A Card Game: 500

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A Card Game: 500

Postby redwill on Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:46 pm

Thought I'd try this as an experiment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/500_%28card_game%29

The rules I play with are slightly different than in the Wiki article. I have to admit that when trying to lay out the rules, it's pretty damn complex until you get used to it. It's not quite as bad as Bridge, but it can still be intimidating. Please give it a try, though, if you like. Here goes:


We'll need four players in addition to the mod.

The mod distributes the cards. There are four players grouped into two teams. All 2s and 3s are removed from the deck, but the joker is included, leaving 45 cards. After randomization, the dealer gives each player 10 cards via PM.

The goal is to take as many tricks per hand as a player bids.

A predetermined player is the "dealer" and bidding starts on the dealer's left. So the dealer is always the last bidder. Players are bidding that their team can take a certain amount of tricks in the given hand. With each new hand, the "dealer" is moved to the next player.

Obviously, there are ten tricks to each hand, since every player plays one of his/her cards each hand.

If a team gets to 500 points, they win the game.

How many points does a team get for a hand? Well, there's a chart for that. The version I've always played is different than what is on Wikipedia. We can decide which is best.

Here's mine:

Spoiler:
6 Clubs: 40 points
7 Clubs: 140
8 Clubs: 240
9 Clubs: 340
10 Clubs: 440

6 Spades: 60
7 Spades: 160
8 Spades: 260
9 Spades: 360
10 Spades: 460

6 Diamonds: 80
7 Diamonds: 180
8 Diamonds: 280
9 Diamonds: 380
10 Diamonds: 480

6 Hearts: 100
7 Hearts: 200
8 Hearts: 300
9 Hearts: 400
10 Hearts: 500

6 No Trump: 120
7 No Trump: 220
8 No Trump: 320
9 No Trump: 420
10 No Trump: 520

Each player bids. Or any player can pass. The highest bid wins. Which bid is highest is based on the points for that bid. So a 7 Clubs bid beats a 6 Hearts bid and a 7 No Trump bid beats a 7 Diamonds bid, etc.

-> The winning bidder gets the widow (AKA the kitty), which is the five remaining cards. The winner can trade any of his/her cards with cards from the widow, but must discard five cards and keep ten.


SO:

The high bidder starts the hand by playing a card. Certain cards beat others, as you might expect:

The suit of the winning bid is called trump.

JOKER is highest and always takes the trick (Joker is considered trump in any given hand)
JACK of trump is next (this is called the right bower)
JACK of the same color as trump is next (this is called the left bower)
Then any trump take the trick, in order of their precedence (king beats queen, five beats four, etc.)
If no trumps are played, then the highest card of any non-trump suit takes the trick.


THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE IS THAT EVERYONE MUST FOLLOW SUIT. For example, if a diamond is played, you MUST play a diamond, if you have one. You can ONLY not follow suit if you have none of the suit (you are void in that suit).


After each player plays a card, the highest card takes the trick. After all ten cards are played, it's determined if the bidding player reached his/her bid. If so, that player and his partner get the points for the bid. If they take all ten tricks, they get 250 points or the value of their bid, whichever is higher.

There are some other things involved, including what happens if no one bids and bidding that you'll lose every hand.

And then there's the discussion of strategy, which can be very fun.


Anyway, I just wanted to see if anyone is interested. I may have missed some important details, but this is just a throw-out-there-to-see-who-nibbles.

If anyone is interested, please discuss.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby columbia on Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:50 pm

lynch Hoyle
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby Juice on Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:17 pm

So in
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby Juice on Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:20 pm

I've always played 2s 3s and black 4s are remove, the widow only has 3 cards, and 6 bids don't count. We started scoring at 7 spades and up.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby Willie Kool on Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:21 pm

Sounds fun, but the waiting would ruin it, IMO.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby MWB on Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:41 pm

Willie Kool wrote:Sounds fun, but the waiting would ruin it, IMO.


Parade, here's some rain.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby redwill on Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:10 pm

Juice wrote:I've always played 2s 3s and black 4s are remove, the widow only has 3 cards, and 6 bids don't count. We started scoring at 7 spades and up.


Never heard of removing the black 4s and reducing the widow to 3 cards. But we often informally outlawed 6 bids, 'cause they're so pathetic.

I can swing with those rules, though.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby redwill on Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:14 pm

I'll spend a few posts giving an example of a hand. In this example, I'll use my rules and not Juice's rules since it makes it a little easier for me.

So a standard 52-card deck, with the 2s and 3s removed and a single JOKER included: 45 cards. After randomization, this comes up:

Spoiler:
4 Clubs
6 Clubs
9 Diamonds
A Clubs
9 Clubs
Q Spades
JOKER
10 Spades
J Diamonds
K Spades
Q Diamonds
Q Clubs
9 Hearts
10 Clubs
5 Clubs
7 Clubs
8 Clubs
6 Spades
7 Hearts
7 Diamonds
4 Diamonds
5 Diamonds
J Clubs
A Diamonds
9 Spades
4 Hearts
J Spades
10 Hearts
8 Spades
8 Diamonds
10 Diamonds
5 Spades
K Diamonds
A Hearts
6 Diamonds
A Spades
5 Hearts
8 Hearts
7 Spades
K Hearts
J Hearts
4 Spades
6 Hearts
K Clubs
Q Hearts

Typically, hands are dealt in 3 sets of 3 cards to each player and then 1 card to each player. We'll use the Bridge notation of the four compass points to represent the players. So we have N, E, S, and W. Remember that N and S are partners and E and W are partners. So we have the following hands:

N:
Spoiler:
4 Clubs
6 Clubs
9 Diamonds
9 Hearts
10 Clubs
5 Clubs
9 Spades
4 Hearts
J Spades
5 Hearts

E:
Spoiler:
A Clubs
9 Clubs
Q Spades
7 Clubs
8 Clubs
6 Spades
10 Hearts
8 Spades
8 Diamonds
8 Hearts

S:
Spoiler:
JOKER
10 Spades
J Diamonds
7 Hearts
7 Diamonds
4 Diamonds
10 Diamonds
5 Spades
K Diamonds
7 Spades

W:
Spoiler:
K Spades
Q Diamonds
Q Clubs
5 Diamonds
J Clubs
A Diamonds
A Hearts
6 Diamonds
A Spades
K Hearts

Don't look at this yet: The Widow (the 5 remaining cards):
Spoiler:
J Hearts
4 Spades
6 Hearts
K Clubs
Q Hearts


So let's assume that W is the dealer, so N gets the first bid.

What should N bid? Bear in mind that you can see N's partner S's hand, which normally wouldn't be the case, since the hands are sent via PM.


I have to be gone for a few hours, then I'll look at possibilities.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby redwill on Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:48 pm

I'm not looking at the other hands or the widow.

So, arranged, N has

4 Clubs
5 Clubs
6 Clubs
10 Clubs

9 Spades
J Spades

9 Diamonds

4 Hearts
5 Hearts
9 Hearts

This is a mediocre hand, IMO. Nonetheless, it has slim possibilities.

It's a Club hand, obviously, for two reasons:

1) 5 trump: the four Clubs plus the JACK of Spades, which, if the bid is won, becomes the third most powerful trump.

2) Given that the J Spades might become trump, the hand has only one Spade and one Diamond. It might be easy, therefore, to become VOID in those two suits. This is dependent on what the Widow holds, of course, but if you can get void in as many suits as possible, then your trump -- no matter how small -- become trick-takers. Getting VOID in non-trump suits is, IMO, the best play in any hand.

The problems with the hand:

1) None of the trump except the J Spades will take a trump hand (possibly they will, but that's very chancy, since there are five trump higher than the 10 Clubs (Q Clubs, K Clubs, A Clubs, J Clubs, JOKER) which you don't have).

2) There are zero non-trump trick-takers. Often, if you get the bid, you can play non-trump to try and take tricks. So, for example, you might make Clubs trump, but if you have an ace or two of non-trump, you can sometimes take a trick or two. This goes out the window, though, if your opponents are VOID in that suit. So say you play an ace of diamonds. Everyone must follow suit. But what if an opponent is void in diamonds? He is free to play any trump, which will take the trick.

3) It will take a lot of luck to dump those three pathetic Hearts.


The negatives seem to outweigh the positives and so N should consider passing on the bid.

BUT -- an aggressive player might hope that his partner (S) has some of the cards which will help the deficiencies of this hand OR that the Widow will provide some help. But remember that the Widow is named that for a reason: Nothing is more deflating than picking up a Widow that is no help. For example, what if the Widow has Spades and Diamonds? Then you cannot get VOID in those suits. Yer f'd.

Personally, I'd pass. Knowing that the JOKER, the J Clubs, the A Clubs, the K Clubs, the Q Clubs are all out against me, it's not worth it.

BUT -- Sometimes a low Clubs bid is good to send a message to your partner. This is where knowing your partner is important.

BUT -- Any bid will also send a message to your opponents.

This is where non-Bridge games vary from Bridge: In Bridge, bidding continues until there are three consecutive passes. So subtle messages can be sent to your partner via your bid. In 500, there is only ONE round of bidding.

For the sake of argument, let's say N passes.

On to E ...
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby redwill on Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:06 pm

N has passed and E is up to make a bid.

Arranged, E has

7 Clubs
8 Clubs
9 Clubs
A Clubs

6 Spades
8 Spades
Q Spades

8 Diamonds

8 Hearts
10 Hearts


Nothing here, except, again, few Hearts and Diamonds. Easy to get VOID.

But no trump takers except the ace and that's fourth on the list (after JOKER, J Clubs, J Spades).

No non-trump takers. Bleh.

E passes with little thought about it.

On to S ...
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby redwill on Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:26 pm

N and E have passed and it comes to S.

Arranged, S has

JOKER

5 Spades
7 Spades
10 Spades

4 Diamonds
J Diamonds
7 Diamonds
10 Diamonds
K Diamonds

7 Hearts


Not bad at all.

A Diamond hand:

1) The highest possible trump (JOKER) plus five additional trump.

2) Already VOID in Clubs and only one Heart.

Besides the JOKER, the K high is a bit troubling, since there are three other trump which can beat it (J Diamonds, J Hearts, A Diamonds), but it's definitely worth a bid given the hope that S can get VOID in two suits and has a lot of smaller trumps to take the non-trump hands.

Problems are:

1) No signal from S's partner N (since N passed). S will likely need some help on a hand or two if he bids too high.

2) No non-trump takers.

3) What if there are Clubs and Hearts in the Widow and S can't get VOID?

4) Pathetic Spades. If he can't get rid of them (plus the Heart) in the Widow, he's got trouble.


If S had bid before his partner, then maybe a 6 Diamond bid, hoping that, if N could help, N would up the bid to 7 or more.

Since N has already passed and S is alone, then S may take a chance and bid:


7 Diamonds


On to W ...
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby Crankshaft on Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:55 pm

I have no idea what's going on right now.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby redwill on Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:58 pm

Crankshaft wrote:I have no idea what's going on right now.


It's OK, man. I'm on a roll.

Questions and comments are welcome, but sometimes you just gotta plunge in head-first.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby Willie Kool on Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:03 pm

redwill wrote:Besides the JOKER, the K high is a bit troubling, since there are three other trump which can beat it


But S has the J Diamonds.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby Willie Kool on Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:06 pm

redwill wrote:N and E have passed and it comes to S.

Arranged, S has

JOKER

5 Spades
7 Spades
10 Spades

4 Diamonds
J Diamonds
7 Diamonds
10 Diamonds
K Diamonds

7 Hearts


Not bad at all.


You're out of order.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby redwill on Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:07 pm

Willie Kool wrote:
redwill wrote:Besides the JOKER, the K high is a bit troubling, since there are three other trump which can beat it


But S has the J Diamonds.



WHOOPS! I screwed that up!

Thanks.

Will consider and edit.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby redwill on Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:59 pm

WK is right, of course.

S has the TWO highest trumps in a Diamond bid.

Maybe worth an 8 diamond bid, but, without anything from S's partner N, let's say S still only goes with 7 Diamonds.

A lot of this depends on S's thought about what W will do. Will W outbid S? Does W need to?

Interesting.

For the sake of argument, let's say S just goes 7 diamonds.


Thanks again, WK. Totally missed the J Diamonds. That's a big one to miss. Gotta be more careful in the future.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby redwill on Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:04 pm

So N and E have passed, S has bid 7 Diamonds, and it comes to W.

Arranged, W has

J Clubs
Q Clubs

K Spades
A Spades

5 Diamonds
6 Diamonds
Q Diamonds
A Diamonds

K Hearts
A Hearts


Lots of strong cards. Lots of non-trump takers (three aces, two kings, etc.).

W might consider a No Trump bid. A 7 No Trump bid will outbid S's 7 Diamonds.

The key to a No Trump bid is to have a string of takers. It's not perfect with W's hand, but it's definitely possible.

Assuming someone isn't VOID or doesn't become VOID in Spades, Hearts, Diamonds within the first couple of hands, W has five takers right there:

A Spades
A Hearts
A Diamonds
K Spades
K Hearts

W (and his partner) only need two more tricks to take the hand.

The only problem is that the JOKER is out there. If an opponent is VOID in any one of those suits, then he can play the JOKER, win the trick, and take over the hand. Then the player who played the JOKER and won the hand gets to set trump for each trick.

Plus, given W's hand with several Diamonds and a lot of non-trump takers, he may look to turn the tables on S and set S back.


I actually kinda like a No Trump bid for W here, but I think it'll be more instructive to say:


W passes.


So we have:

N: pass
E: pass
S: 7 Diamonds
W: pass


So:

The Widow goes to S.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:04 pm

500 and euchre are my favorite card games. I'm in.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby redwill on Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:29 pm

S has bid 7 Diamonds.

S's original hand:

JOKER

5 Spades
7 Spades
10 Spades

4 Diamonds
7 Diamonds
10 Diamonds
K Diamonds
J Diamonds

7 Hearts


The Widow:

(I'm so excited! I haven't looked at it yet!)

J Hearts
4 Spades
6 Hearts
K Clubs
Q Hearts


S picks up the J Hearts!!

Now has the top three trump!

But needs to get stay VOID in Clubs and get VOID in Hearts.

So:

Discard: K Clubs, 6 Hearts, Q Hearts, 7 Hearts, 4 Spades.

Leaving a hand of:

JOKER

5 Spades
7 Spades
10 Spades

4 Diamonds
7 Diamonds
10 Diamonds
K Diamonds
J Diamonds

J Hearts


OR, ranked in importance:

JOKER
J Diamonds
J Hearts
K Diamonds
10 Diamonds
7 Diamonds
4 Diamonds
10 Spades
7 Spades
5 Spades


Of course, if it had been the A Clubs instead of the K Clubs, then it's a keeper ...


S is looking pretty damn good!


Next: S plays the first card.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby redwill on Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:38 pm

In hindsight, W would have done well to bid No Trump, since his only missing ace was the one useful card his partner (E) had. Also, he would have picked up the K Clubs and Q Hearts and just might have taken 9 tricks (all except the JOKER).

But things sometimes play out strangely. One often has a knucklehead as a partner.

Or, if you lose and think that there is no knucklehead, you may be it!
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby redwill on Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:19 am

So the play begins.

At this point, I'm just going to play the hand out without regard to strategy and without comment, beyond what is necessary. This is just to demonstrate the mechanics of play. I may personally play this hand differently, but it's hard to say since I know what everyone has and that skews everything. Also, I have my own playing style which will differ from others and which I don't necessarily want to give away (more than I already have).

The winning bidder, S, starts play. The winning bid was 7 Diamonds, so Diamonds is trump.

S: JOKER -- Remember that JOKER is trump, which is Diamonds this hand. Everyone MUST follow suit, if he/she can.
W: 5 Diamonds
N: 9 Diamonds
E: 8 Diamonds

^S obviously takes the trick. (North-South:1, East-West:0)

S: J Diamonds
W: 6 Diamonds
N: 4 Clubs -- N is VOID in Diamonds and cannot follow suit
E: 6 Spades -- E is also VOID in Diamonds

^S takes the trick. (NS:2, EW:0)

S: J Hearts -- The J Hearts is the left bower and is trump (Diamonds)
W: Q Diamonds
N: 4 Hearts
E: 7 Clubs

^S takes the trick. (NS:3, EW:0)

S: 4 Diamonds
W: A Diamonds
N: 5 Clubs
E: 8 Clubs

^W takes the trick (NS:3, EW:1) and takes over the play

W: A Spades -- Spades is led; it is not trump, but others MUST follow suit, if they can
N: 9 Spades
E: 8 Spades
S: 5 Spades

^W takes the trick (NS:3, EW:2)

W: K Spades
N: J Spades
E: Q Spades
S: 7 Spades

^W takes the trick (NS:3, EW:3)

W: A Hearts
N: 5 Hearts
E: 8 Hearts
S: 7 Diamonds -- S is VOID in Hearts, so can win the trick with the least of his trumps

^S takes the trick (NS:4, EW:3) and takes over play

S: K Diamonds
W: J Clubs
N: 6 Clubs
E: 9 Clubs

^S takes the trick (NS:5, EW:3)

S: 10 Diamonds
W: Q Clubs
N: 9 Hearts
E: 10 Hearts

^S takes the trick (NS:6, EW:3)

S: 10 Spades
W: K Hearts
N: 10 Clubs
E: A Clubs

^S takes the trick (NS:7, EW:3) since no one can match his Spade lead

S has made his 7 bid. The scoring is now

N-S: 180
E-W: 0


S had no help whatsoever from his partner and was lucky to take the hand. W had a strong trump (A Diamonds) which he was able to hold until it was a taker, and then had two strong Spades to follow it (tough for S since S was not VOID in Spades).


So now N becomes the dealer. The deck is re-shuffled and play begins again with E having the first bid.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby redwill on Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:14 am

One other comment:

E had a horrible hand:

7 Clubs
8 Clubs
9 Clubs
A Clubs
6 Spades
8 Spades
Q Spades
8 Diamonds
8 Hearts
10 Hearts

At this point, E might have considered a nello bid. Nello is bidding that you will lose every hand. It's high-risk, high-reward, since it's worth 250 points if you succeed (and -250 points if you fail).

In this case, the Widow would not have been kind to a nello bid, but it might have been worth it for the excitement.

Our group actually agreed to outlaw nello bids, since I became addicted to the rush of it and would ruin games with wild point swings. Haha.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby Troy Loney on Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:09 am

Juice wrote:I've always played 2s 3s and black 4s are remove, the widow only has 3 cards, and 6 bids don't count. We started scoring at 7 spades and up.


I always played, 7 and up too. Also, I think we played 2,3,4's and black 5's out...but now i need to think about this cause we used a 5 card widow.

45 total cards.

53 in the deck (joker included), need to remove 8 cards. Ok, maybe we just removed 2 & 3's.
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Re: A Card Game: 500

Postby Juice on Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:47 pm

We outlaw nello bids too
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