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Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby KG on Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:17 pm

So who's the source of these unnamed player quotes??? I vote Geno...
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby largegarlic on Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:18 pm

It seems contradictory for Rutherford to talk about wanting to keep the window open and ownership not wanting to spend to the cap. If they want to save money, they should just totally blow up the roster, trade Malkin and Letang for picks/prospects, and hope for some favorable lottery ball bounces in the next couple years.

That said, as I posted in some thread, they could cut a lot of dead, expensive weight from the roster with trades, buyouts, and letting UFAs walk, sign some of their own RFAs, and come in with a payroll $7-8 million below the cap and a roster that is arguably as good as this year's. The problem, of course, is that this year's team wasn't a contender, so that still wouldn't be "keeping the window open".
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby penny lane on Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:26 pm

Kevin Allen - on 93.7 saying the team played one way during the season and was successful defensive, but tried again to play speed in the play offs. With a freaking 40 year old added.
Goalies aplenty next year. Allen suggested Det as a partner- a 5th? Yikes. Lundqvist/Lehner also available.
Starkey, asked about Evgeni to FLA, well all the players the pens would want are the ones fla wants to hold onto.

Will Sullivan hire a coach who could be his replacement? If he is forced to hire a person GR Jim wants- more uncomfortable drama.
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby 100565 on Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:28 pm

largegarlic wrote:It seems contradictory for Rutherford to talk about wanting to keep the window open and ownership not wanting to spend to the cap. If they want to save money, they should just totally blow up the roster, trade Malkin and Letang for picks/prospects, and hope for some favorable lottery ball bounces in the next couple years.

That said, as I posted in some thread, they could cut a lot of dead, expensive weight from the roster with trades, buyouts, and letting UFAs walk, sign some of their own RFAs, and come in with a payroll $7-8 million below the cap and a roster that is arguably as good as this year's. The problem, of course, is that this year's team wasn't a contender, so that still wouldn't be "keeping the window open".


It is relative though. If other teams reduce their spending, then it is keeping the window open.

The article states about financial issues due to poor playoff performance over the last two years. Covid has more to do with it. I am going off of FLPF summary, but the article does not seem to indicate how a loss before this playoff hurt them financially. There were no fans, no concessions, no gained revenue. Well, I suppose the virtual ads stuck on the boards (and the thin air) would be a little revenue for playoff teams. is the league compensating the Stanley Cup champs this year?
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby ville5 on Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:32 pm

KG wrote:So who's the source of these unnamed player quotes??? I vote Geno...

I vote the voices in Rossi's head.
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby KG on Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:37 pm

ville5 wrote:
KG wrote:So who's the source of these unnamed player quotes??? I vote Geno...

I vote the voices in Rossi's head.


:D
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:41 pm

KG wrote:
ville5 wrote:
KG wrote:So who's the source of these unnamed player quotes??? I vote Geno...

I vote the voices in Rossi's head.


:D

I have a feeling the quote about the PP came from Geno. But, people keep overlooking that this was a joint article between Rossi and Yohe. I know a lot of people don't like Rossi so they immediately discredit him. I had a period where I didn't like the guy. That period was when DK went out on his own and Rossi became a columnist, not a reporter. He wasn't good at it. With the Athletic, Rossi has more back in his element, and at least in my book, has gained some credibility back.
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby lemieuxReturns on Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:47 pm

-If you want some insight into a possible destination for Geno, wait and see where Gonchar goes. It might be a clue as to a GM that wants to make that trade but needs to grease the rails first.
-Trading Letang makes the most sense.
-I am confused on how the Penguins would trade Hornqvist. Everyone says he changes the locker room immediately once he present. The coach loves him. The players love him. JR better have a replacement for those intangibles.

-JR's should have 1 more season to get things right then he should be gone. I actually would not mind Shero again at this point. It would be nice to win a trade again.
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby penny lane on Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:57 pm

No, Evgeni has earned the right to remain a penguin.
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby ville5 on Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:06 pm

KG wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Jim wrote:
DelPen wrote:
KG wrote:I saw on another board that there’s an article on The Athletic saying that Pens don’t plan to spend to the cap to start the ceiling ? First time since 2007.

If anyone subscribes, check it out and summarize for the masses :)


Basically assumptions are that Pens spend because they make money. If they don’t have the revenues to support an $81 million payroll they won’t spend that much. Rumors are they want to hit just above $70 million. That leaves a net $3 million to sign a goalie, a defenseman and a few depth forwards. Sounds like if that is the goal a big contract needs to be moved and some RFA’s like McCann won’t be getting paid. And definitely won’t keep both goalies since DeSmith is signed cheap as a backup.


That doesn't sound like an article based in reality. Sure, teams can spend because they make money, and if they don't make money it makes it hard to spend. However, the Pens have not shown a tendency to penny pinch, even at the deadline. This move would be a complete about face for them, and a major one at that ($70M). That is not just a "we are going to cool off for a little" kind of thing. That would literally put them dead last in payroll.

I think that some writer that watches too much Pirates wrote a Penguins article late at night after having a couple drinks. (and no, I don't care who actually wrote it)

Click bait garbage.

I'm not sure I would call it clickbait. The article isn't titled anything about the cap, it's title is "Inside the Penguins collapse and the big changes still to come." It's a joint article on the Athletic by Rossi and Yohe. It has quotes from team sources AND players (of course, nobody is named). I had started reading the article, but haven't finished it yet. I'll say this...this might be the most damming article against Sullivan AND Rutherford (or any Penguins coach/GM) that I've ever seen.

https://theathletic.com/1992907/2020/08/13/inside-the-penguins-collapse-and-the-big-changes-that-still-remain/

--The article mentions (in what I have read so far), that with two post season failures, that may impact the teams ability to build a Stanley Cup contender. Doesn't say it yet, but hints at not spending to the cap.

--The sentiment I am getting from reading the article and, most notably the player quotes is the following:
---->Penguins players really liked the Zucker acquisition, but felt that was ALL that they needed.
---->Penguins players did not like the acquisitions of Marleau, Sheary, and Rodrigues. Player quoting as saying something to the effect that, they don't want to mess with chemistry but then bring in 3 new guys. Another player questioned the trading of Kahun, saying he was palying well for them and it didn't make sense.
---->Another player quote saying that the team played better in front of Jarry but "I guess the coaches saw something different."
---->Team source says even though Sullivan's confidence in Murray had eroded last 2 years, he still went to him in the playoffs. Coaching staff had been continually frustrated with Murray playing too deep in his crease.
---->Article said the players were really on-board with Sullivan and praising him throughout the season, his ability to be calm during all the injuries, riding Jarry's hot hand, and had a good pulse on the team. But says once the team got to the bubble, things changed.

The next section starts talking about the bubble and decisions
---->Some players were not happy with Sullivan's loyalty to players who won with him before, specifically, Sheary, Murray, and Justin Schultz.
---->Locker room was apparently divided by Sullivan deciding to start Murray over Jarry, with most of the vets siding with Sully's decision because of Murray's playoff history.
---->Says Murray and Jarry have a good relationship, and Murray never publicly criticized Sullivan for playing Jarry often in December and January, but Murray was "seething" because of the lack of playing time at that point of the season.
---->When training in Pittsburgh, Sullivan was "boisterous and upbeat" during workouts, full of optimism. Once he got to Toronto, he was more subdued with a quiet confidence according to many players. Change was very noticeable after the Game 3 loss.
---->A player said after Game 3, he thought the team "deserved to be yelled at," but Sullivan barely raised his voice at the team. He was giving a we're disappointed but stick with it attitude.
---->Before game 4, Sullivan apparently only criticized 2 players during a video session....ZAR and Schultz. Says even though social media was berating Johnson, internally, it was Schultz getting Sullivan's wrath. On ZAR, he criticized him for his retaliation penalty, telling him if Crosby could take it without responding, so should ZAR.
---->Sullivan was overconfident in the team. He had so much confidence he didn't think they could lose, and didn't feel the need to yell and scream, etc. He just thought they would "get to their game" and pull through.
---->Another player basically said when teams trap against them, it is very difficult for the skill players to settle for dumping the puck and going to get it. The player said "I don't know if we had the type of team to do that."

You want a damming quote from a player on the PP. (not sure if this player is "on" a PP unit, but this was the quote)
---->“We should score at 30 percent,” a player said of the power play after the loss to Montreal. “We have no plan, the wrong mentality. I don’t know why. Coaches don’t know. We should be great.”

On the start of this offseason...
--->Says ownership is definitely involved in this offseason
--->Many shocked by Gonchar's release, with one saying he was the best of the 3 let go. Ask any of the defenseman and they will tell you.
--->An NHL exec was quoted as saying Sullivan likes to be surrounded by Yes men. He said the fired assistants were all pretty low key, and that didn't work. Said they needed someone like Tocchet, who will challenge Sullivan.

This is where the cap comes in. The article again mentions Crosby's message from last year about not wanting Malkin to be traded, and says after this playoff loss, Malkin re-iterated his desire to finish his NHL career with Pittsburgh. The article says according to multiple team and league sources, the team is very likely to not spend near the salary cap to start the upcoming season. Revenue is down because of early playoff exits and COVID, and ownership believes cost-cutting measures are appropriate. Team and industry sources say Rutherford could spend to the cap if ownership was convinced **in-season** that the team was only a piece or two away from a deep playoff run.

Article says multiple team and league sources believe the Penguins will spend in the low to mid 70M range to start the season. Says the team will explore trades of multiple veterans, especially because the ownership favors trades over buyouts. Rival executives strongly believe Rutherford will at least explore a trade of Letang for multiple reasons. One exec says “Letang’s market value is better, if you can believe it. Malkin can pick where he wants to go, and do you get him for just two years and he goes back to Russia? With Letang, the only thing you’re worried about is his health. Can he stay healthy? He’s still a top defenseman and you’re probably going to keep him around if you get him, so (the Penguins) would get more for him, I’d think.” The exec says in the end though, he doesn't think Rutherford will move Letang.

Another industry source said good luck if they move either Malkin or Letang. Sellout streak would be in jeopardy and fans wouldn't be happy.

==============================================
So, what is my take on all this?

1. This team is a big, giant, cluster **** mess. Players don't agree with GM roster moves. Players are up and down on the coaches. Coach is up and down in his personality. It just sounds like Sullivan and Rutherford have worn out their welcome and it is time for another Shero/Bylsma type purge.

2. If the ownership statement about the cap is true, I think the Penguins might be in for a shock. The cap is staying flat. There are multiple teams that will need to make moves. I'd be a bit surprised if the Penguins can accomplish a 75M cap via trades. They'd have to dump Hornqvist, Bjugstad, and maybe Johnson, and take little back in return.

3. This really sounds like Sullivan's demeanor and personnel decisions frustrated the team

4. Hate to say it, and Chirpin Grinder would love it, but, it does seem like, based on one player's feedback, this team needs some more players with size. They don't have to be hitting goons, but, it sounds like they need 2-3 more forwards who can play a more physical game, who WILL go chasing after the puck and battle hard when it is dumped in. If the team is built with all speed....the trap comes out and this team is a deer in headlights.

5. See if you can trade Letang to Toronto for one of Kapanen or Kerfoot plus a pick or a prospect (might need a 3rd team to help cap in Toronto). Then dump Murray in Buffalo for Montour and a pick. Fire Johnson into the sun.

It will be quite an interesting offseason.



Very interesting ineed. But I mean come on. Player(s) were upset by bringing in Marleau, Sheary and Rodriguez??? not really altering the makeup of the club there. And don't forget there was no Jake, no JR was trying to get more depth scoring. Because as we all know, the Pens don't score in the playoffs the last 3 years. And when they say players inside the room, have to think this is someone of weight. Malkin/Letang?? Switch things up...

I wouldn't be against a change in philosophy a little bit. This team has become way too easy to play against.

If there are players that felt they needed a verbal, shouting reaming, maybe they have lost their hunger and need replaced.
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby Jim on Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:26 pm

FLPensFan wrote:I'm not sure I would call it clickbait.


Edited down your post because there is no reason to keep quoting a 1000 word essay...

I'm going to use the comments in the article, but I am not siding with them being real.

Sullivan's obvious dislike for anything physical was in there with his supposed finger pointing at Reese and saying that if Crosby can puss-out Reese should be able to too. Then there was your comment about players wanting size. This has been an obvious problem since the Reaves trade. Crosby was getting abused and Lemieux specifically named Reaves as a target that he wanted. Rutherford got him, and Sullivan didn't use him. Tanev hits and gets banished to the 4th line. Players stick up for one another and get benched. I honestly hope that the players are getting tired of the snowflake hockey that Sullivan wants them to play.

For two years I have been saying that Sullivan stinks at line combos and time management, seems some players might be getting annoyed at that too.
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby Jim on Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:32 pm

ville5 wrote:If there are players that felt they needed a verbal, shouting reaming, maybe they have lost their hunger and need replaced.


I don't want to be yelled at, but I know when I deserve it, and it is a surprise when it doesn't come.
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby Jim on Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:34 pm

When Guerin went to the Wild he said that Rutherford told him that you shouldn't try to win trades. Just make then fair. They other GM will remember that. Hopefully other GMs remember that this off season.
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:51 pm

Jim wrote:When Guerin went to the Wild he said that Rutherford told him that you shouldn't try to win trades. Just make then fair. They other GM will remember that. Hopefully other GMs remember that this off season.

I still seeing it being very tough because of the COVID-19 effect on the cap. Everybody is going to be looking to deal. Last season, I think 16 teams were exceeding the cap via LTIR at one point...that's how many teams were up against the cap. You have a team like Toronto who has 4 players costing 40M total, and they have to try and put a team together for next season. You have a team like Detroit that has dead cap space and was near the cap, and they suck.

I just see too many teams that need to make moves and not enough teams buying. Nashville sounds like they are ready to start blowing things up, too. Toronto will have to make some trades. There are bound to be a few others.

I don't see enough teams that have piles of cap space that are going to want to take on some of these contracts without a heavy premium. I doubt it will happen, but, rather than take on bad contracts, a few teams like Ottawa, NJ, etc, that do have the space, should try and get involved in some "Brassard-like" trades, a player is traded to team 1, team 1 then flips to team 2 and retains 1M in salary. End result is team 2 and team 3 making a trade, with team 1 retaining some of that salary but not a full contract. Smart GMs should be looking to charge teams picks or prospects to take on some additional cap, but not full contracts.
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby lemieuxReturns on Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:19 pm

penny lane wrote:No, Evgeni has earned the right to remain a penguin.



100000% agree!
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby KG on Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:31 pm

I hope if they are looking to shed salary that they don't trade a good asset for cap relief (Letang) like the Preds did when they dealt Subban to the Devils for $9mill in cap space.

Was speaking about Letang. Forgot to mention him :D
Last edited by KG on Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby Jim on Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:33 pm

KG wrote:I hope if they are looking to shed salary that they don't trade a good asset for cap relief, like the Preds to when they deal Subban to the Devils for $9mill in cap space.


:pop:
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby KG on Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:38 pm

Jim wrote:
KG wrote:I hope if they are looking to shed salary that they don't trade a good asset for cap relief, like the Preds to when they deal Subban to the Devils for $9mill in cap space.


:pop:


I think I may have had a mini-stroke when I wrote that...I'll try again! :D
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby Jim on Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:43 pm

If I'm the Pens and I am looking to shed salary... this is the order that I look to trade:

Letang - #3 salary on the team and should be able to get return
Malkin - #1 salary on the team and should be able to get very good return
Pettersson - Basically tied for #2 salary on D, not basically a #2 guy at all, might get some return.
Bjugstad - Tied for #5 salary at F. Only 1 year left helps, if healthy someone might take him for cheap.
Hornqvist - Tied for #5 salary at F, but 3 years left. Actual leader on the team but might cost to move.
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:12 pm

Do we really think the Pens will only spend like $75M? If we leave $5M on the table that is a top pairing dMan we’d not sign. How do we get better but not spend to cap?
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby DelPen on Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:18 pm

But how much will you need to spend to replace the minutes Letang plays? Despite his brain dead play at times he is usually a solid guy who just eats minutes. You would need two guys making $4 million each to offset that ice time so I’m not sure that solves a salary issue. But if we are talking a Suban for Weber type trade then I’m all for that.

Malkin isn’t going anywhere unless he wants too.

Bjugstad has more value as a 3rd line center when he plays and won’t count against the cap when he’s on LTIR anyways.

Hornqvist getting traded will be as bad as when Hagelin was traded and that was one of the biggest mistakes Rutherford made. But he might be the guy.

I doubt Pettersson gets moved but stranger things have happened.

So I don’t see any of the big deals already signed leaving the team.

I do see Murray and McCann getting traded because they have value and will be too expensive to resign. Unfortunately someone making over $3 million needs to go. Assuming that $72 millionish payroll is going to be a real thing we have $2.5 million to sign Jarry, a defenseman and three forwards. Even plugging in Jospeh, Poulin, Legare and Bellerive that leaves pretty much $0 for Jarry.

So the two biggest wastes in cap space for what they do is Bjugstad and Johnson. I’m not sure if there’s a team that covers Murray enough and has the cap space to take all three even if it’s for a 2nd rounder this year.
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby KG on Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:25 pm

Friedman speculating Pens will go after Domi, again. This off season. He said JR went after him a few years ago and went for again this last trade deadline.
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby Jim on Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:28 pm

DelPen wrote:But how much will you need to spend to replace the minutes Letang plays? Despite his brain dead play at times he is usually a solid guy who just eats minutes.

You simply demonstrate good time management in the deployment of your defense. Something that hasn't happened since Sullivan came to town.

DelPen wrote:Malkin isn’t going anywhere unless he wants too.

Yeah... and?

DelPen wrote:Bjugstad has more value as a 3rd line center when he plays and won’t count against the cap when he’s on LTIR anyways.

The discussion is salary spending, not cap. Salary is going to be $5.2M. Not sure what insurance would pay if injured.

DelPen wrote:Hornqvist getting traded will be as bad as when Hagelin was traded and that was one of the biggest mistakes Rutherford made. But he might be the guy.

I like the guy more than the majority do, but if salary needs to go, you look at who makes $.

DelPen wrote:I doubt Pettersson gets moved but stranger things have happened.

$4M+ in salary.

DelPen wrote:So the two biggest wastes in cap space for what they do is Bjugstad and Johnson.

I still push Johnson to retire and hire him on as a scout or whatever. His salaries the next 3 years are $3M, $3M, $2.5M (already paid $4M, $4M) What do scouts or assistant coaches make?
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby Pens4Life on Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:31 pm

For a start, GET a NEW coach, trade Letang, Bjugstad,Petterson and JJ, dont re-sign Murray.. dont re-sign any UFA. Keep McCann for wing spot, get some fresh young blood in there with Poulin and Jospeh.
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Re: Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:41 pm

Jim wrote:
DelPen wrote:But how much will you need to spend to replace the minutes Letang plays? Despite his brain dead play at times he is usually a solid guy who just eats minutes.

You simply demonstrate good time management in the deployment of your defense. Something that hasn't happened since Sullivan came to town.

DelPen wrote:Malkin isn’t going anywhere unless he wants too.

Yeah... and?

DelPen wrote:Bjugstad has more value as a 3rd line center when he plays and won’t count against the cap when he’s on LTIR anyways.

The discussion is salary spending, not cap. Salary is going to be $5.2M. Not sure what insurance would pay if injured.

DelPen wrote:Hornqvist getting traded will be as bad as when Hagelin was traded and that was one of the biggest mistakes Rutherford made. But he might be the guy.

I like the guy more than the majority do, but if salary needs to go, you look at who makes $.

DelPen wrote:I doubt Pettersson gets moved but stranger things have happened.

$4M+ in salary.

DelPen wrote:So the two biggest wastes in cap space for what they do is Bjugstad and Johnson.

I still push Johnson to retire and hire him on as a scout or whatever. His salaries the next 3 years are $3M, $3M, $2.5M (already paid $4M, $4M) What do scouts or assistant coaches make?


Scouts make 100k if they are lucky
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