2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby Defence21 on Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:47 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Sigwolf wrote:"it's more equivalent to your boss telling you you are getting a 50% cut in pay but still need to work 40 hours a week"

You entire post loses a ton of credence right there. They are not being asked to do the same amount of work for less pay. They are payed to play a game... they will be playing fewer games... there is no argument that will show they deserve to earn the full amount of money for less games. Previously agreed upon pay cuts are based on the current global economic situation, and losses already experienced. If they agreed on those cuts based on an 82 game schedule, that does not give them some divine right to the same amount if less than 82 games are played. They are separate cases, with separate reasons. It sucks to get less pay, but this is a global freaking pandemic, and a lot of people are being hurt by it financially. There are plenty of arguments that owners make too much money, but this is not the time to be championing those causes, that is why they have the CBA process.

The numbers you use for take home pay are even more useless. No one that is employed legally takes home their full salary. We all lose a ton to taxes, and almost anyone making the kind of money these guys are is also losing money to accountants and money managers. There could not be a more irrelevant point to this discussion.

Maybe they'll continue to stomp their feet and refuse to play if they don't get their way. Maybe the season will be scrapped because of it, and maybe the league will fold and they'll each have to come up with some other way to earn a living. Or maybe they can adapt to the crappy situation we are all facing right now.

I'll drop it. Having a better conversation with my wall right now.

I have to be honest, I was thinking the exact same thing as Sig. What the players agreed to over the summer -- which isn't being reported with much frequency, as far as I can see -- was based on an 82 game season. Now that an 82 game season is off the table, the players' offer is, as well. The players cannot and should not expect to make a larger percentage of pay than percentage of games played.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:48 pm

Defence21 wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Sigwolf wrote:"it's more equivalent to your boss telling you you are getting a 50% cut in pay but still need to work 40 hours a week"

You entire post loses a ton of credence right there. They are not being asked to do the same amount of work for less pay. They are payed to play a game... they will be playing fewer games... there is no argument that will show they deserve to earn the full amount of money for less games. Previously agreed upon pay cuts are based on the current global economic situation, and losses already experienced. If they agreed on those cuts based on an 82 game schedule, that does not give them some divine right to the same amount if less than 82 games are played. They are separate cases, with separate reasons. It sucks to get less pay, but this is a global freaking pandemic, and a lot of people are being hurt by it financially. There are plenty of arguments that owners make too much money, but this is not the time to be championing those causes, that is why they have the CBA process.

The numbers you use for take home pay are even more useless. No one that is employed legally takes home their full salary. We all lose a ton to taxes, and almost anyone making the kind of money these guys are is also losing money to accountants and money managers. There could not be a more irrelevant point to this discussion.

Maybe they'll continue to stomp their feet and refuse to play if they don't get their way. Maybe the season will be scrapped because of it, and maybe the league will fold and they'll each have to come up with some other way to earn a living. Or maybe they can adapt to the crappy situation we are all facing right now.

I'll drop it. Having a better conversation with my wall right now.

I have to be honest, I was thinking the exact same thing as Sig. What the players agreed to over the summer -- which isn't being reported with much frequency, as far as I can see -- was based on an 82 game season. Now that an 82 game season is off the table, the players' offer is, as well. The players cannot and should not expect to make a larger percentage of pay than percentage of games played.

I mean, it all depends on your viewpoint and how things were pitched. We just don't know. But I tend to see it as, expected a full season....whether they were asking for it or the league was pushing it....they made decisions based on that, and the players agreed to what they thought would be a full 82 game season....to give up 20% of their salary. So, the expectation as of this summer was, full season, 20% paycut. On top of that, they agreed to have another 13% of their salaries paid out over 3 years to further help the owners.

I see that as a lot of concessions by the players in my view. I also see it as stupid pitching by the NHL/owners. This whole thing was always in flux. The NHL should have been smarter than this, and should have at least strongly considered that things could change on a dime. They should have just worked out a return to play for the playoffs, and left the 2021 season until later. But they made monetary decisions in June 2020 based on 2021. If I was a player, I would be upset too. The NHL/owners now saying well, we can't get 82 games in, please give us even more concessions. Be smarter.

I don't really have a side in this, but, right now, I'm leaning a bit towards the players because, I have read and heard several things of how the NHL over-promised about "life in the bubble" and didn't deliver. I heard especially in Edmonton, things that were promised (don't have specific) weren't available when the players got there.

Somewhere there is a proper balance. My stance right now is, the players took a 20% paycut, and agreed to defer 13% over 3 years. If the owners need more concessions, it sounds like deferred payments would be the fairer choice, or some type of split between a small increase in paycut, maybe 5% more max, and anything above that is deferred. Too hard to tell at this point, but what I will find interesting is if, after whatever is decided and if a season happens, if there are teams still making money. If you put in owner favorable terms, and a third of the league is still making profits....I'd see that as an issue. The goal should be survival, and I think some owners are still looking at a goal of profits.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby no name on Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:02 pm

How about a 7 6 -6 -6 -6

Canadian: - Calgary, Edmonton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Winnipeg, Vancouver
Pacific: ANA, LA, SJ, Vegas COLO, ARI
MID South : DAL, ST.L, CHI MINN, DET, NASH
EAST north: BOS, NYI, NYR BUFF NJD PHI
EAST couth TB, CAR, PIT, FLA WASH COL

just thinking outside the box. 5 hub cities???
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby LimerickPensFan on Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:06 pm

no name wrote:How about a 7 6 -6 -6 -6

Canadian: - Calgary, Edmonton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Winnipeg, Vancouver
Pacific: ANA, LA, SJ, Vegas COLO, ARI
MID South : DAL, ST.L, CHI MINN, DET, NASH
EAST north: BOS, NYI, NYR BUFF NJD PHI
EAST couth TB, CAR, PIT, FLA WASH COL

just thinking outside the box. 5 hub cities???

Players have already stated they won't go for another hub city setup. What I heard proposed is scheduling only within the division, and have series like baseball does. Like go play at NYI for a series of three games followed by going to NYR for three followed by Philly in Pgh for three...
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:32 pm

LimerickPensFan wrote:
no name wrote:How about a 7 6 -6 -6 -6

Canadian: - Calgary, Edmonton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Winnipeg, Vancouver
Pacific: ANA, LA, SJ, Vegas COLO, ARI
MID South : DAL, ST.L, CHI MINN, DET, NASH
EAST north: BOS, NYI, NYR BUFF NJD PHI
EAST couth TB, CAR, PIT, FLA WASH COL

just thinking outside the box. 5 hub cities???

Players have already stated they won't go for another hub city setup. What I heard proposed is scheduling only within the division, and have series like baseball does. Like go play at NYI for a series of three games followed by going to NYR for three followed by Philly in Pgh for three...

Correct. That was the latest, most popular rumor I heard as well. Division play only, multiple game series at one team's location, no bubbles. My understanding is many owners are against the bubbles as well. Of course, some owners are against opening arenas at limited capacity, because some teams own their arenas and some don't, so very different from team to team impact.

All I keep hearing is, if they want to start January 1, they need to figure it out basically before Dec 1....otherwise we'd be looking at mid-January or February start date.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby Sigwolf on Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:36 pm

FLPensFan wrote:I'll drop it. Having a better conversation with my wall right now.


I'm sure you'll enjoy that. Your wall will never disagree with your viewpoints, so you should be all set.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:20 am

Sigwolf wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:I'll drop it. Having a better conversation with my wall right now.


I'm sure you'll enjoy that. Your wall will never disagree with your viewpoints, so you should be all set.

Nothing wrong with a disagreement on views and opinions (as Defence21 took a similar stance, but instead provided some actual logic in his post), but to just say that statement blows your credibility, this statement is useless, your statement is irrelevant really isn't the type of discussion that I want to continue having a conversation. You brought nothing of value to the topic, hence, my wall was just as informed as you were.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby ville5 on Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:44 am

There will be a severely shortened season and possibly corresponding major reduction in pay. If the pay reduction goes through, does anyone think there's a possibility any of the highest earners decide it's not worth the hassle? And opt out of the season all together?
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby Sigwolf on Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:57 am

FLPensFan wrote:
Sigwolf wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:I'll drop it. Having a better conversation with my wall right now.


I'm sure you'll enjoy that. Your wall will never disagree with your viewpoints, so you should be all set.

Nothing wrong with a disagreement on views and opinions (as Defence21 took a similar stance, but instead provided some actual logic in his post), but to just say that statement blows your credibility, this statement is useless, your statement is irrelevant really isn't the type of discussion that I want to continue having a conversation. You brought nothing of value to the topic, hence, my wall was just as informed as you were.


Conveniently ignoring the logic and reasons I provided after each of those statements. So sorry to offend your sensibilities, feel free to go back to your safe space.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby longtimefan on Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:30 am

Maybe this will shed a little light on where things stand. Although the state of the virus makes everything volatile. As things stand, there's a possibility that limited fans could become zero fans at any moment. There's just no certainty about what the future will hold.

https://www.pensburgh.com/2020/11/19/21 ... hlpa-talks

As the NHL and NHLPA began grinding away at the 2020-21 NHL schedule, both sides knew at some point there would be a conversation about salaries. In last summer’s collective bargaining agreement, the players agreed to collect 72 per cent of their gross pay for the upcoming season — a 10 per cent deferment, and 20 per cent escrow. In their eyes, that was the deal, whether they played one game or 82.

But, with full arenas far from reality, team owners did not like that and raised the idea of pro-rated salaries.

The players want to play, and the NHL — led by commissioner Gary Bettman — wants to get going. Aside from COVID-19 itself, this was going to be the biggest hurdle.


If the league remains fixed on a starting date on or around Jan. 1, as still appears to be the case, then movement between the league and the players association is required sometime soon. The league is prepared for a 14-day training camp to precede the regular season, which likely would consist of between 48 and 60 games.

If camps begin the second or third week of December (the seven clubs that did not participate in the summer tournament will be granted additional time on the ice), travel plans and protocols must be established within the next couple of weeks.

Negotiated realignment, regional play and a baseball-type schedule are anticipated for the season once the league and players settle on an economic framework for 2020-21


At this point, the NHL wants players to defer 12% more of their 2020-21 salaries to make the math work, which would drop an NHL player’s take home pay to about 62% of the actual money that their “guaranteed” contracts are written for. As of Wednesday night, that looks to be the major hurdle as to if the players will agree to this, or at least what other concessions they might gain if they do.



Pierre LeBrun
@PierreVLeBrun
NHLPA Board call wrapped up around 6:30 pm ET, went about 2 1/2 hours. No votes taken. Just a discussion. But sources say feeling on the call was that players aren't keen on changing salary deferral/escrow rates from what was already agreed to in June CBA. More discussion needed
6:56 PM · Nov 18, 202



Pierre LeBrun
@PierreVLeBrun
The NHL views this as a timing issue. The players are only entitled to 50 % of HRR. The more they take this year, the more they owe (in debt payments) in future years. Which is true. But the NHLPA factored all those factors when it agreed to the new CBA terms in June. So...
7:03 PM · Nov 18, 2020


Pierre LeBrun
@PierreVLeBrun
Bottom line, more discussion ahead for both the NHLPA internally (whether or not they're ultimately willing to tweak salary deferral and if so, what do they get in return?); and more NHL/NHLPA discussion. The clock is ticking.
7:04 PM · Nov 18, 2020
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby Sigwolf on Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:13 am

longtimefan wrote:Maybe this will shed a little light on where things stand. Although the state of the virus makes everything volatile. As things stand, there's a possibility that limited fans could become zero fans at any moment. There's just no certainty about what the future will hold.


That's the absolute key here. Expectations are one thing, but reality may be another. The players have to be willing to adapt to the reality of the situation, whatever that may be. If the summer cba agreement was not written to include the language that the salaries were valid for one game or 82, then what it meant "in their eyes" doesn't really matter. I think it is safe to say most people have had to adjust their expectations from what they had at the beginning of this year, or even the beginning of the summer. Until a vaccine proves to be effective on a large scale, and can be effectively distributed, things are not going to be normal. The players can either adjust to that and make the best of the situation, or they can stay home, make nothing, and risk permanently damaging the very source of their livelihood.

There's no question that it sucks to make less than the contract they signed, but it's not like it's just a case of the owner's trying to stick it to them. It's trying to keep things operational during a global crisis.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby no name on Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:34 pm

A Canadian div, 7 teams 10 games vs the 6 teams 60 games.

and 3-8 team US divsions, tried to use geographic locations.

BOS, NYI, NYR, PIT, PHI, CBJ, NJ, BUF

CHI, STL, DET, MINN, TB, FLA, WAS, CAR

SJ, ANA, LA, COL, ARI, DAL, VGK NASH

US divs, 8 games vs the 7 teams 56 games
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby Cow_Master66 on Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:01 pm

Sigwolf wrote:
longtimefan wrote:Maybe this will shed a little light on where things stand. Although the state of the virus makes everything volatile. As things stand, there's a possibility that limited fans could become zero fans at any moment. There's just no certainty about what the future will hold.


That's the absolute key here. Expectations are one thing, but reality may be another. The players have to be willing to adapt to the reality of the situation, whatever that may be. If the summer cba agreement was not written to include the language that the salaries were valid for one game or 82, then what it meant "in their eyes" doesn't really matter. I think it is safe to say most people have had to adjust their expectations from what they had at the beginning of this year, or even the beginning of the summer. Until a vaccine proves to be effective on a large scale, and can be effectively distributed, things are not going to be normal. The players can either adjust to that and make the best of the situation, or they can stay home, make nothing, and risk permanently damaging the very source of their livelihood.

There's no question that it sucks to make less than the contract they signed, but it's not like it's just a case of the owner's trying to stick it to them. It's trying to keep things operational during a global crisis.


Yeah I don’t even see the reason to get remotely excited about a season, especially January...My kids are out of school until at least Mid January...everything is getting worse, not better. I mean don’t get me wrong, they should be in school and this sham should be over, but we are going in the other direction.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby dark_forces on Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:25 pm

Will this pandemic have long lasting effects on the NHL?
Are people going to gradually lose interest and not want to attend games in person, and as a result, will we see a decrease in ticket prices, food prices, etc.?
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:37 pm

So, I read some more information today on the situation

--The CBA that was signed in June to resume play was a 6 year deal. It covered resuming the 19-20 season, 20-21 season, and I believe the next 4 seasons.
--The reason for all of those seasons covered is the flat cap over the first 2 years, as well as the deferred payments that start in 2022.
--The contention from the players, as stated previously is, the NHLPA went into the negotiations with forward looking thoughts. They had the belief that this would cover the next several seasons through the pandemic...ie, this was their effort to work out a deal that would get them through the pandemic.
--They are upset because now the owners are coming back and asking for more. As I stated in a previous post, the NHLPA was negotiating as "this is how we get through this thing." They 100% did not expect owners to come back later, after a signed agreement, and say we need more money back. They signed this deal in the middle of the pandemic. Nobody knew how long this would last, but NHLPA was under the impression that this 6 year deal was what owners needed to get through it. Now owners are coming back and saying they need more.

The reason the next week is so important is, anybody coming from other countries, especially those going to Canada, has to quarantine for 14 days. So, if the plan is to have training camps open mid-December for a January 1 start date, players need to start arriving for quarantine around Dec 1. There is also talk that the 7 teams not part of the playoff rounds this summer would get some extra time.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby sjnhiils on Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:51 pm

Pens could be in the central division without the Caps, Flyers, Rangers and Islanders. One more thing to not like about next season.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:45 pm

Also heard tonight via Associated Press that Canadian govt. will not give the Toronto Raptors permission to play games in Toronto for the upcoming NBA season. So....if they won't give one Canadian team permission to play in Canada, not sure how the NHL can get them to let 7 Canadian teams to play hockey in different cities in Canada, including Toronto.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby Steve Dave on Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:30 pm

FLPensFan wrote:Also heard tonight via Associated Press that Canadian govt. will not give the Toronto Raptors permission to play games in Toronto for the upcoming NBA season. So....if they won't give one Canadian team permission to play in Canada, not sure how the NHL can get them to let 7 Canadian teams to play hockey in different cities in Canada, including Toronto.

Then they can sit at home and watch the other teams play.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby murphydump55 on Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:37 pm

FLPensFan wrote:Also heard tonight via Associated Press that Canadian govt. will not give the Toronto Raptors permission to play games in Toronto for the upcoming NBA season. So....if they won't give one Canadian team permission to play in Canada, not sure how the NHL can get them to let 7 Canadian teams to play hockey in different cities in Canada, including Toronto.


Wouldn’t it mean that teams would be coming from the US to play the Raptors, whereas the Canadian teams in the NHL wouldn’t be crossing the border to play?
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby longtimefan on Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:23 am

murphydump55 wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Also heard tonight via Associated Press that Canadian govt. will not give the Toronto Raptors permission to play games in Toronto for the upcoming NBA season. So....if they won't give one Canadian team permission to play in Canada, not sure how the NHL can get them to let 7 Canadian teams to play hockey in different cities in Canada, including Toronto.


Wouldn’t it mean that teams would be coming from the US to play the Raptors, whereas the Canadian teams in the NHL wouldn’t be crossing the border to play?


That's my understanding as well. It's the border that's the problem. The Blue Jays played their season in Buffalo I believe.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby Hatrick on Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:29 am

longtimefan wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Also heard tonight via Associated Press that Canadian govt. will not give the Toronto Raptors permission to play games in Toronto for the upcoming NBA season. So....if they won't give one Canadian team permission to play in Canada, not sure how the NHL can get them to let 7 Canadian teams to play hockey in different cities in Canada, including Toronto.


Wouldn’t it mean that teams would be coming from the US to play the Raptors, whereas the Canadian teams in the NHL wouldn’t be crossing the border to play?


That's my understanding as well. It's the border that's the problem. The Blue Jays played their season in Buffalo I believe.

yeah the problem with the blue jays was not them playing games, it was teams coming from the US to play games. So they played in buffalo to avoid the border issue.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby sjnhiils on Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:00 pm

Larry Brooks is saying that the owners want another 13% in deferred salary for 20-21. This is going to drag out like the MLB negotiations.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby longtimefan on Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:48 pm

sjnhiils wrote:Larry Brooks is saying that the owners want another 13% in deferred salary for 20-21. This is going to drag out like the MLB negotiations.


I don't see that happening. Both sides understand they aren't MLB, or the NFL or NBA. Part of the MLB equation was posturing for their upcoming CBA negotiations. The NHL surprised everybody by agreeing to a 4 year CBA extension when they announced the return to play agreement. When all is said and done, the players are entitled to 50% of HRR. No more or less. It's a pay me now or pay me later situation. If they don't agree now, they're subject to paying off the debt in the future. Any delay will just lead to a further truncating of the season, decreasing revenues for everybody. Neither side can afford that. If the season doesn't happen, the players don't get paid anything. There's posturing going on. The NHLPA is likely angling for some sort of concession in return. But at the end of the day, they have as much to lose as the owners. And if teams can't survive, jobs go down accordingly.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby FLPensFan on Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:25 pm

Hatrick wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Also heard tonight via Associated Press that Canadian govt. will not give the Toronto Raptors permission to play games in Toronto for the upcoming NBA season. So....if they won't give one Canadian team permission to play in Canada, not sure how the NHL can get them to let 7 Canadian teams to play hockey in different cities in Canada, including Toronto.


Wouldn’t it mean that teams would be coming from the US to play the Raptors, whereas the Canadian teams in the NHL wouldn’t be crossing the border to play?


That's my understanding as well. It's the border that's the problem. The Blue Jays played their season in Buffalo I believe.

yeah the problem with the blue jays was not them playing games, it was teams coming from the US to play games. So they played in buffalo to avoid the border issue.

I think part of the issue here is that, Toronto is strongly considering a 28-day lockdown of the city to help combat COVID.
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Re: 2021 Season discussion (start date, # of games, etc)

Postby FLPensFan on Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:26 pm

longtimefan wrote:
sjnhiils wrote:Larry Brooks is saying that the owners want another 13% in deferred salary for 20-21. This is going to drag out like the MLB negotiations.


I don't see that happening. Both sides understand they aren't MLB, or the NFL or NBA. Part of the MLB equation was posturing for their upcoming CBA negotiations. The NHL surprised everybody by agreeing to a 4 year CBA extension when they announced the return to play agreement. When all is said and done, the players are entitled to 50% of HRR. No more or less. It's a pay me now or pay me later situation. If they don't agree now, they're subject to paying off the debt in the future. Any delay will just lead to a further truncating of the season, decreasing revenues for everybody. Neither side can afford that. If the season doesn't happen, the players don't get paid anything. There's posturing going on. The NHLPA is likely angling for some sort of concession in return. But at the end of the day, they have as much to lose as the owners. And if teams can't survive, jobs go down accordingly.

While deferred salary stinks, in the end, they are still getting their money. I think the players should be much more open to accepting some type of deferred salary deal than just an outright cut in pay that they won't get back at all.

Clock is ticking.
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