A GM's Blueprint

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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby pens_CT on Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:53 pm

Jim wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
Jim wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Good to know, thanks. I would still do a JJ for Rask swap. While it is 750K more expensive this coming season, Rask is a UFA after 20-21, whereas JJ still has 2 more seasons. It's an overall win. If you can play Rask, great. If not, he's an injury fill in and leaves at the end of the year. I have heard that Minnesota could even look to buyout Rask.


Rask has 2 years left, not 1.

Cap: $4M, $4M vs $3.25M, $3.25M, $3.25M
Total salary: $8M vs $8.25M


Total salary: $8M vs $9.75M fixed your math.


You are mistaking cap for salary.
Johnson's salary: $3M, $3M, $2.25M = $8.25M


Okay thanks I missed that part. I thought JJ's salary was identical to his cap hit.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby Jim on Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:53 pm

pens_CT wrote:
Jim wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
Jim wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Good to know, thanks. I would still do a JJ for Rask swap. While it is 750K more expensive this coming season, Rask is a UFA after 20-21, whereas JJ still has 2 more seasons. It's an overall win. If you can play Rask, great. If not, he's an injury fill in and leaves at the end of the year. I have heard that Minnesota could even look to buyout Rask.


Rask has 2 years left, not 1.

Cap: $4M, $4M vs $3.25M, $3.25M, $3.25M
Total salary: $8M vs $8.25M


Total salary: $8M vs $9.75M fixed your math.


You are mistaking cap for salary.
Johnson's salary: $3M, $3M, $2.25M = $8.25M


Okay thanks I missed that part. I thought JJ's salary was identical to his cap hit.


Rutherford has a habbit of straight salary. Johnson's is a rare exception.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby Hatrick on Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:27 am

I would do the Letang to Edmonton, I think Edmonton might consider it with maybe some adjustments.

The Horni to Calgary just for picks, I am honestly not sure what the flames cap situation is at, if you want to dump salary that is trade the penguins make, I don't think it really helps the team though since the PP struggles at times as it is, taking away another piece from that can not help.

I do not do the other deals, I would not even do JJ for Rask 1 for 1, that is one of the reasons I HATED the idea of the kessel+JJ to Minnesota for rask+zucker, if you are moving Letang than acquiring Dumba makes sense although I am not as big of a fan of his recently either.

Domi I would consider that deal, but my concern would be the contract, I might rather keep McCann who would be cheaper and keep Riikola for depth.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby Hatrick on Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:28 am

KG wrote:
ville5 wrote:
Jim wrote:I think that if you can get Domi for McCann, Riikola, 3rd; and then sign him for $5Mx5... that's a win.

Don't see that happening. Domi's worst season is better than McCann's best. It has been reported in the past that Bergevin had interest in Riikola. But I doubt Riikola and a 3rd are enough to close the gap in value. But stranger things have happened.


I could see Montreal having interest in our 1st round pick for Domi.

not sure if this is serious or sarcasm at this point or not with peoples sudden fascination with him.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby Jim on Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:56 am

Hatrick wrote:
KG wrote:
ville5 wrote:
Jim wrote:I think that if you can get Domi for McCann, Riikola, 3rd; and then sign him for $5Mx5... that's a win.

Don't see that happening. Domi's worst season is better than McCann's best. It has been reported in the past that Bergevin had interest in Riikola. But I doubt Riikola and a 3rd are enough to close the gap in value. But stranger things have happened.


I could see Montreal having interest in our 1st round pick for Domi.

not sure if this is serious or sarcasm at this point or not with peoples sudden fascination with him.


Flavor of the week
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby Cow_Master66 on Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:08 am

Hatrick wrote:
KG wrote:
ville5 wrote:
Jim wrote:I think that if you can get Domi for McCann, Riikola, 3rd; and then sign him for $5Mx5... that's a win.

Don't see that happening. Domi's worst season is better than McCann's best. It has been reported in the past that Bergevin had interest in Riikola. But I doubt Riikola and a 3rd are enough to close the gap in value. But stranger things have happened.


I could see Montreal having interest in our 1st round pick for Domi.

not sure if this is serious or sarcasm at this point or not with peoples sudden fascination with him.



Valid question...I'm not sure where all the love came from either.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:41 am

Its people connecting the dots. His dad and Lemieux are good friends, the Pens have been connected to him in the past prior to his trade to Montreal, and he's playing a reduced role right now in Montréal.

So people are just following the bread crumbs and speculating on the cost, whether they think Domi is a fit or not.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:04 am

Hatrick wrote:I would do the Letang to Edmonton, I think Edmonton might consider it with maybe some adjustments.

The Horni to Calgary just for picks, I am honestly not sure what the flames cap situation is at, if you want to dump salary that is trade the penguins make, I don't think it really helps the team though since the PP struggles at times as it is, taking away another piece from that can not help.

I do not do the other deals, I would not even do JJ for Rask 1 for 1, that is one of the reasons I HATED the idea of the kessel+JJ to Minnesota for rask+zucker, if you are moving Letang than acquiring Dumba makes sense although I am not as big of a fan of his recently either.

Domi I would consider that deal, but my concern would be the contract, I might rather keep McCann who would be cheaper and keep Riikola for depth.

If you want an argument for keeping McCann, here is a good analytics based article that came out about a week ago McCann article

If you don't feel like sifting through the article, it basically says McCann played very well at 3C early in the season. It also talked about how McCann played with over 9 different teammates, and had no more than 84 minutes with a consistent line combination. That is an issue. He needs to get some consistency going with a line that he can stick with for awhile.

The article also went into some of his metrics, showing that he was actually taking more shots during his 24 game end of season slump, and also showing that, even though some say he isn't a defensive forward, his shot suppression numbers were better with him at center.

The quick summary was, McCann deserves another shot as the 3C. Get him some consistent linemates and be a little patient. Penguins shouldn't give up on him so soon.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:43 am

FLPensFan wrote:
Hatrick wrote:I would do the Letang to Edmonton, I think Edmonton might consider it with maybe some adjustments.

The Horni to Calgary just for picks, I am honestly not sure what the flames cap situation is at, if you want to dump salary that is trade the penguins make, I don't think it really helps the team though since the PP struggles at times as it is, taking away another piece from that can not help.

I do not do the other deals, I would not even do JJ for Rask 1 for 1, that is one of the reasons I HATED the idea of the kessel+JJ to Minnesota for rask+zucker, if you are moving Letang than acquiring Dumba makes sense although I am not as big of a fan of his recently either.

Domi I would consider that deal, but my concern would be the contract, I might rather keep McCann who would be cheaper and keep Riikola for depth.

If you want an argument for keeping McCann, here is a good analytics based article that came out about a week ago McCann article

If you don't feel like sifting through the article, it basically says McCann played very well at 3C early in the season. It also talked about how McCann played with over 9 different teammates, and had no more than 84 minutes with a consistent line combination. That is an issue. He needs to get some consistency going with a line that he can stick with for awhile.

The article also went into some of his metrics, showing that he was actually taking more shots during his 24 game end of season slump, and also showing that, even though some say he isn't a defensive forward, his shot suppression numbers were better with him at center.

The quick summary was, McCann deserves another shot as the 3C. Get him some consistent linemates and be a little patient. Penguins shouldn't give up on him so soon.


You gotta get better linemates for the 3rd line regardless who the center is.

The issue with McCann is what do you pay him?
3M for 1 season if you keep him?
Is a 3rd line of Poulin McCann Hornqvist acceptable?

I love Hornqvist as a player but hes not going to provide what this team needs 5 on 5.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby Pitts on Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:56 am

Hornqvist should be trade candidate #1 right now. He's no longer effective for this team. You want to get younger? Start there.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby longtimefan on Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:08 pm

Pitts wrote:Hornqvist should be trade candidate #1 right now. He's no longer effective for this team. You want to get younger? Start there.


To me JJ is the player you must want to move. I can't agree he wasn't effective. He played to a 27 goal pace over a full 82 games. And that was without ever finding a line, and a diminished PP role.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby dark_forces on Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:09 pm

Pitts wrote:Hornqvist should be trade candidate #1 right now. He's no longer effective for this team. You want to get younger? Start there.


I think his intangibles would be hard to replace. He's so good in front of the net and really brings it every shift. I'd be inclined to keep him around and see where the team is near the trade deadline and how the younger forwards progress (like S. Poulin). However, if another team calls on him and presents a real nice offer, I'd listen. My question to the board is -- what would you consider a fair offer for Hornqvist? Would a 2nd round pick in 2020 do it? A B+ level prospect? An established 3rd liner/penalty killer, or a 4-5 defenseman who can skate?
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:02 pm

dark_forces wrote:
Pitts wrote:Hornqvist should be trade candidate #1 right now. He's no longer effective for this team. You want to get younger? Start there.


I think his intangibles would be hard to replace. He's so good in front of the net and really brings it every shift. I'd be inclined to keep him around and see where the team is near the trade deadline and how the younger forwards progress (like S. Poulin). However, if another team calls on him and presents a real nice offer, I'd listen. My question to the board is -- what would you consider a fair offer for Hornqvist? Would a 2nd round pick in 2020 do it? A B+ level prospect? An established 3rd liner/penalty killer, or a 4-5 defenseman who can skate?

Hornqvist is most definitely a tricky one.
-->He's no longer a top 6 forward. He doesn't have the speed to be effective there.
-->He's overpaid to be a bottom 6 player. Sometimes you can get away with it. On a team like Pittsburgh that is a bit cap strapped, it really won't work well.
-->He has a NMC which makes moving him more difficult. You likely can't dump him on a team on the cusp of being a playoff team, or a rebuilding team. I would think he needs to go to a contending team. Many have said Calgary....I keep thinking Colorado, personally.
-->Trading him risks upsetting the chemistry in the locker room. A lot has been said that Rutherford's trade of Hagelin in an attempt to shakeup the room backfired. Players were angry, not shaken.

With all that being said, I do think it is time to move on.
-->While he has a great net front presence and is very intense, I don't think of Hornqvist as a physical player.
-->It's outright ridiculous to me, but, Hornqvist takes a brutal beating on a nightly basis with almost no penalties called. It's kind of like, oh, it's Matt Cooke, that has to be a penalty on a weak play; It's, oh, that's Hornqvist, he always plays near the crease so it's ok for players to cross-check the **** out of him....none of that is interference, cross-checking, roughing, etc. The game is not called to Hornqvist's benefit, and, I really don't think he is going to hold up very long taking the abuse that he does.

The value really depends on the team and situation, IMO:
-->I could see a 2nd in 2020 being fair value. I'm not sure he'll get that, but it would be fair.
-->I could see a B level prospect as fair value, and probably most likely.
-->I could see a 3rd liner or an older (Late 20's) 3rd pairing type guy if acquiring team wants to move some salary out to bring in Hornqvist.

With Colorado, I wonder if something like Donskoi for Hornqvist. That would be a 1.4M cap gain. Colorado would have to be looking to change up the dynamic on RW, however, as I look at this further, I see Donskoi is having a pretty strong playoffs and probably wouldn't move him.

Really just depends on the team and their cap situation as to what a Hornqvist return would be.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby Jim on Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:10 pm

Crosby is Superman, Hornqvist is Batman.

Superman is the posterboy and the one everyone on the outside points to, but Batman runs the Justice League.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby Pitts on Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:13 pm

longtimefan wrote:
Pitts wrote:Hornqvist should be trade candidate #1 right now. He's no longer effective for this team. You want to get younger? Start there.


To me JJ is the player you must want to move. I can't agree he wasn't effective. He played to a 27 goal pace over a full 82 games. And that was without ever finding a line, and a diminished PP role.

I mean, JJ is a given and it's obvious the team thinks so too since they tried to trade him a few times already. Horny had a decent regular season, I saw nothing from him in the post season. Also, he isn't nearly as good on the powerplay any longer, otherwise the PP would be much more effective I think. Sure, he screens and mixes it up some, but I haven't seen that dirty goal or that deflection ability he had a couple seasons ago.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:21 pm

Jim wrote:Crosby is Superman, Hornqvist is Batman.

Superman is the posterboy and the one everyone on the outside points to, but Batman runs the Justice League.

I like Marvel. :pop:
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:36 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
dark_forces wrote:
Pitts wrote:Hornqvist should be trade candidate #1 right now. He's no longer effective for this team. You want to get younger? Start there.


I think his intangibles would be hard to replace. He's so good in front of the net and really brings it every shift. I'd be inclined to keep him around and see where the team is near the trade deadline and how the younger forwards progress (like S. Poulin). However, if another team calls on him and presents a real nice offer, I'd listen. My question to the board is -- what would you consider a fair offer for Hornqvist? Would a 2nd round pick in 2020 do it? A B+ level prospect? An established 3rd liner/penalty killer, or a 4-5 defenseman who can skate?

Hornqvist is most definitely a tricky one.
-->He's no longer a top 6 forward. He doesn't have the speed to be effective there.
-->He's overpaid to be a bottom 6 player. Sometimes you can get away with it. On a team like Pittsburgh that is a bit cap strapped, it really won't work well.
-->He has a NMC which makes moving him more difficult. You likely can't dump him on a team on the cusp of being a playoff team, or a rebuilding team. I would think he needs to go to a contending team. Many have said Calgary....I keep thinking Colorado, personally.
-->Trading him risks upsetting the chemistry in the locker room. A lot has been said that Rutherford's trade of Hagelin in an attempt to shakeup the room backfired. Players were angry, not shaken.

With all that being said, I do think it is time to move on.
-->While he has a great net front presence and is very intense, I don't think of Hornqvist as a physical player.
-->It's outright ridiculous to me, but, Hornqvist takes a brutal beating on a nightly basis with almost no penalties called. It's kind of like, oh, it's Matt Cooke, that has to be a penalty on a weak play; It's, oh, that's Hornqvist, he always plays near the crease so it's ok for players to cross-check the **** out of him....none of that is interference, cross-checking, roughing, etc. The game is not called to Hornqvist's benefit, and, I really don't think he is going to hold up very long taking the abuse that he does.

The value really depends on the team and situation, IMO:
-->I could see a 2nd in 2020 being fair value. I'm not sure he'll get that, but it would be fair.
-->I could see a B level prospect as fair value, and probably most likely.
-->I could see a 3rd liner or an older (Late 20's) 3rd pairing type guy if acquiring team wants to move some salary out to bring in Hornqvist.

With Colorado, I wonder if something like Donskoi for Hornqvist. That would be a 1.4M cap gain. Colorado would have to be looking to change up the dynamic on RW, however, as I look at this further, I see Donskoi is having a pretty strong playoffs and probably wouldn't move him.

Really just depends on the team and their cap situation as to what a Hornqvist return would be.


The ideal play i think is to have Seattle select Hornqvist in the expansion draft.

This team can try and make 1 more run at the cup next season, then after that you have 1 more season of Letang and Malkin under contract. Serious decisions about the direction of the franchise will need to be made and getting Hornqvist's contract off the books will help.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:52 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
dark_forces wrote:
Pitts wrote:Hornqvist should be trade candidate #1 right now. He's no longer effective for this team. You want to get younger? Start there.


I think his intangibles would be hard to replace. He's so good in front of the net and really brings it every shift. I'd be inclined to keep him around and see where the team is near the trade deadline and how the younger forwards progress (like S. Poulin). However, if another team calls on him and presents a real nice offer, I'd listen. My question to the board is -- what would you consider a fair offer for Hornqvist? Would a 2nd round pick in 2020 do it? A B+ level prospect? An established 3rd liner/penalty killer, or a 4-5 defenseman who can skate?

Hornqvist is most definitely a tricky one.
-->He's no longer a top 6 forward. He doesn't have the speed to be effective there.
-->He's overpaid to be a bottom 6 player. Sometimes you can get away with it. On a team like Pittsburgh that is a bit cap strapped, it really won't work well.
-->He has a NMC which makes moving him more difficult. You likely can't dump him on a team on the cusp of being a playoff team, or a rebuilding team. I would think he needs to go to a contending team. Many have said Calgary....I keep thinking Colorado, personally.
-->Trading him risks upsetting the chemistry in the locker room. A lot has been said that Rutherford's trade of Hagelin in an attempt to shakeup the room backfired. Players were angry, not shaken.

With all that being said, I do think it is time to move on.
-->While he has a great net front presence and is very intense, I don't think of Hornqvist as a physical player.
-->It's outright ridiculous to me, but, Hornqvist takes a brutal beating on a nightly basis with almost no penalties called. It's kind of like, oh, it's Matt Cooke, that has to be a penalty on a weak play; It's, oh, that's Hornqvist, he always plays near the crease so it's ok for players to cross-check the **** out of him....none of that is interference, cross-checking, roughing, etc. The game is not called to Hornqvist's benefit, and, I really don't think he is going to hold up very long taking the abuse that he does.

The value really depends on the team and situation, IMO:
-->I could see a 2nd in 2020 being fair value. I'm not sure he'll get that, but it would be fair.
-->I could see a B level prospect as fair value, and probably most likely.
-->I could see a 3rd liner or an older (Late 20's) 3rd pairing type guy if acquiring team wants to move some salary out to bring in Hornqvist.

With Colorado, I wonder if something like Donskoi for Hornqvist. That would be a 1.4M cap gain. Colorado would have to be looking to change up the dynamic on RW, however, as I look at this further, I see Donskoi is having a pretty strong playoffs and probably wouldn't move him.

Really just depends on the team and their cap situation as to what a Hornqvist return would be.


The ideal play i think is to have Seattle select Hornqvist in the expansion draft.

This team can try and make 1 more run at the cup next season, then after that you have 1 more season of Letang and Malkin under contract. Serious decisions about the direction of the franchise will need to be made and getting Hornqvist's contract off the books will help.

I'm not taking him if I'm Francis. It will be very wishful thinking that Seattle is going to be as successful as Vegas right off the bat. Taking 34/35 year old overpaid forward who gets beat up on a nightly basis probably isn't a smart move.

This could be argued, but, let's say this is a pretty good bet to be the Penguins protected list:

Crosby, Malkin, Guentzel, Zucker, Rust, McCann, Tanev/Blueger
Letang, Dumouin, Marino
Jarry

If I were Seattle, I'd look at Pettersson, Tanev/Blueger types before I'd consider Hornqvist.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:02 pm

Awesome news Jack Johnson lovers.... :shock: :face: Josh Yohe spoke to Rutherford today. The important quotes from Rutherford:

1. “Here’s my summary of this situation,” a terse Rutherford said. “Maybe Jack Johnson isn’t as good as I think he is. Maybe. But he’s not as bad as all of the anti-Jack Johnson people think he is. I’ll tell you what he is: He’s a solid, third-pairing defenseman if he’s playing with the right guy. He’s a player that I happen to really like and I think he’s a better player than a lot of people want to give him credit for.”

2. “Jack was better this season and is a totally capable guy,” Rutherford continued. “A good team guy.”

3. “I think Jack was pretty good this season,” Rutherford said. “He changed up his training regimen before the season started and you could see the difference. He gained half a step. He’s one of those guys, he plays a very heavy game. He’s very hard to play against down low because he’s so big and strong. He’s also a very good penalty killer.”

4. “He’ll be able to play out his contract,” Rutherford said. “Whether it’s for someone else or it’s for the Penguins, he’ll play at least (three more seasons) what’s left on his deal. The thing about him is that he takes extremely good care of himself. He’s in great shape and he’ll continue to be in great shape because he’s such a professional. So I don’t have concerns.”

5. “His contract is not a problem for us,” Rutherford said. “His contract isn’t going to impact anything that we do in terms of the cap.”


I've also called out Yohe on his clickbait title, which mentions in the title that GMJR "wants him to finish his career as a Penguin." None of the quotes state that. The closest is #4 where he says Johnson will be able play out his contract, whether somewhere else or here in Pittsburgh. That's much, much different than Rutherford saying "I want Jack to retire a Penguin."
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby Jim on Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:10 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Jim wrote:Crosby is Superman, Hornqvist is Batman.

Superman is the posterboy and the one everyone on the outside points to, but Batman runs the Justice League.

I like Marvel. :pop:


DC sucks, but that is the only one that I could come up with that was clear to me.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby Jim on Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:14 pm

FLPensFan wrote:4. “He’ll be able to play out his contract,” Rutherford said. “Whether it’s for someone else or it’s for the Penguins, he’ll play at least (three more seasons) what’s left on his deal. The thing about him is that he takes extremely good care of himself. He’s in great shape and he’ll continue to be in great shape because he’s such a professional. So I don’t have concerns.”


Rutherford must have seem my "Talk him into retiring" posts.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby Ohio_Pens_fan on Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:15 pm

Don't they have to protect Hornqvist in the expansion draft due to his NTC?
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby 100565 on Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:20 pm

It would be a great idea if Jack Johnson would retire.

(helping the cause)
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:30 pm

Ohio_Pens_fan wrote:Don't they have to protect Hornqvist in the expansion draft due to his NTC?

Only full no movement clauses have to be protected. I went back and looked at the rules, and it does say the player can waive their NMC and then be left unprotected.
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Re: A GM's Blueprint

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:32 pm

Ohio_Pens_fan wrote:Don't they have to protect Hornqvist in the expansion draft due to his NTC?


The same thing would apply as with Fleury. If a player has a NMC they have to be protected, if the player chooses to waive their NMC they can be selected.

Hornqvist has a NTC not a NMC so its my understanding he doesn't have to be protected.

Can someone confirm that?

EDIT: NM, see post above.
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:43 pm
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