BALSILLIE DROPS OUT....UN-F'ING BELIEVABLE....

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Postby netwolf on Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:39 pm

RedLightDistrict wrote:
netwolf wrote:That's not an accurate comparison. If you want to relate it to restaurants, it would be more accurate to say you are buying a McDonald's franchise, and the people at McDonald's corporate HQ tell you what you can and can't do with it. Which they could and would, BTW.

I think you're swinging too far the other way.

I don't. McDonald's has franchises. The NHL has franchises. The corporate level at each governs what the franchises do. The only difference is that the McDonald's employees don't travel to each others' restaurants and engage in cook-offs.

Your example would equate to an NBA, NFL, and/or MLB team telling an NHL team what they can and can't do.
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Postby RedLightDistrict on Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:39 pm

If we can only get 14k against our rival with this fun team, how can Pittsburgh be a solid market regularly?

Bettman is pro USA, not pro-Pittsburgh.
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Postby RedLightDistrict on Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:44 pm

netwolf wrote:
RedLightDistrict wrote:
netwolf wrote:That's not an accurate comparison. If you want to relate it to restaurants, it would be more accurate to say you are buying a McDonald's franchise, and the people at McDonald's corporate HQ tell you what you can and can't do with it. Which they could and would, BTW.

I think you're swinging too far the other way.

I don't. McDonald's has franchises. The NHL has franchises. The corporate level at each governs what the franchises do. The only difference is that the McDonald's employees don't travel to each others' restaurants and engage in cook-offs.

Your example would equate to an NBA, NFL, and/or MLB team telling an NHL team what they can and can't do.


NHL HQ isn't corporate. The 30 franchises ban together to hire Bettman. Bettman WORKS FOR the 30 owners. The 30 franchise owners do not work for Bettman -- that would be the analagous situation to NHL franchises being like McDonald's franchises.

And remember Al Davis won a lawsuit against the NFL to move his team. He proved the NFL was violating anti-trust laws whereby business were colluding to stifle competition. That's EXACTLY what's going on here. JB has less legal standing since he doesn't own the team like Al Davis did.

Only baseball because they have a Congressional anti-trust exemption has strong powers for franchises to dictate behaviors to other franchises.
The NHL has a gentleman's agreement to, but it may not stand up to challenge. And why? Because your analogy to franchises under corporate is completely backwards.
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Postby Ron` on Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:44 pm

RedLightDistrict wrote:If we can only get 14k against our rival with this fun team, how can Pittsburgh be a solid market regularly?

Bettman is pro USA, not pro-Pittsburgh.
Facts pre holidays, mid week night, college finals going on. That type of draw is not unusual I would think.
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Postby netwolf on Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:44 pm

RedLightDistrict wrote:If we can only get 14k against our rival with this fun team, how can Pittsburgh be a solid market regularly?

Bettman is pro USA, not pro-Pittsburgh.

One game in the middle of the week against a lousy Philly team does not indicate anything about this city's viability as a hockey town.

Besides, they were sold out tonight. Pittsburgh is a very solid hockey market and Bettman knows it.
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Postby Draftnik on Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:49 pm

RedLightDistrict wrote:If we can only get 14k against our rival with this fun team, how can Pittsburgh be a solid market regularly?

Bettman is pro USA, not pro-Pittsburgh.


Where is the viable USA market with a free arena? The KC deal isn't because AEG invested $50M (2007$$) into Sprint Center. The $128M figure floated for Plan B isn't in 2007 $$$ so it is much closer to $50M than you think. You also have no proof Bettman isn't pro Pittsburgh. If he is only pro USA the NHL could have put terms on Balsillie's purchase about moving the team to Canada, but none to other US cities. The reality of arena economics dictates the primary pro sports tenant controlling all the revenue streams for all the events. There isn't a building out there right now that can offer that.

If Les Alexander wanted to buy the Pens and add 41 dates to Toyota Center I'm sure Bettman would be interested, but if you look at how Pittsburgh performs with TV ratings and at the gate relative to Atlanta, Washington, Florida, Arizona, even Anaheim which can't sell out with the best team in the NHL there is no reason Bettman wants to leave this market. There are very few US markets better than this one.
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Postby Guins on Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:52 pm

If anyone wants to email Mark Cuban his email is markcuban@dallasmavs.com
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Postby Draftnik on Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:53 pm

RedLightDistrict wrote:NHL HQ isn't corporate. The 30 franchises ban together to hire Bettman. Bettman WORKS FOR the 30 owners. The 30 franchise owners do not work for Bettman -- that would be the analagous situation to NHL franchises being like McDonald's franchises.

And remember Al Davis won a lawsuit against the NFL to move his team. He proved the NFL was violating anti-trust laws whereby business were colluding to stifle competition. That's EXACTLY what's going on here. JB has less legal standing since he doesn't own the team like Al Davis did.

Only baseball because they have a Congressional anti-trust exemption has strong powers for franchises to dictate behaviors to other franchises.
The NHL has a gentleman's agreement to, but it may not stand up to challenge. And why? Because your analogy to franchises under corporate is completely backwards.


The NHL holds the hammer. They gave JB a sheet with LEGALLY binding terms under which he could purchase the Pens. The NHL will make any potential owner sign away their rights to pull an Al Davis.
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Postby RedLightDistrict on Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:54 pm

Draftnik wrote:There are very few US markets better than this one.


Agree. Which is why maybe another team in Canada would be good for hockey & good for the league.
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Postby Hockeynut! on Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:54 pm

RedLightDistrict wrote:Because your analogy to franchises under corporate is completely backwards.


It's not at all backwards. You can't buy an NHL franchise without the approval of the NHL just like you can't buy a McDonald's franchise without the approval of McDonald's.

The NHL is working entirely within it's rights to dictate sales terms to a potential buyer. That doesn't have anything to do with anti-trust laws, those only apply once you own the team.

When you're buying into a "club", you abide by their rules. It's like the rich people who live in gated communities and say your trashcan can only be black. By your reasoning, Joe Smith who is thinking about buying a team has the right to say "I disagree with that, I want a green trashcan" They'd turn him away unless he agreed to their terms.
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Postby RedLightDistrict on Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:57 pm

Draftnik wrote:
The NHL holds the hammer. They gave JB a sheet with LEGALLY binding terms under which he could purchase the Pens. The NHL will make any potential owner sign away their rights to pull an Al Davis.


Which demonstrates you don't understand anti-trust laws. JB just realized it's not worth the hassle to deal with people who are anti-business.

It's sort of the same reason Pgh, Allegheny County, and PA are all loosing residents -- because it's harder to do business here than most places.

It's the NHL shooting themselves in the foot the same way this state & city has for years. Sort of ironic.
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Postby Draftnik on Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:00 am

RedLightDistrict wrote:
Draftnik wrote:There are very few US markets better than this one.


Agree. Which is why maybe another team in Canada would be good for hockey & good for the league.


I agree with that, but as I said to CP2 a few weeks ago the best case for that happening is for the NHL to award an expansion franchise to Toronto. They could probably charge ~ 150M for the team and $100M to MLSE for market indemnification. That would put a $250M valuation on the team and all owners would get a taste of the $$$.

It makes no sense for MLSE to let a franchise with Crosby move into their market. He would strip away many current Leafs fans and an entire generation of future fans.
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Postby Draftnik on Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:04 am

RedLightDistrict wrote:
Draftnik wrote:
The NHL holds the hammer. They gave JB a sheet with LEGALLY binding terms under which he could purchase the Pens. The NHL will make any potential owner sign away their rights to pull an Al Davis.


Which demonstrates you don't understand anti-trust laws. JB just realized it's not worth the hassle to deal with people who are anti-business.

It's sort of the same reason Pgh, Allegheny County, and PA are all loosing residents -- because it's harder to do business here than most places.

It's the NHL shooting themselves in the foot the same way this state & city has for years. Sort of ironic.


I understand anti-trust laws. I also understand why the NHL would not let a guy into their league that would sue them. I also understand why 29 other NHL owners would not let JB purchase the Pens and move them to Toronto when the value of a 2nd Toronto team is worth much more than $175M and none of the other owners would get a taste of the value of a 2nd Toronto team. The argument that all owners would benefit from the Pens appreciation if they moved to Toronto is wrong because a Toronto franchise has market characteristics that are not comparable to all the other markets.
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Postby CP2 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:24 am

What did I miss today?

:D


It's been a busy day. Phone's been ringing off the hook.

Bettman screwed this deal up.

This is the best thing that could have happened for Pittsburgh. The Lemieux Group may not get the price they wanted but this team is NOT going to move....
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Postby Draftnik on Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:28 am

CP2 wrote:Bettman screwed this deal up.



How did Bettman screw it up? Selling the franchise before the arena situation was clarified only made sense for the Lemieux Group LLP.
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Postby pens#1 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:30 am

cp2 betman did not screw anything up! if nothing else he is being proactive to keep the pens in Pittsburgh
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Postby Stoosh on Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:31 am

If we can only get 14k against our rival with this fun team, how can Pittsburgh be a solid market regularly?

Bettman is pro USA, not pro-Pittsburgh.


Without sounding like I'm piling on here, RLD, I'm going to add a little to what Draftnik said because I think he's dead-on with his response to your post above.

By comparison, this market has done very well at the gate, all things considered. You can't look at one isolated game. According to the attendance figures shown on their schedule page on ESPN.com, Pittsburgh is averaging 15,613 fans per game, including tonight (265,424 fans over 17 home games). I believe 17,132 is considered a standing-room-only sellout, so the Pens are playing to 91% capacity this season.

Boston is a more traditional hockey market than Pittsburgh, and they aren't even pulling 14,000 fans a night in their building (223,413 in 16 home games). By comparison, TD Banknorth Garden seats 17,565 for hockey. That equates to just about 79-80% capacity. You could argue the only US hockey market stronger than Boston is St. Paul, Minnesota.

It's just one comparison, but that says a lot about the strength of this market at the gate. Is it perfect? No, but as Draftnik said, very few US markets are, and that has to be a consideration for the NHL.
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Postby Hawkeynut on Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:40 am

Who cares of what ownership group wins this gem of a hockey team.

The NHL is behind them staying put. 3 cheers to the BOG.. they are doing something good for a change.
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Postby CKA24 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:43 am

RedLightDistrict wrote:If we can only get 14k against our rival with this fun team, how can Pittsburgh be a solid market regularly?

Bettman is pro USA, not pro-Pittsburgh.


I don't know if you've noticed, but we haven't exactly won a lot in the last, oh, five or so years. People are starting to recognize the greatness of the Pens, but to an outsider, the Pens still suck and have a bit more young testosterone.

I know of people who A.) Didn't know the team was for sale B.) Didn't know that the team might move C.) Didn't know that the Pens chances in Pittsburgh rode on a decision that comes this Wednesday or D.) Thought the penguins were in last place.

Currently the market is saturated by the SuperBowl XL Steelers craze (I know, a bit late eh?). The Pens have to keep pushing and winning. As this happens, more and more people will know, media will cover them, and they'll sell out games.
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JB's 2 cents

Postby gruntov on Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:00 am

The big news in Pittsburgh today was Jim Balsille's decision to pull out of his bid to buy the parent club. I'm not really in the loop on this issue, but I have been told this wasn't as big a shock for those in the know as it was for the average fan. Apparently, the NHL and Balsille have been at odds for a few days now.

What it boils down to, as far as I can tell, is this: Balsille wanted to have the right to decide whether Plan B was acceptable or not. The NHL wants to be the one making that call. The result was an impasse that couldn't be resolved.

To me, this news makes it much more likely the Penguins stay in Pittsburgh, regardless of who gets the slots license this week. If any prospective owner is planning to buy the team and then move it, he found out today that he's going to have to battle the NHL to do so.

Bye for now.

http://emedia.citizensvoice.com/Penguin ... fault.aspx
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Re: re:

Postby Corban87 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:07 am

deweyi wrote:BOTTOM LINE:

Cueball Canadian a-hole was looking for a weak team to buy and move to his $hitehole town and when the NHL said, "Not so fast," he withdrew and went back on the prowl for someone new.

good riddance, a-hole



Great 1st post!!!


*claps hands*
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Postby Guido on Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:15 am

To me, Balsillie's backing out is good news. He's been subject to 'is he for real?' questions since he entered this process, and for good reason. Now that he is out, you would hope that a new ownership group...possibly Cuban and Renacci...can stand up and shoot down all of these relocation rumors and fears.

The only worry I have over this development is that Balsillie knows that the fix is in-which he may. This worries me because it does not matter who the owner is, if IoC is dead in the water and most of these people know it...well that just plain old sucks!

Great win tonight, ignoring all of the hype and media...just keep plugging away and move up the standings!
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Postby CP2 on Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:21 am

Draftnik wrote:
CP2 wrote:Bettman screwed this deal up.



How did Bettman screw it up? Selling the franchise before the arena situation was clarified only made sense for the Lemieux Group LLP.


Let me clarify....

I have too many things going on my screen....

From keeping the team in Pittsburgh, Bettman DIDN'T screw up. We don't know where the pressure came from. REMEMBER Bettman doesn't decide the contents of the Consent Agreement. It is a sub-committe of the BOG. Maybe the committe was influenced by the Leafs or Sabres...we just don't know at this point.

Bettman DID screw up the sale process. He seduced (for lack of a better word) JB into making the high bid. Bettman, as I have said way too much ,and you are probably tired of hearing it, tries to get the most dollar for the franchises.

This hurts the sale. IT is now a failed auction for the Pens. It looses PLAN B negotiating power for any potential buyer.
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Postby edog on Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:49 am

CP2 wrote:
Draftnik wrote:
CP2 wrote:Bettman screwed this deal up.



How did Bettman screw it up? Selling the franchise before the arena situation was clarified only made sense for the Lemieux Group LLP.


Let me clarify....

I have too many things going on my screen....

From keeping the team in Pittsburgh, Bettman DIDN'T screw up. We don't know where the pressure came from. REMEMBER Bettman doesn't decide the contents of the Consent Agreement. It is a sub-committe of the BOG. Maybe the committe was influenced by the Leafs or Sabres...we just don't know at this point.

Bettman DID screw up the sale process. He seduced (for lack of a better word) JB into making the high bid. Bettman, as I have said way too much ,and you are probably tired of hearing it, tries to get the most dollar for the franchises.

This hurts the sale. IT is now a failed auction for the Pens. It looses PLAN B negotiating power for any potential buyer.


I have mixed feelings about this. First off, happy as he!! that it appears the team is staying. Sad that Mario might remain the owner. Mario was the greatest player ever in my opinion & I wear his jersey proudly. I even appreciate the fact he bought the team out of bankruptcy. But as far as his tenure as an owner.....not so good. This team needs a deep pocket owner to spend the necessary cash to continue to add pieces to the puzzle.....
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Postby Marshall Dylan on Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:19 am

There is MUCH more going on here than meets the eye. You think it's a coincidence that this all happened less than a week before the slots license is assigned?
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