Where does the roster go from here?

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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby FLPensFan on Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:08 pm

longtimefan wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
longtimefan wrote:However, again, you had GMJR out there talking about how the team wanted to be active, lots of changes are coming, etc, etc, instead of talking about how he would LIKE TO BE ACTIVE, but needs to see what the landscape is with a flat cap. GMJR brings a lot of heat on himself by being such a blabbermouth. Of course, I don't expect him to sit here and tell me "We cannot make any moves. There is no cap space." or "I am targeting Joe Juneau and Dick Tarnstrom in free agency," but he makes comments, often and seemingly every year, that serve no purpose and make him look like a fool.

I applaud him for getting 2 deals done early, but again, I look squarely at the Johnson, Hornqvist, and Tanev deals right now, on how they all got 500K-1M overpaid, and how they all got too much term. It is coming back with a vengeance right now.


As far as the contracts, you've just highlighted of free agency. Horny isn't overpaid based on production. Just on age and potential injury. And he deserved a little extra for getting them where they wanted to go. Twice.

Patric Hornqvist is about to start his 3rd year of his contract.

The 2 seasons's before he signed his new deal, here were his totals:
16-17: 21 goals, 44 points, 10PPG in 70 games; 19 playoff games, 5 goals, 9 points, 1 PPG
17-18: 29 goals, 49 points, 15PPG in 70 games; 10 playoff games, 5 goals, 11 points, 2 PPG

Signs a 5.3M AAV 5 year deal:
18-19: 18 goals, 37 points, 6PPG in 69 games; 4 playoff games, 0 points
19-20: 17 goals, 32 points, 3PPG in 52 games; 4 playoff games, 1 goal, 2 points, 1PPG

In 12 seasons, Patric Hornqvist has been a mid-40's to mid 50's point along with 20+ goals, 8 times. The 4 seasons he did not hit those marks:
--His rookie year, when he only played 28 games.
--The lockout season, where he only played 24 games.
--18-19 and 19-20 seasons.

Over the past 2 seasons, Hornqvist has 2 more goals and 1 less point than Jared McCann has had over the past 2 seasons. I don't think anyone here wants to pay Jared McCann 5.3M, let alone anything above 4M.

It's a bad deal. GMJR rewarded him for a couple of successful seasons knowing full well the type of punishment he has taken and how players like Johan Franzen and Tomas Holmstrom were completely worn down by their mid-30's. GMJR should have been much more cautious with the Hornqvist. A little extra is fine, but 1.5-2M extra.....that's a luxury gift.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby Daniel on Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:51 pm

pens_CT wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
DelPen wrote:You pretty much nailed it, want to upgrade the defense we need to move Johnson. Want to upgrade the third line we need to move Hornqvist, McCann or both. Biggest asset to make a huge move is use the value Murray had and write off bad contracts. There should be a team that wants him enough and had the cap space to take in Johnson and McCann either sending us back a 3C or picks and prospects and try over free agency.

I keep looking back at Colorado, they could use both Murray and Hornqvist and even Johnson if we take Grubauer back for his one year left which isn’t a bad insurance move if Jarry implodes.


I dont see the appeal of moving McCann rightnow, he should be the 3LW. He had a horrible goal drought and still put up 35 points. If he builds on last season he's a good trade chip. I think his value will go up so id hold him.

He's a perfect stop gap until Poulin is ready. Sign McCann to a 1 or 2 year deal and move him for a position of need once Poulin is ready.


If he is looking for near 3 million next year, then move him. Unless he is scoring goals, what does he bring to this team? The guy went 20 plus games without scoring a goal, you can't give him that kind of money with a frozen cap.


Typically players get 100k per point. Given his age McCann would likely be a 3-3.5M player as a free agent. Give him a 1-2yr 2.75-3M deal and leave him at his best position LW. He's 24, let him continue to grow and stop experimenting with position changes.. The team wants to get younger and faster you dont do that by shipping out 24 yr olds with 20 goal potential.


By signing him, you're essentially sending Poulin back to juniors without him being able to compete for a spot (barring injuries in camp). I'd at least see what the market will give up for McCann, I certainly wouldn't give him away for nothing, but giving a guy close to 3 million, even on a one year deal, when he didn't produce over a long stretch is a bad idea. If McCann has another year like this one, he will have nearly zero trade value. The old "potential" label means nothing until it turns into production.


Trade Zucker if you think McCann can get better. You're saving $2M in cap space (assuming McCann gets $3M) and get younger. It'll end up 2 of McCann, Poulin, Zucker and the Penguins might have to remove the highest salary.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby longtimefan on Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:17 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
longtimefan wrote:However, again, you had GMJR out there talking about how the team wanted to be active, lots of changes are coming, etc, etc, instead of talking about how he would LIKE TO BE ACTIVE, but needs to see what the landscape is with a flat cap. GMJR brings a lot of heat on himself by being such a blabbermouth. Of course, I don't expect him to sit here and tell me "We cannot make any moves. There is no cap space." or "I am targeting Joe Juneau and Dick Tarnstrom in free agency," but he makes comments, often and seemingly every year, that serve no purpose and make him look like a fool.

I applaud him for getting 2 deals done early, but again, I look squarely at the Johnson, Hornqvist, and Tanev deals right now, on how they all got 500K-1M overpaid, and how they all got too much term. It is coming back with a vengeance right now.


As far as the contracts, you've just highlighted of free agency. Horny isn't overpaid based on production. Just on age and potential injury. And he deserved a little extra for getting them where they wanted to go. Twice.

Patric Hornqvist is about to start his 3rd year of his contract.

The 2 seasons's before he signed his new deal, here were his totals:
16-17: 21 goals, 44 points, 10PPG in 70 games; 19 playoff games, 5 goals, 9 points, 1 PPG
17-18: 29 goals, 49 points, 15PPG in 70 games; 10 playoff games, 5 goals, 11 points, 2 PPG

Signs a 5.3M AAV 5 year deal:
18-19: 18 goals, 37 points, 6PPG in 69 games; 4 playoff games, 0 points
19-20: 17 goals, 32 points, 3PPG in 52 games; 4 playoff games, 1 goal, 2 points, 1PPG

In 12 seasons, Patric Hornqvist has been a mid-40's to mid 50's point along with 20+ goals, 8 times. The 4 seasons he did not hit those marks:
--His rookie year, when he only played 28 games.
--The lockout season, where he only played 24 games.
--18-19 and 19-20 seasons.

Over the past 2 seasons, Hornqvist has 2 more goals and 1 less point than Jared McCann has had over the past 2 seasons. I don't think anyone here wants to pay Jared McCann 5.3M, let alone anything above 4M.

It's a bad deal. GMJR rewarded him for a couple of successful seasons knowing full well the type of punishment he has taken and how players like Johan Franzen and Tomas Holmstrom were completely worn down by their mid-30's. GMJR should have been much more cautious with the Hornqvist. A little extra is fine, but 1.5-2M extra.....that's a luxury gift.


If he's more cautious, he walks. He awarded him for past contributions. There is still a human element. I saw some outrage about JR taking shots at the team at the end of the season because of the human element. You can't have it both ways. I have no issue awarding past performance when it contributes to two cups.

McCann isn't a comparable. Comparing someone under team control is vastly different from the UFA market.

The best comparable in terms of playing style was likely Holmstrom. He retired at age 39. Hornqvist just turned 33. Holmstrom had 29, 30, and 20 goal seasons between the ages of 33 and 35. He was never nearly as complete a player as Horny.

Per capfreindly, these are their top 10 comparables.

Jordan Eberle $5.5M for 5 yrs signed at age 29.
James Neal $5.75M for 5 years at age 30.
Josh Bailey $5.0M for 6 years at age 28.
Mats Zuccarello $6.0M for 5 years at age 31.
James van Riemsdyk $7.0M for 5 years at age 29.
Mike Cammalleri $5.0M for 5 years signed in 2014 at age 32.
Jakob Silfverberg $5.25M for 5 years at age 28.
Gustav Nyquist $5.5M for 4 years at age 29.
Troy Brouwer $4.5M for 4 years at age 30. Signed in 2016.
Alex Steen $5.75M for 4 years signed at age 32 in 2017.

Lucic signed for $6.0M for 7 years at age 28. Pacioretty got $7M for 4 years at age 30.

You have to look at the landscape of the league. I believe the only two on that list that won a cup were Brouwer and Lucic. The option was letting Hornqvist walk. He was going to get that on the open market. And he still produced at a 27 goal pace this past season. You may see him as overpaid, but a GM can only operate under the climate of the league.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby longtimefan on Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:48 pm

I understand why JR would like to get to the point where he can participate in free agency. If trades can't be made in relatively short order, a lot of teams are going to have to go the buyout route, with contracts of one year remaining as the more likely candidates. Here's some likely candidates.

Arizona- Hjalmarsson (1.33M in savings), Goligoski ($2.67M), Grabner ($2.517), Stepan ($1.33)
Anaheim- Gudbranson ($2.0), Getzlaf (a long shot, $2M)
Vegas- Stastny ($3.67M), Martinez ($2.67M), Fleury ($2.583M)
St Louis- Steen (3.417M), Schwartz ($2.67M), Bozak ($2.833)
Tampa- Paquette ($1.1M)
Chicago- Saad ($4.33M), Smith ($2.167M)
Nashville- Bonino ($1.6M)
Philly- Laughton ($1.533M), Raffl (933K), Niskanen ($3.833M)

That's just the one year deals on teams with a current cap hit higher than the Pens. There will be plenty of others as teams try to shed payroll. And some that will require multiple years bought out. It's going to flood the UFA market, and all of these guys already have a paycheck coming from their soon to be former teams. Many will take hugely discounted contracts with a new team.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby thehockeyguru on Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:17 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
longtimefan wrote:However, again, you had GMJR out there talking about how the team wanted to be active, lots of changes are coming, etc, etc, instead of talking about how he would LIKE TO BE ACTIVE, but needs to see what the landscape is with a flat cap. GMJR brings a lot of heat on himself by being such a blabbermouth. Of course, I don't expect him to sit here and tell me "We cannot make any moves. There is no cap space." or "I am targeting Joe Juneau and Dick Tarnstrom in free agency," but he makes comments, often and seemingly every year, that serve no purpose and make him look like a fool.

I applaud him for getting 2 deals done early, but again, I look squarely at the Johnson, Hornqvist, and Tanev deals right now, on how they all got 500K-1M overpaid, and how they all got too much term. It is coming back with a vengeance right now.


As far as the contracts, you've just highlighted of free agency. Horny isn't overpaid based on production. Just on age and potential injury. And he deserved a little extra for getting them where they wanted to go. Twice.

Patric Hornqvist is about to start his 3rd year of his contract.

The 2 seasons's before he signed his new deal, here were his totals:
16-17: 21 goals, 44 points, 10PPG in 70 games; 19 playoff games, 5 goals, 9 points, 1 PPG
17-18: 29 goals, 49 points, 15PPG in 70 games; 10 playoff games, 5 goals, 11 points, 2 PPG

Signs a 5.3M AAV 5 year deal:
18-19: 18 goals, 37 points, 6PPG in 69 games; 4 playoff games, 0 points
19-20: 17 goals, 32 points, 3PPG in 52 games; 4 playoff games, 1 goal, 2 points, 1PPG

In 12 seasons, Patric Hornqvist has been a mid-40's to mid 50's point along with 20+ goals, 8 times. The 4 seasons he did not hit those marks:
--His rookie year, when he only played 28 games.
--The lockout season, where he only played 24 games.
--18-19 and 19-20 seasons.

Over the past 2 seasons, Hornqvist has 2 more goals and 1 less point than Jared McCann has had over the past 2 seasons. I don't think anyone here wants to pay Jared McCann 5.3M, let alone anything above 4M.

It's a bad deal. GMJR rewarded him for a couple of successful seasons knowing full well the type of punishment he has taken and how players like Johan Franzen and Tomas Holmstrom were completely worn down by their mid-30's. GMJR should have been much more cautious with the Hornqvist. A little extra is fine, but 1.5-2M extra.....that's a luxury gift.


It baffles me that people continue to defend the Hornqvist deal even after Rutherford just traded for Kapanen to improve the top 6.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby largegarlic on Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:20 pm

longtimefan wrote:I understand why JR would like to get to the point where he can participate in free agency. If trades can't be made in relatively short order, a lot of teams are going to have to go the buyout route, with contracts of one year remaining as the more likely candidates. Here's some likely candidates.

Arizona- Hjalmarsson (1.33M in savings), Goligoski ($2.67M), Grabner ($2.517), Stepan ($1.33)
Anaheim- Gudbranson ($2.0), Getzlaf (a long shot, $2M)
Vegas- Stastny ($3.67M), Martinez ($2.67M), Fleury ($2.583M)
St Louis- Steen (3.417M), Schwartz ($2.67M), Bozak ($2.833)
Tampa- Paquette ($1.1M)
Chicago- Saad ($4.33M), Smith ($2.167M)
Nashville- Bonino ($1.6M)
Philly- Laughton ($1.533M), Raffl (933K), Niskanen ($3.833M)

That's just the one year deals on teams with a current cap hit higher than the Pens. There will be plenty of others as teams try to shed payroll. And some that will require multiple years bought out. It's going to flood the UFA market, and all of these guys already have a paycheck coming from their soon to be former teams. Many will take hugely discounted contracts with a new team.


Yeah, I've been thinking about this too. If it's right that many (most?) teams won't have money, either cap space or actual money, and there will still be as many UFAs as normal, or more as you point out with the buyout scenarios, it seems like there have to be some real bargains in free agency. The top guys might still get paid as we'd expect, but there might be a whole slew of mid-tier free agents who will have to settle for pretty cheap deals. If Rutherford can get ahead of the market and have even a couple million available to play with when free agency starts, maybe he can do some good business.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby longtimefan on Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:34 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
longtimefan wrote:However, again, you had GMJR out there talking about how the team wanted to be active, lots of changes are coming, etc, etc, instead of talking about how he would LIKE TO BE ACTIVE, but needs to see what the landscape is with a flat cap. GMJR brings a lot of heat on himself by being such a blabbermouth. Of course, I don't expect him to sit here and tell me "We cannot make any moves. There is no cap space." or "I am targeting Joe Juneau and Dick Tarnstrom in free agency," but he makes comments, often and seemingly every year, that serve no purpose and make him look like a fool.

I applaud him for getting 2 deals done early, but again, I look squarely at the Johnson, Hornqvist, and Tanev deals right now, on how they all got 500K-1M overpaid, and how they all got too much term. It is coming back with a vengeance right now.


As far as the contracts, you've just highlighted of free agency. Horny isn't overpaid based on production. Just on age and potential injury. And he deserved a little extra for getting them where they wanted to go. Twice.

Patric Hornqvist is about to start his 3rd year of his contract.

The 2 seasons's before he signed his new deal, here were his totals:
16-17: 21 goals, 44 points, 10PPG in 70 games; 19 playoff games, 5 goals, 9 points, 1 PPG
17-18: 29 goals, 49 points, 15PPG in 70 games; 10 playoff games, 5 goals, 11 points, 2 PPG

Signs a 5.3M AAV 5 year deal:
18-19: 18 goals, 37 points, 6PPG in 69 games; 4 playoff games, 0 points
19-20: 17 goals, 32 points, 3PPG in 52 games; 4 playoff games, 1 goal, 2 points, 1PPG

In 12 seasons, Patric Hornqvist has been a mid-40's to mid 50's point along with 20+ goals, 8 times. The 4 seasons he did not hit those marks:
--His rookie year, when he only played 28 games.
--The lockout season, where he only played 24 games.
--18-19 and 19-20 seasons.

Over the past 2 seasons, Hornqvist has 2 more goals and 1 less point than Jared McCann has had over the past 2 seasons. I don't think anyone here wants to pay Jared McCann 5.3M, let alone anything above 4M.

It's a bad deal. GMJR rewarded him for a couple of successful seasons knowing full well the type of punishment he has taken and how players like Johan Franzen and Tomas Holmstrom were completely worn down by their mid-30's. GMJR should have been much more cautious with the Hornqvist. A little extra is fine, but 1.5-2M extra.....that's a luxury gift.


It baffles me that people continue to defend the Hornqvist deal even after Rutherford just traded for Kapanen to improve the top 6.


As I pointed out above, deals cannot be judged in a vacuum. It really has nothing to do with Kapanen. If the concern is $5.3M on your 3rd line, it's offset by Kapanen's $3.2M in the top 6. You judge the Hornqvist deal as of when it was made, not after a pandemic threw the league finances into chaos. Look at the comparables. I promise you that's what the agents look at. Perhaps they should have let him walk and signed JVR as a replacement.
Last edited by longtimefan on Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby Steve Dave on Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:36 pm

Is there any chance of the AHL not playing this season? Like if fans are not allowed, would they still play? Would they be able to play without that gate revenue (no tv deals).
If so, would the NHL allow a practice squad for NHL teams? Keeping AHLers fresh in case of injury.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby Steve Dave on Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:38 pm

longtimefan wrote:I understand why JR would like to get to the point where he can participate in free agency. If trades can't be made in relatively short order, a lot of teams are going to have to go the buyout route, with contracts of one year remaining as the more likely candidates. Here's some likely candidates.

Arizona- Hjalmarsson (1.33M in savings), Goligoski ($2.67M), Grabner ($2.517), Stepan ($1.33)
Anaheim- Gudbranson ($2.0), Getzlaf (a long shot, $2M)
Vegas- Stastny ($3.67M), Martinez ($2.67M), Fleury ($2.583M)
St Louis- Steen (3.417M), Schwartz ($2.67M), Bozak ($2.833)
Tampa- Paquette ($1.1M)
Chicago- Saad ($4.33M), Smith ($2.167M)
Nashville- Bonino ($1.6M)
Philly- Laughton ($1.533M), Raffl (933K), Niskanen ($3.833M)

That's just the one year deals on teams with a current cap hit higher than the Pens. There will be plenty of others as teams try to shed payroll. And some that will require multiple years bought out. It's going to flood the UFA market, and all of these guys already have a paycheck coming from their soon to be former teams. Many will take hugely discounted contracts with a new team.

Good point tho I believe Fleury has 2 years left.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby Steve Dave on Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:39 pm

longtimefan wrote:I understand why JR would like to get to the point where he can participate in free agency. If trades can't be made in relatively short order, a lot of teams are going to have to go the buyout route, with contracts of one year remaining as the more likely candidates. Here's some likely candidates.

Arizona- Hjalmarsson (1.33M in savings), Goligoski ($2.67M), Grabner ($2.517), Stepan ($1.33)
Anaheim- Gudbranson ($2.0), Getzlaf (a long shot, $2M)
Vegas- Stastny ($3.67M), Martinez ($2.67M), Fleury ($2.583M)
St Louis- Steen (3.417M), Schwartz ($2.67M), Bozak ($2.833)
Tampa- Paquette ($1.1M)
Chicago- Saad ($4.33M), Smith ($2.167M)
Nashville- Bonino ($1.6M)
Philly- Laughton ($1.533M), Raffl (933K), Niskanen ($3.833M)

That's just the one year deals on teams with a current cap hit higher than the Pens. There will be plenty of others as teams try to shed payroll. And some that will require multiple years bought out. It's going to flood the UFA market, and all of these guys already have a paycheck coming from their soon to be former teams. Many will take hugely discounted contracts with a new team.

Good point tho I believe Fleury has 2 years left.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby longtimefan on Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:40 pm

Steve Dave wrote:
longtimefan wrote:I understand why JR would like to get to the point where he can participate in free agency. If trades can't be made in relatively short order, a lot of teams are going to have to go the buyout route, with contracts of one year remaining as the more likely candidates. Here's some likely candidates.

Arizona- Hjalmarsson (1.33M in savings), Goligoski ($2.67M), Grabner ($2.517), Stepan ($1.33)
Anaheim- Gudbranson ($2.0), Getzlaf (a long shot, $2M)
Vegas- Stastny ($3.67M), Martinez ($2.67M), Fleury ($2.583M)
St Louis- Steen (3.417M), Schwartz ($2.67M), Bozak ($2.833)
Tampa- Paquette ($1.1M)
Chicago- Saad ($4.33M), Smith ($2.167M)
Nashville- Bonino ($1.6M)
Philly- Laughton ($1.533M), Raffl (933K), Niskanen ($3.833M)

That's just the one year deals on teams with a current cap hit higher than the Pens. There will be plenty of others as teams try to shed payroll. And some that will require multiple years bought out. It's going to flood the UFA market, and all of these guys already have a paycheck coming from their soon to be former teams. Many will take hugely discounted contracts with a new team.

Good point tho I believe Fleury has 2 years left.


You are correct. My mistake. I just know he's been rumored for a while as a buyout candidate.
Last edited by longtimefan on Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby Daniel on Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:46 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:It baffles me that people continue to defend the Hornqvist deal even after Rutherford just traded for Kapanen to improve the top 6.


I see two problems with the deal, neither of which are necessarily the term/money. I think if you’re overpaying a bit their shouldn’t be a no trade clause of any kind. Either add the NTC to a smaller contract or subtract from a larger one. Not overpay AND add NTC.

I think the other problem is that they don’t have a young RW to replace him on the top 2 lines. I don’t care that he’s on the 3rd line, that’s fine, but they need an ELC on the top two lines to balance it. And not Simon.

None of the bad contacts are necessarily bad in and of themselves, but look worse when the roster is taken into consideration the bad contracts look worse. Now Bjugstad is wasting cap space while also adding the requirement to get a 3C, which they have no cap space to get. Unless Blueger is the plan.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby thehockeyguru on Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:56 pm

longtimefan wrote:
As I pointed out above, deals cannot be judged in a vacuum. It really has nothing to do with Kapanen. If the concern is $5.3M on your 3rd line, it's offset by Kapanen's $3.2M in the top 6. You judge the Hornqvist deal as of when it was made, not after a pandemic threw the league finances into chaos. Look at the comparables. I promise you that's what the agents look at. Perhaps they should have let him walk and signed JVR as a replacement.


The concern is the Penguins signed Hornqvist to be a top 6 forward. The majority of casual fans said it was a terrible deal, two years into a 5 year deal and Hornqvist has already been displaced from the top 6.

Saying that we can pay Hornqvist more because we are paying Kapanen less is a joke. The Pens are in a cap crunch and need a 3C as well as a 3RHD. The ability to find good players for those positions is hindered by terrible contracts given out by Rutherford.

I'm so glad that we signed Hornqvist to the length and amount we did so we could make those deep cup runs the last 2 years. Oh wait the team is flawed and has gone 1-9 in their last 10 playoff games because they've been mismanaged.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby pens_CT on Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:09 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
As I pointed out above, deals cannot be judged in a vacuum. It really has nothing to do with Kapanen. If the concern is $5.3M on your 3rd line, it's offset by Kapanen's $3.2M in the top 6. You judge the Hornqvist deal as of when it was made, not after a pandemic threw the league finances into chaos. Look at the comparables. I promise you that's what the agents look at. Perhaps they should have let him walk and signed JVR as a replacement.


The concern is the Penguins signed Hornqvist to be a top 6 forward. The majority of casual fans said it was a terrible deal, two years into a 5 year deal and Hornqvist has already been displaced from the top 6.

Saying that we can pay Hornqvist more because we are paying Kapanen less is a joke. The Pens are in a cap crunch and need a 3C as well as a 3RHD. The ability to find good players for those positions is hindered by terrible contracts given out by Rutherford.

I'm so glad that we signed Hornqvist to the length and amount we did so we could make those deep cup runs the last 2 years. Oh wait the team is flawed and has gone 1-9 in their last 10 playoff games because they've been mismanaged.


This is probably a waste of time typing, but what the hell. Before we claim that everyone in the organization from Rutherford on up has been taking stupid pills for the last three years, I would wait to see what lineup is put out on opening night before judging what they can or can't do to improve the team. Its something called patience which nobody seem to have anymore.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby longtimefan on Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:14 pm

Daniel wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:It baffles me that people continue to defend the Hornqvist deal even after Rutherford just traded for Kapanen to improve the top 6.


I see two problems with the deal, neither of which are necessarily the term/money. I think if you’re overpaying a bit their shouldn’t be a no trade clause of any kind. Either add the NTC to a smaller contract or subtract from a larger one. Not overpay AND add NTC.

I think the other problem is that they don’t have a young RW to replace him on the top 2 lines. I don’t care that he’s on the 3rd line, that’s fine, but they need an ELC on the top two lines to balance it. And not Simon.

None of the bad contacts are necessarily bad in and of themselves, but look worse when the roster is taken into consideration the bad contracts look worse. Now Bjugstad is wasting cap space while also adding the requirement to get a 3C, which they have no cap space to get. Unless Blueger is the plan.


I never believed Hornqvist was being signed to be a top 6 winger for the duration of the contract. At the time he signed it, it was well documented that neither Sid or Geno liked playing with him. It certainly is not a joke using Kappy's hit as an offset. Or, if he proved capable, Poulin's ELC in the top 6. It placates some fans to point it out. I, for one, don't consider cap hits when I put lines together. The only cap hit that matters is the team cap of $81.5M. Where in the lineup they slot, I don't care. So long as they fit on the team.

I'm not certain what you mean by casual fans. Most frequent posters on here cannot be described as casual. True casual fans are oblivious to cap hits. They just watch games. Fans have complained to some degree about every single deal they've made. The question on Marino was what's the point? Camp fodder. The problem with Kessel was the length of his deal. Fans often hate deals based on their lack of knowledge about the return. But fans complain about every deal. The most universally lauded deal on here was for Brassard. Would Hornqvist have received a comparable deal or better on the UFA market? The answer is yes, based on his comparables. Which is the only thing you can use as a comparison. It's also a deal that might be able to be made because of his continued production if you can find someone not scared of his cap hit. Not because it's so high under normal circumstances, but because of the fear the pandemic has caused financially.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby Daniel on Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:27 pm

longtimefan wrote:
Daniel wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:It baffles me that people continue to defend the Hornqvist deal even after Rutherford just traded for Kapanen to improve the top 6.


I see two problems with the deal, neither of which are necessarily the term/money. I think if you’re overpaying a bit their shouldn’t be a no trade clause of any kind. Either add the NTC to a smaller contract or subtract from a larger one. Not overpay AND add NTC.

I think the other problem is that they don’t have a young RW to replace him on the top 2 lines. I don’t care that he’s on the 3rd line, that’s fine, but they need an ELC on the top two lines to balance it. And not Simon.

None of the bad contacts are necessarily bad in and of themselves, but look worse when the roster is taken into consideration the bad contracts look worse. Now Bjugstad is wasting cap space while also adding the requirement to get a 3C, which they have no cap space to get. Unless Blueger is the plan.


I never believed Hornqvist was being signed to be a top 6 winger for the duration of the contract. At the time he signed it, it was well documented that neither Sid or Geno liked playing with him. It certainly is not a joke using Kappy's hit as an offset. Or, if he proved capable, Poulin's ELC in the top 6. It placates some fans to point it out. I, for one, don't consider cap hits when I put lines together. The only cap hit that matters is the team cap of $81.5M. Where in the lineup they slot, I don't care. So long as they fit on the team.

I'm not certain what you mean by casual fans. Most frequent posters on here cannot be described as casual. True casual fans are oblivious to cap hits. They just watch games. Fans have complained to some degree about every single deal they've made. The question on Marino was what's the point? Camp fodder. The problem with Kessel was the length of his deal. Fans often hate deals based on their lack of knowledge about the return. But fans complain about every deal. The most universally lauded deal on here was for Brassard. Would Hornqvist have received a comparable deal or better on the UFA market? The answer is yes, based on his comparables. Which is the only thing you can use as a comparison. It's also a deal that might be able to be made because of his continued production if you can find someone not scared of his cap hit. Not because it's so high under normal circumstances, but because of the fear the pandemic has caused financially.


I also don’t care about line placement and salary, just that they’re under the cap. Problem is they have 3-4 contacts that are hurting the team. At the very least Bjugstad, Hornqvist, Johnson and possibly more. They need to make significant changes to the roster to undo the past 2 seasons but are tinkering.

I know it’s early and I know the contacts we think are immovable can be moved, but it’s hard to think they’ll get rid of a enough cap space to make much change to the roster that has won one playoff series in 3 seasons.

There are too many players that JR won’t move, or can’t move, to make the roster better. The top 2 lines are set, top 2 defense pairing are set. While the 3rd/4th lines and 3rd pairing can help those aren’t usually needle moving positions.

Looking at the current roster, do you see this as a cup winning roster? Without trading Hornqvist or Johnson what moves do you think JR can make to go from 1st round out to Stanley Cup? The Murray trade might get a good return but anything back will count against the $8M or so cap space so the return there has to be either futures or limited.

Seriously interested in your thoughts on where this roster goes and let’s presume no Johnson or Hornqvist being traded (if I say that enough it’ll prove me wrong is a good theory :fist: )
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby thehockeyguru on Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:48 pm

pens_CT wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
As I pointed out above, deals cannot be judged in a vacuum. It really has nothing to do with Kapanen. If the concern is $5.3M on your 3rd line, it's offset by Kapanen's $3.2M in the top 6. You judge the Hornqvist deal as of when it was made, not after a pandemic threw the league finances into chaos. Look at the comparables. I promise you that's what the agents look at. Perhaps they should have let him walk and signed JVR as a replacement.


The concern is the Penguins signed Hornqvist to be a top 6 forward. The majority of casual fans said it was a terrible deal, two years into a 5 year deal and Hornqvist has already been displaced from the top 6.

Saying that we can pay Hornqvist more because we are paying Kapanen less is a joke. The Pens are in a cap crunch and need a 3C as well as a 3RHD. The ability to find good players for those positions is hindered by terrible contracts given out by Rutherford.

I'm so glad that we signed Hornqvist to the length and amount we did so we could make those deep cup runs the last 2 years. Oh wait the team is flawed and has gone 1-9 in their last 10 playoff games because they've been mismanaged.


This is probably a waste of time typing, but what the hell. Before we claim that everyone in the organization from Rutherford on up has been taking stupid pills for the last three years, I would wait to see what lineup is put out on opening night before judging what they can or can't do to improve the team. Its something called patience which nobody seem to have anymore.


I hear you but its the same old stuff the last two years.

They got swept by Isles and everyone was lead to believe Kessel was the problem.

They get handled easily by Montreal and its the same as me old stuff. Real change cant be made to the roster because JJ, Hornqvist and Tanev are unmovable. Factor in that Malkin and Letang have been awful in the post season and this is a stagnant bunch of overpaid declining superstars

I dont see a plan or a willingness to fix this team and its frustrating.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby longtimefan on Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:01 pm

Daniel wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
Daniel wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:It baffles me that people continue to defend the Hornqvist deal even after Rutherford just traded for Kapanen to improve the top 6.


I see two problems with the deal, neither of which are necessarily the term/money. I think if you’re overpaying a bit their shouldn’t be a no trade clause of any kind. Either add the NTC to a smaller contract or subtract from a larger one. Not overpay AND add NTC.

I think the other problem is that they don’t have a young RW to replace him on the top 2 lines. I don’t care that he’s on the 3rd line, that’s fine, but they need an ELC on the top two lines to balance it. And not Simon.

None of the bad contacts are necessarily bad in and of themselves, but look worse when the roster is taken into consideration the bad contracts look worse. Now Bjugstad is wasting cap space while also adding the requirement to get a 3C, which they have no cap space to get. Unless Blueger is the plan.


I never believed Hornqvist was being signed to be a top 6 winger for the duration of the contract. At the time he signed it, it was well documented that neither Sid or Geno liked playing with him. It certainly is not a joke using Kappy's hit as an offset. Or, if he proved capable, Poulin's ELC in the top 6. It placates some fans to point it out. I, for one, don't consider cap hits when I put lines together. The only cap hit that matters is the team cap of $81.5M. Where in the lineup they slot, I don't care. So long as they fit on the team.

I'm not certain what you mean by casual fans. Most frequent posters on here cannot be described as casual. True casual fans are oblivious to cap hits. They just watch games. Fans have complained to some degree about every single deal they've made. The question on Marino was what's the point? Camp fodder. The problem with Kessel was the length of his deal. Fans often hate deals based on their lack of knowledge about the return. But fans complain about every deal. The most universally lauded deal on here was for Brassard. Would Hornqvist have received a comparable deal or better on the UFA market? The answer is yes, based on his comparables. Which is the only thing you can use as a comparison. It's also a deal that might be able to be made because of his continued production if you can find someone not scared of his cap hit. Not because it's so high under normal circumstances, but because of the fear the pandemic has caused financially.


I also don’t care about line placement and salary, just that they’re under the cap. Problem is they have 3-4 contacts that are hurting the team. At the very least Bjugstad, Hornqvist, Johnson and possibly more. They need to make significant changes to the roster to undo the past 2 seasons but are tinkering.

I know it’s early and I know the contacts we think are immovable can be moved, but it’s hard to think they’ll get rid of a enough cap space to make much change to the roster that has won one playoff series in 3 seasons.

There are too many players that JR won’t move, or can’t move, to make the roster better. The top 2 lines are set, top 2 defense pairing are set. While the 3rd/4th lines and 3rd pairing can help those aren’t usually needle moving positions.

Looking at the current roster, do you see this as a cup winning roster? Without trading Hornqvist or Johnson what moves do you think JR can make to go from 1st round out to Stanley Cup? The Murray trade might get a good return but anything back will count against the $8M or so cap space so the return there has to be either futures or limited.

Seriously interested in your thoughts on where this roster goes and let’s presume no Johnson or Hornqvist being traded (if I say that enough it’ll prove me wrong is a good theory :fist: )


I was one of those who believed they could move Bjugstad, JJ, and Horny without retaining salary. That's been proven wrong, and I've done a great deal of reading about the league's financial situation. With over 40% of the league essentially in cap hell, and another percentage implementing much lower self imposed caps, I understand it may not be that easy. Or even possible.

If nobody will budge, you'd have to make a drastic move. Either moving McCann's rights with futures as the return, or burying JJ in the minors. I'd have to do the math to see if that would work, but it's what you can do without being able to bring in significant salary.
If that's the case, you're going to have to rely on your system. Which may well work out. We didn't know much about all the WBS guys in 2016, and the Caps replenished their roster in 2017-18 with low budget UFA's and players from their system. They won the cup when everyone predicted their demise.

There's no need to regurgitate the assumed top 6 or top 4 D. We all have those memorized. You'd have to cobble the rest of the roster together. If you keep McCann he slides to the 3LW. Blueger gets a full shot at 3C. If McCann has to be moved, you move Tanev to the 3LW or, if he's ready, Poulin. Horny would be the 3RW. Depending on how it plays out, Lafferty becomes your 4C. Angello is an option for 4RW if Tanev is moved to the 3rd line, or to LW to replace ZAR while he's on IR. Another option mentioned by JR and Vellucci is Sam Miletic. Defensively, if JJ is sent down, POJ and Riikola battle for the 3LD, and Ruhwedel becomes your 3RD.

How they put them together is not important initially. You need to find who fits best where. You may be able to clear enough space to bring in one or two bargain basement UFA's. Or bring back Simon. It's not sexy, and fans will have a fit. But you may have to do what's necessary this season. It's also important to realize the start of the season is not the ultimate timeline. The deadline is. It's a lot better position than a number of teams in the league. It's going to be an insane off-season. And the primary goal is going to be financial league wide.

So you fill the bottom part of the roster with these options: McCann maybe, Tanev, Blueger, Hornqvist, Angello, Lafferty, Poulin, O'Conner, Miletic, maybe Simon or a couple of bargain basement UFA's.

Defense is tougher because you don't have the bodies. But POJ, Riikola, and Ruhwedel, and maybe JJ if they have space. Again, a bargain basement UFA is a possibility.

Now let's hope it doesn't come to that. :D
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby Steve Dave on Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:12 pm

longtimefan wrote:
Daniel wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
Daniel wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:It baffles me that people continue to defend the Hornqvist deal even after Rutherford just traded for Kapanen to improve the top 6.


I see two problems with the deal, neither of which are necessarily the term/money. I think if you’re overpaying a bit their shouldn’t be a no trade clause of any kind. Either add the NTC to a smaller contract or subtract from a larger one. Not overpay AND add NTC.

I think the other problem is that they don’t have a young RW to replace him on the top 2 lines. I don’t care that he’s on the 3rd line, that’s fine, but they need an ELC on the top two lines to balance it. And not Simon.

None of the bad contacts are necessarily bad in and of themselves, but look worse when the roster is taken into consideration the bad contracts look worse. Now Bjugstad is wasting cap space while also adding the requirement to get a 3C, which they have no cap space to get. Unless Blueger is the plan.


I never believed Hornqvist was being signed to be a top 6 winger for the duration of the contract. At the time he signed it, it was well documented that neither Sid or Geno liked playing with him. It certainly is not a joke using Kappy's hit as an offset. Or, if he proved capable, Poulin's ELC in the top 6. It placates some fans to point it out. I, for one, don't consider cap hits when I put lines together. The only cap hit that matters is the team cap of $81.5M. Where in the lineup they slot, I don't care. So long as they fit on the team.

I'm not certain what you mean by casual fans. Most frequent posters on here cannot be described as casual. True casual fans are oblivious to cap hits. They just watch games. Fans have complained to some degree about every single deal they've made. The question on Marino was what's the point? Camp fodder. The problem with Kessel was the length of his deal. Fans often hate deals based on their lack of knowledge about the return. But fans complain about every deal. The most universally lauded deal on here was for Brassard. Would Hornqvist have received a comparable deal or better on the UFA market? The answer is yes, based on his comparables. Which is the only thing you can use as a comparison. It's also a deal that might be able to be made because of his continued production if you can find someone not scared of his cap hit. Not because it's so high under normal circumstances, but because of the fear the pandemic has caused financially.


I also don’t care about line placement and salary, just that they’re under the cap. Problem is they have 3-4 contacts that are hurting the team. At the very least Bjugstad, Hornqvist, Johnson and possibly more. They need to make significant changes to the roster to undo the past 2 seasons but are tinkering.

I know it’s early and I know the contacts we think are immovable can be moved, but it’s hard to think they’ll get rid of a enough cap space to make much change to the roster that has won one playoff series in 3 seasons.

There are too many players that JR won’t move, or can’t move, to make the roster better. The top 2 lines are set, top 2 defense pairing are set. While the 3rd/4th lines and 3rd pairing can help those aren’t usually needle moving positions.

Looking at the current roster, do you see this as a cup winning roster? Without trading Hornqvist or Johnson what moves do you think JR can make to go from 1st round out to Stanley Cup? The Murray trade might get a good return but anything back will count against the $8M or so cap space so the return there has to be either futures or limited.

Seriously interested in your thoughts on where this roster goes and let’s presume no Johnson or Hornqvist being traded (if I say that enough it’ll prove me wrong is a good theory :fist: )


I was one of those who believed they could move Bjugstad, JJ, and Horny without retaining salary. That's been proven wrong, and I've done a great deal of reading about the league's financial situation. With over 40% of the league essentially in cap hell, and another percentage implementing much lower self imposed caps, I understand it may not be that easy. Or even possible.

If nobody will budge, you'd have to make a drastic move. Either moving McCann's rights with futures as the return, or burying JJ in the minors. I'd have to do the math to see if that would work, but it's what you can do without being able to bring in significant salary.
If that's the case, you're going to have to rely on your system. Which may well work out. We didn't know much about all the WBS guys in 2016, and the Caps replenished their roster in 2017-18 with low budget UFA's and players from their system. They won the cup when everyone predicted their demise.

There's no need to regurgitate the assumed top 6 or top 4 D. We all have those memorized. You'd have to cobble the rest of the roster together. If you keep McCann he slides to the 3LW. Blueger gets a full shot at 3C. If McCann has to be moved, you move Tanev to the 3LW or, if he's ready, Poulin. Horny would be the 3RW. Depending on how it plays out, Lafferty becomes your 4C. Angello is an option for 4RW if Tanev is moved to the 3rd line, or to LW to replace ZAR while he's on IR. Another option mentioned by JR and Vellucci is Sam Miletic. Defensively, if JJ is sent down, POJ and Riikola battle for the 3LD, and Ruhwedel becomes your 3RD.

How they put them together is not important initially. You need to find who fits best where. You may be able to clear enough space to bring in one or two bargain basement UFA's. Or bring back Simon. It's not sexy, and fans will have a fit. But you may have to do what's necessary this season. It's also important to realize the start of the season is not the ultimate timeline. The deadline is. It's a lot better position than a number of teams in the league. It's going to be an insane off-season. And the primary goal is going to be financial league wide.

So you fill the bottom part of the roster with these options: McCann maybe, Tanev, Blueger, Hornqvist, Angello, Lafferty, Poulin, O'Conner, Miletic, maybe Simon or a couple of bargain basement UFA's.

Defense is tougher because you don't have the bodies. But POJ, Riikola, and Ruhwedel, and maybe JJ if they have space. Again, a bargain basement UFA is a possibility.

Now let's hope it doesn't come to that. :D

Sending Johnson to the AHL only saves $1.075 in cap space. He has to be replaced by a player as well. If Joseph ($.863) takes his place, that only saves $.212 against the cap.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby Daniel on Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:36 pm

longtimefan wrote:
Daniel wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
Daniel wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:It baffles me that people continue to defend the Hornqvist deal even after Rutherford just traded for Kapanen to improve the top 6.


I see two problems with the deal, neither of which are necessarily the term/money. I think if you’re overpaying a bit their shouldn’t be a no trade clause of any kind. Either add the NTC to a smaller contract or subtract from a larger one. Not overpay AND add NTC.

I think the other problem is that they don’t have a young RW to replace him on the top 2 lines. I don’t care that he’s on the 3rd line, that’s fine, but they need an ELC on the top two lines to balance it. And not Simon.

None of the bad contacts are necessarily bad in and of themselves, but look worse when the roster is taken into consideration the bad contracts look worse. Now Bjugstad is wasting cap space while also adding the requirement to get a 3C, which they have no cap space to get. Unless Blueger is the plan.


I never believed Hornqvist was being signed to be a top 6 winger for the duration of the contract. At the time he signed it, it was well documented that neither Sid or Geno liked playing with him. It certainly is not a joke using Kappy's hit as an offset. Or, if he proved capable, Poulin's ELC in the top 6. It placates some fans to point it out. I, for one, don't consider cap hits when I put lines together. The only cap hit that matters is the team cap of $81.5M. Where in the lineup they slot, I don't care. So long as they fit on the team.

I'm not certain what you mean by casual fans. Most frequent posters on here cannot be described as casual. True casual fans are oblivious to cap hits. They just watch games. Fans have complained to some degree about every single deal they've made. The question on Marino was what's the point? Camp fodder. The problem with Kessel was the length of his deal. Fans often hate deals based on their lack of knowledge about the return. But fans complain about every deal. The most universally lauded deal on here was for Brassard. Would Hornqvist have received a comparable deal or better on the UFA market? The answer is yes, based on his comparables. Which is the only thing you can use as a comparison. It's also a deal that might be able to be made because of his continued production if you can find someone not scared of his cap hit. Not because it's so high under normal circumstances, but because of the fear the pandemic has caused financially.


I also don’t care about line placement and salary, just that they’re under the cap. Problem is they have 3-4 contacts that are hurting the team. At the very least Bjugstad, Hornqvist, Johnson and possibly more. They need to make significant changes to the roster to undo the past 2 seasons but are tinkering.

I know it’s early and I know the contacts we think are immovable can be moved, but it’s hard to think they’ll get rid of a enough cap space to make much change to the roster that has won one playoff series in 3 seasons.

There are too many players that JR won’t move, or can’t move, to make the roster better. The top 2 lines are set, top 2 defense pairing are set. While the 3rd/4th lines and 3rd pairing can help those aren’t usually needle moving positions.

Looking at the current roster, do you see this as a cup winning roster? Without trading Hornqvist or Johnson what moves do you think JR can make to go from 1st round out to Stanley Cup? The Murray trade might get a good return but anything back will count against the $8M or so cap space so the return there has to be either futures or limited.

Seriously interested in your thoughts on where this roster goes and let’s presume no Johnson or Hornqvist being traded (if I say that enough it’ll prove me wrong is a good theory :fist: )


I was one of those who believed they could move Bjugstad, JJ, and Horny without retaining salary. That's been proven wrong, and I've done a great deal of reading about the league's financial situation. With over 40% of the league essentially in cap hell, and another percentage implementing much lower self imposed caps, I understand it may not be that easy. Or even possible.

If nobody will budge, you'd have to make a drastic move. Either moving McCann's rights with futures as the return, or burying JJ in the minors. I'd have to do the math to see if that would work, but it's what you can do without being able to bring in significant salary.
If that's the case, you're going to have to rely on your system. Which may well work out. We didn't know much about all the WBS guys in 2016, and the Caps replenished their roster in 2017-18 with low budget UFA's and players from their system. They won the cup when everyone predicted their demise.

There's no need to regurgitate the assumed top 6 or top 4 D. We all have those memorized. You'd have to cobble the rest of the roster together. If you keep McCann he slides to the 3LW. Blueger gets a full shot at 3C. If McCann has to be moved, you move Tanev to the 3LW or, if he's ready, Poulin. Horny would be the 3RW. Depending on how it plays out, Lafferty becomes your 4C. Angello is an option for 4RW if Tanev is moved to the 3rd line, or to LW to replace ZAR while he's on IR. Another option mentioned by JR and Vellucci is Sam Miletic. Defensively, if JJ is sent down, POJ and Riikola battle for the 3LD, and Ruhwedel becomes your 3RD.

How they put them together is not important initially. You need to find who fits best where. You may be able to clear enough space to bring in one or two bargain basement UFA's. Or bring back Simon. It's not sexy, and fans will have a fit. But you may have to do what's necessary this season. It's also important to realize the start of the season is not the ultimate timeline. The deadline is. It's a lot better position than a number of teams in the league. It's going to be an insane off-season. And the primary goal is going to be financial league wide.

So you fill the bottom part of the roster with these options: McCann maybe, Tanev, Blueger, Hornqvist, Angello, Lafferty, Poulin, O'Conner, Miletic, maybe Simon or a couple of bargain basement UFA's.

Defense is tougher because you don't have the bodies. But POJ, Riikola, and Ruhwedel, and maybe JJ if they have space. Again, a bargain basement UFA is a possibility.

Now let's hope it doesn't come to that. :D


I don't think Kapanen and a new bottom 6 are the answer, hope I'm wrong but past sometimes dictates the future. To me that's tinkering an underachieving roster. People don't want to hear trade Rust, Dumoulin, Zucker, as well a Hornqvist and Johnson but that would certainly shake up the team. Dumoulin and Rust are closing on 30 and, while good players, are two big salaries that can be replaced with younger players as well as get a good return.

We can discuss the roster all we want but I think tinkering means early exit and JR needs to take some risks. If Legare and Poulin are NHL ready, why not Poulin-Sid- Kapanen and Guentzel-Malkin-Legare plus about $8M in cap space? Can't be any worse than the last 3 playoff runs right?
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby longtimefan on Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:24 pm

Daniel wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
Daniel wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
Daniel wrote:I see two problems with the deal, neither of which are necessarily the term/money. I think if you’re overpaying a bit their shouldn’t be a no trade clause of any kind. Either add the NTC to a smaller contract or subtract from a larger one. Not overpay AND add NTC.

I think the other problem is that they don’t have a young RW to replace him on the top 2 lines. I don’t care that he’s on the 3rd line, that’s fine, but they need an ELC on the top two lines to balance it. And not Simon.

None of the bad contacts are necessarily bad in and of themselves, but look worse when the roster is taken into consideration the bad contracts look worse. Now Bjugstad is wasting cap space while also adding the requirement to get a 3C, which they have no cap space to get. Unless Blueger is the plan.


I never believed Hornqvist was being signed to be a top 6 winger for the duration of the contract. At the time he signed it, it was well documented that neither Sid or Geno liked playing with him. It certainly is not a joke using Kappy's hit as an offset. Or, if he proved capable, Poulin's ELC in the top 6. It placates some fans to point it out. I, for one, don't consider cap hits when I put lines together. The only cap hit that matters is the team cap of $81.5M. Where in the lineup they slot, I don't care. So long as they fit on the team.

I'm not certain what you mean by casual fans. Most frequent posters on here cannot be described as casual. True casual fans are oblivious to cap hits. They just watch games. Fans have complained to some degree about every single deal they've made. The question on Marino was what's the point? Camp fodder. The problem with Kessel was the length of his deal. Fans often hate deals based on their lack of knowledge about the return. But fans complain about every deal. The most universally lauded deal on here was for Brassard. Would Hornqvist have received a comparable deal or better on the UFA market? The answer is yes, based on his comparables. Which is the only thing you can use as a comparison. It's also a deal that might be able to be made because of his continued production if you can find someone not scared of his cap hit. Not because it's so high under normal circumstances, but because of the fear the pandemic has caused financially.


I also don’t care about line placement and salary, just that they’re under the cap. Problem is they have 3-4 contacts that are hurting the team. At the very least Bjugstad, Hornqvist, Johnson and possibly more. They need to make significant changes to the roster to undo the past 2 seasons but are tinkering.

I know it’s early and I know the contacts we think are immovable can be moved, but it’s hard to think they’ll get rid of a enough cap space to make much change to the roster that has won one playoff series in 3 seasons.

There are too many players that JR won’t move, or can’t move, to make the roster better. The top 2 lines are set, top 2 defense pairing are set. While the 3rd/4th lines and 3rd pairing can help those aren’t usually needle moving positions.

Looking at the current roster, do you see this as a cup winning roster? Without trading Hornqvist or Johnson what moves do you think JR can make to go from 1st round out to Stanley Cup? The Murray trade might get a good return but anything back will count against the $8M or so cap space so the return there has to be either futures or limited.

Seriously interested in your thoughts on where this roster goes and let’s presume no Johnson or Hornqvist being traded (if I say that enough it’ll prove me wrong is a good theory :fist: )


I was one of those who believed they could move Bjugstad, JJ, and Horny without retaining salary. That's been proven wrong, and I've done a great deal of reading about the league's financial situation. With over 40% of the league essentially in cap hell, and another percentage implementing much lower self imposed caps, I understand it may not be that easy. Or even possible.

If nobody will budge, you'd have to make a drastic move. Either moving McCann's rights with futures as the return, or burying JJ in the minors. I'd have to do the math to see if that would work, but it's what you can do without being able to bring in significant salary.
If that's the case, you're going to have to rely on your system. Which may well work out. We didn't know much about all the WBS guys in 2016, and the Caps replenished their roster in 2017-18 with low budget UFA's and players from their system. They won the cup when everyone predicted their demise.

There's no need to regurgitate the assumed top 6 or top 4 D. We all have those memorized. You'd have to cobble the rest of the roster together. If you keep McCann he slides to the 3LW. Blueger gets a full shot at 3C. If McCann has to be moved, you move Tanev to the 3LW or, if he's ready, Poulin. Horny would be the 3RW. Depending on how it plays out, Lafferty becomes your 4C. Angello is an option for 4RW if Tanev is moved to the 3rd line, or to LW to replace ZAR while he's on IR. Another option mentioned by JR and Vellucci is Sam Miletic. Defensively, if JJ is sent down, POJ and Riikola battle for the 3LD, and Ruhwedel becomes your 3RD.

How they put them together is not important initially. You need to find who fits best where. You may be able to clear enough space to bring in one or two bargain basement UFA's. Or bring back Simon. It's not sexy, and fans will have a fit. But you may have to do what's necessary this season. It's also important to realize the start of the season is not the ultimate timeline. The deadline is. It's a lot better position than a number of teams in the league. It's going to be an insane off-season. And the primary goal is going to be financial league wide.

So you fill the bottom part of the roster with these options: McCann maybe, Tanev, Blueger, Hornqvist, Angello, Lafferty, Poulin, O'Conner, Miletic, maybe Simon or a couple of bargain basement UFA's.

Defense is tougher because you don't have the bodies. But POJ, Riikola, and Ruhwedel, and maybe JJ if they have space. Again, a bargain basement UFA is a possibility.

Now let's hope it doesn't come to that. :D


I don't think Kapanen and a new bottom 6 are the answer, hope I'm wrong but past sometimes dictates the future. To me that's tinkering an underachieving roster. People don't want to hear trade Rust, Dumoulin, Zucker, as well a Hornqvist and Johnson but that would certainly shake up the team. Dumoulin and Rust are closing on 30 and, while good players, are two big salaries that can be replaced with younger players as well as get a good return.

We can discuss the roster all we want but I think tinkering means early exit and JR needs to take some risks. If Legare and Poulin are NHL ready, why not Poulin-Sid- Kapanen and Guentzel-Malkin-Legare plus about $8M in cap space? Can't be any worse than the last 3 playoff runs right?


I don't think so either. Just answering the question as I understood it. It may be your only option. The things I've learned the last few days are scary. Coaches having their pay cut, front office personnel either furloughed or taking pay cuts. The more I read, the more I think it's going to be really tough for anybody to move out salary. It's why I'm getting skewered in another thread for suggesting the most important return for Murray may be cap space. I'm fine with Poulin and Legare if they are ready. But where can you find $8M in cap space. The bottom line is a lot of the change has to come internally.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby cojac on Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:44 pm

NHL and NHLPA need to agree on One compliance buyout per team.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby DelPen on Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:01 pm

[quote="cojac"]NHL and NHLPA need to agree on One compliance buyout per team.[/quote]
Agree. Especially if Vegas just extended Lehner beuae
He pulled a Murray and chocked and couldn’t catch a puck to keep his team in it.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby Daniel on Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:55 pm

longtimefan wrote:
Daniel wrote:
longtimefan wrote:I was one of those who believed they could move Bjugstad, JJ, and Horny without retaining salary. That's been proven wrong, and I've done a great deal of reading about the league's financial situation. With over 40% of the league essentially in cap hell, and another percentage implementing much lower self imposed caps, I understand it may not be that easy. Or even possible.

If nobody will budge, you'd have to make a drastic move. Either moving McCann's rights with futures as the return, or burying JJ in the minors. I'd have to do the math to see if that would work, but it's what you can do without being able to bring in significant salary.
If that's the case, you're going to have to rely on your system. Which may well work out. We didn't know much about all the WBS guys in 2016, and the Caps replenished their roster in 2017-18 with low budget UFA's and players from their system. They won the cup when everyone predicted their demise.

There's no need to regurgitate the assumed top 6 or top 4 D. We all have those memorized. You'd have to cobble the rest of the roster together. If you keep McCann he slides to the 3LW. Blueger gets a full shot at 3C. If McCann has to be moved, you move Tanev to the 3LW or, if he's ready, Poulin. Horny would be the 3RW. Depending on how it plays out, Lafferty becomes your 4C. Angello is an option for 4RW if Tanev is moved to the 3rd line, or to LW to replace ZAR while he's on IR. Another option mentioned by JR and Vellucci is Sam Miletic. Defensively, if JJ is sent down, POJ and Riikola battle for the 3LD, and Ruhwedel becomes your 3RD.

How they put them together is not important initially. You need to find who fits best where. You may be able to clear enough space to bring in one or two bargain basement UFA's. Or bring back Simon. It's not sexy, and fans will have a fit. But you may have to do what's necessary this season. It's also important to realize the start of the season is not the ultimate timeline. The deadline is. It's a lot better position than a number of teams in the league. It's going to be an insane off-season. And the primary goal is going to be financial league wide.

So you fill the bottom part of the roster with these options: McCann maybe, Tanev, Blueger, Hornqvist, Angello, Lafferty, Poulin, O'Conner, Miletic, maybe Simon or a couple of bargain basement UFA's.

Defense is tougher because you don't have the bodies. But POJ, Riikola, and Ruhwedel, and maybe JJ if they have space. Again, a bargain basement UFA is a possibility.

Now let's hope it doesn't come to that. :D


I don't think Kapanen and a new bottom 6 are the answer, hope I'm wrong but past sometimes dictates the future. To me that's tinkering an underachieving roster. People don't want to hear trade Rust, Dumoulin, Zucker, as well a Hornqvist and Johnson but that would certainly shake up the team. Dumoulin and Rust are closing on 30 and, while good players, are two big salaries that can be replaced with younger players as well as get a good return.

We can discuss the roster all we want but I think tinkering means early exit and JR needs to take some risks. If Legare and Poulin are NHL ready, why not Poulin-Sid- Kapanen and Guentzel-Malkin-Legare plus about $8M in cap space? Can't be any worse than the last 3 playoff runs right?


I don't think so either. Just answering the question as I understood it. It may be your only option. The things I've learned the last few days are scary. Coaches having their pay cut, front office personnel either furloughed or taking pay cuts. The more I read, the more I think it's going to be really tough for anybody to move out salary. It's why I'm getting skewered in another thread for suggesting the most important return for Murray may be cap space. I'm fine with Poulin and Legare if they are ready. But where can you find $8M in cap space. The bottom line is a lot of the change has to come internally.


I wanted to gauge your thoughts and I think were in agreement that really either not much will change or JR takes some risks. My comment on the $8M in cap space was subtracting Zucker and Rust for picks/prospects with Legare/Poulin replacing them. Actually about $7M now that I look at the numbers ($9M out about $2M for the rookies).

I almost think Murray can't bring back anything without other players going out. First round pick and change of scenery prospect might be the best thing for the Penguins at this point unless the usual suspects get traded. They have a small amount of cap space that doesn't include Murray so anything coming in gives the team a greater challenge.
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Re: Where does the roster go from here?

Postby Wyopen on Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:57 am

If Jake Allen can fetch a third and seventh round pick, shouldn’t Murray bring a better return? After reading all these posts, everyone seems to feel we’ll get nothing of value for him or we must include other players. Also doesn’t JR have a “deal on the table” for Murray, or is that talk?
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