Pitt versus Bradley - Gateway to Sweet Sixteen

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Postby Bowser on Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:29 pm

I agree but if they want to sell contenders for NCAA title to their recruits, they must stop schedule creampuffs like St Francis and St Peter's. Frankly, they should dump Penn State because they provide nothing for PITT other than embarrassing the JoePA Administration.
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Postby Draftnik on Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:38 pm

SportsFan wrote:If they can add 2-3 ranked teams to there Non Conference schedule, but Xavier, Penn, and Kent State adds nothing.


Disagree. Look at the MVC. They made a conscious effort to minimize sub 150 RPI teams from their OOC schedule and it elevated the overall level of RPI's in their conference immensely. Pitt would get better seeding if they played less sub 200 RPI cellar dwellers. None of that would have helped them beat a 13 seed today. Pitt also would have to give 100-150 RPI teams more $$$ for games which probably is the primary reason they play such loser OOC schools.
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Postby Goalie on Sun Mar 19, 2006 7:46 pm

Bowser wrote:I agree but if they want to sell contenders for NCAA title to their recruits, they must stop schedule creampuffs like St Francis and St Peter's. Frankly, they should dump Penn State because they provide nothing for PITT other than embarrassing the JoePA Administration.


At 15-15 with an NIT bid PSU was probably one of the better teams Pitt played out of conference.

I do not think the teams are playing each other next year which is a shame because now Pitt fans will have to come up with another time to rehash all the hate for JoePa about why the teams do not play in football.

What is funny though is that when all the talk goes on no one mentions how many straight years PSU played at Pitt and considering that PSU fans are going to buy the tickets to make the games sellouts anyway why not play it more often in the place that holds more people?
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Postby SportsFan on Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:15 pm

Draftnik wrote:
SportsFan wrote:If they can add 2-3 ranked teams to there Non Conference schedule, but Xavier, Penn, and Kent State adds nothing.


Disagree. Look at the MVC. They made a conscious effort to minimize sub 150 RPI teams from their OOC schedule and it elevated the overall level of RPI's in their conference immensely. Pitt would get better seeding if they played less sub 200 RPI cellar dwellers. None of that would have helped them beat a 13 seed today. Pitt also would have to give 100-150 RPI teams more $$$ for games which probably is the primary reason they play such loser OOC schools.


Couldnt disgaree more.. You are comparing the MVC to the Big East. Pitt played a horrible OOC Schedule, but still had a decent RPI due to the killer Big East schedule.

MVC teams did this cause there conference schedule was a joke, Why do you think Gonzaga plays a tuff OOC Schedule?

Michigan State did this a few years ago. They played a killer OOC Schedule, then feel apart during the season.

Play 2-3 good OOC teams and your Big East schedule and you will be fine.
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Postby pfim on Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:23 pm

Goalie wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
Goalie wrote:The NCAA committee chair should get to interview Nantz and Packer right now and ask them how they feel about the MVC now.


http://www.letsgopens.com/scripts/phpBB ... php?t=1317


I think some people owe Gonzaga an apology too. :D


Yep, they've looked great so far :roll:
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Postby Draftnik on Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:38 pm

SportsFan wrote:
Draftnik wrote:
SportsFan wrote:If they can add 2-3 ranked teams to there Non Conference schedule, but Xavier, Penn, and Kent State adds nothing.


Disagree. Look at the MVC. They made a conscious effort to minimize sub 150 RPI teams from their OOC schedule and it elevated the overall level of RPI's in their conference immensely. Pitt would get better seeding if they played less sub 200 RPI cellar dwellers. None of that would have helped them beat a 13 seed today. Pitt also would have to give 100-150 RPI teams more $$$ for games which probably is the primary reason they play such loser OOC schools.


Couldnt disgaree more.. You are comparing the MVC to the Big East. Pitt played a horrible OOC Schedule, but still had a decent RPI due to the killer Big East schedule.

MVC teams did this cause there conference schedule was a joke, Why do you think Gonzaga plays a tuff OOC Schedule?

Michigan State did this a few years ago. They played a killer OOC Schedule, then feel apart during the season.

Play 2-3 good OOC teams and your Big East schedule and you will be fine.


Pitt's OOC schedule has held their NCAA seeding down repeatedly. Neither of us know if higher seeding would have helped them advance further in the NCAA tourney, but they obviously have been ill equipped to compete with tourney caliber OOC teams compared to how well they've held up vs. tourney caliber BE teams. I know all about Gonzaga and the OOC schedule they play. The good teams they play help battle harden their squad as much as it boosts their RPI.

You also are misinterpreting my point about OOC scheduling. If you look closely at the MVC OOC scheduling you will find that they played a much smaller number of BCS schools than most other conferences. I think the number was ~ 10. What they did to boost their collective RPI though was eliminate a number of games versus sub 150 type programs. That is why their RPI was so high this season. It wasn't from playing the BE & ACC on a nightly basis. Pitt gains nothing by playing the 5+ games versus sub 200-250 RPI teams every season. If they replaced those games versus teams in the 150 range they would be better off from all perspectives.
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:56 pm

Draftnik wrote: If you look closely at the MVC OOC scheduling you will find that they played a much smaller number of BCS schools than most other conferences. I think the number was ~ 10. What they did to boost their collective RPI though was eliminate a number of games versus sub 150 type programs. That is why their RPI was so high this season.


I can't take any shots at the MVC. Heck, other than the Big East, they have as many, or more, teams left in the tourney than any other conference.

Big East - Four teams
ACC - Two teams
SEC - Two teams
MVC - Two teams
Pac 10 - Two teams

Big 12, ACC, Colonial, Conf USA - One team each

And some notables are missing. No Big Ten, No Atlantic 10, etc...
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Postby ville5 on Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:29 pm

%@#$%@$@%^^%&*&*@!!!%^#& PITT. Pitt su#ks!!
There goes my lead, my bracket and any chance of winning. :x :x
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Postby SportsFan on Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:53 pm

Draftnik wrote:
SportsFan wrote:
Draftnik wrote:
SportsFan wrote:If they can add 2-3 ranked teams to there Non Conference schedule, but Xavier, Penn, and Kent State adds nothing.


Disagree. Look at the MVC. They made a conscious effort to minimize sub 150 RPI teams from their OOC schedule and it elevated the overall level of RPI's in their conference immensely. Pitt would get better seeding if they played less sub 200 RPI cellar dwellers. None of that would have helped them beat a 13 seed today. Pitt also would have to give 100-150 RPI teams more $$$ for games which probably is the primary reason they play such loser OOC schools.


Couldnt disgaree more.. You are comparing the MVC to the Big East. Pitt played a horrible OOC Schedule, but still had a decent RPI due to the killer Big East schedule.

MVC teams did this cause there conference schedule was a joke, Why do you think Gonzaga plays a tuff OOC Schedule?

Michigan State did this a few years ago. They played a killer OOC Schedule, then feel apart during the season.

Play 2-3 good OOC teams and your Big East schedule and you will be fine.


Pitt's OOC schedule has held their NCAA seeding down repeatedly. Neither of us know if higher seeding would have helped them advance further in the NCAA tourney, but they obviously have been ill equipped to compete with tourney caliber OOC teams compared to how well they've held up vs. tourney caliber BE teams. I know all about Gonzaga and the OOC schedule they play. The good teams they play help battle harden their squad as much as it boosts their RPI.

You also are misinterpreting my point about OOC scheduling. If you look closely at the MVC OOC scheduling you will find that they played a much smaller number of BCS schools than most other conferences. I think the number was ~ 10. What they did to boost their collective RPI though was eliminate a number of games versus sub 150 type programs. That is why their RPI was so high this season. It wasn't from playing the BE & ACC on a nightly basis. Pitt gains nothing by playing the 5+ games versus sub 200-250 RPI teams every season. If they replaced those games versus teams in the 150 range they would be better off from all perspectives.


This year the loss to Seton Hall was huge in them getting a 5 seed, but after watching the game on Sunday, did they deserve a higher seed?

Right now RPI means nothing, alot of people complained Geroge Mason played nobody and had no business being in the tourney, but look at what they did.

They could easily get to the elite 8, as they are playing at home basically in D.C. They also beat Witchy State already this season.
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:59 pm

SportsFan wrote:alot of people complained Geroge Mason played nobody and had no business being in the tourney, but look at what they did.

They could easily get to the elite 8, as they are playing at home basically in D.C. They also beat Witchy State already this season.


I don't think people were saying GM wasn't good enough to play in the tourney, just that if GM got in, so should've Hofstra (Who beat them twice in the two weeks leading up to the CAA conference tourney).

One thing this years Tourney has proved is that the gap between the big and little programs has really shrunk. I think that's because if your a good player you don't have to go to an ACC or Big East school for exposure anymore. With all of the media focus the last few years, you can go to a MVC or CAA school and still catch the eye of the press and NBA scouts.
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Postby Draftnik on Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:27 pm

SportsFan wrote:This year the loss to Seton Hall was huge in them getting a 5 seed, but after watching the game on Sunday, did they deserve a higher seed?

Right now RPI means nothing, alot of people complained Geroge Mason played nobody and had no business being in the tourney, but look at what they did.

They could easily get to the elite 8, as they are playing at home basically in D.C. They also beat Witchy State already this season.


George Mason had a top 30 RPI. That doesn't mean they will make the Sweet 16, but it most certainly is the only reason they made the tourney. We will agree to disagree. You still have not explained how Pitt scheduling crappy RPI teams like Maine, Coppin St, St. Francis NY, etc benefits the program. There will be years like this past season where other crap teams like Duquesne and Vermont have their RPIs bottom out and it really hurts Pitt's seeding as well as the preparation they have versus out of conference competition. If Pitt's goal is to merely make the tourney they can keep scheduling lightweight teams. That mode of preparation has not served them well when they venture outside the Big East.

The MVC figured out how to work the RPI system without playing a back-breaker OOC schedule. They eliminate the bottom feeders, still stuff the schedule with winnable games, and mix in a few quality, but not brutal road games. Their RPIs went through the roof and their teams were prepared very well for non-conference competition in the NCAA tourney. It looks like a winning formula from all angles.

If Pitt wants to do more than just make the NCAA tourney they need to examine all aspects of their program from recruiting, coaching, style of play, OOC scheduling, etc.
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:13 pm

Draftnik wrote:George Mason had a top 30 RPI. That doesn't mean they will make the Sweet 16, but it most certainly is the only reason they made the tourney.


Not the ONLY Reason.

I'm thinking that the connections the program had to two members of the selection comittee helped just a little as well. Selection committee chairman Craig Littlepage worked with George Mason coach Jim Larranaga on Terry Hollands staff at Virginia and George Masons athletic director Tom O'Connor is also on the selection committee.

So I'm thinking that there's more to the story than a 30 RPI.

(Now before anyone gets ugly about the fact that GM made the Sweet 16. I know, I'm not saying they didn;t deserve to be there, just that some other programs deserved it more - like Hofstra, who beat GM twice in the last month.)
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Postby Draftnik on Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:07 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
Draftnik wrote:George Mason had a top 30 RPI. That doesn't mean they will make the Sweet 16, but it most certainly is the only reason they made the tourney.


Not the ONLY Reason.

I'm thinking that the connections the program had to two members of the selection comittee helped just a little as well. Selection committee chairman Craig Littlepage worked with George Mason coach Jim Larranaga on Terry Hollands staff at Virginia and George Masons athletic director Tom O'Connor is also on the selection committee.

So I'm thinking that there's more to the story than a 30 RPI.

(Now before anyone gets ugly about the fact that GM made the Sweet 16. I know, I'm not saying they didn;t deserve to be there, just that some other programs deserved it more - like Hofstra, who beat GM twice in the last month.)


Yeah, I posted a link in an earlier thread to the bios of the selection committee a few weeks ago. My point was more to the relevancy or lack thereof of the RPI and how the committee could use it for cover when granting GM an at large bid. It definitely is an important factor when considering the resume for at large candidates.

GM was the regular season CAA champion. UNCW won the conference tourney. Hofstra needed to win one of those to get the bid.
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:18 pm

Draftnik wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
Draftnik wrote:George Mason had a top 30 RPI. That doesn't mean they will make the Sweet 16, but it most certainly is the only reason they made the tourney.


Not the ONLY Reason.

I'm thinking that the connections the program had to two members of the selection comittee helped just a little as well. Selection committee chairman Craig Littlepage worked with George Mason coach Jim Larranaga on Terry Hollands staff at Virginia and George Masons athletic director Tom O'Connor is also on the selection committee.

So I'm thinking that there's more to the story than a 30 RPI.

(Now before anyone gets ugly about the fact that GM made the Sweet 16. I know, I'm not saying they didn;t deserve to be there, just that some other programs deserved it more - like Hofstra, who beat GM twice in the last month.)


Yeah, I posted a link in an earlier thread to the bios of the selection committee a few weeks ago. My point was more to the relevancy or lack thereof of the RPI and how the committee could use it for cover when granting GM an at large bid. It definitely is an important factor when considering the resume for at large candidates.

GM was the regular season CAA champion. UNCW won the conference tourney. Hofstra needed to win one of those to get the bid.


I don't know how accurate my information is, but one of the leading sports talk shows in the nation "Mike and the Mad Dog" Yes Network, has a show right before selection Sunday where they touted the fact that no team with an RPI of less than 30 had ever been passed over for the field of 64.

Hofstra had a 24.

I'm not a huge Hofstra fan, but it just seems wrong the way the selection committee went about things this year. The fact that so many of the small conference teams and 'cinderella picks' made it to the Sweet 16 has taken most of the pressure off of the committee - UNFORTUNATELY. I don't think the success of those programs was due to the selection committe but rather the changing dynamics that collegiate parity has brought to the tourney this year.
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Postby Rocco on Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:39 pm

I don't know how accurate my information is, but one of the leading sports talk shows in the nation "Mike and the Mad Dog" Yes Network, has a show right before selection Sunday where they touted the fact that no team with an RPI of less than 30 had ever been passed over for the field of 64.

Hofstra had a 24.


Missouri St. had a higher RPI than Hofstra, so it's pretty obvious that the committee didn't go straight off the RPI. They've got more of a claim to a bid than Hofstra. Also, according to Collegerpi.com, George Mason had a higher RPI and a tougher schedule. Maybe Hofstra beat GMU, but GMU was better over the course of the season. GMU has no bad losses; Hofstra lost to Towson. I'm not sure why we're going to conspiracy theories as to how GMU made the tourney when GMU was the more qualified team.
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Postby Draftnik on Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:45 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:I don't know how accurate my information is, but one of the leading sports talk shows in the nation "Mike and the Mad Dog" Yes Network, has a show right before selection Sunday where they touted the fact that no team with an RPI of less than 30 had ever been passed over for the field of 64.

Hofstra had a 24.

I'm not a huge Hofstra fan, but it just seems wrong the way the selection committee went about things this year. The fact that so many of the small conference teams and 'cinderella picks' made it to the Sweet 16 has taken most of the pressure off of the committee - UNFORTUNATELY. I don't think the success of those programs was due to the selection committe but rather the changing dynamics that collegiate parity has brought to the tourney this year.


I happened to be driving to the Pens game that Sunday evening and heard Mike & the Mad Dog syndicated on Westwood One on ESPN 1250, so I do remember them complaining about Hofstra. It struck me as a bit of homerism since they are NY based. According to Jerry Palm's collegerpi site:

http://www.collegerpi.com/

Hofstra had an RPI of 30 and a SOS of 129.
Missouri State had an RPI of 21 and a SOS of 46
Cincinnati had an RPI of 40 and a SOS of 5

IMO Hofstra has less of a case than either one of those schools. The only decent OOC teams they played were Notre Dame & St. Johns. Neither of them made the tourney. Wins at St. Johns & LaSalle are decent road OOC wins. The new RPI places a very high premium on road wins, so that is probably the reason Hofstra's RPI is so high. They seem to have figured out the system, much like the MVC teams since they really didn't play a challenging schedule, they play in a mediocre conference, and they still have a very high RPI.

The CAA appears to play an unbalanced schedule since Hofstra did not travel to George Mason (home & neutral wins), so that probably played into GM getting the at-large bid. The whole process is very subjective so we'll never be able to decisively say why any of this happened.
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Postby Goalie on Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:34 pm

pfim wrote:
Goalie wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
Goalie wrote:The NCAA committee chair should get to interview Nantz and Packer right now and ask them how they feel about the MVC now.


http://www.letsgopens.com/scripts/phpBB ... php?t=1317


I think some people owe Gonzaga an apology too. :D


Yep, they've looked great so far :roll:


Well they were called "the poster child for overrated" and supposed to be "one and done" and the last I checked they are still playing.

In reality all they have done is hold their seed and beat two teams they are supposed to beat. Then again as we have found out beating teams you are ranked ahead of, sometimes way ahead of, is not the easiest thing in the world.

Gonzaga also won a game where its leading scorer scored 1/2 of his season average which proved they are more than a man show. Then again they beat a Big 10 team and everyone is beating Big 10 teams lately.
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:39 am

Draftnik wrote:I happened to be driving to the Pens game that Sunday evening and heard Mike & the Mad Dog syndicated on Westwood One on ESPN 1250, so I do remember them complaining about Hofstra. It struck me as a bit of homerism since they are NY based.


Absolutely! There's no doubt about that. NY sports radio thinks of itself as a national leader, yet they really only concern themselves with NY based teams. I guess that's only natrual, but I wish they'd quit patting themselves on the back about non-NY coverage.

I think it's absolutely disgusting that I can turn on the radio up here in January and there's more baseball talk than hockey talk.

The other thng that drives me crazy up here is that they think they have the best Sports coverage in the nation, yet they don't have a single College football team outside of Rutgers and only St. Johns and Hofstra in BBall.

Draftnik wrote:According to Jerry Palm's collegerpi site:

http://www.collegerpi.com/

Hofstra had an RPI of 30 and a SOS of 129.
Missouri State had an RPI of 21 and a SOS of 46
Cincinnati had an RPI of 40 and a SOS of 5

IMO Hofstra has less of a case than either one of those schools. The only decent OOC teams they played were Notre Dame & St. Johns. Neither of them made the tourney. Wins at St. Johns & LaSalle are decent road OOC wins. The new RPI places a very high premium on road wins, so that is probably the reason Hofstra's RPI is so high. They seem to have figured out the system, much like the MVC teams since they really didn't play a challenging schedule, they play in a mediocre conference, and they still have a very high RPI.


Yeah, CBS's site must have bad data, or maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

My bad.

http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/polls/rpi
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Postby pfim on Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:54 am

Goalie wrote:
pfim wrote:
Goalie wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
Goalie wrote:The NCAA committee chair should get to interview Nantz and Packer right now and ask them how they feel about the MVC now.


http://www.letsgopens.com/scripts/phpBB ... php?t=1317


I think some people owe Gonzaga an apology too. :D


Yep, they've looked great so far :roll:


Well they were called "the poster child for overrated" and supposed to be "one and done" and the last I checked they are still playing.

In reality all they have done is hold their seed and beat two teams they are supposed to beat. Then again as we have found out beating teams you are ranked ahead of, sometimes way ahead of, is not the easiest thing in the world.

Gonzaga also won a game where its leading scorer scored 1/2 of his season average which proved they are more than a man show. Then again they beat a Big 10 team and everyone is beating Big 10 teams lately.


Making it further in the tournament than Pitt doesn't make them less overrated. Indiana was a good win, they should have creamed Xavier, and watching that game, Xavier choked at the offensive end of the floor in the last two minutes.
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Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:03 am

Goalie wrote:Well they were called "the poster child for overrated" and supposed to be "one and done" and the last I checked they are still playing.


Yes and if you go back and read my prior post in this thread, I apologized for the 'one and done' comment and gave them props for doing better than expected.

What do you want? A full page ad in the NYT?

Gonzaga exceeding expectations is not much different than Iowa, Kansas, Syracuse etc not meeting their expectations. That's what makes the tourney so fun to watch. How much fun would it be if there were no upsets?

Gonzaga has a decent chance against UCLA, UCLA has a starter injured.

Farmar's injury.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cct ... 157765.htm

Even so, I'll still predict that Gonzaga loses. That'd make 'em "Three and Done" right? :-)
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Postby Goalie on Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:11 pm

pfim wrote:Making it further in the tournament than Pitt doesn't make them less overrated. Indiana was a good win, they should have creamed Xavier, and watching that game, Xavier choked at the offensive end of the floor in the last two minutes.


At what point do they become less overrated? They were deemed to be one of the best 12 teams in the country and they have advanced to the Sweet 16. In all honesty they should have beaten Xavier handily but as we have seen March brings out the best in teams who play with nothing to lose. Especially a team like Xavier who had just completed a less than probable run through the A-10 tournament.

It has nothing to do with advancing farther than Pitt, it just is the fact that they held their seed and I pointed out that holding your seed is not as easy as it seems as Kansas, UNC, Pitt and others have proved.
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