LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Shyster on Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:03 pm

redwill wrote:Ugh. You're right on that. I had NPR on in another room and every time I went through there (over the course of what seemed like hours), he was still talking.

I was curious, so I tracked down a video of Rev. King's original speech. It was less than 10 minutes. And I admit I don't care at all for Abraham Lincoln, but the two-minute-long Gettysburg Address is one of the finest examples of English oratory. More is not better; a pity the president did not follow that maxim today.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Grunthy on Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:37 pm

Factorial wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:A good CEO keeps his company focused on the things the company does right and cuts the fat out of his/her organization. I don't see why a good POTUS shouldn't operate the same way.

One of my favorite RR quotes went something like this: "Governement isn't the solution, Government is the problem"

InB4 the "Ronald Reagan was Big Government" arguments.


Because a country is not a company? Not everything is profit driven?



You are right, because bankrupting a country is a good thing and bankrupting a company is a bad thing... :face: A country doesn't need to generate a profit, but it should try and balance its budget just like any other business.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Kaizer on Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:46 pm

when you can just say "no, were not bankrupt", and make it true, why bother?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:48 pm

Shyster wrote:
GSdrums87 wrote:So building roads and raising an army?

Private companies can build roads, and the only purpose of an army for a minarchist state would be self-defense, as the government would adhere to the nonaggression principle. For self-defense, I prefer a heavily armed populate.


Hey Clem, look at that there plane droppin bombs on your property. Better get your shot gun out.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:52 pm

Grunthy wrote:
Factorial wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:A good CEO keeps his company focused on the things the company does right and cuts the fat out of his/her organization. I don't see why a good POTUS shouldn't operate the same way.

One of my favorite RR quotes went something like this: "Governement isn't the solution, Government is the problem"

InB4 the "Ronald Reagan was Big Government" arguments.


Because a country is not a company? Not everything is profit driven?



You are right, because bankrupting a country is a good thing and bankrupting a company is a bad thing... :face: A country doesn't need to generate a profit, but it should try and balance its budget just like any other business.


And where in my post did I indicate that a country should or shouldn't try and balance their budget? :face:
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Grunthy on Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:31 pm

Never said you did indicate.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Shyster on Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:22 pm

Factorial wrote:Hey Clem, look at that there plane droppin bombs on your property. Better get your shot gun out.

And why would that plane be dropping bombs in the first place? A noninterventionist minarchist state wouldn't be butting into other countries' business in the first place, and that is often what invites or triggers war.

If keeping the heck out of other nations' business was an invitation for attack, the Swiss would have been getting their butts kicked for decades. But they haven't been in an international conflict since the Napoleonic Wars almost 200 years ago.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:40 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:A good CEO keeps his company focused on the things the company does right and cuts the fat out of his/her organization. I don't see why a good POTUS shouldn't operate the same way.

Because a business and the government are two rather different enterprises. The scope of what the latter is expected to do - even at its most stripped down level - is so far beyond what even the biggest private company can do is..... well, it's like comparing apples to asteroids. After all, a significant chunk of what drives that search for eliminating inefficiencies is competition. And there are too many things the government does wastefully for which there is not - nor should there ever be - a competitive alternative. (The Navy comes to mind here)

The most interesting piece I've seen on the subject breaks it down to three inherent conflicts: Profit vs. People, Shareholders vs. Citizens, Customers vs. Constituents.


You haven't articulated why a good PoTUS shouldn't cut the fat out of inefficient government services/processes.

He or She most certainly should.

The military is not a good example. The FDA or the Dept. of HHS might be.

Factorial wrote:
Because a country is not a company? Not everything is profit driven?


Where did I say it was?

Operating efficiencies don't have to be profit related to have merit.

Shyster wrote:
Factorial wrote:Hey Clem, look at that there plane droppin bombs on your property. Better get your shot gun out.

And why would that plane be dropping bombs in the first place? A noninterventionist minarchist state wouldn't be butting into other countries' business in the first place, and that is often what invites or triggers war.

If keeping the heck out of other nations' business was an invitation for attack, the Swiss would have been getting their butts kicked for decades. But they haven't been in an international conflict since the Napoleonic Wars almost 200 years ago.


While I agree with the general tone of your post, the example of Sadam invading Kuwait comes to mind. Kuwait never interfered with Iraq (to my knowledge) but they had something Sadam wanted. So non-interference isn't fool proof.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:48 pm

Factorial wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
Factorial wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:Kerry: Chemical weapons were used in Syria, accuses Assad of destroying evidence

- Washington Post

Story to follow


What would President EPP do in this situation?


First of all, EPP would decline the nomination.

However one thing I have learned, is NEVER telegraph your intentions. If we haven't learned by now, "jaw boning" despots doesn't work.


FamilyFued wrote:Good answer (clap, clap, clap).


http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... ria_attack
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby redwill on Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:02 pm

Shyster wrote:the only purpose of an army for a minarchist state would be self-defense, as the government would adhere to the nonaggression principle. For self-defense, I prefer a heavily armed populate.

Shyster wrote:And why would that plane be dropping bombs in the first place? A noninterventionist minarchist state wouldn't be butting into other countries' business in the first place, and that is often what invites or triggers war.


I go back and forth on this. I wonder if the need for a strong military with global reach isn't a result of economics. After all, it seems that, for at least the past 100 years, most of our foreign policy -- backed by the military -- has been for the purpose of securing, protecting, and guaranteeing resources and (more importantly) overseas markets for our goods. The goal is global hegemony, but of an economic sort, rather than a military one.

So maybe isolationism -- or call it noninterventionism if you like -- would be bad for the economy. I don't think the Swiss model is at all helpful since they're deep in the heart of an economic infrastructure that goes back thousands of years. Plus their economy is no where near the size of ours. We need a lot more stuff from a lot more places for a lot more people.

A more interesting comparison might be China. They have truly global economic reach and, though they have a large and powerful military, it's not really projected globally -- at least not yet. But then China has a lot of economic advantages -- like slave labor and an enslaved market (us) -- that we don't have.

Do you think that we need to reduce our global economic interdependence? Because, if not, we may not be able to let up on the global military presence.

Just some thoughts on an interesting question.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby redwill on Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:10 pm

Just how many dashes -- and by "dashes" I mean "--" -- does one post need?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:43 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:You haven't articulated why a good PoTUS shouldn't cut the fat out of inefficient government services/processes.

He or She most certainly should.

The military is not a good example. The FDA or the Dept. of HHS might be.

The government certainly can (and should) drastically reduce its spending; I'm on record here saying that POTUS Tif would begin his administration by ordering every branch of the federal government to identify 20% in cost reductions within six months. And that would be a baseline. Some departments could probably end the cutting there. Other departments - like DHS and DoD - would be required to go even further. Within a year, given targeted and genuine budget analysis, I don't see why the budget couldn't be brought into balance.

But I don't understand why you say the military is not a good example, because they are the poster child for government overspending. In terms of value for dollar, I'd say defense acquisition is probably the single least effective government program in the history of the republic, especially when you consider the eye watering dollar amounts involved. And there isn't even any need to go down my favorite rabbit hole for this; we've all heard the stories about the $900 hammer and the $500 toilet seat and the $1,100 an E-3 crew chief was billed when he ordered two plastic caps for the extendable leg on a fold-down seat (they're about the size of a thumb nail). Even without adjusting for inflation, you figure 25 of today's dollars for a decent claw hammer, up against the $900 the DoD was paying...... that's a 36x overspend for the same product! And those are hardly outlier examples.

I don't know how anyone can keep a straight face in light of that kind of rampant abuse and say "Oh, well that's not a good example". It's the perfect example.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:46 am

"Not a good example" within the context you created of "free market competition"

So you DO agree with my original assertion that a good PoTUS should act like a good CEO and work to make Governement more efficient.

Seems to me that a president who understands that government should be limited and efficient is pretty much a given then.

Sounds pretty libertarian to me.

Remember The executive branch is but one of three branches of the Federal Governement .

While I wouldn't propose that all three be filled with Libertarians (or be from any one party for that matter) a libertarian president would be a great counterbalance to an out of control congress.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:58 am

When you say "act like a good CEO", that brings with it a lot of extra baggage that I really don't want a political leader encumbered with. "Eliminate wasteful spending" is an end unto itself that I'm quite fine with.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:04 am

tifosi77 wrote:When you say "act like a good CEO", that brings with it a lot of extra baggage that I really don't want a political leader encumbered with. "Eliminate wasteful spending" is an end unto itself that I'm quite fine with.


Context is everything.

ExPatriatePen wrote:A good CEO keeps his company focused on the things the company does right and cuts the fat out of his/her organization. I don't see why a good POTUS shouldn't operate the same way.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:11 am

Boehner actually says something intelligent:

Saying that Barrack Obama should -
“personally make the case to the American people and Congress for how potential military action will secure American national security interests, preserve American credibility, deter the future use of chemical weapons, and, critically, be a part of our broader policy and strategy.”
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Pitt87 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:55 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:A good CEO keeps his company focused on the things the company does right and cuts the fat out of his/her organization. I don't see why a good POTUS shouldn't operate the same way.

One of my favorite RR quotes went something like this: "Governement isn't the solution, Government is the problem"

InB4 the "Ronald Reagan was Big Government" arguments.


Any CEO of any company has one prime directive; maximize shareholder value. CEO's have lots of roles though, depending on the company; some CEO's drive sales, some manage customers, some manage to the bottom line. I would argue that's exactly what Pres. Obama is doing; Government is in hyper growth mode, and unfortunately taxpayers are like customers locked into garbage contracts with very little recourse. Pres. Obama is trying to trade citizenship for taxes, increase revenues from current customers by raising rates, and trying to establish a voter base that believes that they have to vote for democrats for threat of their livelihood or other personal threat.

I do agree that there is a serious management issue in Obama's White House. I'm waiting for suspicion to arise that the tail is wagging the dog.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:05 pm

Pitt87 wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:A good CEO keeps his company focused on the things the company does right and cuts the fat out of his/her organization. I don't see why a good POTUS shouldn't operate the same way.

One of my favorite RR quotes went something like this: "Governement isn't the solution, Government is the problem"

InB4 the "Ronald Reagan was Big Government" arguments.


Any CEO of any company has one prime directive; maximize shareholder value.


What about privately held companies?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Geezer on Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:09 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
Kaizer wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:I dont think that anyone would argue government is bad....

I think you might want to re-read some of the discussions that have gone on in here over the past couple years. :wink:


Who has argued that you dont need a federal govt?


yeah you missed quite a bit.

I hope your not not eluding to me. Government has a role in security, in protecting the environment, and in other limited aspects. But I don't think there's much doubt that governments everywhere are prone to excess and overstepping their bounds.

well said.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:28 pm

So I pop on to CNN.com to see the latest headlines and right there under the top four World headlines is a story that reads: "Zurich launches 'sex drive-ins'".
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:51 pm

Shyster wrote:I cannot find any cases offhand dealing with a prohibition on a doctors speech (rather than compelled speech), but the caselaw appears to support an application of the First Amendment to what doctors can be required to say (or not say). I think NJ is only the second state after California(?) to pass a law of this type, so we're probably just starting the litigation that could define the scope of the First Amendment here. The case on California's law is currently before the Ninth Circuit, and two different California district courts came to opposite conclusions on the constitutionality of the law.

California Gay Conversion Therapy Ban Upheld By Federal Court
A federal appeals court on Thursday upheld the nation's first-of-its-kind law in California prohibiting health practitioners from offering psychotherapy aimed at making gay youth straight.

The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco ruled that the state's ban on so-called conversion therapy for minors doesn't violate the free speech rights of licensed counselors and patients seeking treatment.

The activities of pastors and lay counselors who are unlicensed but provide such therapy through church programs would not be covered under the law.

*****
However, in a 3-0 ruling, the court panel held that California has the power to prohibit licensed mental health providers from administering therapies deemed harmful, and the fact that speech may be used to carry out those therapies does not turn such bans into prohibitions of speech.

Let the good times roll.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GSdrums87 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:58 pm

Good.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby redwill on Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:11 pm

Troubling.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Shyster on Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:11 pm


I was just coming here to post about that decision. I think the outcome is a little disappointing, but it's not unexpected. I would still bet that this issue will be decided by the Supreme Court at some point, although I would also bet that the Court does not take an appeal of this decision. It's too soon.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:24 pm

International Norm
Spoiler:
Image
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