My newest theory.....

[bill from turtle creek]

Folks:

Is it possible that Rendell and OConnor et al are now pressuring the Pens to talk because they WANT them to jettison the Isle of Capri, ruining that plan, and therefore clearing the way even more for the Forest City plan? This came to me as I was listening to O'Connor ramble on stupidly.

It makes sense, doesn't it? They exert pressure both politically and from a public relations point of view to get the Pens to talk to them. This makes the Capri deal no longer as attractive if the Pens are detached from it. They try to put the Pens into a position whereby they have no choice but to talk to them, and Lemieux and company feel like they are between a rock and a hard place.

In return, Harrahs/Forest City agree quietly to cover any legal issues that arise from the Pens actions; they'll certainly be able to afford it. Rendell gets political cover, Onorato and OConnor are happy, the city gets an arena. The only loser in this scenario in the minds of the polticos is Capri, who they desperately want to have go away anyhow.

Thoughts?

[penny lane]

like getting Harrahs to cover cost of new arena & some development.
Otherwise all the good people in pittsburgh will hear is Plan B! Dirty words... They are only slowing getting "free" new building but they
long remember Plan B. from PNC & Heinz field.

We'll have to see how Stan approaches the Mayor.

[Draftnik]

Folks:

Is it possible that Rendell and OConnor et al are now pressuring the Pens to talk because they WANT them to jettison the Isle of Capri, ruining that plan, and therefore clearing the way even more for the Forest City plan? This came to me as I was listening to O'Connor ramble on stupidly.

It makes sense, doesn't it? They exert pressure both politically and from a public relations point of view to get the Pens to talk to them. This makes the Capri deal no longer as attractive if the Pens are detached from it. They try to put the Pens into a position whereby they have no choice but to talk to them, and Lemieux and company feel like they are between a rock and a hard place.

In return, Harrahs/Forest City agree quietly to cover any legal issues that arise from the Pens actions; they'll certainly be able to afford it. Rendell gets political cover, Onorato and OConnor are happy, the city gets an arena. The only loser in this scenario in the minds of the polticos is Capri, who they desperately want to have go away anyhow.

Thoughts?

This is plausible. I'd assume IoC has an ironclad contract with the Pens, so who knows. I'm at home right now and don't have the Pgh Bus Times in front of me, but if I remember correctly IoC had a bond rating of BB- or something like that. It is a negative rating. Harrah's was BBB which is a solid or neutral rating at worst. The other guy was B+ or something like that which is the worst of the 3. The whole casino issue will boil down to these ratings because there is no way IoC can fund and arena and a new casino based on their current financial status. Unless they have some mystery white knight out there with deep pockets and/or borrowing capacity their bid is doomed.

[bill from turtle creek]

That bond rating stuff is pretty important info if true; I wonder if the mayor and governor know of that? Can't believe that they wouldn't have used that ammo if they had it.

In truth, if you are correct, then it's probably imperative that the Pens do indeed do some backroom negotiating.

As well, if your numbers and conclusion are accurate, then the Pens did not do their homework when they joined up with Capri.

[NIN]

OH definately! Just listen to these guys speak. They cannot bring themselves to say anything positive about the Penguins plan! HE ACTUALLY MADE IT A POINT TO MENTION SOME OF THE PROPOSED POSITIVE EFFECTS OF THE HURRAY (not a typo) PLAN!!!

Yet they wont even mention the Penguins plan as being......swell.....or even.....ok...It is SOOOOOoooooo obvious that these guys are getting paid under the table and they have NO SHAME! Yes folks in a world where you grow up in that is BUILT on corruption and GREED there really is no reason to deny who your leaders are. They are snakes.

They waited 2 years to even get this process going. WHY? They say there is no support from the local politicians and NOW there is "support"? WHY NOW?

[MrKnowNothing]

OConnor's interview with Benz suggests to me that they are trying to turn this BS back on the Pens. The Pens followed what the politicians said, and now they are essentially slapping them in the face. It is clear that there is more to this story than is being said. I've been skeptical of saying that the fix is in, but I fail to see how the Isle of Capri plan can be beaten. Maybe the other one offers some property tax relief, but I'd rather take the free arena now than some short relief on property taces followed by a tax in the future for an arena without the Pens.

Bottom line is that the Penguins have followed exactly what this lying sacks of **** have said to do, and they still are recieiving NO COOPERATION WHATSOEVER from these idiots. Now it seems like they are trying to force the Penguins out of this Isle of Capri proposal that they have worked to set up. All of a sudden public money has appeared from the sky for the Penguins, when it wasn't present before, the Penguins were told this, and took every step neccessary to come up with a way to fund it privately.

Maybe someone else dropped a bribe on these slimeballs and that's where this money has appeared from.

If I were the Pens I would tell them that they can accept my Isle of Capri proposal or they can shove their Plan B up their *****. These politicians should have been willing to work out another option a long time ago, not now when it is too late for the Pens to do anything else but back the Isle of Capri proposal. They were basically told to hinge all their hopes on the slots proposal, and now this is the first we are hearing of this garbage about Plan B.

This has just entered beyond ridiculous. Look at all the quotes from politicians over the past year or so and see that the Pens have followed what they have said to the T. This is a pathetic showing by Onorato and O'Connor and they better not be allowed to get away with it. The fix is in. All of these people want the license to go to the other group and not Isle of Capri, and now that it is coming down to the wire, they realze that the don't want to have the Pens leave on their watch, so they are coming up with what they apparently couldn't do just a few months ago.

I hope the Pens just stick it to them.

[dboss]

Folks:

Is it possible that Rendell and OConnor et al are now pressuring the Pens to talk because they WANT them to jettison the Isle of Capri, ruining that plan, and therefore clearing the way even more for the Forest City plan? This came to me as I was listening to O'Connor ramble on stupidly.

It makes sense, doesn't it? They exert pressure both politically and from a public relations point of view to get the Pens to talk to them. This makes the Capri deal no longer as attractive if the Pens are detached from it. They try to put the Pens into a position whereby they have no choice but to talk to them, and Lemieux and company feel like they are between a rock and a hard place.

In return, Harrahs/Forest City agree quietly to cover any legal issues that arise from the Pens actions; they'll certainly be able to afford it. Rendell gets political cover, Onorato and OConnor are happy, the city gets an arena. The only loser in this scenario in the minds of the polticos is Capri, who they desperately want to have go away anyhow.

Thoughts?

This is plausible. I'd assume IoC has an ironclad contract with the Pens, so who knows. I'm at home right now and don't have the Pgh Bus Times in front of me, but if I remember correctly IoC had a bond rating of BB- or something like that. It is a negative rating. Harrah's was BBB which is a solid or neutral rating at worst. The other guy was B+ or something like that which is the worst of the 3. The whole casino issue will boil down to these ratings because there is no way IoC can fund and arena and a new casino based on their current financial status. Unless they have some mystery white knight out there with deep pockets and/or borrowing capacity their bid is doomed.

I'm sorry, but at this point this means very little. IoC's funding for the arena is already underwritten by a large Canadian bank, (CSBC? Sorry, can't remember the name) so once they would be awarded the slots license the Pens get a check for $290 million. Also, IoC is large enough that they aren't going out of business anytime soon so once the casino would be built that is the last thing anyone should worry about with IoC. The casino actually being profitable in this region would be a more pressing concern, but there is NO indication that is even a worry.

All of this information is just a ploy and reasons Rendell and O'Connor will give for IoC to not get the slots license. I left Onorato out of this, because I think he is the one that may actually be able to get this done. I say this for two reasons:

1) He is not truly a member of this 'old guard' of democratics that has a strangle hold on Pittsburgh politics. He is younger and has more insight to the problems Pittsburgh faces.
2) He is up for re-election in 20? months. So if the Pens DO leave it will have happened about 4 - 6 months before the November election. Also the decision for them to leave would have even been made before that which could give him a potential challenge going into the primaries.

Obviously #2 is the biggest reason of the two and to be honest is great timing for the Pens because if the Pens leave it will have been on Onorato's watch and he will the first one up for re-election that someone can blame. I think Onorato realizes that at this point. Any thoughts?

[NIN]

[quote="MrKnowNothing"]. Maybe the other one offers some property tax relief, but I'd rather take the free arena now than some short relief on property taces followed by a tax in the future for an arena without the Pens.
quote]

My friend there is no "additional" property tax releif. This is a blatant lie that NOBODY has recognised or challenged these guys on. Randells property tax relaif begins with a set sum of money that will take no more or less from any of the applicants. From there the plan gets complicated BUT THAT IS IT as far as slots money is concerned. The Pittsburgh First plan easily covers the amount that is required as does the other two. This PHONEY "additional" releif is going to go to other things that Randell has over budgeted for!!

If anybody disputes this then I dare you to check into it yourself. It's all in the press.

[NIN]

My friend there is no "additional" property tax releif. This is a blatant lie that NOBODY has recognised or challenged these guys on. Randells property tax relaif begins with a set sum of money that will take no more or less from any of the applicants. From there the plan gets complicated BUT THAT IS IT as far as slots money is concerned. The Pittsburgh First plan easily covers the amount that is required as does the other two. This PHONEY "additional" releif is going to go to other things that Randell has over budgeted for!!

If anybody disputes this then I dare you to check into it yourself. It's all in the press.

Furthermore the school systems in western PA DO NOT WANT Randells gambling money. They don't trust him anymore than you or I and for good reason. He wont come through with it. Randell will "delay and redirect" that "additional" money into various other "projects" that will line his pockets with gold.

[dboss]

My friend there is no "additional" property tax releif. This is a blatant lie that NOBODY has recognised or challenged these guys on. Randells property tax relaif begins with a set sum of money that will take no more or less from any of the applicants. From there the plan gets complicated BUT THAT IS IT as far as slots money is concerned. The Pittsburgh First plan easily covers the amount that is required as does the other two. This PHONEY "additional" releif is going to go to other things that Randell has over budgeted for!!

If anybody disputes this then I dare you to check into it yourself. It's all in the press.

Furthermore the school systems in western PA DO NOT WANT Randells gambling money. They don't trust him anymore than you or I and for good reason. He wont come through with it. Randell will "delay and redirect" that "additional" money into various other "projects" that will line his pockets with gold.

Are you saying that the $400, AT MOST, that taxes are supposed to be lowered by is not true property tax relief??? I beg to differ. I would be able to take that $400 and gamble it away at Mr. Rendell's new casino, sorry, HURRAY'S new casino Now THAT is true entertainment!

[Draftnik]

I'm sorry, but at this point this means very little. IoC's funding for the arena is already underwritten by a large Canadian bank, (CSBC? Sorry, can't remember the name) so once they would be awarded the slots license the Pens get a check for $290 million. Also, IoC is large enough that they aren't going out of business anytime soon so once the casino would be built that is the last thing anyone should worry about with IoC. The casino actually being profitable in this region would be a more pressing concern, but there is NO indication that is even a worry.

All of this information is just a ploy and reasons Rendell and O'Connor will give for IoC to not get the slots license. I left Onorato out of this, because I think he is the one that may actually be able to get this done. I say this for two reasons:

1) He is not truly a member of this 'old guard' of democratics that has a strangle hold on Pittsburgh politics. He is younger and has more insight to the problems Pittsburgh faces.
2) He is up for re-election in 20? months. So if the Pens DO leave it will have happened about 4 - 6 months before the November election. Also the decision for them to leave would have even been made before that which could give him a potential challenge going into the primaries.

Obviously #2 is the biggest reason of the two and to be honest is great timing for the Pens because if the Pens leave it will have been on Onorato's watch and he will the first one up for re-election that someone can blame. I think Onorato realizes that at this point. Any thoughts?

Most likely CIBC. I do recall hearing that as well. The PBT article said they had about $400M credit remaining to tap into as of 10/05. This will become a factor at some point. Their cost of borrowing will be much higher than Harrahs and will be a huge factor in the cost of any project they undertake because they have to float junk grade debt. Their debt to equity ratio is almost 5. There will be concerns about their viability as a continuing entity. Going out of business and generating enough cash flow to meet their debt obligations are two different things. That is why there is bankruptcy. Beyond their current financial picture which looks less than perfect they would be undertaking more substantial debt with a big lag in the time it would take them to recognize substantial revenues.

[NIN]

I'm sorry, but at this point this means very little. IoC's funding for the arena is already underwritten by a large Canadian bank, (CSBC? Sorry, can't remember the name) so once they would be awarded the slots license the Pens get a check for $290 million. Also, IoC is large enough that they aren't going out of business anytime soon so once the casino would be built that is the last thing anyone should worry about with IoC. The casino actually being profitable in this region would be a more pressing concern, but there is NO indication that is even a worry.

All of this information is just a ploy and reasons Rendell and O'Connor will give for IoC to not get the slots license. I left Onorato out of this, because I think he is the one that may actually be able to get this done. I say this for two reasons:


1) He is not truly a member of this 'old guard' of democratics that has a strangle hold on Pittsburgh politics. He is younger and has more insight to the problems Pittsburgh faces.
2) He is up for re-election in 20? months. So if the Pens DO leave it will have happened about 4 - 6 months before the November election. Also the decision for them to leave would have even been made before that which could give him a potential challenge going into the primaries.

Obviously #2 is the biggest reason of the two and to be honest is great timing for the Pens because if the Pens leave it will have been on Onorato's watch and he will the first one up for re-election that someone can blame. I think Onorato realizes that at this point. Any thoughts?

Most likely CIBC. I do recall hearing that as well. The PBT article said they had about $400M credit remaining to tap into as of 10/05. This will become a factor at some point. Their cost of borrowing will be much higher than Harrahs and will be a huge factor in the cost of any project they undertake because they have to float junk grade debt. Their debt to equity ratio is almost 5. There will be concerns about their viability as a continuing entity. Going out of business and generating enough cash flow to meet their debt obligations are two different things. That is why there is bankruptcy. Beyond their current financial picture which looks less than perfect they would be undertaking more substantial debt with a big lag in the time it would take them to recognize substantial revenues.

Dude...you lost me at "CIBC".