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Bjugstad to Minny

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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby ville5 on Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:14 am

pens_CT wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:So, Rutherford apparently told Yohe he wants to shed enough salary to make moves when free agency opens.

“Well, I’d really like to be able to get there, to be at the point where we can do something in free agency,” he said. “But we aren’t there yet.”

Rutherford laughed when asked if another trade must be made for the Penguins to be active on Oct. 9.

“Yes,” the normally long-winded Rutherford said.


Or this could all just be GMJR **** with Josh Yohe. Who really knows at this point?


Based on Rutherford's track record in free agency we should be very scared :scared: :scared:

Lol. Rumor has it he wants to be around $70 million for ufa. Which might prove to be strategically sound this time around. With reports of all the teams looking to reduce cap, GMJR might be able to find some great value relatively speaking.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby ville5 on Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:16 am

Steve Dave wrote:CapFriendly is showing that if Bjugstad is bought out, both Min and Pit would have cap hits of $300k this season and $875 next. Can anyone verify this to be correct? If so, it looks as if Billy G could be doing JR a favor if he buys out Bjugstad. Each team would save $1.75 against the cap.

GMJR does not want extra cap on the books next season. Marino gonna get paid.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby Ohio_Pens_fan on Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:51 am

ville5 wrote:
Steve Dave wrote:CapFriendly is showing that if Bjugstad is bought out, both Min and Pit would have cap hits of $300k this season and $875 next. Can anyone verify this to be correct? If so, it looks as if Billy G could be doing JR a favor if he buys out Bjugstad. Each team would save $1.75 against the cap.

GMJR does not want extra cap on the books next season. Marino gonna get paid.


I wrote this same thing last night. After thinking it through, I believe the Pens would still be on the hook for their original 50% plus the additional buyout portions. It initially sounded like a great idea in my head but then again I tend to have a few of those when I'm finishing multiple glasses of hard cider.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby ville5 on Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:39 am

pens_CT wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:So, Rutherford apparently told Yohe he wants to shed enough salary to make moves when free agency opens.

“Well, I’d really like to be able to get there, to be at the point where we can do something in free agency,” he said. “But we aren’t there yet.”

Rutherford laughed when asked if another trade must be made for the Penguins to be active on Oct. 9.

“Yes,” the normally long-winded Rutherford said.


Or this could all just be GMJR **** with Josh Yohe. Who really knows at this point?

Who needs to play D? Pffft. Run and Gun baby.
Based on Rutherford's track record in free agency we should be very scared :scared: :scared:

C'mon, you're going to love the new 3rd pairing of JMFJ and Shattenkirk.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby longtimefan on Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:48 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
ville5 wrote:
Tico Rick wrote:It’s quite possible that Bjugstad has just a few dozen games left in his NHL career. It’s also quite possible that both GMJR and Guerin realize this, yet Guerin is willing to make a reclamation project of the Minny boy. I have no problem with this trade.

A point being overlooked- what happens if Bjugstad gets LTIRed again. Which is the odds on favorite at this point. Now they can't bank cap for deadline. With the uncertain financial landscape moving forward, this may not be as bad as I originally thought. But, was it a case of Jimmy and Billy getting Bjugstad back home? Could Jimmy have gone to Ottawa and gotten a better pick? We armchair gms certainly portray to know, but truth be we don't know what goes on behind the scenes. Maybe it was his best offer.


From a cap perspective the better move would have been a buy out instead of this trade. So to say this was a hockey move is false, it was purely a financial move.


I explained above why I disagree. It's better this season, not overall. It's shortsighted with a 2 yr window. They'd rather take the $2.05M hit now then $600K this season and $1.75M next season, when Marino needs paid. The cap is going to be the same. From a real money perspective, you have $1.45M extra. Which will essentially pay Blueger and Lafferty.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby BlackNGold4Life on Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:29 pm

longtimefan wrote:To those who have suggested they buy out Bjugstad but are now throwing a fit, what's your reasoning? In essence, they just did. A buyout would have cost them $3.5M in real dollars, and a cap hit this season of $600K, and next season, $1.75M. So they decided to take a $2.05M hit this season, without a hit next season. Plus a real dollars saving of $1.45M, which is relevant when you're starved for revenue. If you sign Lafferty for the minimum, the $1.5M in savings will be pay all but $50K of his and Blueger's salaries this season.

Everybody needs to take a wait and see approach. I recall reading how badly they lost the Zucker trade, and then saw it rated as the best of the deadline deals this season. Giving up a 1st and a top 50 prospect was viewed as a fleecing. What's that say about Tampa using it's two 1st rounders to acquire Coleman and Goodrow? And including their own top 50 prospect in the Coleman deal. I don't see this as the Pens trying to cut payroll because of an internal cap. JR mentioned that he had to keep the team cap compliant. Nick's $5.25M salary coming off a major injury was a bigger barrier than we thought. JR mentioned that everybody in the league is trying to cut salary. Some because of the flat cap, but a great many with self-imposed caps. Dreger said the other night that many teams are looking to stay in the low '70's.

There's been numerous RFA signings. The highest cap hit to date was given to Fabbri by Detroit. It's $2.95M. No one has been given more. Read into it what you'd like. But here's a couple of quotes from JR.

“You’ve got to realize that teams don’t know how much money they’ll be making next season and moving forward,” he said. “Plus, teams all thought (before the pandemic) the salary cap for next season was going to be anywhere between $3 million and $6 million higher than what it is. So, everyone is in a pretty difficult situation, and that includes us.”


“First things first, we need to get to a point where we are comfortable that we’ll be compliant with the cap,” Rutherford said.”


“It’s been an extremely busy five or six weeks,” he said. “Phone is ringing a lot. There’s a lot of talk about a lot of things around the league right now. Everybody is trying to put themselves in a spot where they are comfortable financially. In today’s climate, it’s really tough. Everyone is trying to make deals, but coming up with fair deals is really hard. Everyone is worried about the cap. Everyone. Not just this year, but into the future. And remember, we have an expansion draft next season. There are so, so many variables right now. It’s just not easy for anyone. But that said, we have some moves to make, and we’d like to change this team around.”


Rutherford will continue hitting the phones this weekend and beyond. Unhappy with his team’s performance during the past two seasons, he wants to change the supporting cast but to keep Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin and Kris Letang on his roster.

The work continues.

“We’ll see what happens next,” he said. “I’ll do everything I can to make this a better hockey team.”


First off, the talk about JR going back on what he said at the end of the season is misplaced. He still says the same things. He'd like to change things up. It's not like he isn't trying! But he's not a magician when there doesn't appear to be anyone comfortable with their situation. It's not just the cap, it's real dollars. And it's not just flat for one season. There's no way it doesn't remain flat in '21-'22. Not with the likelihood of playing at least a part of the season with no fans, or a small percentage of capacity. Not to mention the possibility of the season being shortened depending on when they can start. You've got to be prepared. Not just the Pens, but everybody.

Priority one is compliance. The deal likely allows for that with the current roster, even after re-signing all of their remaining RFAs. His comments on McCann suggests they are leaning toward keeping him. Which leads me to believe that they feel his contract demands will be reasonable. He stated he was a little concerned about that at season's end. Realistically, even after the trade, they are going to be close to the cap.

JR wasn't misleading anybody. It's going to be a process, and they have to see what they can actually do. They aren't unique. It's across the league. Everybody is looking to dump salary, but there's no takers. In less than a month, the buyout period will likely be very active. Which will increase the number of players on the UFA market. I keep seeing people estimate Haula's salary as $3M. Normally, I'd say that's a bit light. But he may actually have to take a pay cut from his current $2.75M cap hit. I suspect you'll see a lot of bargain prices this season. Likely short term and low dollar. JR hopes to be able to participate, but still has to clear cap room to do so in a meaningful way. So there's work to be done.

Getting younger and changing things up was the plan. It still is. But you may have to take a different tact. You may have to count on some of the prospects to take a step forward. Like they did in '15-'16 with the WBS group. Or like the Caps did the year they had to purge salary because the cap caught up to them. They were roundly panned that summer, and were expected to take a dramatic fall. Instead they won the Cup.

At some point, you've got to give people a shot to sink or swim. Some aren't comfortable with Blueger because he hasn't been a 3C before. Although he really was for 80% of the season. But he actually stacks up fine against most of the suggestions I've seen. Lafferty looked like he may had taken a step forward when they had the camp games this summer. He's been in the league for a season. It might be worth giving him a regular spot to lose. Perhaps the re-tooling of the bottom six will have to include guys like Poulin, O'Conner, Angello, and Miletic. They are no more unknown than Rust, Sheary, Kuhnhackl, etc. You don't always have to go outside the organization to change thigs up.

It's also safe to assume that the team will be a WIP a good portion of the season, and they likely will be active at the deadline. I'm sure he'll continue to try and clear cap space by moving out a contract or two. Maybe he can, maybe he can't. But that's the climate. So you deal with it. Before going overboard on the criticism, wait to see what happens elsewhere around the league.

Next up is the Murray deal, and the RFA signings.

But as far as the Bjugstad deal, if you were a proponent of buying him out, they did.


100% This^ - the business side of thats that gets lost on people. Lots of dynamics around the league right now.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby Pens4Life on Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:03 pm

FLPensFan wrote:I'm going to take a guess that we retained 1M, to try and even out cap hit with actual owed salary.

Also, some are speculating that the Penguins are close to making a move now for a 3C or making a Murray trade. If Murray trade is coming, you would think this may rule out Minnesota as a Murray destination. Otherwise, they likely would have just waited and included Bjugstad in a bigger deal.


thats my guess too.. 1.1M retained
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby thehockeyguru on Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:21 pm

longtimefan wrote:To those who have suggested they buy out Bjugstad but are now throwing a fit, what's your reasoning? In essence, they just did. A buyout would have cost them $3.5M in real dollars, and a cap hit this season of $600K, and next season, $1.75M. So they decided to take a $2.05M hit this season, without a hit next season. Plus a real dollars saving of $1.45M, which is relevant when you're starved for revenue. If you sign Lafferty for the minimum, the $1.5M in savings will be pay all but $50K of his and Blueger's salaries this season.


Here is why the Bjugstad trade is dumb. 600k > 2.05M this season (1.405M additional salary)

1. The cap is flat so players are more likely looking for short 1-2 year deals with a higher AAV vs a lower salary over a longer term. There is financial uncertainty with regards to the cap for the next several years so teams are more reluctant to give more term. What if the Pens top target for 3C wants a 1yr 4M deal vs a 2-3 year 2.5M deal. That difference in buying out vs retaining makes a HUGE difference, thee difference in getting your guy or not.

2. The Pens have (2) players Poulin and POJ who I'm willing to bet will be full-time NHL players next season. Those ELC's can replace more expensive players who dont produce. Example: Pens sign McCann to a 1yr 2.9M deal this offseason. McCann plays LW and regresses to the point Poulin is a better option at 3LW. The difference between McCann and Poulin is roughly 2M. By inserting Poulin for McCann you erase that 1.75M buyout money in 1 transaction.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby Maestro on Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:57 pm

Haula + C. Tanev for 3rd RD
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby FLPensFan on Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:12 pm

Maestro wrote:Haula + C. Tanev for 3rd RD

Tanev wants to stay in Vancouver, and sounds like he is willing to take a cheaper contract to stay. Someone here had him at 1.75M, and that's extremely unrealistic. 3M sounds more reasonable, if not higher.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby longtimefan on Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:19 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
longtimefan wrote:To those who have suggested they buy out Bjugstad but are now throwing a fit, what's your reasoning? In essence, they just did. A buyout would have cost them $3.5M in real dollars, and a cap hit this season of $600K, and next season, $1.75M. So they decided to take a $2.05M hit this season, without a hit next season. Plus a real dollars saving of $1.45M, which is relevant when you're starved for revenue. If you sign Lafferty for the minimum, the $1.5M in savings will be pay all but $50K of his and Blueger's salaries this season.


Here is why the Bjugstad trade is dumb. 600k > 2.05M this season (1.405M additional salary)

1. The cap is flat so players are more likely looking for short 1-2 year deals with a higher AAV vs a lower salary over a longer term. There is financial uncertainty with regards to the cap for the next several years so teams are more reluctant to give more term. What if the Pens top target for 3C wants a 1yr 4M deal vs a 2-3 year 2.5M deal. That difference in buying out vs retaining makes a HUGE difference, thee difference in getting your guy or not.

2. The Pens have (2) players Poulin and POJ who I'm willing to bet will be full-time NHL players next season. Those ELC's can replace more expensive players who dont produce. Example: Pens sign McCann to a 1yr 2.9M deal this offseason. McCann plays LW and regresses to the point Poulin is a better option at 3LW. The difference between McCann and Poulin is roughly 2M. By inserting Poulin for McCann you erase that 1.75M buyout money in 1 transaction.


You also have to allow for Marino's 3M+ increase next season. Or whatever Blueger's increase is. You're creating a puzzle for next season while starting $1.75M in the hole. Your model involves multiple moves. Which may or may not work out. The buyout just kicks the can down the road. Plus, although it's not our money, a $1.45M savings is part of the equation when you're starving for real $$$. It does matter. You are concerned about this season only, while they have to think ahead.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby thehockeyguru on Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:25 pm

longtimefan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
longtimefan wrote:To those who have suggested they buy out Bjugstad but are now throwing a fit, what's your reasoning? In essence, they just did. A buyout would have cost them $3.5M in real dollars, and a cap hit this season of $600K, and next season, $1.75M. So they decided to take a $2.05M hit this season, without a hit next season. Plus a real dollars saving of $1.45M, which is relevant when you're starved for revenue. If you sign Lafferty for the minimum, the $1.5M in savings will be pay all but $50K of his and Blueger's salaries this season.


Here is why the Bjugstad trade is dumb. 600k > 2.05M this season (1.405M additional salary)

1. The cap is flat so players are more likely looking for short 1-2 year deals with a higher AAV vs a lower salary over a longer term. There is financial uncertainty with regards to the cap for the next several years so teams are more reluctant to give more term. What if the Pens top target for 3C wants a 1yr 4M deal vs a 2-3 year 2.5M deal. That difference in buying out vs retaining makes a HUGE difference, thee difference in getting your guy or not.

2. The Pens have (2) players Poulin and POJ who I'm willing to bet will be full-time NHL players next season. Those ELC's can replace more expensive players who dont produce. Example: Pens sign McCann to a 1yr 2.9M deal this offseason. McCann plays LW and regresses to the point Poulin is a better option at 3LW. The difference between McCann and Poulin is roughly 2M. By inserting Poulin for McCann you erase that 1.75M buyout money in 1 transaction.


You also have to allow for Marino's 3M+ increase next season. Or whatever Blueger's increase is. You're creating a puzzle for next season while starting $1.75M in the hole. Your model involves multiple moves. Which may or may not work out. The buyout just kicks the can down the road. Plus, although it's not our money, a $1.45M savings is part of the equation when you're starving for real $$$. It does matter. You are concerned about this season only, while they have to think ahead.


They could lose a good player ie top 4 defenseman to Seattle. They aren't going to be able to protect Letang, Dumoulin, Pettersson, and Marino. They couldgive a sweetener pick to take Hornqvist.

I'm not worried about next off season at all, there are plenty of ways to drop salary.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby FLPensFan on Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:51 pm

longtimefan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
longtimefan wrote:To those who have suggested they buy out Bjugstad but are now throwing a fit, what's your reasoning? In essence, they just did. A buyout would have cost them $3.5M in real dollars, and a cap hit this season of $600K, and next season, $1.75M. So they decided to take a $2.05M hit this season, without a hit next season. Plus a real dollars saving of $1.45M, which is relevant when you're starved for revenue. If you sign Lafferty for the minimum, the $1.5M in savings will be pay all but $50K of his and Blueger's salaries this season.


Here is why the Bjugstad trade is dumb. 600k > 2.05M this season (1.405M additional salary)

1. The cap is flat so players are more likely looking for short 1-2 year deals with a higher AAV vs a lower salary over a longer term. There is financial uncertainty with regards to the cap for the next several years so teams are more reluctant to give more term. What if the Pens top target for 3C wants a 1yr 4M deal vs a 2-3 year 2.5M deal. That difference in buying out vs retaining makes a HUGE difference, thee difference in getting your guy or not.

2. The Pens have (2) players Poulin and POJ who I'm willing to bet will be full-time NHL players next season. Those ELC's can replace more expensive players who dont produce. Example: Pens sign McCann to a 1yr 2.9M deal this offseason. McCann plays LW and regresses to the point Poulin is a better option at 3LW. The difference between McCann and Poulin is roughly 2M. By inserting Poulin for McCann you erase that 1.75M buyout money in 1 transaction.


You also have to allow for Marino's 3M+ increase next season. Or whatever Blueger's increase is. You're creating a puzzle for next season while starting $1.75M in the hole. Your model involves multiple moves. Which may or may not work out. The buyout just kicks the can down the road. Plus, although it's not our money, a $1.45M savings is part of the equation when you're starving for real $$$. It does matter. You are concerned about this season only, while they have to think ahead.

Was GMJR thinking seasons ahead when he signed Jack Johnson for 5 years?
Was GMJR thinking seasons ahead when he signed Tanev for 6 years?
How about those 5 years he gave Hornqvist, a player who takes a beating, who's play has already fallen off and whose body aint far behind?

GMJR has always been in win now mode, and that typically doesn't include making the team worse for the current season to focus on the next season.
How do you expect them to compete in free agency, by only offering one year contracts so they have money next year? That won't work out too well.
This is where some of the deals GMJR has signed are coming back to bite him in the ass. They didn't expect to have Marino, but they do. If you didn't give bad contracts to Hornqvist, Johnson, and yes, even Tanev, you wouldn't be in this type of situation. It's haphazard GMing.

What I suspect is going to happen is, next year, GMJR has to hope Seattle takes someone from them with some decent salary (Hornqvist, Johnson, Rust), or he has to move Letang next summer....or you may have to see where Marcus Pettersson is in his development, and decide on keeping Pettersson (if he has improved) or keeping Brian Dumoulin.

Those are the types of things GMJR has done by giving the Hornqvist contract, when people said who cares, you worry about that later. It's later already. Or when people said, aw, 3.5M isn't that much over his value so who cares that we paid him for 6 years term....well, it's time to care.

I understand how COVID has affected teams and finances.....but what I do have a hard time believing is GMJR going to Lemieux/Burkle and saying, I need to buyout Bjugstad...it would really help me maneuver this year, and ownership saying it's 3.5M real dollars, we just can't do that Jim. They are in win now mode, and if GMJR told him that was a necessary loss, they would have done it. But he didn't. He didn't consider it. He just said, hey Billy G wants him for nothing, let's do him a solid and give Bjugstad to him for nothing and pay half his salary. I also can't tell you what the trade market was, but, like past messes, maybe you try and get another team to take Bjugstad and prospect instead of eating salary.

At this point, I'm expecting Rutherford to sign a great, youngish 3rd pairing RD in free agency. He's only 26. He just needs a fresh start. Yep, let's go ahead and sign Codi Ceci for our 3rd pairing with JJ.
I'd tell you the 3C he's going to sign, too, but I can't find one right now that's terrible enough for GMJR to bite on.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby thehockeyguru on Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:05 pm

I'm worried when it comes to free agency, i feel like Rutherford is just going to dig the hole hes made deeper.

I really hope this coming season is the last of the Rutherford- Sullivan era.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby DelPen on Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:57 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
longtimefan wrote:To those who have suggested they buy out Bjugstad but are now throwing a fit, what's your reasoning? In essence, they just did. A buyout would have cost them $3.5M in real dollars, and a cap hit this season of $600K, and next season, $1.75M. So they decided to take a $2.05M hit this season, without a hit next season. Plus a real dollars saving of $1.45M, which is relevant when you're starved for revenue. If you sign Lafferty for the minimum, the $1.5M in savings will be pay all but $50K of his and Blueger's salaries this season.


Here is why the Bjugstad trade is dumb. 600k > 2.05M this season (1.405M additional salary)

1. The cap is flat so players are more likely looking for short 1-2 year deals with a higher AAV vs a lower salary over a longer term. There is financial uncertainty with regards to the cap for the next several years so teams are more reluctant to give more term. What if the Pens top target for 3C wants a 1yr 4M deal vs a 2-3 year 2.5M deal. That difference in buying out vs retaining makes a HUGE difference, thee difference in getting your guy or not.

2. The Pens have (2) players Poulin and POJ who I'm willing to bet will be full-time NHL players next season. Those ELC's can replace more expensive players who dont produce. Example: Pens sign McCann to a 1yr 2.9M deal this offseason. McCann plays LW and regresses to the point Poulin is a better option at 3LW. The difference between McCann and Poulin is roughly 2M. By inserting Poulin for McCann you erase that 1.75M buyout money in 1 transaction.


You also have to allow for Marino's 3M+ increase next season. Or whatever Blueger's increase is. You're creating a puzzle for next season while starting $1.75M in the hole. Your model involves multiple moves. Which may or may not work out. The buyout just kicks the can down the road. Plus, although it's not our money, a $1.45M savings is part of the equation when you're starving for real $$$. It does matter. You are concerned about this season only, while they have to think ahead.


They could lose a good player ie top 4 defenseman to Seattle. They aren't going to be able to protect Letang, Dumoulin, Pettersson, and Marino. They couldgive a sweetener pick to take Hornqvist.

I'm not worried about next off season at all, there are plenty of ways to drop salary.


Marino will be exempt so they can protect all of the current top 4. We really aren’t at any risk of losing anyone important unless of course we add in some better players that will force hard decisions. We can do 7F 3D this time.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby thehockeyguru on Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:13 pm

DelPen wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
longtimefan wrote:To those who have suggested they buy out Bjugstad but are now throwing a fit, what's your reasoning? In essence, they just did. A buyout would have cost them $3.5M in real dollars, and a cap hit this season of $600K, and next season, $1.75M. So they decided to take a $2.05M hit this season, without a hit next season. Plus a real dollars saving of $1.45M, which is relevant when you're starved for revenue. If you sign Lafferty for the minimum, the $1.5M in savings will be pay all but $50K of his and Blueger's salaries this season.


Here is why the Bjugstad trade is dumb. 600k > 2.05M this season (1.405M additional salary)

1. The cap is flat so players are more likely looking for short 1-2 year deals with a higher AAV vs a lower salary over a longer term. There is financial uncertainty with regards to the cap for the next several years so teams are more reluctant to give more term. What if the Pens top target for 3C wants a 1yr 4M deal vs a 2-3 year 2.5M deal. That difference in buying out vs retaining makes a HUGE difference, thee difference in getting your guy or not.

2. The Pens have (2) players Poulin and POJ who I'm willing to bet will be full-time NHL players next season. Those ELC's can replace more expensive players who dont produce. Example: Pens sign McCann to a 1yr 2.9M deal this offseason. McCann plays LW and regresses to the point Poulin is a better option at 3LW. The difference between McCann and Poulin is roughly 2M. By inserting Poulin for McCann you erase that 1.75M buyout money in 1 transaction.


You also have to allow for Marino's 3M+ increase next season. Or whatever Blueger's increase is. You're creating a puzzle for next season while starting $1.75M in the hole. Your model involves multiple moves. Which may or may not work out. The buyout just kicks the can down the road. Plus, although it's not our money, a $1.45M savings is part of the equation when you're starving for real $$$. It does matter. You are concerned about this season only, while they have to think ahead.


They could lose a good player ie top 4 defenseman to Seattle. They aren't going to be able to protect Letang, Dumoulin, Pettersson, and Marino. They couldgive a sweetener pick to take Hornqvist.

I'm not worried about next off season at all, there are plenty of ways to drop salary.


Marino will be exempt so they can protect all of the current top 4. We really aren’t at any risk of losing anyone important unless of course we add in some better players that will force hard decisions. We can do 7F 3D this time.


You're right Marino is exempt. I can see the Pens offering a pick for Seattle to select Hornqvist.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby longtimefan on Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:57 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
longtimefan wrote:To those who have suggested they buy out Bjugstad but are now throwing a fit, what's your reasoning? In essence, they just did. A buyout would have cost them $3.5M in real dollars, and a cap hit this season of $600K, and next season, $1.75M. So they decided to take a $2.05M hit this season, without a hit next season. Plus a real dollars saving of $1.45M, which is relevant when you're starved for revenue. If you sign Lafferty for the minimum, the $1.5M in savings will be pay all but $50K of his and Blueger's salaries this season.


Here is why the Bjugstad trade is dumb. 600k > 2.05M this season (1.405M additional salary)

1. The cap is flat so players are more likely looking for short 1-2 year deals with a higher AAV vs a lower salary over a longer term. There is financial uncertainty with regards to the cap for the next several years so teams are more reluctant to give more term. What if the Pens top target for 3C wants a 1yr 4M deal vs a 2-3 year 2.5M deal. That difference in buying out vs retaining makes a HUGE difference, thee difference in getting your guy or not.

2. The Pens have (2) players Poulin and POJ who I'm willing to bet will be full-time NHL players next season. Those ELC's can replace more expensive players who dont produce. Example: Pens sign McCann to a 1yr 2.9M deal this offseason. McCann plays LW and regresses to the point Poulin is a better option at 3LW. The difference between McCann and Poulin is roughly 2M. By inserting Poulin for McCann you erase that 1.75M buyout money in 1 transaction.


You also have to allow for Marino's 3M+ increase next season. Or whatever Blueger's increase is. You're creating a puzzle for next season while starting $1.75M in the hole. Your model involves multiple moves. Which may or may not work out. The buyout just kicks the can down the road. Plus, although it's not our money, a $1.45M savings is part of the equation when you're starving for real $$$. It does matter. You are concerned about this season only, while they have to think ahead.


They could lose a good player ie top 4 defenseman to Seattle. They aren't going to be able to protect Letang, Dumoulin, Pettersson, and Marino. They couldgive a sweetener pick to take Hornqvist.

I'm not worried about next off season at all, there are plenty of ways to drop salary.


Marino is exempt. We will agree to disagree. Not having any concerns about next season is foolish. You say there's plenty of ways to drop salary, but it doesn't seem to be so easy this season. Why should that change with a flat cap? Starting $1.75M in the hole is something to avoid if possible.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby longtimefan on Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:02 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
longtimefan wrote:To those who have suggested they buy out Bjugstad but are now throwing a fit, what's your reasoning? In essence, they just did. A buyout would have cost them $3.5M in real dollars, and a cap hit this season of $600K, and next season, $1.75M. So they decided to take a $2.05M hit this season, without a hit next season. Plus a real dollars saving of $1.45M, which is relevant when you're starved for revenue. If you sign Lafferty for the minimum, the $1.5M in savings will be pay all but $50K of his and Blueger's salaries this season.


Here is why the Bjugstad trade is dumb. 600k > 2.05M this season (1.405M additional salary)

1. The cap is flat so players are more likely looking for short 1-2 year deals with a higher AAV vs a lower salary over a longer term. There is financial uncertainty with regards to the cap for the next several years so teams are more reluctant to give more term. What if the Pens top target for 3C wants a 1yr 4M deal vs a 2-3 year 2.5M deal. That difference in buying out vs retaining makes a HUGE difference, thee difference in getting your guy or not.

2. The Pens have (2) players Poulin and POJ who I'm willing to bet will be full-time NHL players next season. Those ELC's can replace more expensive players who dont produce. Example: Pens sign McCann to a 1yr 2.9M deal this offseason. McCann plays LW and regresses to the point Poulin is a better option at 3LW. The difference between McCann and Poulin is roughly 2M. By inserting Poulin for McCann you erase that 1.75M buyout money in 1 transaction.


You also have to allow for Marino's 3M+ increase next season. Or whatever Blueger's increase is. You're creating a puzzle for next season while starting $1.75M in the hole. Your model involves multiple moves. Which may or may not work out. The buyout just kicks the can down the road. Plus, although it's not our money, a $1.45M savings is part of the equation when you're starving for real $$$. It does matter. You are concerned about this season only, while they have to think ahead.

Was GMJR thinking seasons ahead when he signed Jack Johnson for 5 years?
Was GMJR thinking seasons ahead when he signed Tanev for 6 years?
How about those 5 years he gave Hornqvist, a player who takes a beating, who's play has already fallen off and whose body aint far behind?

GMJR has always been in win now mode, and that typically doesn't include making the team worse for the current season to focus on the next season.
How do you expect them to compete in free agency, by only offering one year contracts so they have money next year? That won't work out too well.
This is where some of the deals GMJR has signed are coming back to bite him in the ass. They didn't expect to have Marino, but they do. If you didn't give bad contracts to Hornqvist, Johnson, and yes, even Tanev, you wouldn't be in this type of situation. It's haphazard GMing.

What I suspect is going to happen is, next year, GMJR has to hope Seattle takes someone from them with some decent salary (Hornqvist, Johnson, Rust), or he has to move Letang next summer....or you may have to see where Marcus Pettersson is in his development, and decide on keeping Pettersson (if he has improved) or keeping Brian Dumoulin.

Those are the types of things GMJR has done by giving the Hornqvist contract, when people said who cares, you worry about that later. It's later already. Or when people said, aw, 3.5M isn't that much over his value so who cares that we paid him for 6 years term....well, it's time to care.

I understand how COVID has affected teams and finances.....but what I do have a hard time believing is GMJR going to Lemieux/Burkle and saying, I need to buyout Bjugstad...it would really help me maneuver this year, and ownership saying it's 3.5M real dollars, we just can't do that Jim. They are in win now mode, and if GMJR told him that was a necessary loss, they would have done it. But he didn't. He didn't consider it. He just said, hey Billy G wants him for nothing, let's do him a solid and give Bjugstad to him for nothing and pay half his salary. I also can't tell you what the trade market was, but, like past messes, maybe you try and get another team to take Bjugstad and prospect instead of eating salary.

At this point, I'm expecting Rutherford to sign a great, youngish 3rd pairing RD in free agency. He's only 26. He just needs a fresh start. Yep, let's go ahead and sign Codi Ceci for our 3rd pairing with JJ.
I'd tell you the 3C he's going to sign, too, but I can't find one right now that's terrible enough for GMJR to bite on.


Win now has always referred to the Crosby/Malkin window. I'm a little perplexed that nobody seems to believe that the real dollar savings isn't important. In a league where teams are so concerned about finances that many apparently are hoping to set an internal cap $5M-$10M under the actual cap. Every business, big or small, has to be conscious of expenditures. Putting yourself in a hole for the final season of the era seems very shortsighted.

I believe the JR criticism is over the top and largely two faced. You're a genius when it works, a buffoon when it doesn't. People complain about trading futures, but turn around and complain when they consider the future. Was signing JJ thinking about the future? The answer is yes. They felt he would be a fit. Not just JR. The staff was on board. The reason for the 5 years, as you pointed out a while back, was to keep the cap hit down. Was he thinking ahead with Horny? He absolutely was. Otherwise he wouldn't have structured the contract to remove his NTC after the upcoming season. Of course, the pandemic has put everybody in a bind.

You complain about all the messes. But look around the league. JVR is owed $7M for 3 more years, and was a healthy scratch for part of the playoffs. How about Kyle Turris and his $6M cap hit for 4 more seasons in Nashville? Chicago hopes Seabrook can't come back with 4 years left at $6.875M for 4 more years. It expires when he's 39. The Pens do not have a contract outside of Crosby's that will expire beyond the age of 35. Look around. Those contracts exist all over the league. It's handicapped the Wings, Hawks, and Kings for years. JR didn't give a lot of term to older players until Horny, JJ, and Tanev. But they were seen as being able to help during the window, and their contracts were knowingly set to expire afterward.

I will strongly disagree with your assessment that JR never has an eye to the future. If that were the case, he'd bring in UFA's at the deadline for a playoff push indiscriminately. He structured the '16 Cup winning team so as to bring back the ENTIRE team less Lovejoy for the next season. Unheard of in today's league. The Hawks had to re-structure because of the cap after each Cup win. The Pens brought everybody back. It can't be done forever, and he eventually had to let Bonino, Daley, and Kunitz walk. But he set out to do the same thing again. If the Brassard deal would have panned out, it was set up to bring everybody back again. How many UFA's leave on an annual basis? This season it's Schultz, Marleau, and Sheary. Nothing of real note. Some believed JR was shortsighted by ONLY signing Schutz for 3 years. JR made the right call. Bringing in Sheary and Marleau were exceptions this season. Partly in response to the closing window. Many on here thought this was the deepest set of forwards the team has had since Crosby was drafted. Even then, both players were brought in with an eye toward retaining them if they proved successful. Hainsey was brought in to address an emergency. Streit was no more than depth. Perhaps we could have gotten Taylor Hall for the price of Zucker. How would that look now? Every acquisition he's made of note has been with an eye toward multiple seasons.

When the Pens were on top, everybody wanted to know JR's secret. He mentioned that every move had to have not only the current season in mind, but subsequent seasons as well. He was referring specifically to cap management. You have to think one and two years down the road. You have to know what's on the horizon. Such as Marino's deal. Having term allows you to blueprint your team moving forward. There's a drawback, since it limits what you can do in free agency. An argument with some merit in some circumstances. But it's not been JR's MO since he's been here with the exception of the 1st season when he was given very little time to study the franchise. So he did what was prudent and gave out all one year deals. Since then, I can't remember any one year deals except Cullen.

Armchair GM's sit here and cry old and senile. Armchair GM's who have no clue about what's going on behind the scenes. Armchair GM's will ***** and moan when the cap starts in a $1.75M hole next season. I guess you believe that Guerin really wanted to put the screws to JR? Minny has the cap room to absorb Nick's full cap hit. But not if Guerin is under pressure to cut payroll. You can't believe that JR couldn't have done better. Even though he's likely had conversations with every other GM in the league. Even though many of the league insiders are predicting chaos because of teams looking to cut payroll.

JR is not a perfect GM. But he was voted into the HOF by his peers. The only older GM in the league was just given the GM of the year award. Look around. Which team has managed the cap better since it's implementation? The Wings, Hawks, and Kings? That's the comparisons. Teams that win and try to stay near the top. Teams whose players are justly awarded for contributing to a championship.

JR makes moves. When you do that, you're open to criticism. Like the beating he took when acquiring Zucker. Tunnel vision. Jumping to conclusions. Then watching Tampa trade two 1sts and a top 50 prospect to bring in Coleman and Goodrow. People felt that Rust was severely overpaid. A contract some believe they should move now while Rust's value he high. Which is counter intuitive to a win now mode. A $3.5M cap hit who has 45 goals in his last 100 games? A huge part of the Kapenen trade was his $3.2M cap hit for the next two seasons. Two seasons. Not one. The window.

Hindsight is always 20/20. People complained nearly as much about Tanev's contract as they did JJ's. Any GM making moves is going to make good and bad moves. JR has never been afraid to make moves. He's always been able to dig out. The pandemic is a new challenge.

JR has to consider next season as well as this one. Regardless, there will be ******** and moaning next offseason too. Reserve judgement until you see what other moves are made around the league. I suspect he is much more attuned than all of us put together in terms of the climate. Something his quotes were clear about if you read them. Saving an extra $1.45 this season by buying Bjugstad out while carrying an additional penalty of $1.75M next is very shortsighted. Especially if the Pens are planning to spend to the cap in a season many will not be. You start with an advantage.

You're very cynical about what you believe is next. I realize the Pens are the only team we care about, but not understanding the climate around the league is foolish. Have you figured out how Tampa is going to navigate with just over $5.3M in cap space with a roster of 15? Penguin fans are the most spoiled in the league and it's not close. The chances of winning a cup is slim and none. But that's every year in a league of 31 teams. The Pens' success is their curse.

So far there have been three trades in the league. Two by the Pens. They are being judged in a vacuum. Let's see how it plays out between now and next year's deadline. Not the start of the season. The deadline. That's been true since the '80's. But any suggestion JR makes moves without considering the future is false. Period. At least as it relates to the cap. In this case, that future has two seasons remaining. Not one.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby KG on Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:43 pm

longtimefan wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
longtimefan wrote:To those who have suggested they buy out Bjugstad but are now throwing a fit, what's your reasoning? In essence, they just did. A buyout would have cost them $3.5M in real dollars, and a cap hit this season of $600K, and next season, $1.75M. So they decided to take a $2.05M hit this season, without a hit next season. Plus a real dollars saving of $1.45M, which is relevant when you're starved for revenue. If you sign Lafferty for the minimum, the $1.5M in savings will be pay all but $50K of his and Blueger's salaries this season.


Here is why the Bjugstad trade is dumb. 600k > 2.05M this season (1.405M additional salary)

1. The cap is flat so players are more likely looking for short 1-2 year deals with a higher AAV vs a lower salary over a longer term. There is financial uncertainty with regards to the cap for the next several years so teams are more reluctant to give more term. What if the Pens top target for 3C wants a 1yr 4M deal vs a 2-3 year 2.5M deal. That difference in buying out vs retaining makes a HUGE difference, thee difference in getting your guy or not.

2. The Pens have (2) players Poulin and POJ who I'm willing to bet will be full-time NHL players next season. Those ELC's can replace more expensive players who dont produce. Example: Pens sign McCann to a 1yr 2.9M deal this offseason. McCann plays LW and regresses to the point Poulin is a better option at 3LW. The difference between McCann and Poulin is roughly 2M. By inserting Poulin for McCann you erase that 1.75M buyout money in 1 transaction.


You also have to allow for Marino's 3M+ increase next season. Or whatever Blueger's increase is. You're creating a puzzle for next season while starting $1.75M in the hole. Your model involves multiple moves. Which may or may not work out. The buyout just kicks the can down the road. Plus, although it's not our money, a $1.45M savings is part of the equation when you're starving for real $$$. It does matter. You are concerned about this season only, while they have to think ahead.

Was GMJR thinking seasons ahead when he signed Jack Johnson for 5 years?
Was GMJR thinking seasons ahead when he signed Tanev for 6 years?
How about those 5 years he gave Hornqvist, a player who takes a beating, who's play has already fallen off and whose body aint far behind?

GMJR has always been in win now mode, and that typically doesn't include making the team worse for the current season to focus on the next season.
How do you expect them to compete in free agency, by only offering one year contracts so they have money next year? That won't work out too well.
This is where some of the deals GMJR has signed are coming back to bite him in the ass. They didn't expect to have Marino, but they do. If you didn't give bad contracts to Hornqvist, Johnson, and yes, even Tanev, you wouldn't be in this type of situation. It's haphazard GMing.

What I suspect is going to happen is, next year, GMJR has to hope Seattle takes someone from them with some decent salary (Hornqvist, Johnson, Rust), or he has to move Letang next summer....or you may have to see where Marcus Pettersson is in his development, and decide on keeping Pettersson (if he has improved) or keeping Brian Dumoulin.

Those are the types of things GMJR has done by giving the Hornqvist contract, when people said who cares, you worry about that later. It's later already. Or when people said, aw, 3.5M isn't that much over his value so who cares that we paid him for 6 years term....well, it's time to care.

I understand how COVID has affected teams and finances.....but what I do have a hard time believing is GMJR going to Lemieux/Burkle and saying, I need to buyout Bjugstad...it would really help me maneuver this year, and ownership saying it's 3.5M real dollars, we just can't do that Jim. They are in win now mode, and if GMJR told him that was a necessary loss, they would have done it. But he didn't. He didn't consider it. He just said, hey Billy G wants him for nothing, let's do him a solid and give Bjugstad to him for nothing and pay half his salary. I also can't tell you what the trade market was, but, like past messes, maybe you try and get another team to take Bjugstad and prospect instead of eating salary.

At this point, I'm expecting Rutherford to sign a great, youngish 3rd pairing RD in free agency. He's only 26. He just needs a fresh start. Yep, let's go ahead and sign Codi Ceci for our 3rd pairing with JJ.
I'd tell you the 3C he's going to sign, too, but I can't find one right now that's terrible enough for GMJR to bite on.


Win now has always referred to the Crosby/Malkin window. I'm a little perplexed that nobody seems to believe that the real dollar savings isn't important. In a league where teams are so concerned about finances that many apparently are hoping to set an internal cap $5M-$10M under the actual cap. Every business, big or small, has to be conscious of expenditures. Putting yourself in a hole for the final season of the era seems very shortsighted.

I believe the JR criticism is over the top and largely two faced. You're a genius when it works, a buffoon when it doesn't. People complain about trading futures, but turn around and complain when they consider the future. Was signing JJ thinking about the future? The answer is yes. They felt he would be a fit. Not just JR. The staff was on board. The reason for the 5 years, as you pointed out a while back, was to keep the cap hit down. Was he thinking ahead with Horny? He absolutely was. Otherwise he wouldn't have structured the contract to remove his NTC after the upcoming season. Of course, the pandemic has put everybody in a bind.

You complain about all the messes. But look around the league. JVR is owed $7M for 3 more years, and was a healthy scratch for part of the playoffs. How about Kyle Turris and his $6M cap hit for 4 more seasons in Nashville? Chicago hopes Seabrook can't come back with 4 years left at $6.875M for 4 more years. It expires when he's 39. The Pens do not have a contract outside of Crosby's that will expire beyond the age of 35. Look around. Those contracts exist all over the league. It's handicapped the Wings, Hawks, and Kings for years. JR didn't give a lot of term to older players until Horny, JJ, and Tanev. But they were seen as being able to help during the window, and their contracts were knowingly set to expire afterward.

I will strongly disagree with your assessment that JR never has an eye to the future. If that were the case, he'd bring in UFA's at the deadline for a playoff push indiscriminately. He structured the '16 Cup winning team so as to bring back the ENTIRE team less Lovejoy for the next season. Unheard of in today's league. The Hawks had to re-structure because of the cap after each Cup win. The Pens brought everybody back. It can't be done forever, and he eventually had to let Bonino, Daley, and Kunitz walk. But he set out to do the same thing again. If the Brassard deal would have panned out, it was set up to bring everybody back again. How many UFA's leave on an annual basis? This season it's Schultz, Marleau, and Sheary. Nothing of real note. Some believed JR was shortsighted by ONLY signing Schutz for 3 years. JR made the right call. Bringing in Sheary and Marleau were exceptions this season. Partly in response to the closing window. Many on here thought this was the deepest set of forwards the team has had since Crosby was drafted. Even then, both players were brought in with an eye toward retaining them if they proved successful. Hainsey was brought in to address an emergency. Streit was no more than depth. Perhaps we could have gotten Taylor Hall for the price of Zucker. How would that look now? Every acquisition he's made of note has been with an eye toward multiple seasons.

When the Pens were on top, everybody wanted to know JR's secret. He mentioned that every move had to have not only the current season in mind, but subsequent seasons as well. He was referring specifically to cap management. You have to think one and two years down the road. You have to know what's on the horizon. Such as Marino's deal. Having term allows you to blueprint your team moving forward. There's a drawback, since it limits what you can do in free agency. An argument with some merit in some circumstances. But it's not been JR's MO since he's been here with the exception of the 1st season when he was given very little time to study the franchise. So he did what was prudent and gave out all one year deals. Since then, I can't remember any one year deals except Cullen.

Armchair GM's sit here and cry old and senile. Armchair GM's who have no clue about what's going on behind the scenes. Armchair GM's will ***** and moan when the cap starts in a $1.75M hole next season. I guess you believe that Guerin really wanted to put the screws to JR? Minny has the cap room to absorb Nick's full cap hit. But not if Guerin is under pressure to cut payroll. You can't believe that JR couldn't have done better. Even though he's likely had conversations with every other GM in the league. Even though many of the league insiders are predicting chaos because of teams looking to cut payroll.

JR is not a perfect GM. But he was voted into the HOF by his peers. The only older GM in the league was just given the GM of the year award. Look around. Which team has managed the cap better since it's implementation? The Wings, Hawks, and Kings? That's the comparisons. Teams that win and try to stay near the top. Teams whose players are justly awarded for contributing to a championship.

JR makes moves. When you do that, you're open to criticism. Like the beating he took when acquiring Zucker. Tunnel vision. Jumping to conclusions. Then watching Tampa trade two 1sts and a top 50 prospect to bring in Coleman and Goodrow. People felt that Rust was severely overpaid. A contract some believe they should move now while Rust's value he high. Which is counter intuitive to a win now mode. A $3.5M cap hit who has 45 goals in his last 100 games? A huge part of the Kapenen trade was his $3.2M cap hit for the next two seasons. Two seasons. Not one. The window.

Hindsight is always 20/20. People complained nearly as much about Tanev's contract as they did JJ's. Any GM making moves is going to make good and bad moves. JR has never been afraid to make moves. He's always been able to dig out. The pandemic is a new challenge.

JR has to consider next season as well as this one. Regardless, there will be ******** and moaning next offseason too. Reserve judgement until you see what other moves are made around the league. I suspect he is much more attuned than all of us put together in terms of the climate. Something his quotes were clear about if you read them. Saving an extra $1.45 this season by buying Bjugstad out while carrying an additional penalty of $1.75M next is very shortsighted. Especially if the Pens are planning to spend to the cap in a season many will not be. You start with an advantage.

You're very cynical about what you believe is next. I realize the Pens are the only team we care about, but not understanding the climate around the league is foolish. Have you figured out how Tampa is going to navigate with just over $5.3M in cap space with a roster of 15? Penguin fans are the most spoiled in the league and it's not close. The chances of winning a cup is slim and none. But that's every year in a league of 31 teams. The Pens' success is their curse.

So far there have been three trades in the league. Two by the Pens. They are being judged in a vacuum. Let's see how it plays out between now and next year's deadline. Not the start of the season. The deadline. That's been true since the '80's. But any suggestion JR makes moves without considering the future is false. Period. At least as it relates to the cap. In this case, that future has two seasons remaining. Not one.


Good post, and I agree. JR has been trying to re-tool the team and keep supporting the core by bringing in young, but established players. ie Zucker. 27 year old 30 goal scorer. They don't grow on trees. Kapanen, 24 year old top 6 wing. etc.

If he didn't care about the future he would be trading for rental UFA's or trading real assets for expensive veterans.

He has a hard job in trying to re-tool the supporting cast while trying to remain a contender. I'll take JR and his aggressiveness any day compared to a sit on your hands type of GM who is afraid to make a move.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby murphydump55 on Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:52 pm

Kapanen isn’t a proven top 6 wing though.

Also, are those the 2 longest back to back quotes ever?
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby thehockeyguru on Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:27 pm

I totally understand that GMs make moves and they don't turn out as planned. Like i said in a previous post, what bothers me is casual fans called out how dumb the JJ signing was, how we'd regret the Hornqvist deal, and how the Tanev deal was bad in both amount and term. The casual fan predicted correctly how detrimental they were but our GM couldn't see it? That's what bothers me, the casual fan shouldn't be a better evaluator of talent.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby murphydump55 on Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:00 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:I totally understand that GMs make moves and they don't turn out as planned. Like i said in a previous post, what bothers me is casual fans called out how dumb the JJ signing was, how we'd regret the Hornqvist deal, and how the Tanev deal was bad in both amount and term. The casual fan predicted correctly how detrimental they were but our GM couldn't see it? That's what bothers me, the casual fan shouldn't be a better evaluator of talent.


This. You had the “if Jack Johnson is physical like his highlights show, I welcome him here, we need that”. Yeah but he’s always stunk and his contract makes it worse.

“Tanev is awesome and is fast and hits a lot”. Sure, but he’s a 4th liner, not a 3rd like many tried to make you believe. Again, a dumb contract. He started our drawing a bunch of penalties, then fizzled hard. Hey, we have a 4th liner locked in!!

“Hornqvist is the heart of this team. We need him!” I don’t disagree that he provides a pulse. What he wasn’t providing any longer was top 6 play. He isn’t this must on the power play either. He’s up there in age for the game he plays and it won’t get any easier. He’s effective 5 feet out from the net and that’s about it.

So we have a 4th liner, a 3rd liner, and a horrible 3rd pairing D that is probably more of a 7th dman at best.

The cost? 12 million a season. Not good.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby Antonio on Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:04 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:I totally understand that GMs make moves and they don't turn out as planned. Like i said in a previous post, what bothers me is casual fans called out how dumb the JJ signing was, how we'd regret the Hornqvist deal, and how the Tanev deal was bad in both amount and term. The casual fan predicted correctly how detrimental they were but our GM couldn't see it? That's what bothers me, the casual fan shouldn't be a better evaluator of talent.


This is 100 percent true. What the bulk of fans can accurately predict the errors in signings over and over and over, there is a problem.
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby Cow_Master66 on Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:17 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:I totally understand that GMs make moves and they don't turn out as planned. Like i said in a previous post, what bothers me is casual fans called out how dumb the JJ signing was, how we'd regret the Hornqvist deal, and how the Tanev deal was bad in both amount and term. The casual fan predicted correctly how detrimental they were but our GM couldn't see it? That's what bothers me, the casual fan shouldn't be a better evaluator of talent.


A subset of casual fans call out every transaction as dumb so of course they pound their chest when they are “right”. I always go back to how many ******** and moaned when we brought in Shultz and Lovejoy. 80+% of the posts were negative...Message board posters really shouldn’t take themselves so seriously.

I lump myself in here to btw...i just like to talk and read about hockey, but the yinzer struggle is real and fairly embarrassing to boot. I haven’t liked Pittsburgh sports fans for quite some time, but Pens fans I always thought were better than many if our peers. Now they are just spoiled know it alls...
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Re: Bjugstad to Minny

Postby sjnhiils on Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:50 pm

Cow_Master66 wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:I totally understand that GMs make moves and they don't turn out as planned. Like i said in a previous post, what bothers me is casual fans called out how dumb the JJ signing was, how we'd regret the Hornqvist deal, and how the Tanev deal was bad in both amount and term. The casual fan predicted correctly how detrimental they were but our GM couldn't see it? That's what bothers me, the casual fan shouldn't be a better evaluator of talent.


A subset of casual fans call out every transaction as dumb so of course they pound their chest when they are “right”. I always go back to how many ******** and moaned when we brought in Shultz and Lovejoy. 80+% of the posts were negative...Message board posters really shouldn’t take themselves so seriously.

I lump myself in here to btw...i just like to talk and read about hockey, but the yinzer struggle is real and fairly embarrassing to boot. I haven’t liked Pittsburgh sports fans for quite some time, but Pens fans I always thought were better than many if our peers. Now they are just spoiled know it alls...

Yea, it's only Pittburgh fans that blame the goalie,coach ,g.m., quarterback, and the starting pitching. It's just as bad if not worse in most other cities. There is enough of ripping the yinzer fans on Madden"s show already!!
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