Hornqvist Traded to Panthers for Matheson

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Re: Hornqvist Traded to Panthers for Matheson

Postby GSdrums87 on Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:11 pm

murphydump55 wrote:
GSdrums87 wrote:
largegarlic wrote:I've come around a bit on the trade after hearing more in-depth scouting reports of Matheson. The initial ones were "OMG! Worst contract in the league! Healthy scratch in the playoffs!" And I was never on board with the idea of dumping Hornqvist for whatever we could get. He was still a useful player, even if overpaid at this point, and I would have preferred keeping him over adding a useless player with an equally bad contract.

It seems, though, like Rutherford is taking a calculated risk that he could be a Niskanen-like reclamation project. I still would have preferred a reclamation project at RD or 3C, but if Matheson can become Niskanen 2.0, and Johnson is moved to clear cap space and the log jam at LD, this will end up a good trade. Two big "ifs" there, of course.

Agreed. My stance is, if he can play the way we were hoping Schultz could, its a big win.

If Sullivan pulls his head out of his ass and puts Matheson on the top unit instead of Letang, I bet the numbers go up.


Jesus. They aren’t in the same hemisphere.

From healthy scratch on a bad team to 1st pairing D?

Top unit, i.e. top powerplay unit.
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Re: Hornqvist Traded to Panthers for Matheson

Postby Ericf on Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:58 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Ericf wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
BleuLineLady wrote:Some people will definitely disagree with this, but if Rutherford does what it seems he's trying to do, I think he's on the right track. Bring in more experienced youth. Guys in their early/mid twenties who have experience and are entering their primes and who havent won anything yet.

More changes are coming and likely needed, but its probably the only formula that could result in success and avoiding stagnation. By mid season, it could be close to a completely different roster than what we saw 2 years ago. Instead of accepting middling results, he's trying to do a full rebuild on the fly.

Rutherford looks at players, contracts and picks in an unconventional way but I think the right way.

-Proven players who have futures still are better than 1st round picks that are exciting but are riskier and require more time.
-Contract length matters less than what people think. He believes he has the ability and will to trade almost anyone short of a couple exceptions.
-Some players who have won get comfortable and need to move on despite it hurting. I wish this lesson was learned faster after the 09 season. It took 5 years for them to realize the team was arrogant and too comfortable before significant changes were made.

Lets see what Rutherford does from here, but you have to give credit for him never hesitating to making big moves. It would be far far worse if we had a gm just letting the team stagnate hoping stability would bring success.

I've taught myself to have patience. Wait at least 48 hours after any deal to have a good, level headed feedback. I jumped off the GMJR bandwagon a week or so ago. I've jumped back on, but, I'm still standing on the edge with one foot off.

--Kapanen>>Simon on line 1
--Matheson>>Johnson on line 3. Contract is an issue, but, if Matheson regains his form, Matheson>>Pettersson on the 2nd pair, and his contract is fine for 2nd pairing
--Sceviour is a push. He's not bad. He's not overly expensive. His ability to play all 3 positions is a plus.
--GMJR dumped Bjugstad and Hornqvist contracts.

Main items left for GMJR
1) Sign RFAs
2) Trade Murray
3) Trade Johnson
4) Maybe add one more UFA forward for cheap

I think #3 impacts any potential Murray return. I'd rather get a good return and keep Johnson than get a poor return. Penguins can survive without moving Johnson and still sign Jarry, Lafferty, and Angello or Simon.


I don’t think they’ll be able to trade JJ, even with some retention, unless they offer up a significant asset, and I think JR knows that. Given that situation, they have a better solution than keeping him: buy him out. His buy out is cheap and I don’t understand why they don’t do it. It costs them about $1.1 mil for the next three years and then $916k after that. It’s like paying a 14th forward to be on the roster. They save $2.1 mil each of the next two years, which is Rutherford’s professed window.

It's 1.1M for 2 years, then 1.9M for a year, then 916K for 3 years. You turn 3 years of contract into 6. I'd rather just keep him as a 7th/8th, and send him to the AHL if you need an extra 1M in cap space at any point.
If GMJR could trade JJ with Simon's rights, without retention, or if he could give up a prospect like a Bellerive type go for it. But we can't afford to give up picks with JJ just to move him, and, I don't know what the market is for Murray but, my gut says Murray on his own might get you a 2nd and a B-level prospect, and Murray with Johnson is maybe a 3rd or just a B/C level prospect. I'd rather get the better return.


Yeah, it’s going to cost more than the 2nd Detroit got for Staal to unload JJ...Murray is going to be hard enough to get a good return because he’s looking for a substantial pay raise on a long term deal...if they can’t trade JJ for something palatable, then just buy him out. It s a cost effective buy out. There’s 13 years of film on him, two in a Pens uniforms, that show he hurts the team a lot every time he’s out on the ice. Just cut bait.
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Re: Hornqvist Traded to Panthers for Matheson

Postby BlackNGold4Life on Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:34 pm

Ericf wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Ericf wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
BleuLineLady wrote:Some people will definitely disagree with this, but if Rutherford does what it seems he's trying to do, I think he's on the right track. Bring in more experienced youth. Guys in their early/mid twenties who have experience and are entering their primes and who havent won anything yet.

More changes are coming and likely needed, but its probably the only formula that could result in success and avoiding stagnation. By mid season, it could be close to a completely different roster than what we saw 2 years ago. Instead of accepting middling results, he's trying to do a full rebuild on the fly.

Rutherford looks at players, contracts and picks in an unconventional way but I think the right way.

-Proven players who have futures still are better than 1st round picks that are exciting but are riskier and require more time.
-Contract length matters less than what people think. He believes he has the ability and will to trade almost anyone short of a couple exceptions.
-Some players who have won get comfortable and need to move on despite it hurting. I wish this lesson was learned faster after the 09 season. It took 5 years for them to realize the team was arrogant and too comfortable before significant changes were made.

Lets see what Rutherford does from here, but you have to give credit for him never hesitating to making big moves. It would be far far worse if we had a gm just letting the team stagnate hoping stability would bring success.

I've taught myself to have patience. Wait at least 48 hours after any deal to have a good, level headed feedback. I jumped off the GMJR bandwagon a week or so ago. I've jumped back on, but, I'm still standing on the edge with one foot off.

--Kapanen>>Simon on line 1
--Matheson>>Johnson on line 3. Contract is an issue, but, if Matheson regains his form, Matheson>>Pettersson on the 2nd pair, and his contract is fine for 2nd pairing
--Sceviour is a push. He's not bad. He's not overly expensive. His ability to play all 3 positions is a plus.
--GMJR dumped Bjugstad and Hornqvist contracts.

Main items left for GMJR
1) Sign RFAs
2) Trade Murray
3) Trade Johnson
4) Maybe add one more UFA forward for cheap

I think #3 impacts any potential Murray return. I'd rather get a good return and keep Johnson than get a poor return. Penguins can survive without moving Johnson and still sign Jarry, Lafferty, and Angello or Simon.


I don’t think they’ll be able to trade JJ, even with some retention, unless they offer up a significant asset, and I think JR knows that. Given that situation, they have a better solution than keeping him: buy him out. His buy out is cheap and I don’t understand why they don’t do it. It costs them about $1.1 mil for the next three years and then $916k after that. It’s like paying a 14th forward to be on the roster. They save $2.1 mil each of the next two years, which is Rutherford’s professed window.

It's 1.1M for 2 years, then 1.9M for a year, then 916K for 3 years. You turn 3 years of contract into 6. I'd rather just keep him as a 7th/8th, and send him to the AHL if you need an extra 1M in cap space at any point.
If GMJR could trade JJ with Simon's rights, without retention, or if he could give up a prospect like a Bellerive type go for it. But we can't afford to give up picks with JJ just to move him, and, I don't know what the market is for Murray but, my gut says Murray on his own might get you a 2nd and a B-level prospect, and Murray with Johnson is maybe a 3rd or just a B/C level prospect. I'd rather get the better return.


Yeah, it’s going to cost more than the 2nd Detroit got for Staal to unload JJ...Murray is going to be hard enough to get a good return because he’s looking for a substantial pay raise on a long term deal...if they can’t trade JJ for something palatable, then just buy him out. It s a cost effective buy out. There’s 13 years of film on him, two in a Pens uniforms, that show he hurts the team a lot every time he’s out on the ice. Just cut bait.


I think we try and move on from JJ, even if it diminishes a return for murray or an asset is used. The cap is tight and very dollar counts in next 2 seasons. He played decently for stretches when playing on the left side. On the right side he was a disaster. And he’s going to have to fight for that spot now? We can’t have him on the Left where he’s best and the right? If the Murray deal goes to a second and we move that second with JJ and maybe get a 3rd or 4th for a sign and trade of Simon.

I’d look to do a few things.

See if JJ can be dealt with a 3rd and a B level prospect.
Trade Simon for a 3rd or 4th

Deal Murray for a 3C like Tierney and sign him for 3M
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Re: Hornqvist Traded to Panthers for Matheson

Postby Hatrick on Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:43 pm

BleuLineLady wrote:Some people will definitely disagree with this, but if Rutherford does what it seems he's trying to do, I think he's on the right track. Bring in more experienced youth. Guys in their early/mid twenties who have experience and are entering their primes and who havent won anything yet.

More changes are coming and likely needed, but its probably the only formula that could result in success and avoiding stagnation. By mid season, it could be close to a completely different roster than what we saw 2 years ago. Instead of accepting middling results, he's trying to do a full rebuild on the fly.

Rutherford looks at players, contracts and picks in an unconventional way but I think the right way.

-Proven players who have futures still are better than 1st round picks that are exciting but are riskier and require more time.
-Contract length matters less than what people think. He believes he has the ability and will to trade almost anyone short of a couple exceptions.
-Some players who have won get comfortable and need to move on despite it hurting. I wish this lesson was learned faster after the 09 season. It took 5 years for them to realize the team was arrogant and too comfortable before significant changes were made.

Lets see what Rutherford does from here, but you have to give credit for him never hesitating to making big moves. It would be far far worse if we had a gm just letting the team stagnate hoping stability would bring success.

I do give him credit for when he wants something changed he makes it happen, but I couldn't disagree with the "would be far far worse if we had a gm who hoped stability would bring success" part. The key is having a balance of making POSITIVE changes. Change for the sake of change sake isn't a good thing. Also I don't think anybody would put Horny anywhere near the "get comfortable and need to move on" category. His problem was never a lack of fire, it was him getting beaten to a pulp and not being able to remain on the ice. When healthy he was still a productive player and always played with heart.

I do not mind Rutherford acquiring guys with long terms, I actually prefer too much term over too much aav since term you can worry about later and the team wont be good enough for that to matter anyway(plus the cap goes up, usually).

I do understand wanting young current NHL players over more long risky/longer payout draft picks, I do not mind trading all our draft picks (AS LONG AS WE GET VALUE BACK)

I do agree it will be a much different team, and because of that whether it sinks or swims will be all on GMJR. If it sinks and they don't make it past the first round he should be fired on the spot IMO. If they make a deep run he will(and should) get most of the credit.
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Re: Hornqvist Traded to Panthers for Matheson

Postby longtimefan on Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:38 am

FLPensFan wrote:
BigMcK wrote:I would think that with a trade all terms of a contract follow the player? With that, if your contract has dollars tied to performance, and you go from a contender to a pretender, that also impacts direct earnings. Score 30 goals, earn $. Score 40 goals, earn more $$$.

Makes one wonder if a older player would accept a performance incentive based contract, or tend to look at a wage guarantee?

Also, do performance bonuses count against the salary cap?

Hornqvist has no performance bonuses in his contract. Other than ELCs, performance bonuses are pretty rare, because I believe they are capped at a max of around 2.5M per year. And yes, they do count against the cap when players earn those bonuses.


When the Wild signed Cullen on 2017. they gave him $700K in performance bonuses in addition to his $1M AAV. JR said at that time he didn't want to give performance bonuses because they carry over to the next season's cap.
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Re: Hornqvist Traded to Panthers for Matheson

Postby Wyopen on Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:32 am

Can Johnson be sent to WBS? If so what’s the cost against the cap?
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Re: Hornqvist Traded to Panthers for Matheson

Postby pekkasteele on Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:08 am

Wyopen wrote:Can Johnson be sent to WBS? If so what’s the cost against the cap?


Yes, and we save ... I don't remember, maybe 1.25m in savings, but someone here knows the exact numbers I'm sure.
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Re: Hornqvist Traded to Panthers for Matheson

Postby longtimefan on Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:13 am

pekkasteele wrote:
Wyopen wrote:Can Johnson be sent to WBS? If so what’s the cost against the cap?


Yes, and we save ... I don't remember, maybe 1.25m in savings, but someone here knows the exact numbers I'm sure.


The savings this season is 1.075M. So he'd still carry a cap hit of $2.175M.
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Re: Hornqvist Traded to Panthers for Matheson

Postby LimerickPensFan on Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:46 pm

Cow_Master66 wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:"When I found out Pittsburgh didn't want me and Florida wanted me, it was an easy choice." - Patric Hornqvist today to media...

Also, per Panthers, Hornqvist will wear #70 for Florida.


Sounds a bit immature...I would have expected him to keep that type of response to himself and use it as motivation internally. He should know it’s a numbers game unless he was one of the “too comfortable” culprits....

According to DK, when he was on the ice after skating with the cup after scoring the game-winning goal in Nashville, he was still a bit butt-hurt about being selected last in the draft. It's on the last segment (starting at 24:40) of this podcast https://www.dkpittsburghsports.com/2020/09/28/steelers-pirates-penguins-daily-shot-ben-roethlisberger-dkps-dk-nah

My personal thought on this whole trade is that Hornqvist was slipping and they wanted to get something for him while they still could. I thought he seemed a bit tentative about going in front of the net in the play-in round, and without going in front of the net, his game isn't all that much.
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Re: Hornqvist Traded to Panthers for Matheson

Postby blurryhaze312 on Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:24 pm

Well, look. Just like Hines Ward, that chip on the shoulder is the reason they are so effective, why we love them as players, and why they quickly rub us the wrong way once their careers are near the end or over.

The chip isn't a shtick for them, and they'll go to their grave feeling snubbed by someone. Hopefully he realizes the business aspect and is eventually proud and comfortable in the fact that he not only helped bring this team out of the weird soft slump they were in after he arrived, but he scored the Cup winning goal in a back-to-back season. Guy will live as a legend in this city as a part of Pens history. Sad to see him go, but we all knew it was coming & necessary.
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Re: Hornqvist Traded to Panthers for Matheson

Postby Luckybreak on Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:55 am

blurryhaze312 wrote:Well, look. Just like Hines Ward, that chip on the shoulder is the reason they are so effective, why we love them as players, and why they quickly rub us the wrong way once their careers are near the end or over.

The chip isn't a shtick for them, and they'll go to their grave feeling snubbed by someone. Hopefully he realizes the business aspect and is eventually proud and comfortable in the fact that he not only helped bring this team out of the weird soft slump they were in after he arrived, but he scored the Cup winning goal in a back-to-back season. Guy will live as a legend in this city as a part of Pens history. Sad to see him go, but we all knew it was coming & necessary.


Totally agree. Some pros get told over and over they won't make it, aren't good enough, not skilled or too small etc etc. They use that as motivation and succeed because they are so driven. Other more talented players have half a much success or never make it because they don't have that fire burning. I don't buy the"it's a business" line. Hornqvist was emotionally invested, gave it all, literally bled for this team.

No one can ever criticise PH in that respect. He was the most consistently driven player on the team and, whilst he was deteriorating physically, his heart was there on his sleeve next to his numbers. It may have been the right move financially given his trajectory but will leave a hole in the locker room and in front of the net.
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Re: Hornqvist Traded to Panthers for Matheson

Postby murphydump55 on Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:06 am

Luckybreak wrote:
blurryhaze312 wrote:Well, look. Just like Hines Ward, that chip on the shoulder is the reason they are so effective, why we love them as players, and why they quickly rub us the wrong way once their careers are near the end or over.

The chip isn't a shtick for them, and they'll go to their grave feeling snubbed by someone. Hopefully he realizes the business aspect and is eventually proud and comfortable in the fact that he not only helped bring this team out of the weird soft slump they were in after he arrived, but he scored the Cup winning goal in a back-to-back season. Guy will live as a legend in this city as a part of Pens history. Sad to see him go, but we all knew it was coming & necessary.


Totally agree. Some pros get told over and over they won't make it, aren't good enough, not skilled or too small etc etc. They use that as motivation and succeed because they are so driven. Other more talented players have half a much success or never make it because they don't have that fire burning. I don't buy the"it's a business" line. Hornqvist was emotionally invested, gave it all, literally bled for this team.

No one can ever criticise PH in that respect. He was the most consistently driven player on the team and, whilst he was deteriorating physically, his heart was there on his sleeve next to his numbers. It may have been the right move financially given his trajectory but will leave a hole in the locker room and in front of the net.


I don’t think anyone questioned his heart or effort. He rarely, if ever, took a night off.
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