The "worry about winning" mentality has taken hold

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Postby Jim on Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:43 am

Keep him up... people say they are doing a horrible job in his development.
Send him down... people say they are doing a horrible job in his development.


MAF can't win, he is just F'd! Poor guy...
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Postby borohcky9 on Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:07 pm

First off, Sabourin is not in any way in contention for the back-up job in Pittsburgh. How easily we forget about Thibault.
Second, Fluery should have gotten the opportunity in the first game of the series. He should be considered the go-to guy in WBS. That is the pressure that he needs to feel, so that he can develop into a big game player.

However, i am quite optomistic that Sabourin will not be able to maintain his stellar play, and MAF will get another chance to shine, and shine he will.
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Postby jmh470 on Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:27 pm

MAF has been jerked around his entire Pens career. Therrien himself has been guilty of this multiple times. The way he's been treated you would think that MAF is a border-line ECHL player.
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Postby Jim on Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:58 am

jmh470 wrote:MAF has been jerked around his entire Pens career. Therrien himself has been guilty of this multiple times. The way he's been treated you would think that MAF is a border-line ECHL player.


Or maybe he is actually a professional hockey player that actually understands how 20 year old goaltenders are actually handled... as opposed to being a 6 year old little kid with an extremely fragile psyche as most people seem to think he is...

I wonder which... hmmmm
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Postby Vanbiesbrouck on Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:11 am

Yeah, I'm with Jim. Perhaps the organization hasn't handled the MAF situation as it would be best for the team. However, saying that he deserves better and that he should pick up and leave town or whatever is getting absurd. His job is to play hockey, and for what he gets paid even when he's playing at WB/S, he should go play at Blade Runners on a pickup team and be happy about it if that's what he's told to do. He finally started to prove himself the last few games of this season, so give him a shot now to continue that. Up until this point, it's been flashes of brilliance mixed in with a lot of mediocre play and gigantic rebounds.
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Postby Jesse on Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:36 pm

The Futuristic Bird wrote:I just think's its simple: the goalie you project as your future backstop has to play. NHL, AHL, wherever you send him, he has to play. Period.


What about the rest of the team? What about Welch, Fernholm, Lannon, Talbot, Christensen, Filewich and the rest of the guys?

You obviously don't care much about the development of other players. I am so tired of reading people whine about MAF. MAF didn't win, Sabourin did. Sabourin shut out the opposition and gave the ENTIRE TEAM, ALL OF WHOM ARE POSSIBLY MEMEBERS of the FUTURE of the franchise a chance to win. Many members of the team would benefit greatly from a successful calder cup run. Let's not forget that.

This goes past MAF. It goes to Welch and all the other youngsters that would benefit GREATLY from a Calder Cup, regardless of what goalie takes them there.
Last edited by Jesse on Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jesse on Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:39 pm

borohcky9 wrote:First off, Sabourin is not in any way in contention for the back-up job in Pittsburgh. How easily we forget about Thibault.
Second, Fluery should have gotten the opportunity in the first game of the series. He should be considered the go-to guy in WBS. That is the pressure that he needs to feel, so that he can develop into a big game player.

However, i am quite optomistic that Sabourin will not be able to maintain his stellar play, and MAF will get another chance to shine, and shine he will.


Don't hold your breath. If you followed the AHL at all you'd know Sabourin has played this way virtually all year. He's the best goalie in that league, statistically. So you're hope that he'll get ousted by MAF doesn't hold much fire with the coach n' co. down there in WB/S. While MAF was in Pittsburgh, Sabourin was the man. He's still the man, regardless of whether our season is over or not.

Will MAF get another nod? Yes. If he plays a great game, will he go again? Probably. Until that time comes, I'm more concerned about a team that has been all hyped all season long to finally win a Calder Cup, and I don't care who the goalie is.
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Postby jmh470 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:18 pm

Jesse wrote:What about the rest of the team? What about Welch, Fernholm, Lannon, Talbot, Christensen, Filewich and the rest of the guys?

You obviously don't care much about the development of other players. I am so tired of reading people whine about MAF. MAF didn't win, Sabourin did. Sabourin shut out the opposition and gave the ENTIRE TEAM, ALL OF WHOM ARE POSSIBLY MEMEBERS of the FUTURE of the franchise a chance to win. Many members of the team would benefit greatly from a successful calder cup run. Let's not forget that.

This goes past MAF. It goes to Welch and all the other youngsters that would benefit GREATLY from a Calder Cup, regardless of what goalie takes them there.


You are making the Calder Cup sound like the Stanley Cup. Winning is important to young players but you are making it seem as if their development hinges on winning a trinket. All of the top prospects in WBS have their sights set on Pittsburgh and are simply trying to demonstrate their quality to the organization; whether that results in a Calder Cup or not is irrelevant. It is individual skill development that matters.
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Postby Jesse on Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:13 pm

jmh470 wrote:
Jesse wrote:What about the rest of the team? What about Welch, Fernholm, Lannon, Talbot, Christensen, Filewich and the rest of the guys?

You obviously don't care much about the development of other players. I am so tired of reading people whine about MAF. MAF didn't win, Sabourin did. Sabourin shut out the opposition and gave the ENTIRE TEAM, ALL OF WHOM ARE POSSIBLY MEMEBERS of the FUTURE of the franchise a chance to win. Many members of the team would benefit greatly from a successful calder cup run. Let's not forget that.

This goes past MAF. It goes to Welch and all the other youngsters that would benefit GREATLY from a Calder Cup, regardless of what goalie takes them there.


You are making the Calder Cup sound like the Stanley Cup. Winning is important to young players but you are making it seem as if their development hinges on winning a trinket. All of the top prospects in WBS have their sights set on Pittsburgh and are simply trying to demonstrate their quality to the organization; whether that results in a Calder Cup or not is irrelevant. It is individual skill development that matters.


It isn't just me. It's about winning, you learn a lot when you take a championship. That's what's important for the players. Individual skill development hinges on Games Played. So, therefore, if MAF plays 4 straight and the team gets eliminated, no one learns anything. I want the team to play as many games as possible on their way to a championship.

If the Calder Cup isn't important, why are people so upset when the team doesn't win it? Why were people so upset when Fleury couldn't get team Canada a gold? After all, if it isn't the Stanley Cup, it doesn't matter. At least by your logic. :roll:
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Postby jmh470 on Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:03 pm

Jesse wrote:If the Calder Cup isn't important, why are people so upset when the team doesn't win it? Why were people so upset when Fleury couldn't get team Canada a gold?:


Who is upset? Everyone who has not tasted Errey's KoolAid knows that MAF is developing just fine.

Will playing 10-15 extra games in the minor league playoffs make or break one's development? I think not. Spezza did not win the Calder, and it doesn't matter to him at all, obviously. Army, Whitney, and Welch (probably) did not win that trinket and it will not matter to them either.


Jesse wrote: After all, if it isn't the Stanley Cup, it doesn't matter. At least by your logic. :roll:


Way to distort what I wrote.

Reading comprehension: try it sometime.
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Postby Jesse on Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:36 am

jmh470 wrote:Who is upset? Everyone who has not tasted Errey's KoolAid knows that MAF is developing just fine.

Will playing 10-15 extra games in the minor league playoffs make or break one's development? I think not. Spezza did not win the Calder, and it doesn't matter to him at all, obviously. Army, Whitney, and Welch (probably) did not win that trinket and it will not matter to them either.


People are upset enough that there are threads being made and other posts about MAF not getting the start. Reading threads: try it sometime.

As for development, I hardly said 'make or break', perhaps you should take your own comprehension advice. What I actually said was the fact that playing in the Calder Cup finals is a learning experience. In any sport, especially hockey, making a championship run teaches you many things. Welch, Christensen et al would benefit greatly from the experience. It's not about the number of games, it's about the conditions in which those games are played.

Also, your "It did not matter..." statement is a dangerous phrase. For one, you need to rethink your reading comprehension statement because I never said that the players would flop if they didn't win the cup, you would like to insinuate that, but I never said it. I said they'd greatly benefit, and only a fool would disagree there. As far as meaning, these are guys who have spent an entire year in the AHL. I highly doubt you would put a year of work into something to have it "not matter" whether or not you win. That's a pretty asinine statement.


jmh470 wrote:Way to distort what I wrote.

Reading comprehension: try it sometime.


What you wrote was a downplay of something that quite a few guys have been playing for all year. I don't think thats fair to the players, the organization, or the league.
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Postby jmh470 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:09 pm

Jesse wrote:People are upset enough that there are threads being made and other posts about MAF not getting the start.


You contradict yourself. In your previous post you said people are upset when the team doesn't win the Calder. You are right when you say that people are upset that MAF isn't playing.

Jesse wrote: It's not about the number of games, it's about the conditions in which those games are played.


With regard to the playoffs, this is correct. This is exactly why MAF should be starting every game.


Futuristic's point about MAF being the most important prospect in WBS is dead on. I would say that MAF is BY FAR the most important player in WBS and should be treated as such. His development should not be secondary to winning a trinket.


Jesse wrote:I highly doubt you would put a year of work into something to have it "not matter" whether or not you win.


You totally misunderstand the purpose of the AHL. The top prospects in WBS primarily are trying to impress in order to earn a recall to the big show.
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Postby Jesse on Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:02 pm

jmh470 wrote:You contradict yourself. In your previous post you said people are upset when the team doesn't win the Calder. You are right when you say that people are upset that MAF isn't playing.


Not exactly. I was responding to your statement about people "not complaining" about MAF not starting. I stand by what I said earlier. Therefore, by simply pointing out the fact that there are some people upset about MAF not starting, I hardly contradict myself.

jmh470 wrote:With regard to the playoffs, this is correct. This is exactly why MAF should be starting every game. Futuristic's point about MAF being the most important prospect in WBS is dead on. I would say that MAF is BY FAR the most important player in WBS and should be treated as such. His development should not be secondary to winning a trinket.


So, hypothetically, if we start him every game and get swept, it was all worth it to you? Nah, I don't think there are many people who would agree with that. What good does that do the other players on the roster? While MAF's development may be important, you cannot simply write off all the other prospects, which is what you're doing. Splitting time with Dany, whoever has the hot hand goes, is the right way to do it. It's the way Mullen is doing it. As I said, it does no one any good to throw MAF in there if he's not playing well. No one learns anything. He's been subjected to that many times before.

jmh470 wrote:You totally misunderstand the purpose of the AHL. The top prospects in WBS primarily are trying to impress in order to earn a recall to the big show.


No, I'm not. Trust me, I know what the purpose of the AHL is. What you're insinuating is that no one in that club cares whether or not they win the Calder Cup, the "trinket" as you refer to it. I'm sorry, but you've obviously never played any sport of any kind. If you put yourself into something for 60+ games, you're damn well going to care whether or not you win. I don't care if it's the Stanley Cup, the Calder Cup, the Kelly Cup, or the damn Island Cup, you've put your sweat and blood into it. Sure, you want a roster spot, but why go home in the first round after spending an entire year trying to win and succeed? In hockey, you have pride and you try. You can't seriously be sitting here and saying that these guys are just playing for a roster spot. Yeah, they are, but once you play an entire season somewhere, you'd like to end it with something to show for it.

Try telling the people in WB/S that the Calder Cup is a trinket. Try telling guys like Christensen and even Colby Armstrong that it's a trinket. Hell, even ask MT. Go to a game in Wilkes-Barre before you speak, then you'll see. You'd be insulting a lot of people with your ignorant attitude.
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Postby jmh470 on Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:24 pm

Jesse wrote:Try telling the people in WB/S that the Calder Cup is a trinket. Try telling guys like Christensen and even Colby Armstrong that it's a trinket. Hell, even ask MT. Go to a game in Wilkes-Barre before you speak, then you'll see. You'd be insulting a lot of people with your ignorant attitude.


Do you really think Army cares about the Calder? I bet he is counting the seconds until next season when (presumably) he is back on Crosby's wing.

Look, our ideologies on this issue obviously differ. I support playing the most important prospects, win or lose, so that they will develop in terms of skill and maturity. You seem to support building a winning atmosphere despite who is playing. Let's leave it at that.
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Postby Jesse on Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:56 pm

jmh470 wrote:
Jesse wrote:Try telling the people in WB/S that the Calder Cup is a trinket. Try telling guys like Christensen and even Colby Armstrong that it's a trinket. Hell, even ask MT. Go to a game in Wilkes-Barre before you speak, then you'll see. You'd be insulting a lot of people with your ignorant attitude.


Do you really think Army cares about the Calder? I bet he is counting the seconds until next season when (presumably) he is back on Crosby's wing.

Look, our ideologies on this issue obviously differ. I support playing the most important prospects, win or lose, so that they will develop in terms of skill and maturity. You seem to support building a winning atmosphere despite who is playing. Let's leave it at that.


Hey, sometimes we agree to disagree. I'm not trying to be rude, just defending my position.
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Postby Daniel on Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:18 pm

The Futuristic Bird wrote:Giving Fleury experience in the Calder Cup playoffs, and getting a feel for what this is like and being successful in this environment, before he gets the chance to taste the Stanley Cup playoffs can only be seen as a positive for his development.


Brodeur
AHL playoff stats: 4 games 1-3 4.18
QMJHL playoff stats: 21 games 7-14 3.71

MAF
AHL playoff stats: 6 games 0-3 4.19
QMJHL playoff stats: 26 games 10-15 3.52

I don't know if MAF will have Brodeur's NHL success, but Brodeur didn't have much success in the minor league playoffs.
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