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Postby DayWalker on Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:34 pm

ziggystardust wrote:
Reilly wrote:
borohcky9 wrote:I hate to break the news to you, but Ouellet, Christensen, Armstrong, Talbot, none of these guys are top line talent....period...now drop it, we are in serious need of offensive fire power on this team.


Given Lemieux and Palffy already left and Recchi and LeClair will soon follow, I agree.


GAH!

Lemieux and Palffy DIDN'T provide "fire power"
They loafed and coasted all over the ice. They hurt the team.
Recchi and Leclair?? "fire power" from those two? are you kidding?

those players are garbage. The offense that Ouellet, Armstrong and Christensen will provide when malkin arrives will FAR exceed what those old guys have done this season.
Ouellet scores goals. He knows how to find open spots and is a tremendous finisher. He is going to be a great weak-side winger for Malkin. Armstrong bangs bodies and goes hard to the net. He will greatly benefit from playing with Sid. Christensen is strong on the backcheck, hard-working, smart in the offensive zone and has one heck of a shot. He is most certainly a top two line player.

Those young guys are going to be good first and second line players because the styles they possess mesh so well with what Malkin and Crosby bring to the table.


The penguins don't have a first pairing defenseman in the organization at this point, unless whitney greatly improves his defensive play. Adding a future number one defenseman is just something you can't pass up. Defenseman who can play 30 minutes a game can make up for so many short-comings and injuries to other players back on the blue-line. I just don't understand how you can look at the impact that Pronger, Chara, Lidstrom, Blake, Zubov etc have had on their teams and casually write off the effect of a true number one defenseman - and that is precisely what Johnson has the potential to become.

You don't, IMO, pass on that.


I would be fascinated to see how many other scouts around the league project Oulette et al to be point-a-game players like Palffy was for his career...

I am guessing...uh...not too many.

Aside from Crosby and potentially Malkin, the Penguins have next to zero potential impact players up front. Too much scoring-projected or otherwise-ain't one of their problems.

If anybody is banking on Oulette and others to carry the load, expect this team to compete for more lottery picks in the near future.
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Postby Reilly on Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:36 pm

ziggystardust wrote:
Reilly wrote:
borohcky9 wrote:I hate to break the news to you, but Ouellet, Christensen, Armstrong, Talbot, none of these guys are top line talent....period...now drop it, we are in serious need of offensive fire power on this team.


Given Lemieux and Palffy already left and Recchi and LeClair will soon follow, I agree.


GAH!

Lemieux and Palffy DIDN'T provide "fire power"
They loafed and coasted all over the ice. They hurt the team.
Recchi and Leclair?? "fire power" from those two? are you kidding?


I never said they provided firepower. Palffy was at least defensively responsible and was an equal playmaker with Sid that gave them ONE solid top line that teams had to prepare for. Mario drew two defenders every time he was on the ice simply because he's Mario Lemieux. Unlike Malone, LeClair knows what to do in front of the net. Recchi is meh but he's their second best forward right now.

If the Pens want a franchise defenseman right now, Zdeno Chara will be available. Why not just sign him? It makes MORE SENSE to put cap money into proven defensemen because they're more vaulable. Even if they draft Johnson this offseason, he won't make an impact for a couple years at least. That means, they won't put anymore significant money into defense this offseason and they'll be the same team next year. Besides, have you seen the Pens defensive depth they have?

The fact is, right now, Crosby has no one to play with. Yeah, he improves guys like Oulette and Armstrong, but he shouldn't have to. He's doing too much work than he should be. When the current Pens play teams like Ottawa and Detroit, they just don't have the forward depth to match up to them. They get NO SCORING from any of their lines except Crosby's and their PP's are brutal to watch.
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Postby borohcky9 on Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:50 pm

ziggystardust wrote:


you realize he's almost a point per game player right now, don't you?



Weren't you the one that "called out" Lemieux constantly for being nothing but a power play asset, because the majority of his points came on the PP...

Look at Ouellet's stats, 80% of his goals on the PP. This proves that he is a one-dimensional player.

He will be a good 1st powerplay unit player, but 5-5 he should be a third line forward at best.
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Postby Vanbiesbrouck on Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:25 pm

borohcky9 wrote:I hate to break the news to you, but Ouellet, Christensen, Armstrong, Talbot, none of these guys are top line talent....period...now drop it, we are in serious need of offensive fire power on this team. Teams that win not only have a #1 scoring line, but also a #2 scoring line.

The penguins couldnt put together one scoring line with that list of players, or any other players in the organization.

We are in desperate need of a flashy goal scoring, puck carrying forward. Kinda like Kovy...but younger....maybe Martin Erat from Nashville, or even Tanguay.

This is what we need...we will have a good solid defense in a couple years...Welch, Orpik, Whitney, Letang, Bissonette, Lannon and fill in the spaces via trading away our extensive crop of 3rd line centers and muckers----Endicott, Murley, Talbot, Hussey, Lefebvre


Ignoring the fact that you call Erat a flashy goal scorer and compare him to a young Kovalev....

How can you pass judgement so quickly and decidedly on the forwards, yet say that there are a solid # 1 and # 2 NHL D-man combo out of that list? That's not to say that there's not talent there. Just curious what makes it so obvious that our forwards are not going to develop, yet you say in a couple years we'll have a solid defense given all unprovens.
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Postby NIN on Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:29 pm

borohcky9 wrote:
ziggystardust wrote:


you realize he's almost a point per game player right now, don't you?



Weren't you the one that "called out" Lemieux constantly for being nothing but a power play asset, because the majority of his points came on the PP...

Look at Ouellet's stats, 80% of his goals on the PP. This proves that he is a one-dimensional player.

He will be a good 1st powerplay unit player, but 5-5 he should be a third line forward at best.


Touche good sir..........tuchee.

Therrian has done a great job of helping Oulletet get that NHL shot to the league it belongs in by working the rest of his game to the point where he could play on any line on an NHL team. I think he would be best suited as a 2nd line finisher but he would not hurt the team on line 3 either.
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Postby netwolf on Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:00 pm

I'll give Ouellet credit - he may be a power play specialist (a modern day Robbie Brown?), but he's produced more at this level than I thought he would. He is average at best at even strength though, maybe even a liability.
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Postby pfim on Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:02 pm

ziggystardust wrote:
borohcky9 wrote:I hate to break the news to you, but Ouellet, Christensen, Armstrong, Talbot, none of these guys are top line talent....period...now drop it, we are in serious need of offensive fire power on this team. Teams that win not only have a #1 scoring line, but also a #2 scoring line.

The penguins couldnt put together one scoring line with that list of players, or any other players in the organization.

We are in desperate need of a flashy goal scoring, puck carrying forward. Kinda like Kovy...but younger....maybe Martin Erat from Nashville, or even Tanguay.

This is what we need...we will have a good solid defense in a couple years...Welch, Orpik, Whitney, Letang, Bissonette, Lannon and fill in the spaces via trading away our extensive crop of 3rd line centers and muckers----Endicott, Murley, Talbot, Hussey, Lefebvre


You don't just throw talent on the ice and hope it mixes well.
You get players that feed off the abilities of their line-mates.

Colby, Ouellet and Christensen might not be big names but one goes hard to the net and had enough talent to be picked in the first round, another will be a tremendous weak-side winger and the other DOES have top two line talent and in most organizations he would figure to be a #2 center in a couple years.


Pixxburgh yinzers are funny.


I think the sooner Christensen moves to LW, the sooner he becomes an NHL regular. He has center qualities, but will never see the position with the players in front of him.

If Ouellet keeps improving defensively, he'll be an NHL player. But I can't see this guy on Crosby's or Malkin's line.
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Postby pfim on Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:36 pm

interesting. why not?
I think he's got the awareness and the shot to get to an open spot where Malkin can find him, and the hands to finish once he gets the puck. I think this would be a good match


He isn't a third line player, and he won't be a top 2 center on this team. I think he's a lot of what they wanted Surovy to be.
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Postby NIN on Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:46 pm

ziggystardust wrote:
pfim wrote:
ziggystardust wrote:
borohcky9 wrote:I hate to break the news to you, but Ouellet, Christensen, Armstrong, Talbot, none of these guys are top line talent....period...now drop it, we are in serious need of offensive fire power on this team. Teams that win not only have a #1 scoring line, but also a #2 scoring line.

The penguins couldnt put together one scoring line with that list of players, or any other players in the organization.

We are in desperate need of a flashy goal scoring, puck carrying forward. Kinda like Kovy...but younger....maybe Martin Erat from Nashville, or even Tanguay.

This is what we need...we will have a good solid defense in a couple years...Welch, Orpik, Whitney, Letang, Bissonette, Lannon and fill in the spaces via trading away our extensive crop of 3rd line centers and muckers----Endicott, Murley, Talbot, Hussey, Lefebvre


You don't just throw talent on the ice and hope it mixes well.
You get players that feed off the abilities of their line-mates.

Colby, Ouellet and Christensen might not be big names but one goes hard to the net and had enough talent to be picked in the first round, another will be a tremendous weak-side winger and the other DOES have top two line talent and in most organizations he would figure to be a #2 center in a couple years.


Pixxburgh yinzers are funny.


I think the sooner Christensen moves to LW, the sooner he becomes an NHL regular. He has center qualities, but will never see the position with the players in front of him.

If Ouellet keeps improving defensively, he'll be an NHL player. But I can't see this guy on Crosby's or Malkin's line.


interesting. why not?
I think he's got the awareness and the shot to get to an open spot where Malkin can find him, and the hands to finish once he gets the puck. I think this would be a good match


I think Malkin can make alot of players better and Oullete would beneift but from what I saw Malkin likes to join the play late on occasion and I don't see Oullete leading a rush unless its a 60 and over league.
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Postby pfim on Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:55 pm

ziggystardust wrote:
pfim wrote:
interesting. why not?
I think he's got the awareness and the shot to get to an open spot where Malkin can find him, and the hands to finish once he gets the puck. I think this would be a good match


He isn't a third line player, and he won't be a top 2 center on this team. I think he's a lot of what they wanted Surovy to be.



wait. ouellet or EC?


Thought we were talking about EC...I said I can't see Ouellet on one of the top two lines.
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Postby NIN on Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:00 am

I think EC and Ouellete will be among the teams top 6 forwards next season along with Crosby,Malkin, Armstrong, and Recchi.
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Postby pfim on Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:16 am

ziggystardust wrote:
pfim wrote:
ziggystardust wrote:
pfim wrote:
interesting. why not?
I think he's got the awareness and the shot to get to an open spot where Malkin can find him, and the hands to finish once he gets the puck. I think this would be a good match


He isn't a third line player, and he won't be a top 2 center on this team. I think he's a lot of what they wanted Surovy to be.



wait. ouellet or EC?


Thought we were talking about EC...I said I can't see Ouellet on one of the top two lines.


Ah, i see. I was talking Ouellet, and wondering why you couldn't see him as a top two line player


Sorry, too many beers I guess. I don't think he can keep up with either center. I have actually been surprised by his play 5 on 5, but it is not good enough to play with a talent like Crosby. Ouellet is a zero on any sort of offensive rush, he has more trouble with passes and one-timers than he really should, and his passing in the offensive zone is only adequate. I think his ceiling is a 3rd line winger (on a good team, mind you) and PP player, sort of like Holmstrom, although they score in different ways.
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Postby FlyerNation on Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:18 am

Doan and Gauthier/Morris will be Flyers by the deadline. With Primeau finally announcing he's done today it'll clear the way for a deal with Phx. Umberger, Ruczika, 1st (06) and a 2nd (06).

Book it.
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Postby BCHill on Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:17 pm

Reilly wrote: They get NO SCORING from any of their lines except Crosby's and their PP's are brutal to watch.


Really? The PP is brutal? Do you realize that the PP has gone 25% in the past couple of months? One of the best in the league of late.
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Postby SnowPlow on Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:58 pm

If you trade for RJ you also get his father and I dont think that's anything needed in Pittsburgh.
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Postby DayWalker on Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:20 pm

ziggystardust wrote:
DayWalker wrote:
ziggystardust wrote:
Reilly wrote:
borohcky9 wrote:I hate to break the news to you, but Ouellet, Christensen, Armstrong, Talbot, none of these guys are top line talent....period...now drop it, we are in serious need of offensive fire power on this team.


Given Lemieux and Palffy already left and Recchi and LeClair will soon follow, I agree.


GAH!

Lemieux and Palffy DIDN'T provide "fire power"
They loafed and coasted all over the ice. They hurt the team.
Recchi and Leclair?? "fire power" from those two? are you kidding?

those players are garbage. The offense that Ouellet, Armstrong and Christensen will provide when malkin arrives will FAR exceed what those old guys have done this season.
Ouellet scores goals. He knows how to find open spots and is a tremendous finisher. He is going to be a great weak-side winger for Malkin. Armstrong bangs bodies and goes hard to the net. He will greatly benefit from playing with Sid. Christensen is strong on the backcheck, hard-working, smart in the offensive zone and has one heck of a shot. He is most certainly a top two line player.

Those young guys are going to be good first and second line players because the styles they possess mesh so well with what Malkin and Crosby bring to the table.


The penguins don't have a first pairing defenseman in the organization at this point, unless whitney greatly improves his defensive play. Adding a future number one defenseman is just something you can't pass up. Defenseman who can play 30 minutes a game can make up for so many short-comings and injuries to other players back on the blue-line. I just don't understand how you can look at the impact that Pronger, Chara, Lidstrom, Blake, Zubov etc have had on their teams and casually write off the effect of a true number one defenseman - and that is precisely what Johnson has the potential to become.

You don't, IMO, pass on that.


I would be fascinated to see how many other scouts around the league project Oulette et al to be point-a-game players like Palffy was for his career...

I am guessing...uh...not too many.

Aside from Crosby and potentially Malkin, the Penguins have next to zero potential impact players up front. Too much scoring-projected or otherwise-ain't one of their problems.

If anybody is banking on Oulette and others to carry the load, expect this team to compete for more lottery picks in the near future.



you realize he's almost a point per game player right now, don't you?


Right. Over how many games again? Palffy has/had been that kind of player for almost ten years.

No comparsion.

Get back to me when Oulette proves he can be a point-a-game player over the duration of a full 82-game season, let alone a full decade.
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Postby HomerPenguin on Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:18 pm

ziggystardust wrote:
pfim wrote:If Ouellet keeps improving defensively, he'll be an NHL player. But I can't see this guy on Crosby's or Malkin's line.


interesting. why not?
I think he's got the awareness and the shot to get to an open spot where Malkin can find him, and the hands to finish once he gets the puck. I think this would be a good match


I'm curious as to why you have such a high opinion of Ouellet's hands. I've seen him fan on as many one-timer opportunities as he's actually connected with. He frequently seems to have trouble with those plays unless he's uncovered with enough time to stop the puck, control it, and then shoot. That worries me. Maybe it's rookie jitters, or maybe his hands are over-hyped.
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Postby NIN on Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:30 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:
ziggystardust wrote:
pfim wrote:If Ouellet keeps improving defensively, he'll be an NHL player. But I can't see this guy on Crosby's or Malkin's line.


interesting. why not?
I think he's got the awareness and the shot to get to an open spot where Malkin can find him, and the hands to finish once he gets the puck. I think this would be a good match


I'm curious as to why you have such a high opinion of Ouellet's hands. I've seen him fan on as many one-timer opportunities as he's actually connected with. He frequently seems to have trouble with those plays unless he's uncovered with enough time to stop the puck, control it, and then shoot. That worries me. Maybe it's rookie jitters, or maybe his hands are over-hyped.


He can one-time a puck just fine im sure. He is a rookie and that has alot to do with his mistakes but the main reason is the timing. He has bounced from one line to another all season as well as from one league to another. Once he settles in he will be fine.

I don't worry about the one-timers but I worry about his entire game disapearing for weeks at a time. He has been terribly streaky in other leagues but at the NHL level this season he has been steady. Nobody scores a goal a game all season so the key is not going more then 3 or 4 before you get one more.
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Postby Defence21 on Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:36 am

ziggystardust wrote:Like you said, he's only a rookie - we've got to remember that.


I think that's the problem with a lot of the Penguins. So many of these players are in the first full season in the NHL and are being counted on, by the team and fans, to play roles they aren't necessarily ready to fill. Because of this, fans tend to overanalyze these players and underestimate them.

Sure, it's tough to say guys like Surovy, Ouellet, Christensen and Armstrong will be stars, but, as rookies, these kids are showing glimpses of what could be very solid careers.

Again, as you said, the key thing to remember is that the majority of this team is made up of players who, at this point in their careers, should be in secondary roles, not primary ones. Give them a few years, and we could have some quality forwards,

Also, remember that players don't have to be superstars to be top-line talents. There are plenty of guys around the league who do specific things very well and have earned top-line minutes because of that -- but are not well-known or superstar calibre. Some names that come to mind are Mike Knuble, Marty Ruchinsky, Brendan Morrow, and even a guy like Olli Jokinen.
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Postby Defence21 on Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:03 pm

ziggystardust wrote:You need guys who feed off each other, who can take advantage of and exploit the strengths of their linemates. This is why I don't think the penguins have a huge need for top two line forwards - Ouellet, Christensen and Armstrong all have the skill-sets I want from the players lined up next to sidney or malkin.


Right. I agree here, but I also think it wouldn't hurt to go out and find a younger free agent player with plenty of skill and grit that could help out on one of the top two lines.

Right now, the future looks to have 5 guys to fill 6 spots on the top 2 lines -- Crosby, Malkin, Armstrong, Ouellet, and Christensen. Of those guys, only two (Malkin and Armstrong) are physical and have the ability to be physical. Crosby plays a rough game, but should have linemates to do this for him. Ouellet and Christensen just need to play specialized games in the offensive and defensive zones. With that said, if they could sign a big winger for one of the top 2 lines, it would be an extremely smart idea. Obviously these types of players are tough to come by, but they might be able to nab one in a trade that involves their first overall pick -- or through free agency.
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Postby borohcky9 on Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:07 pm

A player along the lines of Eric Cole would be perfect for that situation.

Getting him would be the tough/impossible part.
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