Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby KG on Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:45 pm

pens_CT wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:So GMJR ridded the team of:

Hornqvist - 5.3
Bjugstad - 4.1
Johnson - 3.25

12.65 total. But only gained 3.35 in cap space.

He’s chasing his tail again, cleaning up his own messes.


I think there's a lot of GMs out there that would rather have Rutherford's mess than their own. It's all a matter of perspective.


Absolutely. And Bjugstad being hurt as bad as he was couldn't have been predicted. He goes for it. As long as you win most that's the mentality I want for my GM.
KG
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 17,729
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:53 am
Location: NY

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby murphydump55 on Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:40 pm

KG wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:So GMJR ridded the team of:

Hornqvist - 5.3
Bjugstad - 4.1
Johnson - 3.25

12.65 total. But only gained 3.35 in cap space.

He’s chasing his tail again, cleaning up his own messes.


I think there's a lot of GMs out there that would rather have Rutherford's mess than their own. It's all a matter of perspective.


Absolutely. And Bjugstad being hurt as bad as he was couldn't have been predicted. He goes for it. As long as you win most that's the mentality I want for my GM.


Retaining on Bjugstad was awful. He’s made messes his whole time here much like he left Carolina in. This team didn’t play with a full lineup for several games because of his actions. Pretty unacceptable.

Rutherford kept bragging how Bjugstad was 100% and how he thinks he’s so good. Then trades him and retains. He’s all over the place.
murphydump55
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 13,584
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:06 pm
Location: the real hockeyville and apparently a janitor from Eastern Canada LOL

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby pens_CT on Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:31 pm

murphydump55 wrote:
KG wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:So GMJR ridded the team of:

Hornqvist - 5.3
Bjugstad - 4.1
Johnson - 3.25

12.65 total. But only gained 3.35 in cap space.

He’s chasing his tail again, cleaning up his own messes.


I think there's a lot of GMs out there that would rather have Rutherford's mess than their own. It's all a matter of perspective.


Absolutely. And Bjugstad being hurt as bad as he was couldn't have been predicted. He goes for it. As long as you win most that's the mentality I want for my GM.


Retaining on Bjugstad was awful. He’s made messes his whole time here much like he left Carolina in. This team didn’t play with a full lineup for several games because of his actions. Pretty unacceptable.

Rutherford kept bragging how Bjugstad was 100% and how he thinks he’s so good. Then trades him and retains. He’s all over the place.


I think the only mess he left Carolina was the Semin contract. For the most part Carolina didn't spend to the cap during his tenure down there. Jason Botterill was given much credit for being the "real brains" in the organization and look what he does after he goes to Buffalo he gives Skinner eight years at 9.0 million per season and a full NMC for the entire deal. The point being, every GM makes some big mistakes on contracts and trades. I stand by my original point that most GMs in this league would rather have Rutherford mess than their own.
pens_CT
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,200
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:47 pm

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby Hatrick on Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:34 am

SubtropicalPenguin wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Jim wrote:Cap hits of bury vs buyout:

Burying him:
20/21: 2.175
21/22: 2.125
22/23: 2.125

Buyout:
20/21: 1.167
21/22: 1.167
22/23: 1.917
23/24: 0.917
24/25: 0.917
25/26: 0.917

So basically:
20/21: Save 1.008
21/22: Save 0.958
22/23: Save 0.208
23/24: Cost 0.917
24/25: Cost 0.917
25/26: Cost 0.917

So save $1M cap the first two years, even, blow $1M cap the out three. 6 years of dead space vs 3 years.


The only way this makes sense is if the window is 2-3 years and then start from scratch


DING DING DING. I think you hit the nail on the head. I still would have probably just buried him, but I suppose at least there is a logic involved here. Also, anything that saves the Pens from themselves is probably a good thing on this front. If the Pens would have kept him around, you just know they would have ended up with him on the ice again. At least this way, he's not an anchor on the other third pairing defenseman when he inevitably gets unearned playing time.

no but now GMJR can go make a bad move on top of the bad move on top of the bad on top of the bad move.

Original bad move signing Johnson, bad move retaining on bjugstad, now buying out Johnson, all of those are bad moves and just to make room for another bad move...
Hatrick
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:48 pm

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby Hatrick on Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:42 am

pens_CT wrote:
Retaining on Bjugstad was awful. He’s made messes his whole time here much like he left Carolina in. This team didn’t play with a full lineup for several games because of his actions. Pretty unacceptable.

Rutherford kept bragging how Bjugstad was 100% and how he thinks he’s so good. Then trades him and retains. He’s all over the place.


I think the only mess he left Carolina was the Semin contract. For the most part Carolina didn't spend to the cap during his tenure down there. Jason Botterill was given much credit for being the "real brains" in the organization and look what he does after he goes to Buffalo he gives Skinner eight years at 9.0 million per season and a full NMC for the entire deal. The point being, every GM makes some big mistakes on contracts and trades. I stand by my original point that most GMs in this league would rather have Rutherford mess than their own.[/quote]
Well yeah most GM would rather have the team position Rutherford has, when you have Crosby, malkin, guentzel, etc. your mess doesn't doom the whole team. It gets you a whole lot more wiggle room and affords you some messes.
Hatrick
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:48 pm

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby Penguins Knight on Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:54 am

Jack Johnson receiving a buyout is the best move. No National Hockey League team wants to acquire him via trade. The Penguins' short and long-term plans do not involve him.

If Johnson wants to continue playing, he should consider the minors or overseas.
Penguins Knight
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 297
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:57 pm
Location: South Carolina

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby ville5 on Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:57 am

Penguins Knight wrote:Jack Johnson receiving a buyout is the best move. No National Hockey League team wants to acquire him via trade. The Penguins' short and long-term plans do not involve him.

If Johnson wants to continue playing, he should consider the minors or overseas.

Nah, someone will sign him for $1.5- $2 million.
ville5
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 8,302
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:17 pm
Location: getting body slammed by kelly kelly

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby Free Candy on Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:42 am

Man, we’re spoiled. We were back to back champs a mere three years ago. Now people want GMJR’s head :face: . Hey, man, sometimes things aren’t meant forever. But you come into a girl’s life, you make magic, and that magic remains forever. Are there some messes that will need to be fixed? Sure. Salary caps are a messy game. But those championship banners do hang from the rafters, do they not? Nobody’s perfect, maybe Don Shula. Just don’t give up hope just yet. Anything’s possible with Sid and Geno. Hey, anything is possible in THIS city, the city where Washington emasculated the French, and said “DUQUESNE?? Nay, we shall call it Pittsburgh.”
Free Candy
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 509
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:35 pm
Location: The North Hills

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby murphydump55 on Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:21 pm

Free Candy wrote:Man, we’re spoiled. We were back to back champs a mere three years ago. Now people want GMJR’s head :face: . Hey, man, sometimes things aren’t meant forever. But you come into a girl’s life, you make magic, and that magic remains forever. Are there some messes that will need to be fixed? Sure. Salary caps are a messy game. But those championship banners do hang from the rafters, do they not? Nobody’s perfect, maybe Don Shula. Just don’t give up hope just yet. Anything’s possible with Sid and Geno. Hey, anything is possible in THIS city, the city where Washington emasculated the French, and said “DUQUESNE?? Nay, we shall call it Pittsburgh.”


If he stopped running the team like a bored fantasy manager, I’d be okay. If we didn’t have to play without a full lineup, I’d be okay. If he stopped signing free agents to awful contracts, that everyone knows are awful, I’d be okay with him. If he didn’t hang players out to dry when it’s more on him, I’d be okay.

Sorry, not a fan.
murphydump55
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 13,584
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:06 pm
Location: the real hockeyville and apparently a janitor from Eastern Canada LOL

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby Daniel on Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:59 pm

Free Candy wrote:Man, we’re spoiled. We were back to back champs a mere three years ago. Now people want GMJR’s head :face: . Hey, man, sometimes things aren’t meant forever. But you come into a girl’s life, you make magic, and that magic remains forever. Are there some messes that will need to be fixed? Sure. Salary caps are a messy game. But those championship banners do hang from the rafters, do they not? Nobody’s perfect, maybe Don Shula. Just don’t give up hope just yet. Anything’s possible with Sid and Geno. Hey, anything is possible in THIS city, the city where Washington emasculated the French, and said “DUQUESNE?? Nay, we shall call it Pittsburgh.”


You’re right, we have been spoiled but that doesn’t mean we should just tolerate the last 3 seasons. It’s one of two things in my opinion, accept that we’re lucky to see 3 cups during this era and move on and rebuild or try to win more cups.

If the goal is to win more cups then we should be hard on JR for how he’s performed the last few years, but that doesn’t remove MS and the team of responsibility. It’s a team sport through and through. Just like with Sullivan, winning the cups might give a longer leash but it doesn’t mean we lower the standards and rest on the laurels.

We can appreciate JR, and even MS, for what they did while at the same time think it’s time for them to move on. Would any NHL team want our “problems” of the last 10+ years? Absolutely but I guarantee you those teams would want more than 3 cup wins. It isn’t that they lost heartbreaking hard fought playoff series, it’s that they haven’t really shown up in the playoffs since they lost to the Capitals. As fans, we should expect more.
Daniel
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,614
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:10 pm
Location: Dallas

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby Jim on Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:14 pm

Just a reminder of why buyouts stink... Columbus needs to make moves because they only have $7M in space with Domi ond others to sign... they have $1.25M in dead space because of their buyout of Hartnell. Hartnell last played for them in 16-17 and they still have him on the books.
Jim
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 18,310
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby Skatingpen on Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:18 pm

Jim wrote:Just a reminder of why buyouts stink... Columbus needs to make moves because they only have $7M in space with Domi ond others to sign... they have $1.25M in dead space because of their buyout of Hartnell. Hartnell last played for them in 16-17 and they still have him on the books.



Yep 6 more years of dead money/cap just to get rid of the whipping boy. What happens to the next whipping boy?
Skatingpen
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 8,495
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:13 pm

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby interstorm on Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:28 pm

Daniel wrote:
Free Candy wrote:Man, we’re spoiled. We were back to back champs a mere three years ago. Now people want GMJR’s head :face: . Hey, man, sometimes things aren’t meant forever. But you come into a girl’s life, you make magic, and that magic remains forever. Are there some messes that will need to be fixed? Sure. Salary caps are a messy game. But those championship banners do hang from the rafters, do they not? Nobody’s perfect, maybe Don Shula. Just don’t give up hope just yet. Anything’s possible with Sid and Geno. Hey, anything is possible in THIS city, the city where Washington emasculated the French, and said “DUQUESNE?? Nay, we shall call it Pittsburgh.”


You’re right, we have been spoiled but that doesn’t mean we should just tolerate the last 3 seasons. It’s one of two things in my opinion, accept that we’re lucky to see 3 cups during this era and move on and rebuild or try to win more cups.

If the goal is to win more cups then we should be hard on JR for how he’s performed the last few years, but that doesn’t remove MS and the team of responsibility. It’s a team sport through and through. Just like with Sullivan, winning the cups might give a longer leash but it doesn’t mean we lower the standards and rest on the laurels.

We can appreciate JR, and even MS, for what they did while at the same time think it’s time for them to move on. Would any NHL team want our “problems” of the last 10+ years? Absolutely but I guarantee you those teams would want more than 3 cup wins. It isn’t that they lost heartbreaking hard fought playoff series, it’s that they haven’t really shown up in the playoffs since they lost to the Capitals. As fans, we should expect more.


The way I look at it, GMJR is the type of guy who stands at the plate and tries to hit home runs. We can look at his recent record and say it hasn't been good and he's made decisions (all fair statements) but his methodology hasn't changed. We won thise back to back cups by taking on a questionable player in Kessel. He plucked Shultz and Trevor Daley off the scrap heap and they turned into important parts of championship teams. We can look at some of the things he's done and scratch our heads but he's been fairly consistent in digging for reclaimation projects in a boom or bust mode (this might even be required for winning teams to make such moves). Some have hit, some haven't. I get the bad moves - and signing JJ to that long contract for sure was the worst of them - but for the most part, I don't think we get the shrewd transactions that got us the cups without taking the misses as well. They all come together. That's who he is and what he brings to the team.

The question then shifts to whether he has lost his touch, if he is striking out more often than hitting the homers. Ultimately he - and the coaches - will be judged by their playoff performances...and recent history is not good. But given players are humans, have good days and bad days, injuries occur as well as a million other variables - I don't think knee jerk reactions are healthy for an organization at that level. I think it is completely fair to let GMJR operate as normal right now...he has earned it and proven he can make the bold moves...but as every year goes by and the cups get a little further in the distance, it is also fair to evaluate his ability to knock it out of the park still. I think the next season will be telling and the Matheson trade, another in the long line of bold moves, could be one of the make or break factors.

(That and you have to think that sooner or later he's going to step aside anyway, right?)
interstorm
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,117
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:53 pm
Location: From IglooReport - same user name

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby Daniel on Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:56 pm

interstorm wrote:The way I look at it, GMJR is the type of guy who stands at the plate and tries to hit home runs. We can look at his recent record and say it hasn't been good and he's made decisions (all fair statements) but his methodology hasn't changed. We won thise back to back cups by taking on a questionable player in Kessel. He plucked Shultz and Trevor Daley off the scrap heap and they turned into important parts of championship teams. We can look at some of the things he's done and scratch our heads but he's been fairly consistent in digging for reclaimation projects in a boom or bust mode (this might even be required for winning teams to make such moves). Some have hit, some haven't. I get the bad moves - and signing JJ to that long contract for sure was the worst of them - but for the most part, I don't think we get the shrewd transactions that got us the cups without taking the misses as well. They all come together. That's who he is and what he brings to the team.

The question then shifts to whether he has lost his touch, if he is striking out more often than hitting the homers. Ultimately he - and the coaches - will be judged by their playoff performances...and recent history is not good. But given players are humans, have good days and bad days, injuries occur as well as a million other variables - I don't think knee jerk reactions are healthy for an organization at that level. I think it is completely fair to let GMJR operate as normal right now...he has earned it and proven he can make the bold moves...but as every year goes by and the cups get a little further in the distance, it is also fair to evaluate his ability to knock it out of the park still. I think the next season will be telling and the Matheson trade, another in the long line of bold moves, could be one of the make or break factors.

(That and you have to think that sooner or later he's going to step aside anyway, right?)


Here’s what I think has changed. Other than Kessel, which was a huge move in my opinion, JR got role players and depth. He seemed to value WBS more and was more innovative in replacing draft picks with UDFA. With Sullivan this team had more competition for spots and filled them with WBS players instead of wasting bottom line/pairing spots on big contracts. Sure injuries helped, but they still allowed the competition. The farm system has always been suspect, this team seems to be immediate NHL help or projects and little in between.

Now what we’re seeing is wasted signings of Johnson, Tanev, etc. Spots that didn’t really need filled. How often has JR traded a player within 1 year of getting him?

Look at Conor Sheary. JR signed him and his NHL career has been better than about half the 1st round player of his draft class. We can say what we want about Sheary, but this team took an UDFA and developed him to the point that’s on par with highly drafted players. That’s quite a value for an asset. I know this is not a regular occurrence, but we haven’t seen anyone have anywhere near the success. It seems like JR will get a guy like Riikola then sign several players to push him down the depth chart. Marino came out of nowhere and pushed other players out but that hasn’t really been the norm lately.

I think JR has followed the path of Craig Patrick and Ray Shero. Develop players and get success then go after the shiny new toy as a shortcut rather than develop someone.
Daniel
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,614
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:10 pm
Location: Dallas

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby Hatrick on Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:48 am

interstorm wrote:
Daniel wrote:
Free Candy wrote:Man, we’re spoiled. We were back to back champs a mere three years ago. Now people want GMJR’s head :face: . Hey, man, sometimes things aren’t meant forever. But you come into a girl’s life, you make magic, and that magic remains forever. Are there some messes that will need to be fixed? Sure. Salary caps are a messy game. But those championship banners do hang from the rafters, do they not? Nobody’s perfect, maybe Don Shula. Just don’t give up hope just yet. Anything’s possible with Sid and Geno. Hey, anything is possible in THIS city, the city where Washington emasculated the French, and said “DUQUESNE?? Nay, we shall call it Pittsburgh.”


You’re right, we have been spoiled but that doesn’t mean we should just tolerate the last 3 seasons. It’s one of two things in my opinion, accept that we’re lucky to see 3 cups during this era and move on and rebuild or try to win more cups.

If the goal is to win more cups then we should be hard on JR for how he’s performed the last few years, but that doesn’t remove MS and the team of responsibility. It’s a team sport through and through. Just like with Sullivan, winning the cups might give a longer leash but it doesn’t mean we lower the standards and rest on the laurels.

We can appreciate JR, and even MS, for what they did while at the same time think it’s time for them to move on. Would any NHL team want our “problems” of the last 10+ years? Absolutely but I guarantee you those teams would want more than 3 cup wins. It isn’t that they lost heartbreaking hard fought playoff series, it’s that they haven’t really shown up in the playoffs since they lost to the Capitals. As fans, we should expect more.


The way I look at it, GMJR is the type of guy who stands at the plate and tries to hit home runs. We can look at his recent record and say it hasn't been good and he's made decisions (all fair statements) but his methodology hasn't changed. We won thise back to back cups by taking on a questionable player in Kessel. He plucked Shultz and Trevor Daley off the scrap heap and they turned into important parts of championship teams. We can look at some of the things he's done and scratch our heads but he's been fairly consistent in digging for reclaimation projects in a boom or bust mode (this might even be required for winning teams to make such moves). Some have hit, some haven't. I get the bad moves - and signing JJ to that long contract for sure was the worst of them - but for the most part, I don't think we get the shrewd transactions that got us the cups without taking the misses as well. They all come together. That's who he is and what he brings to the team.

The question then shifts to whether he has lost his touch, if he is striking out more often than hitting the homers. Ultimately he - and the coaches - will be judged by their playoff performances...and recent history is not good. But given players are humans, have good days and bad days, injuries occur as well as a million other variables - I don't think knee jerk reactions are healthy for an organization at that level. I think it is completely fair to let GMJR operate as normal right now...he has earned it and proven he can make the bold moves...but as every year goes by and the cups get a little further in the distance, it is also fair to evaluate his ability to knock it out of the park still. I think the next season will be telling and the Matheson trade, another in the long line of bold moves, could be one of the make or break factors.

(That and you have to think that sooner or later he's going to step aside anyway, right?)

frankly if they don't make a deep run next season he should be fired imo. When that homerun hitter takes a ton of bad swings and misses you bench him. He has taken A TON of swings this past year and at least one of them better hit it big, otherwise he struck out with the bases loaded and its time for the next hitter to drive in the runs(albeit with two outs instead of one out so the job will be tougher)
Hatrick
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 945
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:48 pm

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby no name on Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:10 pm

I can't believe the Rangers signed him 1 yr 1.15. I thought he would be playing in Europe.
no name
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 8,202
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:19 pm

Re: Pens to buy out JMFJ!

Postby longtimefan on Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:35 pm

no name wrote:I can't believe the Rangers signed him 1 yr 1.15. I thought he would be playing in Europe.


I've mentioned elsewhere that it's conceivable that Jacques Martin was his biggest cheerleader.
longtimefan
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,863
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:33 pm

Previous

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BigMcK and 37 guests


e-mail