.
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby largegarlic on Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:24 pm

pens_CT wrote: So if they do lose this series, and they don't win the overall first selection, if you're Rutherford are you keeping the 15rh overall this year, and give next years first round pick to Minnesota? If they do clean some house after this season, next year's finish could be worse resulting in a higher pick in 2021?


If they do have a choice, I think I'd take the 15th pick this year. I think they're still a playoff team over the course of a somewhat full season and might be a little better by addition through subtraction. Plus, there's an outside chance they get someone who can make the team next year or the year after with the 15th pick.
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Re: SCP20 Game 3 vs Habs - Thoughts from the Morning After

Postby DelPen on Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:29 pm

largegarlic wrote:
pens_CT wrote: So if they do lose this series, and they don't win the overall first selection, if you're Rutherford are you keeping the 15rh overall this year, and give next years first round pick to Minnesota? If they do clean some house after this season, next year's finish could be worse resulting in a higher pick in 2021?


If they do have a choice, I think I'd take the 15th pick this year. I think they're still a playoff team over the course of a somewhat full season and might be a little better by addition through subtraction. Plus, there's an outside chance they get someone who can make the team next year or the year after with the 15th pick.

If I have a choice I keep the first because we don’t have a 2nd as long as we can make the choice on the clock. If we can’t make a move up by maybe doing the 15 and a goalie up into the top 7 or there is a stud at 15 I would want to be able to make a deal.
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