Starkey Says Patrick Must Go

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Starkey Says Patrick Must Go

Postby Mad City Mike on Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:13 am

Hey, Joe, welcome aboard the MCM bandwagon that has been running for about five years now. As he says in this column, Patrick deserves much credit for the two Cups. And he does not deserve blame for the lack of finances that caused a decline in performance. But he deserves full blame for the horrendous drafting and dvelopment through the late 90s and the inept coach hirings. Craig Patrick, your time is up.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/sports/s_429058.html
Mad City Mike
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,759
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:14 am
Location: De Forest, WI

Postby spoon on Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:30 am

didnt he write that from a collection of your posts over the years?

I was surprised to see Joe with some balls on this one. Good job mate!
spoon
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:37 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Postby Mad City Mike on Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:53 am

spoon wrote:didnt he write that from a collection of your posts over the years?

I was surprised to see Joe with some balls on this one. Good job mate!


Just like Madden, he only steals from the best :lol:
Mad City Mike
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,759
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:14 am
Location: De Forest, WI

Postby Defence21 on Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:25 am

Can't say I disagree with a word he said. I never thought about youth within the team officials, but he is absolutely right. They should have hired a young hockey buff businessman to be assistant GM under CP years ago. Although, with the way he has performed, the protoge may not have learned a thing.

Lets just hope CP knows his job is on the line between now and next Thursday. Maybe that will force/encourage him to pull off some of the magic he had in the past.
Defence21
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,839
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: Johnstown, PA

Postby Mad City Mike on Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:36 am

Defence21 wrote:Lets just hope CP knows his job is on the line between now and next Thursday. Maybe that will force/encourage him to pull off some of the magic he had in the past.


For the first time, I would rather see them do nothing at all. I simply do not trust Patrick to make any intelligent moves.
Mad City Mike
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,759
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:14 am
Location: De Forest, WI

Postby Draftnik on Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:39 am

This is a captain obvious column. In CP's defense though I think he gets shortchanged when people only acknowledge the Francis/Samuelsson deal as his good work. He stole Larry Murphy from Minnesota that season. He also did some great work by unloading Stevens big contract for Smolinski/Murray. He stole Nedved/Zubov from NY.

His best work IMO was in the late 90s when he got Kovy and cobbled a bunch of castoffs like Lang, Straka, Slegr, Werenka, Hedberg, etc in to some decent teams with Jagr from 98-01. He also got a tremendous return in the Barrasso deal.

On the flip side, pretty much everything he has done starting with the Jagr deal has been an absolute disaster. For anybody to give him credit for Crosby, Malkin, and MAF is a joke. His time has run its course.
Draftnik
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,011
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:52 pm
Location: Peters Twp.

I agree...slow trade day for pens

Postby penny lane on Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:32 pm

Mad City Mike wrote:
Defence21 wrote:Lets just hope CP knows his job is on the line between now and next Thursday. Maybe that will force/encourage him to pull off some of the magic he had in the past.


For the first time, I would rather see them do nothing at all. I simply do not trust Patrick to make any intelligent moves.


M Recchi & J Leclair may be on somebody's radar so off to the
play-offs for them. Who knows, we could be shocked to the
core by a GM who sees to the inside of Sergei and covets him. :shock:
in 2000 sens thought enough of T Barrasso to give us 2 players.

Wouldn't surprise me that CP has offers for R Jackman.
penny lane
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 28,516
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:29 pm
Location: Ready

Postby netwolf on Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:22 pm

I am not a Starkey fan at all, but that was a pretty fair piece I think. The only quibble I have is the characterization of Therrien as a PR nightmare. Where did that come from? The time he lambasted his defense corps?

Good job MCM (I know you ghost-wrote that for him). :wink:
netwolf
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,351
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:04 am

Postby Mad City Mike on Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:38 pm

netwolf wrote:Good job MCM (I know you ghost-wrote that for him). :wink:


I have been submitting these talking points to every print and broadcast journalist in Pittsburgh for years :lol: . It's about time one of them stole them and printed them. The chorus of voices advocating for Patrick's outser is getting louder by the day. Madden, Smizik, and now Starkey are now on board.

I saw CP on Sportsbeat last night saying he wants to stay. Good luck with THAT one, Craig. The only way he stays is if the team is not sold by summer. Mario suffers from the same loyalty problem as Patrick, and will keep him around.

As for Therrien, yeah, I'm not sure where that came from. One can argue about whether he should be the coach, but not on a PR basis.
Last edited by Mad City Mike on Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mad City Mike
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,759
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:14 am
Location: De Forest, WI

Postby DelPen on Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:02 pm

Mad City Mike wrote:
Defence21 wrote:Lets just hope CP knows his job is on the line between now and next Thursday. Maybe that will force/encourage him to pull off some of the magic he had in the past.


For the first time, I would rather see them do nothing at all. I simply do not trust Patrick to make any intelligent moves.


Anyone over 30 can go. Don't care who we get in return as long as they are cheaper for less years.
DelPen
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 33,533
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:27 am
Location: Lake Wylie, SC

Postby Draftnik on Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:32 pm

Mad City Mike wrote:I saw CP on Sportsbeat last night saying he wants to stay. Good luck with THAT one, Craig. The only way he stays is if the team is not sold by summer. Mario suffers from the same loyalty problem as Patrick, and will keep him around.


CP is not on the inside circle anymore. Mario tried to move him to SJ a few years ago. Look at the comments in the papers today how CP said "he heard Mario was doing well", but had not spoken with him directly. CP heard Mario is doing well from people in the circle. Outsiders do not talk to Mario directly.
Draftnik
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,011
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:52 pm
Location: Peters Twp.

Postby Zscout on Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:45 pm

Didn't Starkey call for the firing of Cowher a couple of years ago?

Starkey was calling Patrick a genius at the start of the season.

Starkey is so bandwagon that he does not have an opinion.
Zscout
 

Postby Bowser on Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:54 pm

Z - Do you think Patrick can be part of the solution?
Bowser
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,963
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:08 am

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:04 pm

Honestly, I think the problem goes deeper than CP.

As much as I Love Mario, he's shown he has some of the worst judgement when it comes to evaluating players (Hey, many many superstars are affilicted this way - I'll present a long list if asked).

The first thing the Pens need is for Mario to step away from making GM type decisons. Then, when CP is given back full control of personnel decisions, I'lll be willing to hold him accountable.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Postby MrKnowNothing on Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:36 pm

Like I said in another thread, I'm not Patrick's biggest fan, and he's made bad deals. But when it comes to replacing him, I'm not sure of anyone out there whose name I like.
MrKnowNothing
 

Postby Zscout on Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:05 pm

Bowser wrote:Z - Do you think Patrick can be part of the solution?


Patrick has never shown he has the ability to develop young talent.
The system needs revamped from scouting through the minors.
Things that make me wonder are the lack of rookie/prospect camps and lack of good coach.

It looked like they were going in the right direction two years ago. The whole win the cup now set them back and they can still recover to be competitive in a couple of years.
One key note: no way under the cap will this team be able to peak with Crosby, Malkin and Fleury (plus the prospect they draft this year). They will run into the situation where they will have to choose who to keep and who to trade off.
Zscout
 

Postby Bowser on Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:19 pm

MKN - There are a ton of good candidates to replace Craig Patrick such as Steve Tambellini, Jim Nill, Les Jackson, and Rick Dudley.

Z - I believe Patrick had no choice but to go for the Cup this season because Lemieux was in his last or next to last year as a player. I don't blame him for signing Gonchar, Palffy, and Recchi but the length of the deal to Gonchar was a bit surprising. He went wrong by signing Andre Roy to a 3-year deal, Thibault to a 2-year deal, LeClair to a 2-year deal, signing wastes like Odelein and Poapst and keeping Tarnstrom at his overpaid price from arbitration.

I strongly believe a new GM will come in and run those rookie orientation camps in the summer and the rookie tournaments like those in Michigan. A new guy will not have Therrien coaching without a quality assistant coach to work with our defensemen.

SO many things need changed.
Bowser
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,963
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:08 am

Postby Stoosh on Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:36 pm

Steve Tambellini is one guy I'd like to see them take a serious look at if the opportunity (or need) presents itself. Or maybe Rick Dudley. Those two would be at the tops of my list if I'm looking for a new GM.

And it's not like this wouldn't be an attractive position, either. You can go up and down this league and you won't find a better core of four young players to build around than Crosby, Malkin, Fleury and Whitney. If you throw Orpik and Armstrong in there, it looks even better. Combine that with another lottery pick coming this year (possibly the first or second overall), a new owner and a sparkling new arena...

For the longest time I was one of Patrick's biggest supporters. The guy has been around hockey all of his life and he comes from one of hockey's greatest families (then again, that certainly didn't do much for Brother Glenn now, did it?). I disagree with those who say he's lived off the deals he made more than 10 years ago. He made a LOT of smart deals and shrewd signings in the mid-late 1990s as well...nothing that really approached the level of the Francis deal, but they were still smart moves. And I will be forever grateful to the guy for having the foresight to start dumping salary three years before the lockout. That foresight is a big reason why we've got Crosby and Malkin right now.

He had some blunders, but so has every GM. And believe it or not, he could be worse.

(NOTE: For some real fun, jump on www.hockeydb.com and look at the draft history of the New York Islanders starting around, oh, 1995. If I'm an Islanders fan, I don't know how I've stopped myself from jamming a pistol in my mouth to this point.)

He's taken a lot of heat for his poor job of projecting the effect the new rules would have on the game and as a consequence, some of the poor signings he made this past offseason. I'm willing to give him a little bit of a pass on some of that. No one knew exactly what to expect of the new game and anyone who says they did is flat-out lying. And many of the teams who were the biggest players in free agency haven't found themselves faring all that much better than the Pens this year. Not that that makes it OK...I'm just saying he wasn't the only GM to misfire on free agency.

Here's why I think he needs to go. His long-term record of drafting and development has been beyond awful. His handling of the coaches at the NHL and AHL levels borders on embarrasment and may have damn well cost this team the three prospects they got back in the Jagr deal, not to mention just about every prospect this team drafted in the mid-1990s (look at those drafts and tell me how Greg Malone managed to keep his job). Both Patrick and Malone can thank Michel Therrien for partially bailing their *** out on that one.

He fell into the same trap that most of us fans did this offseason - he allowed free agency to replace the rebuilding process instead of supplementing it. Maybe part of it was an honest attempt to make one last Cup run for Mario, but it doesn't excuse the money and years that he doled out on some of those deals.

The risk you take in making a change is that there are no guarantees it'll get better. The new ownership and new GM could end up being the next coming of Detroit (I'll reserve the Sens comparisons until the Sens win a Cup). Or it could end up being the second coming of the Bruins or Islanders. But if you get a respected hockey name - a guy like Dudley or Tambellini in the fold, I'd feel a hell of a lot better about that transition.
Stoosh
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,469
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:19 am
Location: Aliquippa, PA

Postby NIN on Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:45 pm

I thought the article was sweet and too the point ecpet for this:

"After Olczyk came Michel Therrien, who has a losing record in three of his four NHL seasons and is a public-relations disaster. "

I disagree entirely. The Pens have'nt had a coach with a pulse since Herb Brooks short stay and nothing bothers me more then a leader who shows indifference to his duties. Just like Randell, Murphy, and to a lesser extent Onorato. Therrian's rants clearly dont inspire the team to play above and beyond their current skill levels but it sent a clear message to everybody concerned with Penguin hockey, and that message is, "I am in charge. There will be pride here. There will be self sacrifice. If you forget that I will remind you.".

Just because a guy has a heavy French accent and doesnt say "yunz" doesnt make him a PR nightmare it makes him colorful. If I have to listen to another Cowher I will bleed my eardrums out with and icepick!!

Also if Cowher can win a Super Bowl, Therrian sure as hell can win some Stanley Cups!! Take that to the bank.
NIN
 

Postby netwolf on Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:02 pm

Stoosh wrote:Here's why I think he needs to go. His long-term record of drafting and development has been beyond awful.


The single biggest reason for this the the organizational belief that the development is all up to the player. I know a player has to WANT to be better, but if I burn a draft pick on kid and sign him to X amount of dollars, I think it would be in my best interest to make sure I do everything I can to maximize the chances of that kid reaching his potential. Ultimately, yes, it does come down to the player, but that doesn't mean the organization bears zero responsibiilty. There are some kids that will be stars no matter what. There are others that will bust no matter what. Most kids though, it's going to depend on where they go and who they work with.

This team doesn't seem to realize that and I have never understood why.
netwolf
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,351
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:04 am

Postby MrKnowNothing on Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:12 am

See, the very mention of Rick Dudley is what makes me second guess dumping Patrick.
MrKnowNothing
 

Postby Pitts on Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:46 am

MrKnowNothing wrote:See, the very mention of Rick Dudley is what makes me second guess dumping Patrick.


Why do you say that? Wasn't it Dudley who built Ottawa and Tampa Bay through the drafts? From what I recall, he is a very good judge of young talent and knows how to draft.
Pitts
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 18,559
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:22 am
Location: Working ....

Postby MrKnowNothing on Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:14 am

He's had his good and bad moments, just like everybody else.

To me, Patrick has a somewhat proven track record that I'm more comfortable going with for now. I understand the idea of bringing in some fresh people to the organization, but I just don't know if right now is the time to pull the trigger or not.
MrKnowNothing
 

Postby randy on Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:14 pm

rick dudley???? other candidates with no experience? Like youll have patience with them. Youre probably already sissatisfied with Therrien for crissakes.

You are a total idiot bowser. Stick to FA guesswork, like kovalev.

Did it occur to ANY of you that CP's real team is pretty much wearing red white and blue, and they should all (including zubov) still be here on top of the division, if not for $$$$$$ issues.

HOW is that Patricks fault?

And seeing what he's had left to work with, and all the turmoil, id say he's done a very good job assembling a team that will succeed down the road.

Too many of you clowns think can l be fixed in a season
randy
 

Postby Nihar on Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:46 am

randy wrote:
Too many of you clowns think can l be fixed in a season


I don't think you can be fixed in a season. I think your problems run much deeper. :lol:
Nihar
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:09 am
Location: Providence, RI


Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Admin, Hugo Stiglitz and 7 guests

e-mail