KDKA Radio says losing a sports team doesn't cost a city $$$

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KDKA Radio says losing a sports team doesn't cost a city $$$

Postby dboss on Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:01 pm

KDKA Radio is having a professor on with Fred Honsberger today who is supposedly going to say that losing a sports team does NOT cost a city any money. He is on from 2pm - 6pm on KDKA.
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Re: KDKA Radio says losing a sports team doesn't cost a city

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:09 pm

dboss wrote:KDKA Radio is having a professor on with Fred Honsberger today who is supposedly going to say that losing a sports team does NOT cost a city any money. He is on from 2pm - 6pm on KDKA.


This should be a good one. Losing a business isn't bad for the city, if and only if, that business is a sports franchise.

I guess the Steelers didn't generate any revenue for the city this year? I guess the city won't benefit from the All-Star game this year...

... Geeze, where does this guy teach? Mickey Mouse University?
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Postby plasticbratt on Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:12 pm

Ask some of the Pittsburgh businesses who just endured the lockout how they feel about this.



Pathetic.
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Postby bill from turtle creek on Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:16 pm

I don't really understand why Honsberger WANTS to justify losing a team. Doesn't make sense. If they want to live in a lesser metropolitan area, let him move to Clarion.
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Postby plasticbratt on Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:27 pm

Does "Honsman" ever make sense?
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Postby dboss on Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:29 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:I don't really understand why Honsberger WANTS to justify losing a team. Doesn't make sense. If they want to live in a lesser metropolitan area, let him move to Clarion.


KDKA Radio is catering to their ratings base, mostly older people who don't want any sort of change. Here is the link to Honsberger's main page, there is also a link to listen online in the top right corner:
http://kdkaradio.com/honzman.shtml
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:49 pm

The KDKA website has an opinion poll which states:

KDKA Opinion Polls
Should tax dollars be used to help build the Penguins a new arena?
Yes
No


I sent them the following email:

You're being disingenuous with your on-line poll.

It's not tax money for a Penguins Arena.

It's a multi-purpose Arena which will be used by the Pens less than 50% of the time (Unlike PNC Park - Pirates or Heinz field - Steelers)

See what answers you get if you change the question to:

"Should the Pens use private money to wholey fund a multi-purpose Arena for the Pittsburgh Area"?

This is exactly what they are proposing to do through their association with IoC.
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:25 pm

Hansbergers response:

I'm not talking about the Pens plan...I'm talking about PLAN B that a half dozen politicians are rushing to put together in case the Isle of Capri plan is not approved. I explained this on my radio show

Fred Honsberger
2-6 PM Host
KDKA Radio
1 Gateway Center
Pittsburgh, PA 15222
www.honzman.com

He fails to address the issue that it's not a "Pens Arena" but a "Multi-purpose Arena for Pittsburgh"

He also doesn't address the logic of asking the valid question I proposed.
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Postby Bowser on Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:26 pm

Appears KDKA tv and KDKA radio have taken sides in the arena process. You've got the sports department, Andy Sheehan and a few others investigating the 3 Amigos... but KDKA radio two main time slots have two of the biggest non-IOC plan backers like Fred "I'm too lazy to exercise so I got my stomach stapled" Honsberger and Marty "I look like a fake" Griffin.
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Postby bill from turtle creek on Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:34 pm

Maybe Griffin is actually the the part of Honsberger that sloughed off after the gastric bypass?
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Postby Guido on Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:42 pm

could someone please post a summary of this show and comments, I've got class during the show. Rip this 'professor' a new one....

I'm sure the Steelers Super Bowl run and eventual victory didn't bring money to the city, what a moron.
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Re: KDKA Radio says losing a sports team doesn't cost a city

Postby spoon on Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:00 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:... Geeze, where does this guy teach? Mickey Mouse University?


i'd bet on Duquesne :lol:
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Postby dman66 on Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:10 pm

ok, i take sports management at rmu, and my one professor talks about this all the time. this is what im gonna guess the economist is gonna say. sports teams do not have the ability to help economic growth. what this means is that sports teams don't attract new money into the area, they take existing money that people would use in other places still in the area. therefore, sports teams are only economically active. take the steelers for example. how did that help the region? it didnt, they did not have one home game, the steelers fans that traveled to cincy, indy, denver and detroit all helped out there. as for all the money spent on steeler merchandise, the economist will say its just activity, because if you didnt buy the shirt, hat, or whatever, you would have spent the money on something else.

thats probably what he'll say, but what he wont take into account is the fact that sports teams help tourism, morale, and things that are within the area they play. plus, theres the perception of the city. economists only like to deal with numbers, so anything they can't quantify they ignore.
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Postby netwolf on Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:12 pm

Fred Honsberger wrote:I'm not talking about the Pens plan...I'm talking about PLAN B that a half dozen politicians are rushing to put together in case the Isle of Capri plan is not approved. I explained this on my radio show.


If that's indeed his true purpose, then why not make the driving point to get behind the IoC plan, or at least to pressure local politicians and the gaming board to make arena funding a requirement for the license?

I do not listen to his show and I have not heard any of the spots. If he is going to address this Plan B (which is actually more like E or F at this point), he needs to make it VERY clear that the Penguins are not asking for a cent of tax money. They were told no money was available and made other arrangements. The local politicians' "Plan B" was their idea, their initiative. The Pens moved on a long time ago.

I have a feeling Joe Public will hear this and think the Pens want tax money though. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it...
Last edited by netwolf on Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby plasticbratt on Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:14 pm

ok, i take sports management at rmu, and my one professor talks about this all the time. this is what im gonna guess the economist is gonna say. sports teams do not have the ability to help economic growth. what this means is that sports teams don't attract new money into the area, they take existing money that people would use in other places still in the area. therefore, sports teams are only economically active. take the steelers for example. how did that help the region? it didnt, they did not have one home game, the steelers fans that traveled to cincy, indy, denver and detroit all helped out there. as for all the money spent on steeler merchandise, the economist will say its just activity, because if you didnt buy the shirt, hat, or whatever, you would have spent the money on something else.

thats probably what he'll say, but what he wont take into account is the fact that sports teams help tourism, morale, and things that are within the area they play. plus, theres the perception of the city. economists only like to deal with numbers, so anything they can't quantify they ignore.



But I have to think there ARE emperical numbers to be pointed out. Do we really believe that the thousands of people who attend games or sports related celebrations all reside here in this region? And in any case, the businesses in A. County and the city of Pittsburgh depend on such draws to bring in money from the surrounding suburbs, etc. in order to exist.
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Postby dman66 on Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:17 pm

plasticbratt wrote:
ok, i take sports management at rmu, and my one professor talks about this all the time. this is what im gonna guess the economist is gonna say. sports teams do not have the ability to help economic growth. what this means is that sports teams don't attract new money into the area, they take existing money that people would use in other places still in the area. therefore, sports teams are only economically active. take the steelers for example. how did that help the region? it didnt, they did not have one home game, the steelers fans that traveled to cincy, indy, denver and detroit all helped out there. as for all the money spent on steeler merchandise, the economist will say its just activity, because if you didnt buy the shirt, hat, or whatever, you would have spent the money on something else.

thats probably what he'll say, but what he wont take into account is the fact that sports teams help tourism, morale, and things that are within the area they play. plus, theres the perception of the city. economists only like to deal with numbers, so anything they can't quantify they ignore.



But I have to think there ARE emperical numbers to be pointed out. Do we really believe that the thousands of people who attend games or sports related celebrations all reside here in this region? And in any case, the businesses in A. County and the city of Pittsburgh depend on such draws to bring in money from the surrounding suburbs, etc. in order to exist.


there probably are, im just saying that thats what he's gonna say. i remember dejan always saying in the q and a's that some economist had said something along those lines and he ripped him.
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Postby netwolf on Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:21 pm

As someone said earlier, tell this professor to go talk to the business owners that bled red ink or went out of business altogether during the lockout. Tell him or her to go talk to people that used to work in those businesses that had to go and find other jobs. Then go talk to Dan Onorato, who's said many times that he knows how much money the city lost by not having the Penguins in operation last season.

Then come back and explain to me how the loss of a major league sports team doesn't cost they city money. You know you are an idiot when Onorato is one of the people that can blow your stance out of the water. :wink:
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Postby Racer17 on Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:47 pm

What about the amusement tax that goes to the City for every ticket sold? if I go to Chili's in the South Hills instead to spend my money how does that get back to the City?

Don't say the Steelers had no home games so no money was made here. What about all the people that went to bars and restaurants specifically to watch the Steelers? Do you mean to tell me SportsRock and the South Side would be that packed anyways on Sundays?

Are people going to drive downtown and pay $14 to park if the Pens aren't there? That isn't real money lost?

God, give me 5 minutes alone with the Honz. I'll show him!
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:00 pm

dman66 wrote:ok, i take sports management at rmu, and my one professor talks about this all the time.


He needs to be taken to task.

Ask him two questions.

First, Ask him about folks who travel to Pittsburgh just to see the Pens. (We had someone on the old board from NJ who bought a ten game plan - you might still be here, I forgot your name sorry), and there are countless others who travel from all around to see the team.

Second, where did the fans spend their money last year during the lockout. Sure some went to the mall, or took in a concert or play, but many more used that $5000 that they normally spent on season tickets to fund a vacation outside of the area, or on a TV movie package because their weren't NHL games for them to spend their entertainment dollar on.
I want to know how me sending a check every month to Direct TV helped the local Pittsburgh economy?

Your Prof's line of reasoning is flawed. He should be glad he didn;t have me in his class.
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Postby dman66 on Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:33 pm

you wouldnt take him to task during an 8am. its just too early :)
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Postby nirvana2525 on Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:33 pm

When economists talk about the money that is or is not generated by sports teams they are talking about the region as a whole. This is a premise that is similar to shopping malls. When a new mall opens it generates new business for an area but for the region as a whole it has just shifted the money being spent. So whlie it is true that the region would not be economically affected by the Pens leaving, the city and Allegheny county would suffer financial losses because many people who go to games live outside the city and county.

I also agree that there are many things you can't quantify like morale that should be considered. I also think that while the region might not suffer financially, there is a need to have a healthy urban center in any region and Pittsburgh has to regain its vibrancy if the region is ever to be a draw again.
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Postby netwolf on Thu Feb 23, 2006 6:41 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:We had someone on the old board from NJ who bought a ten game plan - you might still be here, I forgot your name sorry


I think you are referring to The SnapShot (aka SnapShot, Snapper, or Snappy). Sadly, he has not been seen since before the move. He was one of the better posters around here.

Snapper, if you're reading this, it's about time to come home, don't you think? 8)
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:11 pm

nirvana2525 wrote:When economists talk about the money that is or is not generated by sports teams they are talking about the region as a whole. This is a premise that is similar to shopping malls. When a new mall opens it generates new business for an area but for the region as a whole it has just shifted the money being spent.


You're right about the underlying premise. The analogy of a new grocery store is best. You'll just shift your spending from one store in the region to another, your overall spending in Pittsburgh for groceries wouldn't change.
NET/NET.

However a sports franchise is totally different. Entertainment options aren't as limited as they were 40 years ago. (See examples in my earlier post).

And I've concentrated solely on economics so far, we haven't even talked about National Exposure or attracting/retaining businesses and workers.
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