2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby Hatrick on Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:40 pm

longtimefan wrote:
Hatrick wrote:
longtimefan wrote:Along the same lines as the above post, the Athletic did an analysis of each team's contract efficiency. The Pens take a ton of criticism about how they manage the cap on here. I always believe you can't judge them in a vacuum. You have to consider the league as a hole. They finished #3 on the list, behind only Boston and Colorado.

https://theathletic.com/2166869/2020/11 ... rade-2020/

The Penguins acquired one of the league’s worst contracts in Mike Matheson and somehow moved up on this list compared to last season. That’s hard to do, but it’s partially because at this time last season the team had two defenders under contract with deals just as poor in Jack Johnson and Erik Gudbranson. The outlook there looks a lot better now, especially with the emergence of Marcus Pettersson as a legitimate top-four option on a fair deal (he was an RFA at this time last year).

Up front, the Penguins still hold excellent value with Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin, but it’s the duo’s sidekicks that are bringing in the most value. Jake Guentzel has evolved into one of the game’s best wingers and now has one of the league’s best contracts himself after proving he’s a legitimate point-per-game threat. As for Bryan Rust, he exploded last year and while it’s hard to imagine he can stay at that level, any regression should still find him well north of the $3.5 million he’s being paid. He’s a great player.

The Penguins are a very deep team and while there isn’t an abundance of slam dunk deals, they’re mostly above average and that’s enough to rank highly in a league littered with lesser deals. Even the Brandon Tanev deal doesn’t look as awful after a strong first season in Pittsburgh.


Here's a the explanation of their criteria. I found their opinion of Pettersson above to be especially interesting.

each team is graded based on the same methodology in an attempt to measure which teams are most efficient with the money they spend. The contracts being graded are every healthy, non-ELC skater that my model has a projection for, as well as any dead money a team has on their cap via buyouts, salary retention and cap recapture penalties. That means no RFAs without a deal, no players on an entry-level contract, no players without significant NHL-playing time, no players on LTIR and no goalies. My model currently doesn’t have win projections for goaltenders beyond one season or expected contract value, so they were omitted. Unused cap space is also not part of the equation as there’s no telling exactly how that space would be used. This is just about the value of each contract currently on the books, signed as of Nov. 3.

Each team was graded based on the surplus value they bring in per player (all dead money counts as one) as well as the average probability those deals will provide positive value. Both are based on a player’s age-adjusted projected win output according to GSVA and the uncertainty in that projection for future seasons, along with the cost of a win on the open market. How much each team spends to obtain those wins will also be graded.

The main goal is looking at what teams have on the books. What a player has already done holds no merit. They may have been worth their deal as a whole and been excellent value prior, but that may not matter going forward. Future value means age is exceptionally important in terms of grading each contract, with players peaking between the ages of 22-26 and declining afterward.

Surplus value will depend on term, where more years left offer a larger opportunity to compound value, good or bad. Positive value probability depends on the certainty of a player’s projection, which depends on the size of the sample the projection. Longer term means that uncertainty increases too.

Each contract was graded based on where a player’s combined surplus value and positive value probability fall on the following percentile scale. All contract and roster data is as of Nov. 3.

yeah I cant take any type of report like that seriously if they are saying Pettersson deal is fair. Maybe they are projecting ALOT because they do say its due to future value which is a projection based on age etc. The penguins do have plenty of good contracts that people here don't talk about because we tend to focus on the negatives. (So rather than focusing on how much of a bargain sid and jake and malkin and now rust, we focus on Pettersson and Johnson and Tanev even though Tanev's deal isn't even that bad)

I do not think they are a top 3 or 5 team in terms of cap efficiency but I know there are ALOT of teams leaguewide who seem to be making the same boneheaded cap mistakes so it would not shock me if just having a couple good contracts puts them in the top 10-15.


The thing is, the national consensus has been pretty consistent as seeing MP as a budding top 4 defenseman. Not just the Athletic. I haven't cared for what I've seen as sensationalism by at least the local scribes of the Athletic, namely Yohe and Rossi. At the same time, it's not a loosely put together rumor site or blog. They've got a lot of highly respected writers across both countries. That doesn't make them right, but they aren't bloggers from afar. They have a bit more credibility because of a lot more access. We watch MP a lot closer, and that's going to allow us to focus on his warts. From the outside though, I've consistently found the opinion of MP and his contract to be viewed as fair. Not a steal, but fair.

I don't know if you have a subscription, but, if you do, I encourage you to read the opinions on the other teams. They're pretty transparent about how they arrived at the ratings. I can't copy the whole article, but it's important to not look at things in a black and gold vacuum. Here are some conclusions about the Metro rivals.

The Bluejackets came in at #4.
What was noticeable even at the top of the list is that even the best teams had some bad deals on the books and that’s true of every team, except Columbus. That’s the reason the Blue Jackets rank so high as every single deal is at least average or better at this present time. That’s really hard to do.


The Hurricanes checked in at #11. They were last year's top rated team.
Trading for Brady Skjei is a big part of that as he grades out as having one of the league’s worst contracts. Perhaps a change of scenery will help, but it’s tough to see him at the one-win rate expected of him.

The other major issue is a decline in value for Brett Pesce, who was projected to be worth 1.6 wins at the start of last season, but is at half of that this year. That’s the difference between a high-end No. 2 defender and a decent No. 3. At $4 million AAV, now he finds himself closer to average.

Carolina still has four A-level deals with Teuvo Teravainen leading the way and Jaccob Slavin looking excellent, but there’s not enough value after the team’s main four guys.


The Flyers were at #12.
But that Hayes deal still looms large over the team’s entire cap picture. At the time of signing, Hayes looked like a high-end second-line centre, with the contract having a 38 percent chance of positive value. That’s down all the way to 11 percent now as Hayes’s 2018-19 projection looks more like a one-year flash than anything. His current projection is back to where he was the prior two seasons and that makes his $7 million deal far too pricey. It’s among the league’s worst, but the rest of the team’s cap is efficient enough to rank in the league’s upper half.


The Devils are #17.
The P.K. Subban deal has aged horribly and a change of scenery only furthered his downfall. That was unexpected and leaves the Devils with one of the league’s worst deals. It’s a similar plight with Travis Zajac, but both deals expire within the next two seasons and the Devils are flush with cap space anyway.


The Isles come in at #21.
Neither Anders Lee nor Josh Bailey looks especially likely to live up to their deals, while Jean-Gabriel Pageau is costing a hefty price to be the team’s third pivot. He was excellent in the playoffs but six years at $5 million AAV is tough to swallow for what will be his worst seasons.

The deals for Anthony Beauvillier, Adam Pelech and Scott Mayfield are all good and there’s little doubt Barzal will provide positive value, but overall this is a very grim outlook.


The Caps are #23.
John Carlson’s deal looks nice and Jakub Vrana’s bridge deal will provide excellent value for one more season, but there’s a lot more trouble than meets the eye for this aging group. There’s a high volume of C-grade contracts from recent signings like Justin Schultz and Brenden Dillon to core pieces T.J. Oshie, Tom Wilson and Dmitry Orlov. Oshie was worth every penny in the front half of his extension but is now entering the back half where he’ll likely be less valuable.

That’s perhaps an even bigger issue for the team’s two worst contracts belonging to its top two centres, Evgeny Kuznetsov and Nicklas Backstrom. Kuznetsov’s defence has become a real issue, one that his sublime offence can’t reconcile enough to be worth nearly $8 million. The Backstrom deal is even worse. Freshly minted, it’s hard to argue he’s still a $9 million centre at 32 and that’s only going to get worse. Backstrom uncharacteristically struggled at 5-on-5 last season and that’s a rough sign for the years to come.


The Rangers are #28.
There aren’t many non-ELC deals on the books for the Rangers, but those that are here offer a huge range between great (Mika Zibanejad) and awful (Jacob Trouba). The latter looks to be a big problem for New York as he’s being paid to be a No. 1 defenceman and proved last year that it’s very unlikely he can be that. It’s one of the worst deals in the league. Chris Kreider is near the bottom as well, almost entirely due to how he’s going to age. He’s worth $6.5 million now, but it’s unlikely he’ll continue to be as soon as 2021 – especially with top pick Alexis Lafreniere usurping him in the near future on the left side.


They are just opinions based on a model they created, but they are broader views than we have here as Pens fans. It is obvious that the view from outside of MP is markedly higher than what it is on these boards. Which, even if you don't like him, bodes well. If Matheson bounces back, the team will need to make a decision for the expansion draft. MP won't be unprotected simply because he is seen as having value around the league. If they decide to protect Matheson, it's very likely they can move MP for a reasonable return rather than losing him for nothing. That's a win. We may not agree, but his contract seems to be viewed as fair around the league.

I do not have a subscription, most of those rankings do make sense, although even without ELC I still don't know if I would have the rangers that low. But with the lack of non-ELC contracts I guess one bad contract really pulls the average down.

Out of curiosity who is last, the leafs?
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby longtimefan on Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:50 pm

Toronto was 5th. Here's there reasoning. They rated the Tavares contract the worst. Not the others though.

There is plenty of talk about how Toronto overpaid its three young stars and while that may be very true relative to the RFA market, it’s false relative to their projected on-ice value. Auston Matthews is one of the league’s best players, a tier where salaries are generally depressed. Based on his surplus value, he’s actually one of the better values in the league. William Nylander showed last season he was a bargain at $7 million after scoring 30 goals. David Pastrnak’s cheap contract shouldn’t be the standard.


Last went to the Sharks.

Marc-Edouard Vlasic’s deal already looked awful last season and it looks even worse now, but the bigger issue is the steep drop in value for the other two behemoths on the back end. Brent Burns and Erik Karlsson were the keys to San Jose being a contender and it’s no coincidence the two falling off a cliff last season plays a big role in the team’s drop off. Burns’ deal looked like solid value last season, but he’s dropped into the “D” range thanks to an off-year coupled with his age. Karlsson’s deal looked close to fair market last season, but he too experienced a dramatic drop-off and is right there with Vlasic among the worst contracts in the league. Add Logan Couture’s long and pricey deal and the Sharks’ four largest contracts all rate among the worst in the league. No other team has four contracts in the “D” range and the fact the three other contracts with four or more years left adds to the problem.


A little more to understand the Rangers rating. And also will please many on here. :)

To add insult to injury, the Rangers rid themselves of Marc Staal, only to sign Jack Johnson to a $1.2 million deal that is by my math $3.1 million too much. Not a typo – he hurts the team that bad.

A final note on the Rangers: At $19.6 million, no team has more dead money on the books.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby brwi on Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:28 pm

longtimefan wrote:Last went to the Sharks.

Marc-Edouard Vlasic’s deal already looked awful last season and it looks even worse now, but the bigger issue is the steep drop in value for the other two behemoths on the back end. Brent Burns and Erik Karlsson were the keys to San Jose being a contender and it’s no coincidence the two falling off a cliff last season plays a big role in the team’s drop off. Burns’ deal looked like solid value last season, but he’s dropped into the “D” range thanks to an off-year coupled with his age. Karlsson’s deal looked close to fair market last season, but he too experienced a dramatic drop-off and is right there with Vlasic among the worst contracts in the league. Add Logan Couture’s long and pricey deal and the Sharks’ four largest contracts all rate among the worst in the league. No other team has four contracts in the “D” range and the fact the three other contracts with four or more years left adds to the problem.


It's tough to understand the reasoning of someone who thinks Karlsson's 8 yr/92mil deal at the start of 2019 was "close to fair value." Karlsson was already declining before signing that deal and became the 3rd highest paid player in the NHL. Terrible value then and even worse now.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby pronovost19 on Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:35 am

Just some food for thought on contracts and ticket prices...

You can go back and look at the comments when Hornqvist was resigned. There were folks who said that it was great because at the end of the deal he would be a steal for that price. As is the case, most, including GMs, forget that skills diminish. The way deals should be structured is not $25 million over 5 but (5,4,3,2,1)....$15 million over 5 because the skills diminish. Players should have a decreasing scale over the life of a long contract to make up for diminishing skills. I know that sounds crazy, and maybe the 5-4-3-2-1 example is too "steep'. The average fan has been priced out of games by the booming wages. Everyone is getting paid. We support the product by attending games and buying gear. At some point the bubble has to burst.

Last year I said no mas to Center Ice. I did not miss it, and the Penguins play a ton on national TV. Instead I used that money to do my yearly venture to DC to watch the Pens play the Caps (Feb. 2 I believe it was), and it was well worth it as a one time per year venture. Remember traveling to DC and getting tix in the 200 level boxes for $75 a piece. Those days are gone and tix were $225 this time.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby Jim on Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:55 am

I am a big Hornqvist fan, but I do not remember anyone saying that his contract was great because at the end of the deal he would be a steal for that price.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby FLPensFan on Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:31 pm

pronovost19 wrote:Just some food for thought on contracts and ticket prices...

You can go back and look at the comments when Hornqvist was resigned. There were folks who said that it was great because at the end of the deal he would be a steal for that price. As is the case, most, including GMs, forget that skills diminish. The way deals should be structured is not $25 million over 5 but (5,4,3,2,1)....$15 million over 5 because the skills diminish. Players should have a decreasing scale over the life of a long contract to make up for diminishing skills. I know that sounds crazy, and maybe the 5-4-3-2-1 example is too "steep'. The average fan has been priced out of games by the booming wages. Everyone is getting paid. We support the product by attending games and buying gear. At some point the bubble has to burst.

Last year I said no mas to Center Ice. I did not miss it, and the Penguins play a ton on national TV. Instead I used that money to do my yearly venture to DC to watch the Pens play the Caps (Feb. 2 I believe it was), and it was well worth it as a one time per year venture. Remember traveling to DC and getting tix in the 200 level boxes for $75 a piece. Those days are gone and tix were $225 this time.

I've been saying the bubble is going to burst for the last 3 years or more. Last year was my first year without Center Ice. I also "cut the cord" last year. I found a "gray area" alternative via streaming that I get everything I need for sports at literally 15-20 times less cost per year.

I don't want to get too political or sad state of the world, but, it all goes back to greed. Just like the big corporations who need 10-20M severance packages and get paid 20-50 times what their average employees make, sports is no different. I'm fairly confident that, in a non-COVID world, you could drop ticket prices, drop concession/parking prices, not pay your athletes 10M-30M a year in some sports, and still make a good profit....because, if you drop the player salaries, there is a much bigger profit pool. But owners are too greedy to take a 30M profit instead of 50M profit. Just like 40-50 years ago, you could buy a washer/dryer/fridge/stove/etc that would last you 20-30 years. Today, appliances probably have a 10 year shelf life max, unless you want to shell out more money to fix it then the thing is worth. It's greed. Make more profits...brand reputation is nothing like it used to be. It's become accepted practice.

But, back more on topic. I spend less money on TV and don't feel the need to watch things (other than sports) live anymore. I had Miami Dolphin season tickets for 5 years at two different time periods (once for 3 years, then for 2 years). When I gave up my last set of season tickets 2 years ago, parking at the stadium was $40. Upper level tickets were $60 a piece (I had 3). That's already $280 a game in cost for me and my two boys, not counting food....not counting sitting out in 90 degree South Florida heat....dealing with getting in and out of the stadium, etc. TVs are so good today that, as much as I love seeing live sports, it's not worth almost $300 to go see a football game. Hockey is the same way. When my family goes (my wife will only do baseball or hockey), lower bowl tickets (nobody in my family likes the steepness of the upper deck in BB&T arena) are $75 a piece...$300 right there. No cheap food options unless you eat beforehand. Sodas and pretzels/hotdogs (usually cheapest option) still gonna run you a good $50-80. Parking is another $20 or more. $400-500 for a family to go see ONE game. As a teenager, I remember me and my friends being able to drive down to a Pirate game at 3 Rivers, pay like $10 for parking and $5 for an upper deck ticket...which you could move down later in the game because it was so dead.

I'm surprised the bubble hasn't burst already, but it's coming. The game is pretty much completely unaffordable for lower class people at this point, and is close to moving out of lower middle-class price range. What really hurts is that businesses are spending less and less on sports events these days. I've worked for the same company for 20 plus years, and I believe they have given up all but 1 of their suites in the different major stadiums/arenas here in South Florida.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby Jim on Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:10 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
pronovost19 wrote:Just some food for thought on contracts and ticket prices...

You can go back and look at the comments when Hornqvist was resigned. There were folks who said that it was great because at the end of the deal he would be a steal for that price. As is the case, most, including GMs, forget that skills diminish. The way deals should be structured is not $25 million over 5 but (5,4,3,2,1)....$15 million over 5 because the skills diminish. Players should have a decreasing scale over the life of a long contract to make up for diminishing skills. I know that sounds crazy, and maybe the 5-4-3-2-1 example is too "steep'. The average fan has been priced out of games by the booming wages. Everyone is getting paid. We support the product by attending games and buying gear. At some point the bubble has to burst.

Last year I said no mas to Center Ice. I did not miss it, and the Penguins play a ton on national TV. Instead I used that money to do my yearly venture to DC to watch the Pens play the Caps (Feb. 2 I believe it was), and it was well worth it as a one time per year venture. Remember traveling to DC and getting tix in the 200 level boxes for $75 a piece. Those days are gone and tix were $225 this time.

I've been saying the bubble is going to burst for the last 3 years or more. Last year was my first year without Center Ice. I also "cut the cord" last year. I found a "gray area" alternative via streaming that I get everything I need for sports at literally 15-20 times less cost per year.

I don't want to get too political or sad state of the world, but, it all goes back to greed. Just like the big corporations who need 10-20M severance packages and get paid 20-50 times what their average employees make, sports is no different. I'm fairly confident that, in a non-COVID world, you could drop ticket prices, drop concession/parking prices, not pay your athletes 10M-30M a year in some sports, and still make a good profit....because, if you drop the player salaries, there is a much bigger profit pool. But owners are too greedy to take a 30M profit instead of 50M profit. Just like 40-50 years ago, you could buy a washer/dryer/fridge/stove/etc that would last you 20-30 years. Today, appliances probably have a 10 year shelf life max, unless you want to shell out more money to fix it then the thing is worth. It's greed. Make more profits...brand reputation is nothing like it used to be. It's become accepted practice.

But, back more on topic. I spend less money on TV and don't feel the need to watch things (other than sports) live anymore. I had Miami Dolphin season tickets for 5 years at two different time periods (once for 3 years, then for 2 years). When I gave up my last set of season tickets 2 years ago, parking at the stadium was $40. Upper level tickets were $60 a piece (I had 3). That's already $280 a game in cost for me and my two boys, not counting food....not counting sitting out in 90 degree South Florida heat....dealing with getting in and out of the stadium, etc. TVs are so good today that, as much as I love seeing live sports, it's not worth almost $300 to go see a football game. Hockey is the same way. When my family goes (my wife will only do baseball or hockey), lower bowl tickets (nobody in my family likes the steepness of the upper deck in BB&T arena) are $75 a piece...$300 right there. No cheap food options unless you eat beforehand. Sodas and pretzels/hotdogs (usually cheapest option) still gonna run you a good $50-80. Parking is another $20 or more. $400-500 for a family to go see ONE game. As a teenager, I remember me and my friends being able to drive down to a Pirate game at 3 Rivers, pay like $10 for parking and $5 for an upper deck ticket...which you could move down later in the game because it was so dead.

I'm surprised the bubble hasn't burst already, but it's coming. The game is pretty much completely unaffordable for lower class people at this point, and is close to moving out of lower middle-class price range. What really hurts is that businesses are spending less and less on sports events these days. I've worked for the same company for 20 plus years, and I believe they have given up all but 1 of their suites in the different major stadiums/arenas here in South Florida.


IKEA... disposable furniture.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby lemieuxReturns on Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:24 pm

pronovost19 wrote:Just some food for thought on contracts and ticket prices...

You can go back and look at the comments when Hornqvist was resigned. There were folks who said that it was great because at the end of the deal he would be a steal for that price. As is the case, most, including GMs, forget that skills diminish. The way deals should be structured is not $25 million over 5 but (5,4,3,2,1)....$15 million over 5 because the skills diminish. Players should have a decreasing scale over the life of a long contract to make up for diminishing skills. I know that sounds crazy, and maybe the 5-4-3-2-1 example is too "steep'. The average fan has been priced out of games by the booming wages. Everyone is getting paid. We support the product by attending games and buying gear. At some point the bubble has to burst.

Last year I said no mas to Center Ice. I did not miss it, and the Penguins play a ton on national TV. Instead I used that money to do my yearly venture to DC to watch the Pens play the Caps (Feb. 2 I believe it was), and it was well worth it as a one time per year venture. Remember traveling to DC and getting tix in the 200 level boxes for $75 a piece. Those days are gone and tix were $225 this time.



Oh man. Lived in the DC area for a long time (too long). Tickets were way cheaper than $75 a piece. I remember getting them for $40 and that came with a free hotdog, pop, and Washington Capitals hat (which I would give to a kid when riding back on the Metro).
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby lemieuxReturns on Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:31 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
pronovost19 wrote:Just some food for thought on contracts and ticket prices...

You can go back and look at the comments when Hornqvist was resigned. There were folks who said that it was great because at the end of the deal he would be a steal for that price. As is the case, most, including GMs, forget that skills diminish. The way deals should be structured is not $25 million over 5 but (5,4,3,2,1)....$15 million over 5 because the skills diminish. Players should have a decreasing scale over the life of a long contract to make up for diminishing skills. I know that sounds crazy, and maybe the 5-4-3-2-1 example is too "steep'. The average fan has been priced out of games by the booming wages. Everyone is getting paid. We support the product by attending games and buying gear. At some point the bubble has to burst.

Last year I said no mas to Center Ice. I did not miss it, and the Penguins play a ton on national TV. Instead I used that money to do my yearly venture to DC to watch the Pens play the Caps (Feb. 2 I believe it was), and it was well worth it as a one time per year venture. Remember traveling to DC and getting tix in the 200 level boxes for $75 a piece. Those days are gone and tix were $225 this time.

I've been saying the bubble is going to burst for the last 3 years or more. Last year was my first year without Center Ice. I also "cut the cord" last year. I found a "gray area" alternative via streaming that I get everything I need for sports at literally 15-20 times less cost per year.

I don't want to get too political or sad state of the world, but, it all goes back to greed. Just like the big corporations who need 10-20M severance packages and get paid 20-50 times what their average employees make, sports is no different. I'm fairly confident that, in a non-COVID world, you could drop ticket prices, drop concession/parking prices, not pay your athletes 10M-30M a year in some sports, and still make a good profit....because, if you drop the player salaries, there is a much bigger profit pool. But owners are too greedy to take a 30M profit instead of 50M profit. Just like 40-50 years ago, you could buy a washer/dryer/fridge/stove/etc that would last you 20-30 years. Today, appliances probably have a 10 year shelf life max, unless you want to shell out more money to fix it then the thing is worth. It's greed. Make more profits...brand reputation is nothing like it used to be. It's become accepted practice.

But, back more on topic. I spend less money on TV and don't feel the need to watch things (other than sports) live anymore. I had Miami Dolphin season tickets for 5 years at two different time periods (once for 3 years, then for 2 years). When I gave up my last set of season tickets 2 years ago, parking at the stadium was $40. Upper level tickets were $60 a piece (I had 3). That's already $280 a game in cost for me and my two boys, not counting food....not counting sitting out in 90 degree South Florida heat....dealing with getting in and out of the stadium, etc. TVs are so good today that, as much as I love seeing live sports, it's not worth almost $300 to go see a football game. Hockey is the same way. When my family goes (my wife will only do baseball or hockey), lower bowl tickets (nobody in my family likes the steepness of the upper deck in BB&T arena) are $75 a piece...$300 right there. No cheap food options unless you eat beforehand. Sodas and pretzels/hotdogs (usually cheapest option) still gonna run you a good $50-80. Parking is another $20 or more. $400-500 for a family to go see ONE game. As a teenager, I remember me and my friends being able to drive down to a Pirate game at 3 Rivers, pay like $10 for parking and $5 for an upper deck ticket...which you could move down later in the game because it was so dead.

I'm surprised the bubble hasn't burst already, but it's coming. The game is pretty much completely unaffordable for lower class people at this point, and is close to moving out of lower middle-class price range. What really hurts is that businesses are spending less and less on sports events these days. I've worked for the same company for 20 plus years, and I believe they have given up all but 1 of their suites in the different major stadiums/arenas here in South Florida.


I thought when Trump's tax plan eliminated the entertainment write-off it would have helped bring prices back down to earth. Instead ticket prices seemed to continue to rise and less people attended.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby Cow_Master66 on Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:53 pm

The Penguins are selling out every game so the price is right. I wouldn't pay that much to attend a game because I'm too cheap...I get many tickets for free or maybe I would shell out the cash every once in awhile?

I turn down at least 3 Steelers tickets a year...Even when free I'd rather watch on TV

I probably go to more Pirates games than anything even though I'm not much of a fan. I still enjoy going to the park with the kids, and with the price just bailing whenever we are bored (usually by the 7th inning)...

I'd say the sports experience overall just sucks. Maybe I'm getting old, but I'd typically prefer to just stay home. I've said in other threads the PA at PPG is just beyond annoying and the artificial noise is as well. NFL games suck because it's just so much better on TV, but I'd rather be home so I can change the channel during the 500 commercial breaks (or usually fast forward them cause I'm never live anyway).

TL;DR: Everything sucks :scared:
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby dark_forces on Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:18 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
pronovost19 wrote:Just some food for thought on contracts and ticket prices...

You can go back and look at the comments when Hornqvist was resigned. There were folks who said that it was great because at the end of the deal he would be a steal for that price. As is the case, most, including GMs, forget that skills diminish. The way deals should be structured is not $25 million over 5 but (5,4,3,2,1)....$15 million over 5 because the skills diminish. Players should have a decreasing scale over the life of a long contract to make up for diminishing skills. I know that sounds crazy, and maybe the 5-4-3-2-1 example is too "steep'. The average fan has been priced out of games by the booming wages. Everyone is getting paid. We support the product by attending games and buying gear. At some point the bubble has to burst.

Last year I said no mas to Center Ice. I did not miss it, and the Penguins play a ton on national TV. Instead I used that money to do my yearly venture to DC to watch the Pens play the Caps (Feb. 2 I believe it was), and it was well worth it as a one time per year venture. Remember traveling to DC and getting tix in the 200 level boxes for $75 a piece. Those days are gone and tix were $225 this time.

I've been saying the bubble is going to burst for the last 3 years or more. Last year was my first year without Center Ice. I also "cut the cord" last year. I found a "gray area" alternative via streaming that I get everything I need for sports at literally 15-20 times less cost per year.

I don't want to get too political or sad state of the world, but, it all goes back to greed. Just like the big corporations who need 10-20M severance packages and get paid 20-50 times what their average employees make, sports is no different. I'm fairly confident that, in a non-COVID world, you could drop ticket prices, drop concession/parking prices, not pay your athletes 10M-30M a year in some sports, and still make a good profit....because, if you drop the player salaries, there is a much bigger profit pool. But owners are too greedy to take a 30M profit instead of 50M profit. Just like 40-50 years ago, you could buy a washer/dryer/fridge/stove/etc that would last you 20-30 years. Today, appliances probably have a 10 year shelf life max, unless you want to shell out more money to fix it then the thing is worth. It's greed. Make more profits...brand reputation is nothing like it used to be. It's become accepted practice.

But, back more on topic. I spend less money on TV and don't feel the need to watch things (other than sports) live anymore. I had Miami Dolphin season tickets for 5 years at two different time periods (once for 3 years, then for 2 years). When I gave up my last set of season tickets 2 years ago, parking at the stadium was $40. Upper level tickets were $60 a piece (I had 3). That's already $280 a game in cost for me and my two boys, not counting food....not counting sitting out in 90 degree South Florida heat....dealing with getting in and out of the stadium, etc. TVs are so good today that, as much as I love seeing live sports, it's not worth almost $300 to go see a football game. Hockey is the same way. When my family goes (my wife will only do baseball or hockey), lower bowl tickets (nobody in my family likes the steepness of the upper deck in BB&T arena) are $75 a piece...$300 right there. No cheap food options unless you eat beforehand. Sodas and pretzels/hotdogs (usually cheapest option) still gonna run you a good $50-80. Parking is another $20 or more. $400-500 for a family to go see ONE game. As a teenager, I remember me and my friends being able to drive down to a Pirate game at 3 Rivers, pay like $10 for parking and $5 for an upper deck ticket...which you could move down later in the game because it was so dead.

I'm surprised the bubble hasn't burst already, but it's coming. The game is pretty much completely unaffordable for lower class people at this point, and is close to moving out of lower middle-class price range. What really hurts is that businesses are spending less and less on sports events these days. I've worked for the same company for 20 plus years, and I believe they have given up all but 1 of their suites in the different major stadiums/arenas here in South Florida.

Well put. I agree with everything you wrote here. If there's a good thing to come out of all this mess, it's that these owners and people who make money from sports need to back down a little bit, or economics will, at some point, make them back down. I clearly remember when the very best pro hockey players made about 6 million a season, and it scaled down from there. That was only a few players too. I'd like to see salaries revert to that standard. The players still get paid handsomely but not to the ridiculous levels we've become accustomed to.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby ville5 on Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:17 pm

dark_forces wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
pronovost19 wrote:Just some food for thought on contracts and ticket prices...

You can go back and look at the comments when Hornqvist was resigned. There were folks who said that it was great because at the end of the deal he would be a steal for that price. As is the case, most, including GMs, forget that skills diminish. The way deals should be structured is not $25 million over 5 but (5,4,3,2,1)....$15 million over 5 because the skills diminish. Players should have a decreasing scale over the life of a long contract to make up for diminishing skills. I know that sounds crazy, and maybe the 5-4-3-2-1 example is too "steep'. The average fan has been priced out of games by the booming wages. Everyone is getting paid. We support the product by attending games and buying gear. At some point the bubble has to burst.

Last year I said no mas to Center Ice. I did not miss it, and the Penguins play a ton on national TV. Instead I used that money to do my yearly venture to DC to watch the Pens play the Caps (Feb. 2 I believe it was), and it was well worth it as a one time per year venture. Remember traveling to DC and getting tix in the 200 level boxes for $75 a piece. Those days are gone and tix were $225 this time.

I've been saying the bubble is going to burst for the last 3 years or more. Last year was my first year without Center Ice. I also "cut the cord" last year. I found a "gray area" alternative via streaming that I get everything I need for sports at literally 15-20 times less cost per year.

I don't want to get too political or sad state of the world, but, it all goes back to greed. Just like the big corporations who need 10-20M severance packages and get paid 20-50 times what their average employees make, sports is no different. I'm fairly confident that, in a non-COVID world, you could drop ticket prices, drop concession/parking prices, not pay your athletes 10M-30M a year in some sports, and still make a good profit....because, if you drop the player salaries, there is a much bigger profit pool. But owners are too greedy to take a 30M profit instead of 50M profit. Just like 40-50 years ago, you could buy a washer/dryer/fridge/stove/etc that would last you 20-30 years. Today, appliances probably have a 10 year shelf life max, unless you want to shell out more money to fix it then the thing is worth. It's greed. Make more profits...brand reputation is nothing like it used to be. It's become accepted practice.

But, back more on topic. I spend less money on TV and don't feel the need to watch things (other than sports) live anymore. I had Miami Dolphin season tickets for 5 years at two different time periods (once for 3 years, then for 2 years). When I gave up my last set of season tickets 2 years ago, parking at the stadium was $40. Upper level tickets were $60 a piece (I had 3). That's already $280 a game in cost for me and my two boys, not counting food....not counting sitting out in 90 degree South Florida heat....dealing with getting in and out of the stadium, etc. TVs are so good today that, as much as I love seeing live sports, it's not worth almost $300 to go see a football game. Hockey is the same way. When my family goes (my wife will only do baseball or hockey), lower bowl tickets (nobody in my family likes the steepness of the upper deck in BB&T arena) are $75 a piece...$300 right there. No cheap food options unless you eat beforehand. Sodas and pretzels/hotdogs (usually cheapest option) still gonna run you a good $50-80. Parking is another $20 or more. $400-500 for a family to go see ONE game. As a teenager, I remember me and my friends being able to drive down to a Pirate game at 3 Rivers, pay like $10 for parking and $5 for an upper deck ticket...which you could move down later in the game because it was so dead.

I'm surprised the bubble hasn't burst already, but it's coming. The game is pretty much completely unaffordable for lower class people at this point, and is close to moving out of lower middle-class price range. What really hurts is that businesses are spending less and less on sports events these days. I've worked for the same company for 20 plus years, and I believe they have given up all but 1 of their suites in the different major stadiums/arenas here in South Florida.

Well put. I agree with everything you wrote here. If there's a good thing to come out of all this mess, it's that these owners and people who make money from sports need to back down a little bit, or economics will, at some point, make them back down. I clearly remember when the very best pro hockey players made about 6 million a season, and it scaled down from there. That was only a few players too. I'd like to see salaries revert to that standard. The players still get paid handsomely but not to the ridiculous levels we've become accustomed to.

So the players should take salaries from 10 years ago when profits are at an all-time high? Not so sure about that. They have very short careers and pay high taxes. They deserve every penny. Especially the ones getting double digit millions.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby dark_forces on Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:50 pm

ville5 wrote:
dark_forces wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
pronovost19 wrote:Just some food for thought on contracts and ticket prices...

You can go back and look at the comments when Hornqvist was resigned. There were folks who said that it was great because at the end of the deal he would be a steal for that price. As is the case, most, including GMs, forget that skills diminish. The way deals should be structured is not $25 million over 5 but (5,4,3,2,1)....$15 million over 5 because the skills diminish. Players should have a decreasing scale over the life of a long contract to make up for diminishing skills. I know that sounds crazy, and maybe the 5-4-3-2-1 example is too "steep'. The average fan has been priced out of games by the booming wages. Everyone is getting paid. We support the product by attending games and buying gear. At some point the bubble has to burst.

Last year I said no mas to Center Ice. I did not miss it, and the Penguins play a ton on national TV. Instead I used that money to do my yearly venture to DC to watch the Pens play the Caps (Feb. 2 I believe it was), and it was well worth it as a one time per year venture. Remember traveling to DC and getting tix in the 200 level boxes for $75 a piece. Those days are gone and tix were $225 this time.

I've been saying the bubble is going to burst for the last 3 years or more. Last year was my first year without Center Ice. I also "cut the cord" last year. I found a "gray area" alternative via streaming that I get everything I need for sports at literally 15-20 times less cost per year.

I don't want to get too political or sad state of the world, but, it all goes back to greed. Just like the big corporations who need 10-20M severance packages and get paid 20-50 times what their average employees make, sports is no different. I'm fairly confident that, in a non-COVID world, you could drop ticket prices, drop concession/parking prices, not pay your athletes 10M-30M a year in some sports, and still make a good profit....because, if you drop the player salaries, there is a much bigger profit pool. But owners are too greedy to take a 30M profit instead of 50M profit. Just like 40-50 years ago, you could buy a washer/dryer/fridge/stove/etc that would last you 20-30 years. Today, appliances probably have a 10 year shelf life max, unless you want to shell out more money to fix it then the thing is worth. It's greed. Make more profits...brand reputation is nothing like it used to be. It's become accepted practice.

But, back more on topic. I spend less money on TV and don't feel the need to watch things (other than sports) live anymore. I had Miami Dolphin season tickets for 5 years at two different time periods (once for 3 years, then for 2 years). When I gave up my last set of season tickets 2 years ago, parking at the stadium was $40. Upper level tickets were $60 a piece (I had 3). That's already $280 a game in cost for me and my two boys, not counting food....not counting sitting out in 90 degree South Florida heat....dealing with getting in and out of the stadium, etc. TVs are so good today that, as much as I love seeing live sports, it's not worth almost $300 to go see a football game. Hockey is the same way. When my family goes (my wife will only do baseball or hockey), lower bowl tickets (nobody in my family likes the steepness of the upper deck in BB&T arena) are $75 a piece...$300 right there. No cheap food options unless you eat beforehand. Sodas and pretzels/hotdogs (usually cheapest option) still gonna run you a good $50-80. Parking is another $20 or more. $400-500 for a family to go see ONE game. As a teenager, I remember me and my friends being able to drive down to a Pirate game at 3 Rivers, pay like $10 for parking and $5 for an upper deck ticket...which you could move down later in the game because it was so dead.

I'm surprised the bubble hasn't burst already, but it's coming. The game is pretty much completely unaffordable for lower class people at this point, and is close to moving out of lower middle-class price range. What really hurts is that businesses are spending less and less on sports events these days. I've worked for the same company for 20 plus years, and I believe they have given up all but 1 of their suites in the different major stadiums/arenas here in South Florida.

Well put. I agree with everything you wrote here. If there's a good thing to come out of all this mess, it's that these owners and people who make money from sports need to back down a little bit, or economics will, at some point, make them back down. I clearly remember when the very best pro hockey players made about 6 million a season, and it scaled down from there. That was only a few players too. I'd like to see salaries revert to that standard. The players still get paid handsomely but not to the ridiculous levels we've become accustomed to.

So the players should take salaries from 10 years ago when profits are at an all-time high? Not so sure about that. They have very short careers and pay high taxes. They deserve every penny. Especially the ones getting double digit millions.

I should have added that owners would make less in my scenario because ticket/food/beer prices would remain more flat, or roll back to what they were 10 years ago as well.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby BlackNGold4Life on Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:51 pm

The market is the market. If teams can afford to charge high ticket prices and sell out their buildings and generate revenue that allows for higher salaries then fine. It’s a free market. Selfishly I’d like to see cost to attend games come down, but it does drive TV revenue and the experience is oftentimes better. Fans drive the market, and until they as a group decide they won’t pay then players earn everything they get until then. The bubble may burst, that’s fine too - that’s how free market works. Players are already taking less when times are bad like now, so no reason they or the clubs shouldn’t make as much as the market with bear when fruitful.
Last edited by BlackNGold4Life on Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:13 pm

dark_forces wrote:
ville5 wrote:
dark_forces wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
pronovost19 wrote:Just some food for thought on contracts and ticket prices...

You can go back and look at the comments when Hornqvist was resigned. There were folks who said that it was great because at the end of the deal he would be a steal for that price. As is the case, most, including GMs, forget that skills diminish. The way deals should be structured is not $25 million over 5 but (5,4,3,2,1)....$15 million over 5 because the skills diminish. Players should have a decreasing scale over the life of a long contract to make up for diminishing skills. I know that sounds crazy, and maybe the 5-4-3-2-1 example is too "steep'. The average fan has been priced out of games by the booming wages. Everyone is getting paid. We support the product by attending games and buying gear. At some point the bubble has to burst.

Last year I said no mas to Center Ice. I did not miss it, and the Penguins play a ton on national TV. Instead I used that money to do my yearly venture to DC to watch the Pens play the Caps (Feb. 2 I believe it was), and it was well worth it as a one time per year venture. Remember traveling to DC and getting tix in the 200 level boxes for $75 a piece. Those days are gone and tix were $225 this time.

I've been saying the bubble is going to burst for the last 3 years or more. Last year was my first year without Center Ice. I also "cut the cord" last year. I found a "gray area" alternative via streaming that I get everything I need for sports at literally 15-20 times less cost per year.

I don't want to get too political or sad state of the world, but, it all goes back to greed. Just like the big corporations who need 10-20M severance packages and get paid 20-50 times what their average employees make, sports is no different. I'm fairly confident that, in a non-COVID world, you could drop ticket prices, drop concession/parking prices, not pay your athletes 10M-30M a year in some sports, and still make a good profit....because, if you drop the player salaries, there is a much bigger profit pool. But owners are too greedy to take a 30M profit instead of 50M profit. Just like 40-50 years ago, you could buy a washer/dryer/fridge/stove/etc that would last you 20-30 years. Today, appliances probably have a 10 year shelf life max, unless you want to shell out more money to fix it then the thing is worth. It's greed. Make more profits...brand reputation is nothing like it used to be. It's become accepted practice.

But, back more on topic. I spend less money on TV and don't feel the need to watch things (other than sports) live anymore. I had Miami Dolphin season tickets for 5 years at two different time periods (once for 3 years, then for 2 years). When I gave up my last set of season tickets 2 years ago, parking at the stadium was $40. Upper level tickets were $60 a piece (I had 3). That's already $280 a game in cost for me and my two boys, not counting food....not counting sitting out in 90 degree South Florida heat....dealing with getting in and out of the stadium, etc. TVs are so good today that, as much as I love seeing live sports, it's not worth almost $300 to go see a football game. Hockey is the same way. When my family goes (my wife will only do baseball or hockey), lower bowl tickets (nobody in my family likes the steepness of the upper deck in BB&T arena) are $75 a piece...$300 right there. No cheap food options unless you eat beforehand. Sodas and pretzels/hotdogs (usually cheapest option) still gonna run you a good $50-80. Parking is another $20 or more. $400-500 for a family to go see ONE game. As a teenager, I remember me and my friends being able to drive down to a Pirate game at 3 Rivers, pay like $10 for parking and $5 for an upper deck ticket...which you could move down later in the game because it was so dead.

I'm surprised the bubble hasn't burst already, but it's coming. The game is pretty much completely unaffordable for lower class people at this point, and is close to moving out of lower middle-class price range. What really hurts is that businesses are spending less and less on sports events these days. I've worked for the same company for 20 plus years, and I believe they have given up all but 1 of their suites in the different major stadiums/arenas here in South Florida.

Well put. I agree with everything you wrote here. If there's a good thing to come out of all this mess, it's that these owners and people who make money from sports need to back down a little bit, or economics will, at some point, make them back down. I clearly remember when the very best pro hockey players made about 6 million a season, and it scaled down from there. That was only a few players too. I'd like to see salaries revert to that standard. The players still get paid handsomely but not to the ridiculous levels we've become accustomed to.

So the players should take salaries from 10 years ago when profits are at an all-time high? Not so sure about that. They have very short careers and pay high taxes. They deserve every penny. Especially the ones getting double digit millions.

I should have added that owners would make less in my scenario because ticket/food/beer prices would remain more flat, or roll back to what they were 10 years ago as well.

Yeah, I mean, I wasn't trying to say just stiff the players and that's it. If you are charging less for tickets, concessions, parking, then owners make less money, which in turn means players make less money, but...I think the sport itself becomes more sustainable.

First year of the salary cap, the cap was 39M, the NHL minimum salary was 450K, and the NHL maximum salary was 7.8M
15 years later, the cap is slightly doubled to 81.5M (greater than 200% increase), the NHL minimum salary is 700K (just under 56% increase), and NHL max is 16.3M (more than 200% increase)
So at this rate, if revenues keep climbing, the caps is going to be 150M or greater, the max salary will be in the 30M range. I just don't see that being sustainable.

The game is getting faster and younger, but the officiating isn't matching the talent level and the direction of the game.
You see more 30-35 NHL free agents going to Europe, Russia, retiring, or taking enormous paycuts. This used to be more common in the 33-40 age range, but it is moving closer to 30 year after year.

I'm still very convinced that business make up a much larger portion of the ticketbase then fans compared to 20 years ago, and I see that beginning to trend downward. Again, in the name of profits, corporations are spending less and less on team suites and customer outings to sports events.

At some point, you reach a point where you cross a line where most people cannot or will not pay the prices. I think the sport is very close to that level, and not just hockey. I just see a problem in hockey first, because it is far behind the NHL, NBA, and MLB in terms of revenue and popularity to the general public.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby sjnhiils on Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:05 pm

Kingerski is saying that the Pens might be acquiring Kravstov from the Rangers. He wouldn't come cheap though and they don't have many assets to give up. Maybe a 2022 1st rounder? He cautioned that there could be a chance that it wasn't translated properly. Either way, its worth keeping an eye on , and it will be interesting to see where he fits if they do get him.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:47 pm

sjnhiils wrote:Kingerski is saying that the Pens might be acquiring Kravstov from the Rangers. He wouldn't come cheap though and they don't have many assets to give up. Maybe a 2022 1st rounder? He cautioned that there could be a chance that it wasn't translated properly. Either way, its worth keeping an eye on , and it will be interesting to see where he fits if they do get him.

I was going to post this earlier today, but it looks like a big stretch/rumor coming from Sport-Express, with nothing really to back it up. Sounds more like Eklund/TIOPS level conjecture of putting a bunch of pieces together to try and build a puzzle from 3 different puzzle sets.

--There was word a few weeks ago, maybe a bit longer, that NY Rangers were not going to be inviting Kravtsov to training camp for the 2021 season. They wanted him to spend another year getting experience, and stay in the KHL.

--Sport-Express (Russian Sports News) does an interview with Kravtsov, and says he heard rumors he is going to be acquired by the Penguins. Kravtsov says he can't speak about that. The Russian reporter plays up the "well, he didn't deny it" side of things.

I've taken a look at a few Rangers blogs, and they are pretty much dumping water on the whole thing.

--Another recent interview Kravtsov says that even before the end of the 2020 season, Kravtsov had an agreement with Rangers that he was going to play in the KHL this season. This wasn't a shock to Kravtsov, or a punishment, like some made it out to be.

--Before the Rangers resigned DeAngelo, there are rumors that he was on the block, and reportedly Anaheim, Vegas, and Pittsburgh inquired about him, although nobody knows if any of those inquiries were serious. Belief is that Pittsburgh may have asked about Kravtsov in those same discussions, and this has led to the speculation Pittsburgh was going to acquire him.

Kravtsov is 20 years old and a 9th overall pick. NY is still very high on him, and has no reason right now to move him. He's likely still 1-2 years away, and would be very costly to acquire. I don't really see a match here for Pittsburgh. He's not going to help the team this season.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby Jim on Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:06 am

Kravtsov is massively overrated
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby FLPensFan on Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:37 pm

Dobber's Hockey, which spends a lot of time dealing with prospects, had an article today on the top 10 NHL players they think could breakout and hit the 70 point mark next season. The Penguins had 2 players on that list....Kapanen and Zucker.

--For Kapanen, their argument was that Kapanen couldn't stick in a top 6 role in Toronto, but, with Sullivan already stating he will start with Sid and Jake, as well as possibly getting PP1 time, he is a good candidate to hit 70 points.

--On Zucker, they mention the Penguins gave up a lot to get him, and, he was a .8 points per game player in the regular season after arriving in Pittsburgh (65 point pace over 82 games). If he remains playing with Sid or Geno, they felt he could hit 70 points. They did mention his PP1 time in the playoffs, but, did not mention that if Kappy takes PP1 duty, Zucker probably drops to PP2.

https://dobberhockey.com/2020/11/30/top-10-players-who-will-reach-70-point-pace-for-first-time/
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby Cow_Master66 on Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:47 pm

My bet is that Kappy is not on the top PP since he will be counted on heavily in the PK1 role.

I know it won't happen but I'd prefer to see 2 dmen used on the PP...Letang is such a liability on the point that it would at least give a semi safety net having Marino on the other side.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby sjnhiils on Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:01 pm

Just saw that the WBS Penguins had signed Kyle Olson. Former 4th round pick of Anaheim. He put up good numbers in juniors, and although not big, he's not afraid to drop the gloves. Could be someone to keep in mind if Blueger would go down and the Pens wanted to purchase his contract.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby sjnhiils on Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:34 pm

Ek is saying that he keeps hearing that Pittsburgh has "huge" interest in Haula but they still have to make one more deal to get it done. McCann or Pettersson?
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby longtimefan on Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:23 am

sjnhiils wrote:Ek is saying that he keeps hearing that Pittsburgh has "huge" interest in Haula but they still have to make one more deal to get it done. McCann or Pettersson?


I think Ek is starving for rumors right now. Agents seem to be in a wait and see posture, just like the teams are. Until they work out the blueprint for the season to start, nobody wants to make a move. Which is a killer for a rumor site. Player moves are at a standstill. I suspect the Pens may have some interest in Haula, but only at a bargain price. I don't see them willing to move either Pettersson or McCann to bring him in. I've seen a lot written about how MP is viewed outside of Pittsburgh, and the consensus is he's a budding top 4 defenseman. He's only 24 years old. McCann's struggles the latter part of last season are well documented, but he also has obvious talent. They want him to settle in on the wing, but he still could end up being a center. He's also 24. It doesn't make sense to trade cost controlled players under 25 to bring in a guy who will turn 30 in March and looking at his fifth team since the end of 2017. Especially one with a gruesome leg injury he's had trouble recovering from. As much as I like him as a player, I just don't see him worth moving any one off the current roster who makes a decent buck.

JR was also quoted recently saying he expects a scarcity of trades this season. He described it as being more of an NFL model, with teams being largely stagnant in terms of personnel for the season. The reasoning is the protocol with quarantines when acquiring players. They aren't going to be available immediately as in the past, and the border adds another layer to that in terms of dealing with Canadian teams. With a condensed and shortened season, it will be difficult to move players off your roster in return for players who may not be available for a week or more because of COVID protocols. Much like when the Steelers traded for Avery Williamson, who wasn't allowed in the facility until he quarantined for 5 days. You'd end up losing a player without having his replacement for potentially several games, or more if coming across the border. Which can be a big deal with a 48 to 56 game season.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby Pensfan4life8771 on Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:35 am

As much as we know Ek is kind of crazy with his rumors I think Haula could be had for decent dollars, say $2M/1 yr.

Putting Haula on this group of forwards would lead to a ton of flexibility up and down the roster, you could do this:

Zucker - Sid - Kap
Jake - Geno - Rust
MCann - Haula - Tanev
Jankowski/Rodrigues - Teddy - Lafferty

OR

Jake - Sid - MCann
Zucker - Geno - Rust
Lafferty - Haula - Kappy
Jankowsi/Rodrigues - Teddy - Tanev

I know we would prefer to put Kap with Sid and Jake but having three lines that can score would do wonders to help Malkin/Sid get through a full 56 game season and still be fresh for playoffs.
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Re: 2020 Rumors - Roster Moves

Postby sjnhiils on Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:57 am

longtimefan wrote:
sjnhiils wrote:Ek is saying that he keeps hearing that Pittsburgh has "huge" interest in Haula but they still have to make one more deal to get it done. McCann or Pettersson?


I think Ek is starving for rumors right now. Agents seem to be in a wait and see posture, just like the teams are. Until they work out the blueprint for the season to start, nobody wants to make a move. Which is a killer for a rumor site. Player moves are at a standstill. I suspect the Pens may have some interest in Haula, but only at a bargain price. I don't see them willing to move either Pettersson or McCann to bring him in. I've seen a lot written about how MP is viewed outside of Pittsburgh, and the consensus is he's a budding top 4 defenseman. He's only 24 years old. McCann's struggles the latter part of last season are well documented, but he also has obvious talent. They want him to settle in on the wing, but he still could end up being a center. He's also 24. It doesn't make sense to trade cost controlled players under 25 to bring in a guy who will turn 30 in March and looking at his fifth team since the end of 2017. Especially one with a gruesome leg injury he's had trouble recovering from. As much as I like him as a player, I just don't see him worth moving any one off the current roster who makes a decent buck.

JR was also quoted recently saying he expects a scarcity of trades this season. He described it as being more of an NFL model, with teams being largely stagnant in terms of personnel for the season. The reasoning is the protocol with quarantines when acquiring players. They aren't going to be available immediately as in the past, and the border adds another layer to that in terms of dealing with Canadian teams. With a condensed and shortened season, it will be difficult to move players off your roster in return for players who may not be available for a week or more because of COVID protocols. Much like when the Steelers traded for Avery Williamson, who wasn't allowed in the facility until he quarantined for 5 days. You'd end up losing a player without having his replacement for potentially several games, or more if coming across the border. Which can be a big deal with a 48 to 56 game season.

I can't remember where I saw it but it stated that there wouldn't be many trades during the season so that is why GMJR would try to swing one before the start of it once a beginning date was set.
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