Plan B in the works

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Plan B in the works

Postby Reilly on Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:01 am

State and local politicians are working on a plan to fund a new arena for Pittsburgh -- with or without input from the Penguins -- and it will resemble stadium deals made for the Pirates and Steelers, Gov. Ed Rendell said Monday.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune ... 25853.html
Reilly
 

Postby pfim on Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:09 am

Hey, only took 7 years! Thanks for showing up, guys!
pfim
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,789
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:35 am
Location: Sitting in front of my computer

Postby Jamie on Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:52 am

Could be just lip service due to the vast amount of public pressure/exposure on the CrookED slots process. Rendell and Co. want to blast the Pens in the media for not coming to the table. The catch is that they KNOW the PENS are not allowed to due that, according to the agreement with the IOC. This is just a way for CrookED and crew to point the finger at the PENS if they leave town. Hey it would have been nice to see you guys at the table a year or two ago to hash this out. CrookEd is attempting to rob Peter to pay Paul. If that is what takes to keep the Pens in Piuttsburgh then so be it. But the thought of Ed Rendell makes me want to puke, the man is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

I wont believe a thing till Curly, Moe, and Larry put pen to paper and draft a binding agreement.
Jamie
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,062
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:04 pm
Location: Here or there

Postby Zscout on Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:04 am

Of course it was Ridge / Schweiker who stonewalled state support for an arena and left Rendell holding the bag of crap.
Now Rendell is making things happen, even after Penguin fans have been placing the blame on him, for doing what Ridge refused to do.

Vast amount of public pressure?
The Governor has little to do with the selection of the slots liscensees.
The legislator made sure of that.
He does know that city needs a new arena, and he is making good on his promise.

Problem is, the team is not a valuable with a public arena deal as it is with the ties to the casino.
We will see if Lemieux LTD is more nterested in keeping the team in the city, or reaping huge profits out of the franchise. My guess is the second.
Zscout
 

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:28 am

Welcome class to Intro to Pittsburgh / Pensylvania politics 101

In our first example the politicians have two options.

1) Get a new Arena through private funding
2) Build a new Arena with Tax money.

And they're choosing the second option...

Any questions?
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Postby bill from turtle creek on Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:18 am

Problem here is that the deals with the Pirates and Steelers contained a significant contribution from each of those two teams. Without the Pens at the table discussing this, it is pretty easy for Rendell to designate a big pile of money to come from the Pens, as well. If the Pens say that they won't ante up any $$$, then they really look like the bad guys.

Lemieux and Sawyer have to be careful here.
bill from turtle creek
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,686
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:15 pm
Location: Serenity Now, Serenity Now.

Postby penny lane on Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:35 am

Zscout wrote:Of course it was Ridge / Schweiker who stonewalled state support for an arena and left Rendell holding the bag of crap.
Now Rendell is making things happen, even after Penguin fans have been placing the blame on him, for doing what Ridge refused to do.

Vast amount of public pressure?
The Governor has little to do with the selection of the slots liscensees.
The legislator made sure of that.
He does know that city needs a new arena, and he is making good on his promise.

Problem is, the team is not a valuable with a public arena deal as it is with the ties to the casino.
We will see if Lemieux LTD is more nterested in keeping the team in the city, or reaping huge profits out of the franchise. My guess is the second.



gaming board has 3 people who Rendell picked, 2 democratic state senators & 2 republicans...one can only hope the republicans hold firm. :roll:

Call me a cynic but all this about a plan B for the pens means local/state gov know who exactly is getting the slots license & that they have been exposed and now must save face by ensuring they provide "tax" money for new arena.
Again, IOC will build a new arena & develop land that will not cost people anything new in taxes....why would I look towards plan B?
penny lane
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 28,659
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:29 pm
Location: Have fun, kick butt!

Postby Rob UK Pen on Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:56 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:Welcome class to Intro to Pittsburgh / Pensylvania politics 101...

I appreciate this is a big ask, but for the sake of us Johnny Foreigners can you give us a brief summary of how the whole state v city political system works (or doesn't!). I've been trying to get a handle on this situation but the US and the British national / local government systems are just so different.
Thanks. :D
Rob UK Pen
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,747
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:35 pm
Location: Sheffield, England

Postby NIN on Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:28 am

This "honest, hard working" effort on the part of our beloved politiicians compliments the posturing Forrest City took by stateing that they will "help" the city win or lose (by developeing anyways). They are trying to make it look like the Penguins would not be willing to help the city UNLESS they get the slots license. It is so obvious that the politicians are working with Harray. They are working in sequences to ensure that all of the publlic relations and posturing coincide with the greatest media impact. I am so ashamed to live here in this commonwealth where our politicians can whore themselves out to the highest bidder right in our faces while while showing no genuine interest in our city's future.

Procrastination is the shadow of self preservation. Exhibit B would be our current property tax situation.
NIN
 

Postby Bowser on Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:33 am

Rob - It does not work, that is the problem.

Most people who run for political office are not doing it for the civic duty, they do it for an agenda. Those agendas are mainly formed by lobbyists, who are paid by companies and individuals to get a certain piece of legislation passed or protected.

You see in Pennsylvania, state law does not require legitimate reports of funding by lobbyists. There are weak rules in the Senate and Governor but that's pretty much it.

They are a joke and people who complain about the rules and law in Washington would go nuts if they cared about PA politics.

The biggest problem in PA, is voter apathy. The state is full of old people who are not educated enough to understand 21st Century politics. They continue to vote for the last name, vote for the same guy, vote to keep things the same.

Old people hate change, even if it means they're better off.

This is why the city, county and state governments have been able to wash themselves in gold while the 95% of citizens struggle to pay their bills and build a nest egg for retirement.

This isn't exactly the answer to your question but its what I think about politics in PA.
Bowser
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,963
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:08 am

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:34 am

Rob UK Pen wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:Welcome class to Intro to Pittsburgh / Pensylvania politics 101...

I appreciate this is a big ask, but for the sake of us Johnny Foreigners can you give us a brief summary of how the whole state v city political system works (or doesn't!). I've been trying to get a handle on this situation but the US and the British national / local government systems are just so different.
Thanks. :D


No problem Rob. I'll post a quick summary in a few hours. (I have to run to a meeting right now)
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Postby Rob UK Pen on Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:44 am

Bowser wrote:...It does not work....Most people who run for political office are not doing it for the civic duty, they do it for an agenda. Those agendas are mainly formed by lobbyists, who are paid by companies and individuals to get a certain piece of legislation passed or protected....The biggest problem is voter apathy.....old people who are not educated enough to understand 21st Century politics. They continue to vote for the last name, vote for the same guy, vote to keep things the same....

Thanks.
Perhaps not as different to our system as I first thought.... :wink:
Rob UK Pen
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,747
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:35 pm
Location: Sheffield, England

Postby Rob UK Pen on Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:45 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:No problem Rob. I'll post a quick summary in a few hours. (I have to run to a meeting right now)

Thanks. :)
Rob UK Pen
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,747
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:35 pm
Location: Sheffield, England

Postby stimpy on Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:35 am

Zscout wrote:Of course it was Ridge / Schweiker who stonewalled state support for an arena and left Rendell holding the bag of crap.
Now Rendell is making things happen, even after Penguin fans have been placing the blame on him, for doing what Ridge refused to do.

Vast amount of public pressure?
The Governor has little to do with the selection of the slots liscensees.
The legislator made sure of that.
He does know that city needs a new arena, and he is making good on his promise.

Problem is, the team is not a valuable with a public arena deal as it is with the ties to the casino.
We will see if Lemieux LTD is more nterested in keeping the team in the city, or reaping huge profits out of the franchise. My guess is the second.


What is your source behind this accusation? From my memory, Lemieux and Ridge had a great relationship and Mario was confident in Ridge's support of a new arena. Because the arena would be used by more than just hockey, though, Ridge wanted more private money commited than was used for PNC park & Heinz field. Out of the 150 or so arena events a year, only 40-50 are Pens games. The Pirates provided $47.7 million of the total $260 million cost of PNC Park, with the rest from public sources, according to the Sports & Exhibition Authority. The Steelers provided $123 million of the $281 million cost of the new stadium.

You call all the double speak from CrookED Spendell 'making things happen'? Sounds like your reading right out of the Democrats handbook, which says, 'put your finger in the air, see which way the wind is blowing, and go with it'
stimpy
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:47 am
Location: Canonsburg, PA

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:54 am

Bowser wrote:The biggest problem in PA, is voter apathy. The state is full of old people who are not educated enough to understand 21st Century politics. They continue to vote for the last name, vote for the same guy, vote to keep things the same.

Old people hate change, even if it means they're better off.



While your points are valid, one of the biggest drivers of voters in SW PA is property taxes.

First, for those of you who aren't familiar with the area. Outside of Arizona and Florida, the Southwestern PA area (Which includes Pittsburgh) has the largest per cap. number of retirees. In other areas of the country, you can sell a home and move to Florida or Arizona and buy something comparable for less than half the price. (Although this is begining to change in the past five years). The Pittsburgh area though, because it *is* so economically challenged, has a very low priced realestate market. Many retirees simply can not afford to leave the area.

These retirees are now empty nesters and have no children in the public school system. The same public school system which is funded by property taxes. So these fixed income pensioners who have paid off their mortgages, well, their biggest bill is the property tax on their homes. Which in turn funds schools that they are no longer interested in.

The PA slots initiative was an attempt to find an additional source of revenue for the school public systems. So that the property taxes could be kept low. This was a STATE initiative.

What happens to these public projects is that while they may have honorable intentions initially, they tend to get hijacked by corrupt politicians and special interests.

My personal opinion is that the expectations of slots revenue are much too high. But slots ARE coming to PA.

The local government has very little control on a State government issue, except to intimate that they won't cooperate on other matters the state cares about if the local interests aren't met.

One of the major problems with the State of Pennsylvania is that there's a great disparity between the Power center of Philadelphia, where the majority of the population resides, the Rural Areas and the Western part of the State where Pittsburgh is located.

There's a very strong sentiment in the Pittsburgh area that much of the State tax revenue is spent in the Eastern part of the State (read: Philly) and that Pittsburgh gets the 'short end of the stick'.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

PLAN C-

Postby penny lane on Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:22 am

I wrote to the Governor today...no reply at all...but just said his plan B is shameful to him & to residents of city & county. Shameful that mayor will go blindly along & CO exec also to further his career.

Fast Ed Rendell needs quickly to scramble for Plan C; a scheme to get
the Ratner FAmily & Forrest Cities some money to make up for them NOT
getting the slots license.
penny lane
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 28,659
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:29 pm
Location: Have fun, kick butt!

Re: Plan B in the works

Postby dboss on Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:37 am

Reilly wrote:State and local politicians are working on a plan to fund a new arena for Pittsburgh -- with or without input from the Penguins -- and it will resemble stadium deals made for the Pirates and Steelers, Gov. Ed Rendell said Monday.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune ... 25853.html


This is so funny because just last week Onorato said in his interview with Savran that he thought the Pens signing that deal was logical and he didn't blame them one bit. What's this, the three stooges aren't expelling the same rhetoric??? Sounds like O'Connor and Rendell need to pull Onorato aside and remind him that this is all for show to say they did something to TRY and save the Pens. Rendell is such a scumbag. I hate that man more than any other politician. So what if the Pens balk at having to pay $30 mill or w/e is required in Plan B for a new arena? The city STILL needs to have a new arena for other events, etc.

This sure seems like a lot of posturing on their end. Rendell is doing everything he can to make sure FC doesn't have to chip in for any new arena funding.
dboss
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:33 am
Location: McCandless Twp, PA

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:54 pm

Does anyone remember *this* proposal?

I hope this isn't what the pols have 'up their collective sleeve'

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04115/305942.stm
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Postby HomerPenguin on Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:04 pm

stimpy wrote:
Zscout wrote:Of course it was Ridge / Schweiker who stonewalled state support for an arena and left Rendell holding the bag of crap.
Now Rendell is making things happen, even after Penguin fans have been placing the blame on him, for doing what Ridge refused to do.

Vast amount of public pressure?
The Governor has little to do with the selection of the slots liscensees.
The legislator made sure of that.
He does know that city needs a new arena, and he is making good on his promise.

Problem is, the team is not a valuable with a public arena deal as it is with the ties to the casino.
We will see if Lemieux LTD is more nterested in keeping the team in the city, or reaping huge profits out of the franchise. My guess is the second.


What is your source behind this accusation? From my memory, Lemieux and Ridge had a great relationship and Mario was confident in Ridge's support of a new arena. Because the arena would be used by more than just hockey, though, Ridge wanted more private money commited than was used for PNC park & Heinz field. Out of the 150 or so arena events a year, only 40-50 are Pens games. The Pirates provided $47.7 million of the total $260 million cost of PNC Park, with the rest from public sources, according to the Sports & Exhibition Authority. The Steelers provided $123 million of the $281 million cost of the new stadium.

You call all the double speak from CrookED Spendell 'making things happen'? Sounds like your reading right out of the Democrats handbook, which says, 'put your finger in the air, see which way the wind is blowing, and go with it'


Stimpy, it's already been well-established that zscout has his head far, far, up Rendell's ***. Please don't use his sycophancy and toadying as an example of the behavior of all Democrats or liberals.
HomerPenguin
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,884
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:50 pm
Location: ...

Postby HomerPenguin on Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:14 pm

Zscout wrote:Of course it was Ridge / Schweiker who stonewalled state support for an arena and left Rendell holding the bag of crap.
Now Rendell is making things happen, even after Penguin fans have been placing the blame on him, for doing what Ridge refused to do.


Hell, why not go all the way back to Howard Baldwin? I mean, he was offered the chance to get on the original Plan B gravy train and turned it down. While we're at it, if the damn NHL hadn't expanded in 1967 we wouldn't even be having this conversation. And CURSE those damn Canadians for inventing this game in the first place! I mean, anything to take the heat off of your boy Fast Eddie, right?

Vast amount of public pressure?
The Governor has little to do with the selection of the slots liscensees.
The legislator made sure of that.
He does know that city needs a new arena, and he is making good on his promise.


LOL. Only in the world of the devoted lackey can empty words about a vague "Plan B" be equal to actual serious action toward building a new arena.

Problem is, the team is not a valuable with a public arena deal as it is with the ties to the casino.
We will see if Lemieux LTD is more nterested in keeping the team in the city, or reaping huge profits out of the franchise. My guess is the second.


Seriously, I know EPP will say that this means I've lost the argument, but go f yourself. You have absolutely no basis for claiming that Lemieux doesn't want to do everything within reason to keep the team in Pittsburgh. Absolutely none. On the other hand, the folks who are complaining about Fast Eddie have going on 4 years of complete inaction on an arena and a relative lack of concern for SW Pennsylvania altogether to back up their complaints.
Last edited by HomerPenguin on Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
HomerPenguin
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,884
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:50 pm
Location: ...

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:56 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:Seriously, I know EPP will say that this means I've lost the argument, but go f yourself. You have absolutely no basis for claiming that Lemieux doesn't want to do everything within reason to keep the team in Pittsburgh. Absolutely none. On the other hand, the folks who are complaining about Fast Eddie have going on 4 years of complete inaction on an arena and a relative lack of concern for SW Pensylvania altogether to back up their complaints.


LOL. Well, while I disagree with your approach to this debate, I certainly share your sentiments. The only difference between the two of us on this issue HP, is that you chose to voice what I was feeling. :-)

Zscout, your being completely disingenuous.

Zscout, as has been documented in other threads here on LGP today, Rendell went public less than 8 months ago, telling the Pens that no public financing was available, that they should pursue a 'privately funded option', the Pens called the Gov's bluff and put him squarely behind the 'eightball' by filing for a slots license, the very same slots license that the former mayor of Pittsburgh has gone public as saying that "the fix is in" and intimating that Rendell had already promised the license to FC.

Then, the Gov. turns around and tries to put the Pens in a 'box' by putting public funding back on the table at the 11th hour. Now the Pens would be throwing IoC under the bus if they even talked about other methods of funding the Arena. After all IoC has done to work with the Pens, the Pens would be totally unethical to weaken IoC's hand. Your beloved Govener has expressed his total bewilderment in the papers today at the Pens current position.

Either the Gov. is a complete moron, or he's playing some of the dirtiest public politics I've seen in quite sometime. (And I don't think he's a complete moron).

The Pols had their chance, When the current ownership group stepped up to the table and purchased the Pens they were given promises, promises that went unfilled. The Pens did *exactly* as they were told, and now Rendell wants to change the perameters again. ENOUGH.

As for your contention that Mario is more interested in "reaping huge profits out of the franchise" than in "keeping the team in the City"... Since when did those two goals become mutually exclusive?

IoC provides for a new Arena, developement of a blighted area of the city, and a slots casino. What has FC or Barden done that matches that?
Last edited by ExPatriatePen on Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Postby HomerPenguin on Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:03 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:Then, the mayor turns around and tries to put the Pens in a 'box' by putting public funding back on the table at the 11th hour. Now the Pens would be throwing IoC under the bus if they even talked about other methods of funding the Arena. After all IoC has done to work with the Pens, the Pens would be totally unethical to weaken IoC's hand. Your beloved Govener has expressed his total bewilderment in the papers today at the Pens current position.


It would't just be unethical for the Pengiuns to start negotiations behind Isle of Capri's back, it might be legally impossible without incurring a breach of contract suit. Depends on how their deal iwth IoC is structured.
HomerPenguin
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,884
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:50 pm
Location: ...

Postby Jamie on Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:06 pm

Zscout wrote:Of course it was Ridge / Schweiker who stonewalled state support for an arena and left Rendell holding the bag of crap.
Now Rendell is making things happen, even after Penguin fans have been placing the blame on him, for doing what Ridge refused to do.

Vast amount of public pressure?
The Governor has little to do with the selection of the slots liscensees.
The legislator made sure of that.
He does know that city needs a new arena, and he is making good on his promise.

Problem is, the team is not a valuable with a public arena deal as it is with the ties to the casino.
We will see if Lemieux LTD is more nterested in keeping the team in the city, or reaping huge profits out of the franchise. My guess is the second.


The only thing Rendell is making happen is the saving of face. He continues to talk out of both sides of his head, because of the media attention this situation has captured.

He is making good on his promise? LOL. Man I want some of the kool-aid you are drinking. He could give a damn less whether the PENS stay or leave. He told the PENS no public money was available at every turn over the last 7 years, and the PENS should find an alternative that involves private funding. THe PENS put together a plan with IOC that achieves the private funding request. Now the Governor is trying to work on a plan B. Funny thing is Rendell and his chronies were not willing to work on plan B, UNTIL it became public knowledge that the PENS could not discuss any alternative plans due to their IOC agreement. If you think that the Governor has little to due with the awarding of the license then have some more of your kool-aid.
Jamie
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,062
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:04 pm
Location: Here or there

Postby jimjom on Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:33 pm

I may be late or missing out on something posted already (if so I apologize), but Gov. Pigface was also interviewed briefly on the news last night, 11 PM, KDKA expressing said bewilderment and talking about how he and other pols couldn't talk with the Pens due to their agreement with IoC.
jimjom
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,860
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:34 pm
Location: Presto

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:36 pm

jimjom wrote:I may be late or missing out on something posted already (if so I apologize), but Gov. Pigface was also interviewed briefly on the news last night, 11 PM, KDKA expressing said bewilderment and talking about how he and other pols couldn't talk with the Pens due to their agreement with IoC.


Said agreement being in force for about two months now... prior to that, the Gov has been in office over three years... Hmmm... wonder what he was waiting for?
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Next

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AIS31, jcgopens, lazydaze203 and 43 guests


e-mail