2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby longtimefan on Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:46 pm

https://theathletic.com/2163244/2020/10 ... uins-news/

Rossi sheds no light on the Karmanos firing, even though that was the tease in his headline. He did discuss Tallon however. I was unaware that Tallon had a relationship with Lemieux. Obviously, that's huge in giving any credence to his rumored hiring.


Dale Tallon has emerged as a candidate to join the Penguins in some capacity, multiple team and league sources said. A former GM with Chicago and Florida (more recently), Tallon was the primary architect of the Blackhawks’ 2010 Cup club, though he had been demoted from GM to a senior advisor about a year before Chicago’s title run.


Tallon, 70, is only 16 months younger than Rutherford. In addition to being longtime friends and peers, Tallon and Rutherford share ties to the Penguins as former players. Another factor working in Tallon’s favor for a potential role with the Penguins is his good standing with Lemieux, a team and league source said.

“He has a couple big relationships in Pittsburgh,” a league source said.


He also scuttles thoughts about Botterill returning.

Botterill has not been approached by the Penguins about any job, a team and league source said. He was associate GM for most of Rutherford’s first three seasons before assuming the GM role with Buffalo, a job from which he was fired in June.

Botterill, who is still being paid by the Sabres, is thought to favor spending much, if not the entirety, of the upcoming season not working for any NHL team, two league sources said.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby Skatingpen on Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:01 pm

Good to see them potentially bringing young fresh thinkers......
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby murphydump55 on Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:52 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:Tallon - the author of the worst goaltending contract in the league. The author of one of the worst contracts in the league, that hopefully the Pens can get some value out of.

He’s got a poor track record of drafting, especially in Florida. Yes drafting is a crapshoot, but you’d think he’d at least get lucky once in a while. Didn’t he recently draft a goaltender with his first pick right after signing Bobrovsky to a 10 year deal? Well he likes goaltenders, maybe that’s why Rutherford likes him.

He’s made some bad deals as well, but nothing worse than handing Vegas 2/3 of their top line. Yeesh. Oh and David Bolland as well, another head scratcher. At least he unloaded his horrible pick of Crowse with the Bolland contract.

Please don’t bring him in, please.

So, I don't think any of know for sure, but being down here in Florida and a little closer to the Panthers, here are a few of my thoughts on your statements:

--I think it is hard to pin the entire Bob contract on Tallon. I have no proof, but, that sounds like something that came from above his head. My view is, Florida initially wanted both Panarin and Bob. Florida didn't go high enough on Panarin, so they were forced to go higher on Bob. Again, no proof of this, but, that's my theory...that this wasn't all Tallon's idea.

--I'm not sure I see the drafting as a problem either. 2010, his first year....Gudbranson, Bjugstad, Petrovic, Donskoi, and Hyman were all FL picks. 2011, Huberdeau and Trocheck. 2012, Matheson. 2013, Barkov and Weegar. 2014 Ekblad. 2015 Crouse and Malgin. Gudbranson, Bjugstad, Huberdeau, Trochek, Matheson, Barkov, and Ekblad were all solid picks. Weegar was a 7th. Trocheck was a 3rd. Ekblad, Barkov, Huberdeau, and Gudbranson were their only lottery picks under Tallon. Barkov and Huberdeau were hits. Ekblad was a consensus #1 that didn't live up to his status. He's still a top 4, but, he isn't a #1 d-man. Gudbranson was a solid pick at that time. The next 4 players drafted after Gudbranson weren't exactly franchise players either (Ryan Johansen, Nino Niederrieter, Brett Connolly, Jeff Skinner).

--The Vegas stuff...pretty sure that was above his head and/or part of the Tom Rowe coup. Someone in the org didn't want to pay Marchessault and Smith and/or was afraid of what they might get in arbitration. This was right around when Tallon got bumped out of the GM role and into an advisor


Good contracts: Barkov and Huberdeau. He banked on both of those guys improving, and won. 5.9M for Barkov, who had 96 points in 2018-2019, is a phenomenal value. Huberdeau, also at 5.9M, also had 92 points that year. Only Kucherov's 128 points that season at a 4.67M AAV was better point output for a lower cap hit.

Bad contacts....there have been several. Bob is bad. Ekblad is considered a bad deal. The Bolland deal (another Chicago alum) was poor as well.

Gamble contracts: Matheson was a gamble, very much like Barkov and Huberdeau....or my comparison of Olli Maatta. Matheson played great to earn that contract, but hasn't played well since.

All that said, I'm not a huge Tallon fan overall. I don't see the point of adding a guy who is a little less than a year younger than GMJR. He's not a great successor. You want to add him to some advisor role or hockey ops role, great, but leave the assistant GM jobs to the younger guys who could be groomed as replacements.


You don't see the drafting as a problem, I don't know,

In 2010 the Panthers had 3 1st round picks. 3rd, 19th, and 25th. They ended up with Gudbranson, Bjugstad, and Howden. Some of the names that they could have had included: Johansen, Neiderreiter, Skinner, Granlund, Fowler, Schwartz, Taresenko, K Hayes, Kuznetsov, Coyle, Nelson. In the second round they had 2 picks in the top 5 and passed on Faulk to select McFarland and Petrovic. Not a very good draft when there was a lot of talent available. Nothing is guaranteed, but you'd think he might get lucky once out of those 5 picks.

Again, the draft is a bit of a crapshoot, but to come out of that draft with what they did, leaves a lot to be desired. Yes he's picked guys like Ekblad, Huberdeau, and Barkov, but those guys were all top 3 and you should be able to get a top player with that pick. Gudbranson also went 3rd. Yikes. Crouse was a lousy pick, but granted there were a lot of weird picks in that draft. Nonetheless, he once again missed out on some dynamite players including Boeser, Barzal, Connor, Chabot, etc. Trochek was a good get in the 4th round for him in 2011. Donskoi and Hyman were decent late finds as well, but the Hyman trade was blech, especially when he apparently told them he wasn't going to sign with them and they drafted him anyway.

His paperwork foul up with the Blackhawks was bush league and on par with Rutherford not allowing his team to dress a full roster. The Bolland contract was awful and one that many could see coming, much like the Johnson contract. He let Grabner go on waivers, who then went on to have some pretty productive years in New York and has carved himself out a nice career in the role he plays. He too has also made some really bad free agent signings, even in Chicago, not just Florida. I'm not a fan of adding his input in that area to Rutherford lol

No GM is perfect and he's made some good moves as well, but I'm just not a fan of bringing him on board with Rutherford (if they do).
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby longtimefan on Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:07 pm

murphydump55 wrote:In 2010 the Panthers had 3 1st round picks. 3rd, 19th, and 25th. They ended up with Gudbranson, Bjugstad, and Howden. Some of the names that they could have had included: Johansen, Neiderreiter, Skinner, Granlund, Fowler, Schwartz, Taresenko, K Hayes, Kuznetsov, Coyle, Nelson. In the second round they had 2 picks in the top 5 and passed on Faulk to select McFarland and Petrovic. Not a very good draft when there was a lot of talent available. Nothing is guaranteed, but you'd think he might get lucky once out of those 5 picks.


The draft tends to be a crapshoot under the best of circumstances. Unless there's generational players available. Like Lemieux, Ovechkin, Malkin, Crosby, McDavid. I'd argue that the best player eligible to be drafted in 2010 was Artemi Panarin, who went undrafted in both 2010 and 2011. Mark Stone went 178th overall. The Pens won a cup in Staal's 3rd season, and he was a 2nd overall pick. But I would argue that Toews, Backstrom, and Kessel have all been better players. The only fair way to judge a draft is to look at what every team did. And very few people have time to do that. You're dealing with 18 year old kids. That's often too early to identify what a player will become. Which is why everyone missed so badly on Panarin and Stone.

I would bet that if you analyzed every NHL GM under a microscope you could make a case where they miss more often than they hit. There's no disputing Tallon made mistakes, but so did everybody else. He was the architect of the Hawks. No one can dispute the team he put together. He was the GM until July of 2009, and the Hawks won their first cup less than a year later. He's the one who signed Hossa, who was the finishing touch to their run.

His tenure in Fla gives the best look at his strengths and weaknesses. He built them into a playoff team, then got bumped upstairs. He wasn't great at negotiating contracts, and he made administrative mistakes. But after Rowe's failure, he was put back in the GM's chair. When he was, the owner made very clear he was always in charge of personnel decisions because it was his strength. They recognized his weaknesses, but found his strengths too valuable to discard. If not for the controversy this summer, it's possible he'd still be in charge.

The Panthers posted a 47–26–9 in 2015–16, but were eliminated from the playoffs in the first round by the New York Islanders in six games. The team began the 2016–17 in last place in the Atlantic Division with an 11–10–1 record. On November 28, 2016, the Panthers fired head coach Gerard Gallant and moved general manager Tom Rowe to fill the vacancy. Darren Dreger of TSN reported that Tallon would return to "taking a day-today management and player management player personnel decisions." However, Vincent Viola, the team's owner, refuted Dregar's report of organizational changes, and clarified that "[Tallon] has always had final say over hockey decisions." He added, "What we had done is bifurcate Dale from some things he didn't need to worry about anymore [negotiating contracts, for example]."

On April 10, 2017, the Panthers announced that Tallon would return as the general manager after his successor Rowe was demoted from the role


Micromanaging is easy. The big picture tells the tale. He procured a lot of talent for one dynasty, and got the Panthers to a level that they hadn't approached in over two decades. People are getting bent out of shape because of tunnel vision and micromanagement. Tallon has a strong reputation for player procurement.

He doesn't have to be the only person added. In fact, he won't be. They've already added Daley. He wasn't given the title of asst GM, but his job description reads like a dual asst GM, asst coach position.

The team said Daley will assist in player evaluations at both the NHL and minor league levels and help the coaching staff during games.


It also was pointed out that Daley will report directly to JR. It doesn't sound too different from how Ron Francis got started.

Following a career in which he established himself as the greatest player in Hurricanes franchise history, Francis re-joined the organization in November 2006 as the team's director of player development. He was promoted to assistant general manager on Oct. 4, 2007, but returned to the team's locker room on Dec. 3, 2008, when he joined Paul Maurice behind the bench as associate head coach. While serving as a coach, Francis maintained a voice in the Hurricanes' front office decision-making, serving as the team's director of player personnel. He returned to the front office full-time in June 2011, accepting the role of director of hockey operations.


I don't see the negatives to bringing Tallon onboard. He's got a lot of experience, and the Hawks will be his greatest legacy. He's not being brought in to handle contract negotiations, or administrative tasks. He's another voice. I honestly doubt he will carry the title of asst GM. It's very possible no one carries that title. Which doesn't matter. It's just a title. Last summer he added Cullen, this year Daley. First they need to be able to do the job, then they have to figure out how they like it. That's your young blood. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Scott Young promoted. If he's interested.

Sure, they could bring in someone younger with a track record. But why would that ultimately be more successful? JR hired Maurice and Laviolette as young, unknown coaches. Both speak of him in glowing terms. As do Francis and Guerin. Tallon is not being groomed as a successor. You don't have to have a successor hand picked. Most teams don't. The Pens never have. By the same token, by the time JR retires we may be looking at someone like Daley, Cullen, or Young. Tallon won't be the only hire if they in fact hire him. He already isn't with the Daley hiring.
Last edited by longtimefan on Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby longtimefan on Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:20 pm

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nhl/re ... r-BB1arYJk

Bertuzzzi is the first player to wait for an arbitration award. He got $3.5M for one year. The Wings had submitted an offer of $3.15, and Betrtuzzi had requested $4.25M. Since it's only for one season, he is eligible again next year. After that, he's a UFA. So the Wings need to figure out what to do long term, or risk him leaving after two more seasons.

Also, Haydn Fleury signs for #1.3M x 2 ahead of his November 8th hearing. There's only seven hearings still scheduled. They are Victor Olofsson, Warren Foegele, Ryan Strome, Brendan Lemieux, Ryan Pulock, Christian Jaros, and MacKenzie Weegar. Once those cases are settled, there will be another level of clarity which may loosen the current logjam.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby Hatrick on Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:51 am

longtimefan wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:In 2010 the Panthers had 3 1st round picks. 3rd, 19th, and 25th. They ended up with Gudbranson, Bjugstad, and Howden. Some of the names that they could have had included: Johansen, Neiderreiter, Skinner, Granlund, Fowler, Schwartz, Taresenko, K Hayes, Kuznetsov, Coyle, Nelson. In the second round they had 2 picks in the top 5 and passed on Faulk to select McFarland and Petrovic. Not a very good draft when there was a lot of talent available. Nothing is guaranteed, but you'd think he might get lucky once out of those 5 picks.


The draft tends to be a crapshoot under the best of circumstances. Unless there's generational players available. Like Lemieux, Ovechkin, Malkin, Crosby, McDavid. I'd argue that the best player eligible to be drafted in 2010 was Artemi Panarin, who went undrafted in both 2010 and 2011. Mark Stone went 178th overall. The Pens won a cup in Staal's 3rd season, and he was a 2nd overall pick. But I would argue that Toews, Backstrom, and Kessel have all been better players. The only fair way to judge a draft is to look at what every team did. And very few people have time to do that. You're dealing with 18 year old kids. That's often too early to identify what a player will become. Which is why everyone missed so badly on Panarin and Stone.

I would bet that if you analyzed every NHL GM under a microscope you could make a case where they miss more often than they hit. There's no disputing Tallon made mistakes, but so did everybody else. He was the architect of the Hawks. No one can dispute the team he put together. He was the GM until July of 2009, and the Hawks won their first cup less than a year later. He's the one who signed Hossa, who was the finishing touch to their run.

His tenure in Fla gives the best look at his strengths and weaknesses. He built them into a playoff team, then got bumped upstairs. He wasn't great at negotiating contracts, and he made administrative mistakes. But after Rowe's failure, he was put back in the GM's chair. When he was, the owner made very clear he was always in charge of personnel decisions because it was his strength. They recognized his weaknesses, but found his strengths too valuable to discard. If not for the controversy this summer, it's possible he'd still be in charge.

The Panthers posted a 47–26–9 in 2015–16, but were eliminated from the playoffs in the first round by the New York Islanders in six games. The team began the 2016–17 in last place in the Atlantic Division with an 11–10–1 record. On November 28, 2016, the Panthers fired head coach Gerard Gallant and moved general manager Tom Rowe to fill the vacancy. Darren Dreger of TSN reported that Tallon would return to "taking a day-today management and player management player personnel decisions." However, Vincent Viola, the team's owner, refuted Dregar's report of organizational changes, and clarified that "[Tallon] has always had final say over hockey decisions." He added, "What we had done is bifurcate Dale from some things he didn't need to worry about anymore [negotiating contracts, for example]."

On April 10, 2017, the Panthers announced that Tallon would return as the general manager after his successor Rowe was demoted from the role


Micromanaging is easy. The big picture tells the tale. He procured a lot of talent for one dynasty, and got the Panthers to a level that they hadn't approached in over two decades. People are getting bent out of shape because of tunnel vision and micromanagement. Tallon has a strong reputation for player procurement.

He doesn't have to be the only person added. In fact, he won't be. They've already added Daley. He wasn't given the title of asst GM, but his job description reads like a dual asst GM, asst coach position.

The team said Daley will assist in player evaluations at both the NHL and minor league levels and help the coaching staff during games.


It also was pointed out that Daley will report directly to JR. It doesn't sound too different from how Ron Francis got started.

Following a career in which he established himself as the greatest player in Hurricanes franchise history, Francis re-joined the organization in November 2006 as the team's director of player development. He was promoted to assistant general manager on Oct. 4, 2007, but returned to the team's locker room on Dec. 3, 2008, when he joined Paul Maurice behind the bench as associate head coach. While serving as a coach, Francis maintained a voice in the Hurricanes' front office decision-making, serving as the team's director of player personnel. He returned to the front office full-time in June 2011, accepting the role of director of hockey operations.


I don't see the negatives to bringing Tallon onboard. He's got a lot of experience, and the Hawks will be his greatest legacy. He's not being brought in to handle contract negotiations, or administrative tasks. He's another voice. I honestly doubt he will carry the title of asst GM. It's very possible no one carries that title. Which doesn't matter. It's just a title. Last summer he added Cullen, this year Daley. First they need to be able to do the job, then they have to figure out how they like it. That's your young blood. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Scott Young promoted. If he's interested.

Sure, they could bring in someone younger with a track record. But why would that ultimately be more successful? JR hired Maurice and Laviolette as young, unknown coaches. Both speak of him in glowing terms. As do Francis and Guerin. Tallon is not being groomed as a successor. You don't have to have a successor hand picked. Most teams don't. The Pens never have. By the same token, by the time JR retires we may be looking at someone like Daley, Cullen, or Young. Tallon won't be the only hire if they in fact hire him. He already isn't with the Daley hiring.

even if its true he is bad at drafting, we won't need to worry about that. GMJR will make sure there is no first round picks to use.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby KG on Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:24 pm

Looks like Galchenyuk to Ottawa 1 year $1mill. Amazing how far he’s gone down over the last few years.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby sjnhiils on Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:53 pm

Sort of Pens related so I thought it was ok to post. Everyone is very familiar with Sid's ocd tendencies but google Colin Wilson's "Things you can't See." I guess its true that you never realize what some guys go through. And to think I get upset with myself after a dek hockey game!
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby Skatingpen on Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:03 pm

sjnhiils wrote:Sort of Pens related so I thought it was ok to post. Everyone is very familiar with Sid's ocd tendencies but google Colin Wilson's "Things you can't See." I guess its true that you never realize what some guys go through. And to think I get upset with myself after a dek hockey game!


Great article
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:48 am

Rumors are circulating Edmonton wants another defenseman. Why not trade Rikkola to them and bump up POJ. After this we can sign Haula to a one year $2M deal.

https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/2086313


Thoughts?
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby pronovost19 on Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:48 am

Wow.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby pronovost19 on Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:56 am

Skatingpen wrote:
sjnhiils wrote:Sort of Pens related so I thought it was ok to post. Everyone is very familiar with Sid's ocd tendencies but google Colin Wilson's "Things you can't See." I guess its true that you never realize what some guys go through. And to think I get upset with myself after a dek hockey game!


Great article


The Daniel Carcillo one is wow too.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby Steve Dave on Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:39 am

Pensfan4life8771 wrote:Rumors are circulating Edmonton wants another defenseman. Why not trade Rikkola to them and bump up POJ. After this we can sign Haula to a one year $2M deal.

https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/2086313


Thoughts?

Riikola to Edm, Joseph brought up, Lafferty sent down and Haula brought in @ $2 mil would leave about $300k in cap space.
Last edited by Steve Dave on Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby sjnhiils on Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:49 am

Pensfan4life8771 wrote:Rumors are circulating Edmonton wants another defenseman. Why not trade Rikkola to them and bump up POJ. After this we can sign Haula to a one year $2M deal.

https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/2086313


Thoughts?

Yea, I saw that Klefbom might be out long term. You're only saving $400k by that move though. Maybe Petterrson for Puljujarvi. That saves $2.8 mil that you can put to Haula. After Tierney signed a 2 year $3.5 aav deal, I don't think Haula will take anything under $3 mil.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby pens_CT on Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:29 am

sjnhiils wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:Rumors are circulating Edmonton wants another defenseman. Why not trade Rikkola to them and bump up POJ. After this we can sign Haula to a one year $2M deal.

https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/2086313


Thoughts?

Yea, I saw that Klefbom might be out long term. You're only saving $400k by that move though. Maybe Petterrson for Puljujarvi. That saves $2.8 mil that you can put to Haula. After Tierney signed a 2 year $3.5 aav deal, I don't think Haula will take anything under $3 mil.


Well its 3 weeks since free agency started, if Haula wants 3 million then I doubt he's going to a team that will be a playoff contender since many of those teams are near or over the cap limit currently. Maybe a bottom feeder signs him to a one year deal at that amount and then gambles he plays well enough to be flipped at the deadline for a pick.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby longtimefan on Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:41 am

sjnhiils wrote:
Pensfan4life8771 wrote:Rumors are circulating Edmonton wants another defenseman. Why not trade Rikkola to them and bump up POJ. After this we can sign Haula to a one year $2M deal.

https://www.capfriendly.com/armchair-gm/team/2086313


Thoughts?

Yea, I saw that Klefbom might be out long term. You're only saving $400k by that move though. Maybe Petterrson for Puljujarvi. That saves $2.8 mil that you can put to Haula. After Tierney signed a 2 year $3.5 aav deal, I don't think Haula will take anything under $3 mil.


I don't think Tierney really applies because his number was to stave off arbitration. I read that Haula has resisted signing a below market value deal. The other issue is the concerns about his knee. He had some problems with it last season, and missed most of the previous one after the injury. If he's looking for more than a year, it complicates things further. It seems that any movement in the UFA market is wait and see. LTIR will play a role to open up cap space, like Edmonton's situation. Even that is in a state of flux because of the uncertainly of when the season will begin. We keep penciling ZAR to start the season on LTIR, but he could be back if the season gets pushed back until March. There's a wait and see attitude with a lot of the UFA's waiting to see who can clear cap space. There's just not many teams that have the cap space to make a commitment right now. These guys may be waiting until training camps open, whenever that is. Hoffman's agent said they are prepared to wait it out.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby brwi on Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:29 pm

longtimefan wrote: There's just not many teams that have the cap space to make a commitment right now. These guys may be waiting until training camps open, whenever that is. Hoffman's agent said they are prepared to wait it out.


By "wait it out," I wonder if guys like Hoffman and Vatanen coming off contracts paying 5.1mil and 4.875mil respectively might just sit out the season and wait until next fall. Unless they are using Jack Johnson's parents as financial advisors, they should be able to afford the short-term discomfort of no paycheck because accepting partial pay for a partial season from a team/city you don't want to be a part of and playing what is sure to be a compressed schedule that will suck doesn't make a lot of sense. Plus, by taking a 1yr reduced deal every GM will try to use that as a baseline for what they'll offer you when a normal hockey season starts back and teams you'd like to play for should have more cap space and flexibility.

Hoffman is 29 and Vatanen is 30. Their next deal is supposed to be their last chance to really get paid good $$$ with term. Taking a reduced offer in both $$$ and term is something that unless they REALLY desperately need the paycheck makes little financial sense for them. Haula's situation is different as his past contracts have been for much less dollars and there is some question now on what you are getting with him. I think he ends up somewhere on a COVID-special lesser contract than the 3mil he is rumored to want.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby longtimefan on Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:55 pm

brwi wrote:
longtimefan wrote: There's just not many teams that have the cap space to make a commitment right now. These guys may be waiting until training camps open, whenever that is. Hoffman's agent said they are prepared to wait it out.


By "wait it out," I wonder if guys like Hoffman and Vatanen coming off contracts paying 5.1mil and 4.875mil respectively might just sit out the season and wait until next fall. Unless they are using Jack Johnson's parents as financial advisors, they should be able to afford the short-term discomfort of no paycheck because accepting partial pay for a partial season from a team/city you don't want to be a part of and playing what is sure to be a compressed schedule that will suck doesn't make a lot of sense. Plus, by taking a 1yr reduced deal every GM will try to use that as a baseline for what they'll offer you when a normal hockey season starts back and teams you'd like to play for should have more cap space and flexibility.

Hoffman is 29 and Vatanen is 30. Their next deal is supposed to be their last chance to really get paid good $$$ with term. Taking a reduced offer in both $$$ and term is something that unless they REALLY desperately need the paycheck makes little financial sense for them. Haula's situation is different as his past contracts have been for much less dollars and there is some question now on what you are getting with him. I think he ends up somewhere on a COVID-special lesser contract than the 3mil he is rumored to want.


The cap isn't going to go up though. Hoffman has said he'd take a one year deal, but he wants $6M. Haula and Vatanen are in different situations because of their injury history. I'm not sure anybody wants to gamble more than a year on them with the current climate. They seem to be willing to wait and see if something breaks, but that may mean waiting until camps open. They may be forced to sign for a year to prove they can stay healthy.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby longtimefan on Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:18 am

It's gonna be a while before there's true clarity with this offseason. A lot of teams still have some juggling to do to become cap compliant. Some name free agents still looking for jobs. Not knowing when the season will start complicates things further. For instance, ZAR should start on LTIR, but the further the season gets pushed back, the more chance he'll be ready for camp or shortly thereafter. There's also a chance for a surprise move. A late UFA signing, or maybe a trade. Those look increasingly unlikely. The focus for the Pens seems to be more on the management side now. They moved out Karmanos, brought in Daley, look like they'll bring Tallon on board in some capacity.

I take off season power rankings with a grain of salt. Especially when they're written while the off season is still in a state of flux. But there's nothing else going on, so I figured I'd take a look at the Athletic's first power ratings for the new season. Tampa is predictably 1st, but there are a ton of questions with their cap situation. It broke teams down into tiers. Cup favorites, Cup contenders, darkhorses, playoff teams, bubble teams, outside looking in, not a playoff team, bottom feeders, lottery contenders, and lottery favorites. It gives an outside perspective of how the Pens are viewed. At least by the Athletic's writers, as well as their algorithmic model. Which can be much different than how we see them. Sometimes it's best to take a step back and try to remove our personal passions and biases.

https://theathletic.com/2159626/2020/10 ... 20rankings

It assigns a point total for each team, and the Bolts were favorites averaging 9.8, with the Avs just behind at 9.7. They were rated as the favorites. The next tier are Cup contenders, and Vegas (9.0), Boston (8.9), and Toronto (8.4), make up this tier. The next tier are the darkhorses, which are led by St Louis at 8.1. The Pens are next, with a rating of 7th overall, and 1st in their division. Which isn't the impression I get from reading the boards for the last 3 months. They come in at 8.0, and are followed by Philly and Carolina, who both come in at 7.9. As far as the rest of the division, the Caps are the only other one in this tier with a 7.3. Bubble teams are Isles and Rangers at 6.1, and the Jackets at 6.0. The Devils bring up the rear as a bottom feeder at 2.8.

Again, these are worthless, especially at this point with so many more changes likely. But it's interesting that, despite all the turmoil, the Pens are still rated 7th. Here's the excerpt about the team.

The Leafs were the team my model was second highest on relative to the staff rating — the Penguins were the first. Every offseason I find myself feeling a bit shocked by the discourse surrounding the Penguins and it’s an interesting lesson in how the playoffs can shape perception. There are a number of people who think the end is near for the Penguins after another embarrassing postseason loss, this time in the play-in round to the East’s No. 12 seed. This is an older group and it’s natural to think that the clock is ticking, especially after seeing what happened to the Sharks last year and the way Chicago and Los Angeles have both declined in recent seasons.

The difference is that Pittsburgh has Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin, and the Penguins also have depth. Those elite centers still have the ability to carry the Penguins more than the aging stars on the other teams and both still have plenty of gas in the tank. Malkin himself looked MVP-caliber when Crosby was injured last season. The depth around the team’s two top flight centers is also key and it’s how the Penguins survived multiple injuries last season to still play at an above 100-point pace. With better health, Pittsburgh likely gets a bye rather than a play-in series.

The model might be too high on the Penguins; they’re probably not a Cup Contender anymore but Playoff Team feels too low as well. The middle ground feels right.


The consensus being they are a lot closer to contention than a bubble team. If a couple things break right, they could be right in the mix. It's also fascinating to see how it sees the division playing out, with the Pens, Flyers, and Canes the clear top 3. They obviously are not bullish on the Caps, rating them between the top 3 and the Isles, Rangers, and Jackets. The Devils are clearly expected to finish in the basement.

As fans, we tend to overanalyze our team. With only a periphery look at the situation everywhere else. I was surprised by how far they have the Caps falling. And I'm a bit surprised the Pens come in slightly higher than both the Canes and the Flyers. But the conclusion is one we've been aware of for a very long time. The Pens will go as far as Sid and Geno can carry them.

I suspect there will be questions about the conclusion that they are deep, but you have to compare them to the competition. Even if they have a perceived overabundance of potential 4th line types, it's also true they are deep with proven NHL level players. The emergence of Poulin could have a major effect on our perception, as well as McCann finding his scoring touch. There's a lot of projection, but that's true every season. Sometimes we overestimate how well players will perform. Sometimes we underestimate. Certainly their free agent haul of Rodrigues, Jankowski, and Ceci isn't sexy. But all three have had at least modest success at some point, and all three have a degree of talent. The trade acquisitions of Matheson and Kapanen come with some questions, but also a pretty decent ceiling.

Let things play out. The view from the Athletic is they are in a lot better shape than most on the fanbase seems to think. Sometimes you have to take a step back and take a broader look at how they stack up against the competition. Being a darkhorse is not a bad position to start a season.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby Ericf on Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:27 am

Lol....the fact that this article has Toronto as a Cup contender tells you all you need to know about the posers writing this article. The Pens aren’t a Cup contender with that terrible forward depth beyond the first two lines. They are also counting on too many players to “bounce back” or have career years—too many question marks. Not everyone like Rust, Geno, or Jarry is going to have as good a season as last year, and not everyone who had a bad season last year for a different club is going to magically improve just by joining the Pens. The Caps and Pens are quite similar teams in that their best players are old. The Caps just have better forward depth and the Pens have a better backend. They should similarly be ranked as “playoff teams” who have no chance at making it to the Cup finals unless more players than you count have career years
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby ville5 on Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:27 pm

Kahun to Edmonton finalized tomorrow per Friedman.
1 year, $975k, nice deal for Edmonton.
Last edited by ville5 on Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby ville5 on Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:29 pm

https://www.dkpittsburghsports.com/2020 ... -stats-tlh

One of the bigger criticisms of Kasperi Kapanen's game in his short-lived first stint in the Penguins organization was his weak defensive game.

Looking back at Dejan's column on Kapanen from Kapanen's first training camp, he wrote that Kapanen needed to continue to "focus on his backchecking," and that "there were times in that scrimmage when he’d get lost if he didn’t have the puck."

After Kapanen was re-acquired by the Penguins this summer, he was asked how his game has changed during his time in Toronto, and he pointed to the growth in his two-way game.

"When I was drafted I was kind of one-dimensional," he said. "I loved to play on offense, with the puck. Everything else was kind of lacking for me, especially to make that hop to the NHL. I got traded to Toronto and they put me through the AHL process, which looking back on, I'm now grateful for. I'm very grateful that I played with the Marlies for such a long time, so I know how to defend better, which I need to do and still need to be working on. I've been playing the penalty kill for the last three years. I've been more physical and I've been trying to be more gritty."

Kapanen will start next season in the Penguins' top six, possibly on the top line alongside Jake Guentzel and Sidney Crosby. 

Mike Sullivan often talks about the benefits of completing the first line with a well-rounded player who does the "little things" right. Whenever he was asked last season for his rationale in putting Dominik Simon on the top line, he always cited Simon's two-way play. 

Looking at the data from past seasons, that third player on the top line is often someone who is strong at backchecking and forces a lot of turnovers. In 2019-20, Simon averaged 2.79 takeaways per 60 minutes of five-on-five ice time, the second-best rate on the team. In 2018-19, when Simon spent more time on that top line, he averaged 2.27 takeaways per 60 minutes, the fourth-best on the team. In 2017-18, when Conor Sheary was in that spot, he averaged 2.02 takeaways, the second-most of any player who spent the full season in Pittsburgh that year.

Kapanen will look to complement Guentzel and Crosby in that same way, albeit ideally with more offensive production than someone like Simon.

In his last two seasons, Kapanen's takeaway rate was pretty close to the numbers above: 1.76 in 2019-20, and 1.9 in 2018-19.

Looking at film from last season, we can also see more defensive efforts that don't get counted along with those takeaway stats. In this October game against the Canadiens, a backchecking Kapanen skates up the left side of the ice and knocks Max Domi off the puck to break up a two-on-one and send play in the opposite direction:

In another game against the Canadiens in February, Kapanen lifts the stick of Jonathan Drouin and swats the puck away to force another turnover to break up a rush:

Kapanen's incredible speed is an asset in this role, too. A great example of that speed is this backcheck in a November game in the 2018-19 season against the Penguins. Kapanen chases down Carl Hagelin, one of the fastest skaters in the game, and lifts Hagelin's stick to prevent him from getting a shot off:

Toronto's game a month later in Tampa has a good example of Kapanen's two-way game coming together. A Leafs player dumps the puck into the Lightning's zone. Victor Hedman, who is a good five inches and 30 pounds bigger than Kapanen, gets to the puck first and positions his body to to fend off Kapanen and protect the puck. Kapanen knocks Hedman off the puck to keep the puck in the zone. The Leafs turn the puck over, but Kapanen picks off a pass from Nikita Kucherov seconds later to score:
DK site won't let the videos copy and paste.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby Jim on Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:19 am

ville5 wrote:Kahun to Edmonton finalized tomorrow per Friedman.
1 year, $975k, nice deal for Edmonton.


Does he maybe have a really, REALLY, bad attitude?
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby ville5 on Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:49 am

Jim wrote:
ville5 wrote:Kahun to Edmonton finalized tomorrow per Friedman.
1 year, $975k, nice deal for Edmonton.


Does he maybe have a really, REALLY, bad attitude?

He's rather vanilla imo.
And supposedly Draisaitl, a former teammate, vouched for him and tried to get the team to sign him before Chicago did.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby sjnhiils on Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:54 am

ville5 wrote:
Jim wrote:
ville5 wrote:Kahun to Edmonton finalized tomorrow per Friedman.
1 year, $975k, nice deal for Edmonton.


Does he maybe have a really, REALLY, bad attitude?

He's rather vanilla imo.

Then why did you call it a "nice deal?"
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