Plan B in the works

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Postby Stoosh on Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:58 pm

If Rendell, Mayor McBob and Onorato are truly shocked that the Pens and IoC entered into this exclusivity agreement, then I wouldn't want any of the three of them running my business for me, ever. In fact, I'd leave them out of any remotely-pertinent business decision my company would make.

The exclusivity agreement was a completely logical and perfectly sound business tool that IoC probably asked for because it protects their interests. If the Pens were allowed to seek alternate funding and such funding was suitable, it could weaken IoC's bid. Plain and simple. They're protecting their interests. Nothing more.
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Postby dboss on Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:26 pm

Stoosh wrote:If Rendell, Mayor McBob and Onorato are truly shocked that the Pens and IoC entered into this exclusivity agreement, then I wouldn't want any of the three of them running my business for me, ever. In fact, I'd leave them out of any remotely-pertinent business decision my company would make.

The exclusivity agreement was a completely logical and perfectly sound business tool that IoC probably asked for because it protects their interests. If the Pens were allowed to seek alternate funding and such funding was suitable, it could weaken IoC's bid. Plain and simple. They're protecting their interests. Nothing more.


Totally agree. I believe in Onorato's conversations with Savran he said that made perfect sense for the Pens to do that (I might have to go to the Pens site to listen to that interview again just to make sure).
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Postby Ben Klingston on Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:03 pm

Zscout wrote:Of course it was Ridge / Schweiker who stonewalled state support for an arena and left Rendell holding the bag of crap.
Now Rendell is making things happen, even after Penguin fans have been placing the blame on him, for doing what Ridge refused to do.


You could be right. Or it could be, as others have pointed out, lip service on his part, since he knows the Pens can't investigate a Plan B with their binding agreement with IOC. Based on Rendell's track record, I'll go with the lattes scenario. I hope I'm wrong.



Zscout wrote:The Governor has little to do with the selection of the slots liscensees.


Oh, if only that were true.

Zscout wrote:Problem is, the team is not a valuable with a public arena deal as it is with the ties to the casino.
We will see if Lemieux LTD is more nterested in keeping the team in the city, or reaping huge profits out of the franchise. My guess is the second.


It's not necessarily whether they can make more profit long-term in another city. It's about whether they can swallow at least a few more years of non-existent Mellon Arena profit, until a new arena is built. That's assuming that a Plan B is definitely finalized before they have an opportunity to move. Tough to expect them to turn down offers to move with a Plan B still a 'maybe'.
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Postby netwolf on Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:14 pm

Ben Klingston wrote:
Zscout wrote:The Governor has little to do with the selection of the slots liscensees.


Oh, if only that were true.


IIRC it's a 7 member board. The gov handpicks 3 of them, the Democrats in the state legislature (his party) pick 2 and the state Republicans pick the other two.

He handpicks 3 of 7 and you can be sure he at the least has a strong say in 2 more. Neither 3, 4, or 5 of 7 is "little" in my book.
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Postby randy on Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:36 pm

"Of course it was Ridge / Schweiker who stonewalled state support for an arena and left Rendell holding the bag of crap.
Now Rendell is making things happen, even after Penguin fans have been placing the blame on him, for doing what Ridge refused to do.
Vast amount of public pressure?
The Governor has little to do with the selection of the slots liscensees.
The legislator made sure of that.
He does know that city needs a new arena, and he is making good on his promise.Problem is, the team is not a valuable with a public arena deal as it is with the ties to the casino.
We will see if Lemieux LTD is more nterested in keeping the team in the city, or reaping huge profits out of the franchise. My guess is the second."


After reading the above quoted tripe from zscout, I have NO doubt that not only is he an Allegheny County employee, but so are probably half of his family members (the other half that arent employed by the city and state that is), getting their lifetime positions because some relative is a democratic committee member undoubtedly. Just cruising through life not having to do anything, and not having to worry about anything, for having connections will get them by, just as long as they keep pulling the right lever.
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Postby bill from turtle creek on Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:39 pm

It's quite possibly true. I have met NO ONE who supports O'Connor, Rendell, and Onorato on how this issue has been handled, except for a few people whose families are in bed with the local patronage system. You can hardly blame them, though; they sure don't want the gravy train to stop, even if the train (and the station) keep getting emptier every day.
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Postby DayWalker on Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:52 pm

Get those black hats fitted for the Penguins.

The politicians who are crafting this "Plan B" have to be fully aware that the Penguins cannot (will not?) make up the financing shortfall that is going to be asked of them when they have brandy new arenas waiting for them in Houston, K.C., etc....free-of-charge arenas at that.

So, those elected officials will be off the hook with the vast majority of the voting public when they can turn around and say "Well, we crafted similar plans for McClatchy and Rooney and they said yes and it is truly regrettable that Mario and the Penguins said no."

Sorry, but only die-hard Pittsburgh Penguin partisans are likely to side with the organ-i-zation when the team leaves for greener pastures even AFTER being offered a plan similar to Messrs. McClatchy and Rooney.

And afterall, haven't a lot of Penguins fans been demanding that Mario and the Penguins only be given a fair chance or a modicum of attention similar to that which was offered to the other two professional sports team oweners in town?

What happens when that too comes to pass and the Penguins/Mario/whomever says "no?" Are we still going to blame the elected officials for not FAVORING the Penguins over McClatchy and Rooney and offering them a BETTER deal?

These politicians ain't as stoopid as you folks would like to believe.
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Postby bill from turtle creek on Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:02 pm

But, one can make the claim that a "multi-purpose" arena is a different kettle of fish than a stadium.

However, if I were Lemieux and Burkle, I'd pony up the money (Burkle can surely afford it) and drive a hard bargain about having the ability to fully run the arena for all nights of the year. Properly run, that should provide them a big return on investment. Then they've turned the whole thing around on the politicians.
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Postby Draftnik on Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:05 pm

The slam at former Gov Ridge is a joke. The $90 mil unfunded appropriation Rendell theoretically may use was put in the capital projects fund by Ridge. It wasn't funded because Ridge wanted other capital sources, especially private $$$ to be funded before the State kicked in their share. It made no sense to have $90M sitting in some account for what now is 7 years waiting for the other sources to magically appear.

The fact anybody tries to defend Rendell's doubletalk impeaches their credibility on this topic.
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Postby HomerPenguin on Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:33 pm

Chris wrote:Ridge offered the Pens a new arena when PNC and Heinz field were built. Howard Baldwin said "naaaahh". Rendell has done NOTHING for western PA from what I can see. For you to say Rendell is making things happen is the funniest thing I have seen you post on this board. You are highly misinformed...


Zscout is a tool, Chris. Being informed or misinformed has nothing to do with it.
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Postby Marshall Dylan on Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:27 pm

Bowser wrote:Rob - It does not work, that is the problem.

Most people who run for political office are not doing it for the civic duty, they do it for an agenda. Those agendas are mainly formed by lobbyists, who are paid by companies and individuals to get a certain piece of legislation passed or protected.

You see in Pennsylvania, state law does not require legitimate reports of funding by lobbyists. There are weak rules in the Senate and Governor but that's pretty much it.

They are a joke and people who complain about the rules and law in Washington would go nuts if they cared about PA politics.

The biggest problem in PA, is voter apathy. The state is full of old people who are not educated enough to understand 21st Century politics. They continue to vote for the last name, vote for the same guy, vote to keep things the same.

Old people hate change, even if it means they're better off.

This is why the city, county and state governments have been able to wash themselves in gold while the 95% of citizens struggle to pay their bills and build a nest egg for retirement.

This isn't exactly the answer to your question but its what I think about politics in PA.


Yes, damn it, PA should be progressive like Minnesota and elect a former wrestler who runs under a phony name, lies about his military background and does nothing to help the state.
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Postby NIN on Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:39 pm

Marshall Dylan wrote:
Yes, damn it, PA should be progressive like Minnesota and elect a former wrestler who runs under a phony name, lies about his military background and does nothing to help the state.


Dude, he is an X-Navy SEAL and he isnt the first man to use personnal charisma to make it in the movie business. He held a chopper mini gun in the movie Predator for crying out loud! Ol' Painless he called it. Sure he was in wrestling but he obviously held a higher standard by not ruining his life with illegal substances. We need more people like Ventura in office. People that grow up and become career politicians have abandoned their sense of self worth LONG AGO and are they know they are heading straight for hell and wont mind leading us there so they can have some company.

I am never going to that slots parlor no matter what. They assume we will greddily spend our hard earned money on gambling? 500% of our tax dollars go towards schools and im suppose to feel happy that their awnser to this is gambling. WOW. More leaders like ours in this so-called commonwealth and our kids will be running 24/7 Uni-Marts in Bagdad by the end of the week.
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Postby bill from turtle creek on Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:43 pm

NIN wrote:
Marshall Dylan wrote:
Yes, damn it, PA should be progressive like Minnesota and elect a former wrestler who runs under a phony name, lies about his military background and does nothing to help the state.



I'd like to think that there's a happy medium here. There is surely no reason to keep electing the losers that this city has been electing for 100 years, that is for sure. If you don't agree with that statement, then you probably think our economy is great, our population is growing, and any day now the steel mills will be back.
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Postby Marshall Dylan on Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:52 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:
NIN wrote:
Marshall Dylan wrote:
Yes, damn it, PA should be progressive like Minnesota and elect a former wrestler who runs under a phony name, lies about his military background and does nothing to help the state.



I'd like to think that there's a happy medium here. There is surely no reason to keep electing the losers that this city has been electing for 100 years, that is for sure. If you don't agree with that statement, then you probably think our economy is great, our population is growing, and any day now the steel mills will be back.


Richard Caliguiri was a loser, eh? Tom Ridge was? Dick Thornburg?
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Postby NIN on Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:53 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:
NIN wrote:
Marshall Dylan wrote:
Yes, damn it, PA should be progressive like Minnesota and elect a former wrestler who runs under a phony name, lies about his military background and does nothing to help the state.



I'd like to think that there's a happy medium here. There is surely no reason to keep electing the losers that this city has been electing for 100 years, that is for sure. If you don't agree with that statement, then you probably think our economy is great, our population is growing, and any day now the steel mills will be back.


I am not opposed to X-athletes running for office. Their charactor has been tested under the spotlight and they met the challenge for the betterment of their team. What has Randell or Onorato (or many of us for that matter) done in their lives that has tested their character to that extent and come out a winner? Of course there is alot of education that they should undergo because I dont want a puppet or a dim-wit speaking to me about important issuse that affect millions of people.

I think anybody should be allowed to become a leader but integrity is something our counrty has been lossing. Today's politicians are so ME ME ME ME ME that when they speak you have to consider "what personnal agenda are they serving by saying that?"/ They are so enthralled with their own careers and what to say and what not to say that there is no genuine charisma (ie. leadership) in their actions.
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Postby bill from turtle creek on Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:01 pm

Marshall Dylan wrote:
bill from turtle creek wrote:
NIN wrote:
Marshall Dylan wrote:
Richard Caliguiri was a loser, eh? Tom Ridge was? Dick Thornburg?



OK, I'll make an exception for Caliguiri. He did a great job, and his death marked the beginning of the death spiral for this city. Thornburg was nothing to write home about, and given what has happened over the last ten years to the state's economy, one would have to judge that Ridge's policies were not successful.

You can try to support any politician you want, but the bottom line is that the state's economy is terrible, and is only getting worse. If you think any of the last few governors have done anything to change this, you are very easily impressed. Masloff and Murphy were absolute total disasters and national laughingstocks who were reelected easily by the stupid electorate. It's obvious that when someone in Pittsburgh registers to vote as a Democrat, much of their cerebral cortex is removed at the same time.
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Postby dboss on Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:29 pm

WVPens wrote:I know we're talking about huge amounts of money here, but should it really be that difficult for a state to come up with 300 million dollars? Start with the 90 million that's supposedly available, then make whoever gets the license put up 100 million. That's 190 right there. Where do these 50 million dollar application fees go? 14 licenses are to be handed out, 14 x 50 million = 700 million dollars. Why can't you just take 100 million out of that? Or just take 50 million out of that, you're still at 240 million. Have the Pens put some money up, get naming rights, etc etc. It shouldn't be that hard.

The Pens have said that they are going to wait to make a move until the slots license is decided. If they don't get the license, I'm sure they can sit down with the government and bang out a plan in 2-3 months, especially if the government had been working on a plan. It's not like construction is going to begin the day the license is awarded.

I know Lemieux has said that the slots are our last chance, but if our officials can actually make substantial progress on their own in the next few months, he'd owe it to the fans to give it one more try. He's going to make his money either way.

Just thinking out loud.


Sorry, but I disagree. If the Pens don't get the Slots License and Plan B is not to the Pens liking (meaning they have to contribute $100 mill or some outrageous figure) I think they are announcing they are leaving for another city within a few days. I don't see any deliberation beyond that point. Why should their be? This city and county have given them nothing but empty promises for 7 years, why should they be expected to give them 3 months now that they are SUPPOSEDLY ready. And again this is based on Plan B actually being viable and not just a tool that Rendell, etc. are using to play politics with the Pens.
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Postby dboss on Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:57 pm

WVPens wrote:
dboss wrote:
WVPens wrote:I know we're talking about huge amounts of money here, but should it really be that difficult for a state to come up with 300 million dollars? Start with the 90 million that's supposedly available, then make whoever gets the license put up 100 million. That's 190 right there. Where do these 50 million dollar application fees go? 14 licenses are to be handed out, 14 x 50 million = 700 million dollars. Why can't you just take 100 million out of that? Or just take 50 million out of that, you're still at 240 million. Have the Pens put some money up, get naming rights, etc etc. It shouldn't be that hard.

The Pens have said that they are going to wait to make a move until the slots license is decided. If they don't get the license, I'm sure they can sit down with the government and bang out a plan in 2-3 months, especially if the government had been working on a plan. It's not like construction is going to begin the day the license is awarded.

I know Lemieux has said that the slots are our last chance, but if our officials can actually make substantial progress on their own in the next few months, he'd owe it to the fans to give it one more try. He's going to make his money either way.

Just thinking out loud.


Sorry, but I disagree. If the Pens don't get the Slots License and Plan B is not to the Pens liking (meaning they have to contribute $100 mill or some outrageous figure) I think they are announcing they are leaving for another city within a few days. I don't see any deliberation beyond that point. Why should their be? This city and county have given them nothing but empty promises for 7 years, why should they be expected to give them 3 months now that they are SUPPOSEDLY ready. And again this is based on Plan B actually being viable and not just a tool that Rendell, etc. are using to play politics with the Pens.


What exactly do you disagree with? My whole post was based on the government working on a plan for 10 months and coming up with something decent.


I don't see the Pens sticking around 3 months after the slots license is awarded to work out a deal with Pittsburgh.
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Postby Marshall Dylan on Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:28 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:
Marshall Dylan wrote:
bill from turtle creek wrote:
NIN wrote:
Marshall Dylan wrote:
Richard Caliguiri was a loser, eh? Tom Ridge was? Dick Thornburg?



OK, I'll make an exception for Caliguiri. He did a great job, and his death marked the beginning of the death spiral for this city. Thornburg was nothing to write home about, and given what has happened over the last ten years to the state's economy, one would have to judge that Ridge's policies were not successful.

You can try to support any politician you want, but the bottom line is that the state's economy is terrible, and is only getting worse. If you think any of the last few governors have done anything to change this, you are very easily impressed. Masloff and Murphy were absolute total disasters and national laughingstocks who were reelected easily by the stupid electorate. It's obvious that when someone in Pittsburgh registers to vote as a Democrat, much of their cerebral cortex is removed at the same time.


Wasn't Jim Roddey the first Allegheny County Executive?

Thornburg and Ridge were both Republicans, so what's your point?
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Postby lauren on Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:41 pm

jimjom wrote:I may be late or missing out on something posted already (if so I apologize), but Gov. Pigface was also interviewed briefly on the news last night, 11 PM, KDKA expressing said bewilderment and talking about how he and other pols couldn't talk with the Pens due to their agreement with IoC.


I watched that as well...he spoke as if everything was the penguins fault and as if he has been trying for years to get something done (which is just not true). I can't listen to the man anymore...I just get so irritated by him! :evil:
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Postby DayWalker on Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:25 am

bill from turtle creek wrote:But, one can make the claim that a "multi-purpose" arena is a different kettle of fish than a stadium.

However, if I were Lemieux and Burkle, I'd pony up the money (Burkle can surely afford it) and drive a hard bargain about having the ability to fully run the arena for all nights of the year. Properly run, that should provide them a big return on investment. Then they've turned the whole thing around on the politicians.


I just don't see how remaining in Pittsburgh is in the interests of Lemieux/Burkle/whomever owns the team if they are asked to foot, say, 1/3 of the arena costs (an estimated $90 million), especially when there are new arenas with plum deals to be had elsewhere.

One can only hope that the NHL precludes the Penguins from moving if such a scenario were to come to pass. I am just not sure that the NHL will...
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Postby Zscout on Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:50 am

Ben Klingston wrote:
It's not necessarily whether they can make more profit long-term in another city. It's about whether they can swallow at least a few more years of non-existent Mellon Arena profit, until a new arena is built. That's assuming that a Plan B is definitely finalized before they have an opportunity to move. Tough to expect them to turn down offers to move with a Plan B still a 'maybe'.


The team is for sale. The value of the the team has a lot to do with the arena situation. Lemieux has an opportunity to reap a huge profit on this gutted franchise.
The team will reap the most return, if it is sold as a free agent franchise. No arena ties. That would give the new ownership the ability to shop the team to the city that offers the best deal. Or it gives a billionaire a chance to bring a franchise to his/her locale.
The team will reap a decent return if sold with casino ties and stays in Pittsburgh.
The team will bring in a modest return with a public arena deal, in fact, it may still not be profitable. It would also be tough to find an owner that would buy the team under these conditions.
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Postby bill from turtle creek on Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:56 am

[Wasn't Jim Roddey the first Allegheny County Executive?

Thornburg and Ridge were both Republicans, so what's your point?[/quote



I couldn't care less about every party affiliation. A loser politician is a loser politician. Governors in PA routinely switch off parties every 8 yrs; local officials around here are all Democrat. Nevertheless, most of them have turned out to be horrible choices.

Perhaps you feel differently, but I don't think too many people will make the case that this region is now better off than it was 10, 20, or 30 yrs ago.

So the point is, this area has a history of electing the wrong people.
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Postby Draftnik on Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:05 pm

Zscout wrote:
Ben Klingston wrote:
It's not necessarily whether they can make more profit long-term in another city. It's about whether they can swallow at least a few more years of non-existent Mellon Arena profit, until a new arena is built. That's assuming that a Plan B is definitely finalized before they have an opportunity to move. Tough to expect them to turn down offers to move with a Plan B still a 'maybe'.


The team is for sale. The value of the the team has a lot to do with the arena situation. Lemieux has an opportunity to reap a huge profit on this gutted franchise.
The team will reap the most return, if it is sold as a free agent franchise. No arena ties. That would give the new ownership the ability to shop the team to the city that offers the best deal. Or it gives a billionaire a chance to bring a franchise to his/her locale.
The team will reap a decent return if sold with casino ties and stays in Pittsburgh.
The team will bring in a modest return with a public arena deal, in fact, it may still not be profitable. It would also be tough to find an owner that would buy the team under these conditions.



You are a nonstop fountain of nonsense. Pittsburgh is the only city, IoC, Plan B, etc that will give the Pens the ability to run an arena so they can make $$$ off 200 dates, most of them non-hockey events. The Pens will lease the arena for a flat fee and control every single revenue stream.

KC will be controlled by AEG. Portland is controlled by the group that bought the Rose Garden bonds. Houston is already controlled by Alexander. Name one arena that will give the Pens total control of all revenue streams besides Pittsburgh. Name one market with legitimate hockey ratings that will give the Pens as good of an RSN deal ($10M) as they get in Pittsburgh.
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Postby HomerPenguin on Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:51 pm

Draftnik wrote:
Zscout wrote:
Ben Klingston wrote:
It's not necessarily whether they can make more profit long-term in another city. It's about whether they can swallow at least a few more years of non-existent Mellon Arena profit, until a new arena is built. That's assuming that a Plan B is definitely finalized before they have an opportunity to move. Tough to expect them to turn down offers to move with a Plan B still a 'maybe'.


The team is for sale. The value of the the team has a lot to do with the arena situation. Lemieux has an opportunity to reap a huge profit on this gutted franchise.
The team will reap the most return, if it is sold as a free agent franchise. No arena ties. That would give the new ownership the ability to shop the team to the city that offers the best deal. Or it gives a billionaire a chance to bring a franchise to his/her locale.
The team will reap a decent return if sold with casino ties and stays in Pittsburgh.
The team will bring in a modest return with a public arena deal, in fact, it may still not be profitable. It would also be tough to find an owner that would buy the team under these conditions.



You are a nonstop fountain of nonsense. Pittsburgh is the only city, IoC, Plan B, etc that will give the Pens the ability to run an arena so they can make $$$ off 200 dates, most of them non-hockey events. The Pens will lease the arena for a flat fee and control every single revenue stream.

KC will be controlled by AEG. Portland is controlled by the group that bought the Rose Garden bonds. Houston is already controlled by Alexander. Name one arena that will give the Pens total control of all revenue streams besides Pittsburgh. Name one market with legitimate hockey ratings that will give the Pens as good of an RSN deal ($10M) as they get in Pittsburgh.


BUT! BUT! Don't you see?

Rendell = savior and possibly greatest human being in recorded history
Lemieux = devil

For Zscout, all the facts are nonsense if they don't conform to those two points.
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