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BLOW IT UP

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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby pekkasteele on Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:39 pm

You cant really blame this years performance on the long break (all teams had the same) and since the performance was basically as bad as last year, it should not be a fluke either.

Changes needs to be made, players needs to go and probably the entire coaching staff to.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby Maestro on Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:27 am

Here's how GM Maestro would blow it up:

Head Coach - Sullivan fired (he'll get a job so the contract won't be a huge deal)
Replaced by - Gerard Gallant

Sumer/Fall Trades:
Matt Murray + Jack Johnson ------ Jesse Puljujärvi

Riikola + McCann ----- Max Domi (Domi RFA – 4 years, 18 mil)

Hornqvist ---- Connor Murphy (save about 3 mil)

Not resigned: Sheary, Schultz, Marleau, Simon


Lines:
Zucker – Crosby - Puljujärvi

Guentzel – Malkin – Rust

Poulin - Domi – Tanev

Lafferty – Blueger – Angello

Extras – ZAR. E-Rod

D
Dumo – Letang
Pettersson – Marino
POJ --- Murphy
Extras - RUHWEDEL
(Note: if LD were to go down during season, Niclas Almari or Czuczman could get call up)

G – Jarry - DeSmith
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby Jim on Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:17 am

Puljujarvi is absolutely horrible return for Murray, even with the Johnson dump.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby thehockeyguru on Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:25 am

Jim wrote:Puljujarvi is absolutely horrible return for Murray, even with the Johnson dump.


It is a terrible return but its likely all the team will get especially if they insist on moving JJ.

I'll be surprised if they don't include JJ in a Murray deal and ill be shocked if they get a top 6 forward or top 4 defenseman in return.

If GMJR is insistent on moving a contract with Murray i think there is more benefit in moving Hornqvist.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby FLPensFan on Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:44 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
Jim wrote:Puljujarvi is absolutely horrible return for Murray, even with the Johnson dump.


It is a terrible return but its likely all the team will get especially if they insist on moving JJ.

I'll be surprised if they don't include JJ in a Murray deal and ill be shocked if they get a top 6 forward or top 4 defenseman in return.

If GMJR is insistent on moving a contract with Murray i think there is more benefit in moving Hornqvist.

Sadly, I'm beginning to think the same. A player on an expired RFA deal like Montour, maybe. But a reach player like a Puljujarvi or Bennett may be all they can get. There are rumors that the league as whole has soured on Murray. You never know what to expect. He could be the next Cody Franson....expecting a big money deal of 4-5M AAV, and having to sign for 1M. I think Murray faces the possibility of getting knocked down a few pegs with his next contract offer.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby FLPensFan on Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:48 am

Maestro wrote:Here's how GM Maestro would blow it up:

Head Coach - Sullivan fired (he'll get a job so the contract won't be a huge deal)
Replaced by - Gerard Gallant

Sumer/Fall Trades:
Matt Murray + Jack Johnson ------ Jesse Puljujärvi

Riikola + McCann ----- Max Domi (Domi RFA – 4 years, 18 mil)

Hornqvist ---- Connor Murphy (save about 3 mil)

Not resigned: Sheary, Schultz, Marleau, Simon


Lines:
Zucker – Crosby - Puljujärvi

Guentzel – Malkin – Rust

Poulin - Domi – Tanev

Lafferty – Blueger – Angello

Extras – ZAR. E-Rod

D
Dumo – Letang
Pettersson – Marino
POJ --- Murphy
Extras - RUHWEDEL
(Note: if LD were to go down during season, Niclas Almari or Czuczman could get call up)

G – Jarry - DeSmith

I don't hate it, but, there's no way the Penguins are firing Sullivan. They would have done it already, and in fact, I'm pretty sure there have been statements already that he will return for next season. But, point noted, I think we are all close to that point on Sullivan.

I don't hate the deals you made. I think you MIGHT have to kick in something extra on Domi and Murphy. Really tough to judge. Might only be a mid round pick or a Bellerive/Bjorkqvist type prospect, but I think there is some good perceived value on those guys.

I wouldn't be mad at those deals.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby Wyopen on Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:22 am

Murray has arbitration rights, correct? Let him go to arbitration see what he gets, if not reasonable don’t match, get a few draft choices from the team that does signs him. Does this make any sense?
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby FLPensFan on Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:37 am

Wyopen wrote:Murray has arbitration rights, correct? Let him go to arbitration see what he gets, if not reasonable don’t match, get a few draft choices from the team that does signs him. Does this make any sense?

No, not really, and I'll explain why. First, arbitration has set limits of what you can and cannot walk away from, and in this case, Murray is all but guaranteed to make over the amount that cannot be walked away from. It is usually somewhere in the 3-4M range. So, if Murray is awarded more than 4M in arbitration, as an example, the team has to accept that amount. They cannot walk away. They MUST sign him for that amount. Now, they could trade him, and the acquiring team would have to sign him for that amount, but, that's a dangerous risk. He gets a high reward, you are going to really limit what might be an already weak return for Murray. Teams may just look at the UFA market instead. Then the Penguins are left holding the bag on a player they can't pay and can't move. This is why you may see 20 players each year file for arbitration, but you're lucky if 5 even make it to the arbitration hearing. Teams would much rather settle without arbitration and have a known value, rather than a value that the arbitrator sets. Sometimes it can work in their favor and player gets a lot less than they expected. Even then, some make it to the hearing, and settle with the team before the 24-48 hours it takes the arbitrator to announce his ruling/salary.

2nd, I'm 99% sure on this but, you can't get draft picks back when an arbitration has been awarded. Teams have to submit offer sheets, meaning they are offering a specific AAV and term to the player, and if that player accepts, then the former team gets the compensation based on the AAV. With an arbitration award, an arbitrator sets that amount, taking the offer sheet element out of the picture.

This is why I think something like Murray for Montour makes sense. Both players are RFAs with arbitration rights. Both teams are getting a position they need (although Montour on the 3rd pairing is a bit overkill; makes more sense if Letang was moved and Marino took #1 spot) and both teams are assuming risks
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby Wyopen on Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:10 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Wyopen wrote:Murray has arbitration rights, correct? Let him go to arbitration see what he gets, if not reasonable don’t match, get a few draft choices from the team that does signs him. Does this make any sense?

No, not really, and I'll explain why. First, arbitration has set limits of what you can and cannot walk away from, and in this case, Murray is all but guaranteed to make over the amount that cannot be walked away from. It is usually somewhere in the 3-4M range. So, if Murray is awarded more than 4M in arbitration, as an example, the team has to accept that amount. They cannot walk away. They MUST sign him for that amount. Now, they could trade him, and the acquiring team would have to sign him for that amount, but, that's a dangerous risk. He gets a high reward, you are going to really limit what might be an already weak return for Murray. Teams may just look at the UFA market instead. Then the Penguins are left holding the bag on a player they can't pay and can't move. This is why you may see 20 players each year file for arbitration, but you're lucky if 5 even make it to the arbitration hearing. Teams would much rather settle without arbitration and have a known value, rather than a value that the arbitrator sets. Sometimes it can work in their favor and player gets a lot less than they expected. Even then, some make it to the hearing, and settle with the team before the 24-48 hours it takes the arbitrator to announce his ruling/salary.

2nd, I'm 99% sure on this but, you can't get draft picks back when an arbitration has been awarded. Teams have to submit offer sheets, meaning they are offering a specific AAV and term to the player, and if that player accepts, then the former team gets the compensation based on the AAV. With an arbitration award, an arbitrator sets that amount, taking the offer sheet element out of the picture.

This is why I think something like Murray for Montour makes sense. Both players are RFAs with arbitration rights. Both teams are getting a position they need (although Montour on the 3rd pairing is a bit overkill; makes more sense if Letang was moved and Marino took #1 spot) and both teams are assuming risks


Thanks for the clarification. I guess that shoots my thought.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby thehockeyguru on Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:31 pm

Murray for Montour has always made the most sense to me.

Then it comes down to how they can unload McCann and Bjugstad and for what. Based on what they get back and the remaining holes i think moving Letang could come into play but again unlikely.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby Hatrick on Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:42 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
Jim wrote:Puljujarvi is absolutely horrible return for Murray, even with the Johnson dump.


It is a terrible return but its likely all the team will get especially if they insist on moving JJ.

I'll be surprised if they don't include JJ in a Murray deal and ill be shocked if they get a top 6 forward or top 4 defenseman in return.

If GMJR is insistent on moving a contract with Murray i think there is more benefit in moving Hornqvist.

the capitals dumped Orpik(whos contract was WORSE than Johnsons), while moving Grubauer and still got a 2nd round pick. I would say Murray still has at least the value of Grubauer(although his contract demands and the flat cap limit his return a bit, he still has a MUCH better track record than Grubauer did). I would rather trade Murray+Johnson for a couple picks than for Puljujarvi.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby thehockeyguru on Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:46 pm

Hatrick wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Jim wrote:Puljujarvi is absolutely horrible return for Murray, even with the Johnson dump.


It is a terrible return but its likely all the team will get especially if they insist on moving JJ.

I'll be surprised if they don't include JJ in a Murray deal and ill be shocked if they get a top 6 forward or top 4 defenseman in return.

If GMJR is insistent on moving a contract with Murray i think there is more benefit in moving Hornqvist.

the capitals dumped Orpik(whos contract was WORSE than Johnsons), while moving Grubauer and still got a 2nd round pick. I would say Murray still has at least the value of Grubauer(although his contract demands and the flat cap limit his return a bit, he still has a MUCH better track record than Grubauer did). I would rather trade Murray+Johnson for a couple picks than for Puljujarvi.


Orpik had one year left on his contract, JJ has 3 years left so its not apples to apples.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby FLPensFan on Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:21 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:Murray for Montour has always made the most sense to me.

Then it comes down to how they can unload McCann and Bjugstad and for what. Based on what they get back and the remaining holes i think moving Letang could come into play but again unlikely.

Yep, been saying that for awhile.

Buffalo in need of a goalie....check. (Unless you believe the Buffalo fans that literally think Ulmark is better than Murray because Ulmark's #'s were better this year :roll: )
Buffalo with a glut of RD.....check. Ristolainen, Montour, Miller, and Jokiharju. They also have William Borgen waiting for a spot to open up on RD. John Vogl of the Athletic, who covers the Sabres says he is expendable because Buffalo has tons of RD depth, they may not want to risk him going to arbitration, and he didn't perform for them.
Penguins like Montour....check. Now this was before John Marino came on the scene, but, there were multiple reports that Rutherford made attempts to get Montour from Anaheim.

So, two guys likely to be traded, both RFAs with arbitration rights. It just makes SOOOOO much sense to me. I don't see them being a taker for JJ though. They are short on LD and ultimately, according to Vogl, would like McCabe to slide down to be their 3rd pairing LD (feel he is a bit weak for 2nd pairing). JJ wouldn't help them there. I think they'll look elsewhere for LD help.

If Letang is kept, I'd see Montour on the fact that this team has a lot of injuries, so he won't be stuck playing 3rd pairing forever. I'd also sell him on Letang moving on in 2 seasons, and he will definitely move up the lineup at that time. Montour probably looking at 4-4.5M on a 4-5 year deal. I haven't looked at his defensive numbers yet, but, he's known more for offense. His numbers really weren't down too much on the offensive side. His usually a 30-35 point d-man with 6-9 goals, .37/pt per game player. He had only 5 goals and 18 points last season....but missed a bunch of games at start of season with a hand injury. .33pt/game last season.

With Domi, it really depends on if the Canadians are down on him or not. Maybe he tells them as an RFA he really wants to play in Pittsburgh and forces their hand. Maybe some reports of them being unhappy with him are overblown....but, if he is going to be moved, I'm sure someone can offer better than the Penguins....unless we include a Hallander or Legare. I would do McCann, Riikola, and Legare for Domi and a 3rd/4th.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby thehockeyguru on Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:06 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Murray for Montour has always made the most sense to me.

Then it comes down to how they can unload McCann and Bjugstad and for what. Based on what they get back and the remaining holes i think moving Letang could come into play but again unlikely.

Yep, been saying that for awhile.

Buffalo in need of a goalie....check. (Unless you believe the Buffalo fans that literally think Ulmark is better than Murray because Ulmark's #'s were better this year :roll: )
Buffalo with a glut of RD.....check. Ristolainen, Montour, Miller, and Jokiharju. They also have William Borgen waiting for a spot to open up on RD. John Vogl of the Athletic, who covers the Sabres says he is expendable because Buffalo has tons of RD depth, they may not want to risk him going to arbitration, and he didn't perform for them.
Penguins like Montour....check. Now this was before John Marino came on the scene, but, there were multiple reports that Rutherford made attempts to get Montour from Anaheim.

So, two guys likely to be traded, both RFAs with arbitration rights. It just makes SOOOOO much sense to me. I don't see them being a taker for JJ though. They are short on LD and ultimately, according to Vogl, would like McCabe to slide down to be their 3rd pairing LD (feel he is a bit weak for 2nd pairing). JJ wouldn't help them there. I think they'll look elsewhere for LD help.

If Letang is kept, I'd see Montour on the fact that this team has a lot of injuries, so he won't be stuck playing 3rd pairing forever. I'd also sell him on Letang moving on in 2 seasons, and he will definitely move up the lineup at that time. Montour probably looking at 4-4.5M on a 4-5 year deal. I haven't looked at his defensive numbers yet, but, he's known more for offense. His numbers really weren't down too much on the offensive side. His usually a 30-35 point d-man with 6-9 goals, .37/pt per game player. He had only 5 goals and 18 points last season....but missed a bunch of games at start of season with a hand injury. .33pt/game last season.

With Domi, it really depends on if the Canadians are down on him or not. Maybe he tells them as an RFA he really wants to play in Pittsburgh and forces their hand. Maybe some reports of them being unhappy with him are overblown....but, if he is going to be moved, I'm sure someone can offer better than the Penguins....unless we include a Hallander or Legare. I would do McCann, Riikola, and Legare for Domi and a 3rd/4th.


If we can get Montour I'm 100% looking to move Letang to Toronto. Kapanen and their 2021 1st for Letang and 50% retained.

Zucker Crosby Kapanen
Guentzel Malkin Rust
Poulin Domi Hornqvist
ZAR Bleuger Tanev

Dumoulin Montour
Pettersson Marino
POJ ???

Jarry
DeSmith
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby 100565 on Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:46 pm

Maestro wrote:Here's how GM Maestro would blow it up:

Head Coach - Sullivan fired (he'll get a job so the contract won't be a huge deal)
Replaced by - Gerard Gallant

Sumer/Fall Trades:
Matt Murray + Jack Johnson ------ Jesse Puljujärvi

Riikola + McCann ----- Max Domi (Domi RFA – 4 years, 18 mil)

Hornqvist ---- Connor Murphy (save about 3 mil)

Not resigned: Sheary, Schultz, Marleau, Simon


Lines:
Zucker – Crosby - Puljujärvi

Guentzel – Malkin – Rust

Poulin - Domi – Tanev

Lafferty – Blueger – Angello

Extras – ZAR. E-Rod

D
Dumo – Letang
Pettersson – Marino
POJ --- Murphy
Extras - RUHWEDEL
(Note: if LD were to go down during season, Niclas Almari or Czuczman could get call up)

G – Jarry - DeSmith


I like the general idea; esp. regarding Sully. I have wanted Connor Murphy for years. The problen is Chicago cap; they have issues. I've read the might consider Maatta buy/trade...so I doubt they would take additional cap of Hornqvist.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby Hatrick on Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:46 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
Hatrick wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Jim wrote:Puljujarvi is absolutely horrible return for Murray, even with the Johnson dump.


It is a terrible return but its likely all the team will get especially if they insist on moving JJ.

I'll be surprised if they don't include JJ in a Murray deal and ill be shocked if they get a top 6 forward or top 4 defenseman in return.

If GMJR is insistent on moving a contract with Murray i think there is more benefit in moving Hornqvist.

the capitals dumped Orpik(whos contract was WORSE than Johnsons), while moving Grubauer and still got a 2nd round pick. I would say Murray still has at least the value of Grubauer(although his contract demands and the flat cap limit his return a bit, he still has a MUCH better track record than Grubauer did). I would rather trade Murray+Johnson for a couple picks than for Puljujarvi.


Orpik had one year left on his contract, JJ has 3 years left so its not apples to apples.

right so its not exactly the same, one was more years but less AAV(which is what matters more to the cap, although Colorado bought him out anyway). So its not 100% the same, but I would still say the Orpik contract is worse as a whole. Even if somebody thinks they are equally bad, Murray is still more proven than Grubauer, and I would rather have a couple seconds than have Pool party.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby Cow_Master66 on Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:28 pm

The only thing peps meed to remember with a Murray trade is it only takes 1 team. Despite what people think around here he’s a young guy with 2 cups to his name. No reason to think there isn’t at least 1 team that looks at him and thinks their goalie coach can whip him into shape.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby thehockeyguru on Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:51 pm

Hatrick wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Hatrick wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Jim wrote:Puljujarvi is absolutely horrible return for Murray, even with the Johnson dump.


It is a terrible return but its likely all the team will get especially if they insist on moving JJ.

I'll be surprised if they don't include JJ in a Murray deal and ill be shocked if they get a top 6 forward or top 4 defenseman in return.

If GMJR is insistent on moving a contract with Murray i think there is more benefit in moving Hornqvist.

the capitals dumped Orpik(whos contract was WORSE than Johnsons), while moving Grubauer and still got a 2nd round pick. I would say Murray still has at least the value of Grubauer(although his contract demands and the flat cap limit his return a bit, he still has a MUCH better track record than Grubauer did). I would rather trade Murray+Johnson for a couple picks than for Puljujarvi.


Orpik had one year left on his contract, JJ has 3 years left so its not apples to apples.

right so its not exactly the same, one was more years but less AAV(which is what matters more to the cap, although Colorado bought him out anyway). So its not 100% the same, but I would still say the Orpik contract is worse as a whole. Even if somebody thinks they are equally bad, Murray is still more proven than Grubauer, and I would rather have a couple seconds than have Pool party.


Its plausible but if a trade is made with Minnesota I get the sense that it would be Bjugstad for a 6th or 7th rounder
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby Maestro on Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:06 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Maestro wrote:Here's how GM Maestro would blow it up:

Head Coach - Sullivan fired (he'll get a job so the contract won't be a huge deal)
Replaced by - Gerard Gallant

Sumer/Fall Trades:
Matt Murray + Jack Johnson ------ Jesse Puljujärvi

Riikola + McCann ----- Max Domi (Domi RFA – 4 years, 18 mil)

Hornqvist ---- Connor Murphy (save about 3 mil)

Not resigned: Sheary, Schultz, Marleau, Simon


Lines:
Zucker – Crosby - Puljujärvi

Guentzel – Malkin – Rust

Poulin - Domi – Tanev

Lafferty – Blueger – Angello

Extras – ZAR. E-Rod

D
Dumo – Letang
Pettersson – Marino
POJ --- Murphy
Extras - RUHWEDEL
(Note: if LD were to go down during season, Niclas Almari or Czuczman could get call up)

G – Jarry - DeSmith

I don't hate it, but, there's no way the Penguins are firing Sullivan. They would have done it already, and in fact, I'm pretty sure there have been statements already that he will return for next season. But, point noted, I think we are all close to that point on Sullivan.

I don't hate the deals you made. I think you MIGHT have to kick in something extra on Domi and Murphy. Really tough to judge. Might only be a mid round pick or a Bellerive/Bjorkqvist type prospect, but I think there is some good perceived value on those guys.

I wouldn't be mad at those deals.



Yeah, I know, Sully gets to lose in the first round 1 more time.
But if GM Maestro were at the helm he'd be taking a call from Ronnie Francis.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby Maestro on Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:14 pm

Jim wrote:Puljujarvi is absolutely horrible return for Murray, even with the Johnson dump.


I disagree.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby ville5 on Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:19 pm

Maestro wrote:
Jim wrote:Puljujarvi is absolutely horrible return for Murray, even with the Johnson dump.


I disagree.

I agree. There's a reason his nickname is pool party. You think Sid wants him on his line? I don't see JP doing what it takes to create space for Sid out there.
Malkin already has his own lazy spurts. We dont need another with lazy stretches to anchor the 2nd line down.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby Maestro on Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:26 pm

Everyone acts like Puljujärvi is some bum. The player is 22 years old. Players do develop and improve.

And isn't one of Crosby's tricks making average (at best) players look like they can be a 1st liner (see Simon, Dominik)

https://oilersnation.com/2020/04/20/jes ... in-europe/

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/jes ... ght-track/
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby Jim on Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:38 pm

Maestro wrote:Everyone acts like Puljujärvi is some bum. The player is 22 years old. Players do develop and improve.

And isn't one of Crosby's tricks making average (at best) players look like they can be a 1st liner (see Simon, Dominik)

https://oilersnation.com/2020/04/20/jes ... in-europe/

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/jes ... ght-track/


Yeah, so?

Nigle Dawes is literally a superstar in the KHL. The KHL is a joke compared to the NHL (before anyone comments, it is, accept it) The league that Puljujarvi plays in is so far below the KHL it can't even see its shadow. It's closer to a beer league than the NHL. It looks up to see US College programs. Somewhere between high school programs and college. Went through all of that just to show how lowly of competition he is facing. Not impressed.

Horrible return for Murray.

You could get the top 5 guys in that league and it wouldn't be good return.
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Re: BLOW IT UP

Postby Hatrick on Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:41 am

Maestro wrote:Everyone acts like Puljujärvi is some bum. The player is 22 years old. Players do develop and improve.

And isn't one of Crosby's tricks making average (at best) players look like they can be a 1st liner (see Simon, Dominik)

https://oilersnation.com/2020/04/20/jes ... in-europe/

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/jes ... ght-track/

Just because Crosby makes seemingly average (or below average) players into decent 1st liners does not mean I would go out and try to acquire a bunch of average guys.

While I don't think he is necessarily a bum, and he can improve, he has not proved a single thing so far(limited NHL action didn't look great, and a finnish does not inspire confidence to prove that wrong. Most I would give up for him is a 3rd round pick, if they took Johnson back the other way then I would give them a second. It would be essentially what you might get in a third round, a crap shoot.
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