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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Geezer on Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:12 pm

doublem wrote:
DropEmJayBird wrote:Rather than give the guy a million bucks and have him go on his way, why don't we show real compaission and have doublem take the guy into his house for the rest of his life. doublem can take care of him and his bills, and the guatamalan can receive real compassion and live out the rest of his days in a nice comfy home.


Right, like someone getting Medicare is really comparable to having them in someone's home. Do you realize the amount of tax dollars you are paying is like .001% for this guy. This shouldn't be an illegal immigrant issue, it is a human rights issue.

No,it's not a human right to illegally enter a country and then be taken care of regardless if you were hit by a drunk driver, a sober diver, a meteor or by lightning. There are citizens whose families were here for generaations who are as bad or worse off than this guy and are not being treated for free or at all. There are many people who are brought here for humanitarian reasons because this may be one of the few places that can offer them treatment for rare conditions, etc.
That's not the case with this guy. Guatamala has any obligation to this guy. Again , money being spent on illegals is part of the problem, lack of addressing tort reform is another part. When our congress gets serious on those issues maybe they'd have proven they could improve health care. But illegals can't be addressed because of latino votes and tort reform is off the table because trial lawyers own a huge chunk of the Democratic party.
Last edited by Geezer on Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Ron` on Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:12 pm

doublem wrote:http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/how-the-health-care-mess-affects-entrepreneurship/

I'd like to know exactly what product his business produces. In a service based economy I suspect it's not something that can be exported or mass marketed, unless its fries and burgers of course. There is little this country produces anymore that can't be made elsewhere or technologically superior. That's where the whole thing starts to collapse.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby doublem on Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:33 pm

Geezer wrote:
doublem wrote:
DropEmJayBird wrote:Rather than give the guy a million bucks and have him go on his way, why don't we show real compaission and have doublem take the guy into his house for the rest of his life. doublem can take care of him and his bills, and the guatamalan can receive real compassion and live out the rest of his days in a nice comfy home.


Right, like someone getting Medicare is really comparable to having them in someone's home. Do you realize the amount of tax dollars you are paying is like .001% for this guy. This shouldn't be an illegal immigrant issue, it is a human rights issue.

No,it's not a human right to illegally enter a country and then be taken care of regardless if you were hit by a drunk driver, a sober diver, a meteor or by lightning. There are citizens whose families were here for generaations who are as bad or worse off than this guy and are not being treated for free or at all. There are many people who are brought here for humanitarian reasons because this may be one of the few places that can offer them treatment for rare conditions, etc.
That's not the case with this guy. Guatamala has any obligation to this guy. Again , money being spent on illegals is part of the problem, lack of addressing tort reform is another part. When our congress gets serious on those issues maybe they'd have proven they could improve health care. But illegals can't be addressed because of latino votes and tort reform is off the table because trial lawyers own a huge chunk of the Democratic party.


It's a human right to get treatment for an illness or accident. People had/have it bad ,but this guy doesn't have to have it as bad if he can get treatment, which you oppose. This is one case I'm supporting, I'm not bringing up health care or immigration. I'm not making this a politic issue, this is a human issue to me. To me everything isn't broken down into these little right vs left, illegal vs legal areas.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby doublem on Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:35 pm

Ron` wrote:
doublem wrote:http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/how-the-health-care-mess-affects-entrepreneurship/

I'd like to know exactly what product his business produces. In a service based economy I suspect it's not something that can be exported or mass marketed, unless its fries and burgers of course. There is little this country produces anymore that can't be made elsewhere or technologically superior. That's where the whole thing starts to collapse.


The issue is that they can't afford to pay for health care, and everyone always says if we get universal health care it will drive people away from innovation and hard work, this article says getting health care would help people do that.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Geezer on Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:36 pm

Ron` wrote:
doublem wrote:http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/how-the-health-care-mess-affects-entrepreneurship/

I'd like to know exactly what product his business produces. In a service based economy I suspect it's not something that can be exported or mass marketed, unless its fries and burgers of course. There is little this country produces anymore that can't be made elsewhere or technologically superior. That's where the whole thing starts to collapse.

You must not know anyone who has a small business if you think they want the Dems health care package.Even large and medium sized companies have been getting out from under heath care costs for years. Small business owners are one of the few core groups that solidly back the Republicans. Anti-business policies are part of the cornerstone of the Democratic party.
When the government gives new entitlements to employees companies increase the number or part time workers and reduce the number of full time workers to offset the added costs. I worked with a woman who worked 80-90 hours a week but was a part-time worker. She had 3 jobs, none of which would hire her full time. All her bosses accomdated juggling her various schedule because she was a terrific worker but no one would hire her full time. That's only one of the ways the game is played.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby doublem on Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:41 pm

Geezer wrote:
Ron` wrote:
doublem wrote:http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/how-the-health-care-mess-affects-entrepreneurship/

I'd like to know exactly what product his business produces. In a service based economy I suspect it's not something that can be exported or mass marketed, unless its fries and burgers of course. There is little this country produces anymore that can't be made elsewhere or technologically superior. That's where the whole thing starts to collapse.

You must not know anyone who has a small business if you think they want the Dems health care package.Even large and medium sized companies have been getting out from under heath care costs for years. Small business owners are one of the few core groups that solidly back the Republicans. Anti-business policies are part of the cornerstone of the Democratic party.
When the government gives new entitlements to employees companies increase the number or part time workers and reduce the number of full time workers to offset the added costs. I worked with a woman who worked 80-90 hours a week but was a part-time worker. She had 3 jobs, none of which would hire her full time. All her bosses accomdated juggling her various schedule because she was a terrific worker but no one would hire her full time. That's only one of the ways the game is played.


Did you read the article? Who in the democratic party is anti-bushiness? Are you talking about when FDR was president.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Ron` on Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:48 pm

doublem wrote:
Ron` wrote:
doublem wrote:http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/how-the-health-care-mess-affects-entrepreneurship/

I'd like to know exactly what product his business produces. In a service based economy I suspect it's not something that can be exported or mass marketed, unless its fries and burgers of course. There is little this country produces anymore that can't be made elsewhere or technologically superior. That's where the whole thing starts to collapse.


The issue is that they can't afford to pay for health care, and everyone always says if we get universal health care it will drive people away from innovation and hard work, this article says getting health care would help people do that.
And so would legalizing anything currently illegal and taxing it to provide further entitlements. See gambling, how's that worked. Until this country gets back to producing something that is technologically superior or highly desired the policies implemented since the 60's will drive it's decline even further.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby doublem on Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:52 pm

I don't disagree.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby whgnailer10 on Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:54 pm

doublem wrote:
Ron` wrote:
doublem wrote:http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/how-the-health-care-mess-affects-entrepreneurship/

I'd like to know exactly what product his business produces. In a service based economy I suspect it's not something that can be exported or mass marketed, unless its fries and burgers of course. There is little this country produces anymore that can't be made elsewhere or technologically superior. That's where the whole thing starts to collapse.


The issue is that they can't afford to pay for health care, and everyone always says if we get universal health care it will drive people away from innovation and hard work, this article says getting health care would help people do that.


If they can't afford health care, how are they going to afford being taxed to cover health care?
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Ron` on Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:58 pm

Geezer wrote:
Ron` wrote:
doublem wrote:http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/how-the-health-care-mess-affects-entrepreneurship/

I'd like to know exactly what product his business produces. In a service based economy I suspect it's not something that can be exported or mass marketed, unless its fries and burgers of course. There is little this country produces anymore that can't be made elsewhere or technologically superior. That's where the whole thing starts to collapse.

You must not know anyone who has a small business if you think they want the Dems health care package.Even large and medium sized companies have been getting out from under heath care costs for years. Small business owners are one of the few core groups that solidly back the Republicans. Anti-business policies are part of the cornerstone of the Democratic party.
When the government gives new entitlements to employees companies increase the number or part time workers and reduce the number of full time workers to offset the added costs. I worked with a woman who worked 80-90 hours a week but was a part-time worker. She had 3 jobs, none of which would hire her full time. All her bosses accomdated juggling her various schedule because she was a terrific worker but no one would hire her full time. That's only one of the ways the game is played.

I am not sure what you are saying that conflicts with what I am saying. My point is the undermining of the industrial base of this country has undermined everything. That was done largely through taxes and liberal feel good policies that closed the doors on big industry. The entitlement programs started in the 70's coupled with the more recent economic decline have created an even greater burden to society.
This spirals into more taxes to support even more entitlements and worse yet, bailouts for mismanaged service based or investment only type businesses. Rome has been on fire for decades. Instead of trying to promote and create industrial or technological growth we are furthering the decline.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby MWB on Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:58 pm

Ron` wrote:Until this country gets back to producing something that is technologically superior or highly desired the policies implemented since the 60's will drive it's decline even further.


Don't Twitter and Facebook count? :wink:
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Ron` on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:00 pm

whgnailer10 wrote:If they can't afford health care, how are they going to afford being taxed to cover health care?
They won't and until someone is willing to come straight with the public and show the true numbers for unemployment, partial employment and actual tax base this folly will continue.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby doublem on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:05 pm

Liberal feel good policies? What exactly would those be? Wasn't industry declining in the U.S. because they could be produced cheaper other places?
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Ron` on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:07 pm

MWB wrote:
Ron` wrote:Until this country gets back to producing something that is technologically superior or highly desired the policies implemented since the 60's will drive it's decline even further.


Don't Twitter and Facebook count? :wink:

Good one... you forgot Ebay :)
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Geezer on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:08 pm

I'd like to know exactly what product his business produces. In a service based economy I suspect it's not something that can be exported or mass marketed, unless its fries and burgers of course. There is little this country produces anymore that can't be made elsewhere or technologically superior. That's where the whole thing starts to collapse.[/quote]
You must not know anyone who has a small business if you think they want the Dems health care package.Even large and medium sized companies have been getting out from under heath care costs for years. Small business owners are one of the few core groups that solidly back the Republicans. Anti-business policies are part of the cornerstone of the Democratic party.
When the government gives new entitlements to employees companies increase the number or part time workers and reduce the number of full time workers to offset the added costs. I worked with a woman who worked 80-90 hours a week but was a part-time worker. She had 3 jobs, none of which would hire her full time. All her bosses accomdated juggling her various schedule because she was a terrific worker but no one would hire her full time. That's only one of the ways the game is played.[/quote]
I am not sure what you are saying that conflicts with what I am saying. My point is the undermining of the industrial base of this country has undermined everything. That was done largely through taxes and liberal feel good policies that closed the doors on big industry. The entitlement programs started in the 70's coupled with the more recent economic decline have created an even greater burden to society.
This spirals into more taxes to support even more entitlements and worse yet, bailouts for mismanaged service based or investment only type businesses. Rome has been on fire for decades. Instead of trying to promote and create industrial or technological growth we are furthering the decline.
[/quote]I didn't post that correctly. I wasn't directing the rsponse to you but was referring to the other poster's article. I agree with everything you've written.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby doublem on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:14 pm

If they can't afford health care, how are they going to afford being taxed to cover health care?


Ummm, the health care costs are much more than the taxes. Did you read the dems. plan? It doesn't address the fundamental problem with the system though.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby doublem on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:18 pm

Ron` wrote:
whgnailer10 wrote:If they can't afford health care, how are they going to afford being taxed to cover health care?
They won't and until someone is willing to come straight with the public and show the true numbers for unemployment, partial employment and actual tax base this folly will continue.


Is someone trying to trick you? You can find stats right here http://www.bls.gov/
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Ron` on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:25 pm

doublem wrote:Liberal feel good policies? What exactly would those be? Wasn't industry declining in the U.S. because they could be produced cheaper other places?
Some of that was directly caused by the tax gouging of the same businesses and their employees to support those entitlements. Easy to push when times are good and people are working with benefits. Eventually the burden becomes too great though, workers want more and well the doors close. Never mind legislation that impacts the bottom line such as mandating updated EPA standards etc. Standards way above and things your international competitors would ever even have to consider dealing with.

I can tell you my company is right now out 175 million dollars for putting in systems to help meet new clean air standards under a cap and trade policy. One that appears to have essentially vanished, after the capital expenditure, under the new pending legislation. They also have capped utility rates for 10 years under an agreement to ease the transition to a free market system. This is now trying to be stopped via new state legislation. In both cases business plans were formed on the new legislation to the existing rules and long term plans made to recover from the impact and remain profitable. Now the legislators are backing out again under the same false context of protecting or aiding the consumers. Because it's a popular message today again, never mind it was the same message that got us here. How can a business survive in a world that legislates and mandates things, but reverses itself when it comes time to carry through?

I could go on and on. The bottom line is legislation such as above is what has destroyed the industrial and big business base of this country. Resulting in an overall decline to the working taxpaying base and an increasing burden for entitlements.
Last edited by Ron` on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Ron` on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:38 pm

doublem wrote:
Ron` wrote:
whgnailer10 wrote:If they can't afford health care, how are they going to afford being taxed to cover health care?
They won't and until someone is willing to come straight with the public and show the true numbers for unemployment, partial employment and actual tax base this folly will continue.


Is someone trying to trick you? You can find stats right here http://www.bls.gov/

You do realize that those that stop receiving unemployment and those that have gained part time employment are no longer counted in the unemployment figures released by the government now right? A change that was instituted last decade. Never mind that nobody tracks dual income households that are now required to meet ends meet. This was not the norm pre-80's. All the data is skewed to make it look better than it really is, no matter the party. A more realistic figure would be those on entitlements along with unemployment compared to actual tax paying base to reflect the state of this country. There is no way those numbers could support further taxation and entitlement increases.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby whgnailer10 on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:42 pm

doublem wrote:
If they can't afford health care, how are they going to afford being taxed to cover health care?


Ummm, the health care costs are much more than the taxes. Did you read the dems. plan? It doesn't address the fundamental problem with the system though.


Like Ron said... "until someone is willing to come straight with the public and show the true numbers"

to me that leaves a couple questions...

1.) What is the total spending on health care a year by Americans?
-in 2007 it was 2.4 Trillion Dollars

2.) Can we divide that number by the actual number of citizens to see what the cost per person would be that is spent on health care related cost?
2,400,000,000,000 / 303,824,640 = $7,899.29349


Just as an average that comes out to $7,899.29349 Per Person Per Year... Keep in mind how much you pay per year in health care. I'm not even close to that. Right now I'm paying (for two people) slightly over 2,000 a year. That is 8 times less than the statistical average that is spent per year.

Am I missing something here?
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Ron` on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:48 pm

Exactly, the numbers lie. Who knows what number they are using for census, who knows what number they are using for care or whom it was provided to. They won't even tell you how many people are not working.... let alone not paying Social Security or taxes. Couple that with the untold numbers collecting entitlements and it's not hard to figure out. Just look around, if it's not visably obvious to you day to day then you are leading a gifted life. Imagine the same people that did the numbers for Enron, wallstreet etc... grrrr....
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby doublem on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:53 pm

Ron` wrote:
doublem wrote:Liberal feel good policies? What exactly would those be? Wasn't industry declining in the U.S. because they could be produced cheaper other places?
Some of that was directly caused by the tax gouging of the same businesses and their employees to support those entitlements. Easy to push when times are good and people are working with benefits. Eventually the burden becomes too great though, workers want more and well the doors close. Never mind legislation that impacts the bottom line such as mandating updated EPA standards etc. Standards way above and things your international competitors don't even have to consider dealing with.

I can tell you my company is right now out 175 million dollars for putting in systems to help meet new clean air standards under a cap and trade policy. One that appears to have essentially vanished, after the capital expenditure, under the new pending legislation. They also have capped utility rates for 10 years under an agreement to ease the transition to a free market system. This is now trying to be stopped via new state legislation. In both cases business plans were formed on the new legislation to the existing rules and long term plans made to recover from the impact and remain profitable. Now the legislators are backing out again under the same false context of protecting or aiding the consumers. Because it's a popular message today again, never mind it was the same message that got us here. How can a business survive in a world that legislates and mandates things, but reverses itself when it comes time to carry through?

I could go on and on. The bottom line is legislation such as above is what has destroyed the industrial and big business base of this country. Resulting in an overall decline to the working taxpaying base and an increasing burden for entitlements.



I don't know, I just don't see how those are liberal feel good policies. The Republicans have been in control for a large amount of time over the last three decades or so. Don't factors like globalization, free trade, and the free market also play big factors in this.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby Ron` on Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:57 pm

doublem wrote:I don't know, I just don't see how those are liberal feel good policies. The Republicans have been in control for a large amount of time over the last three decades or so. Don't factors like globalization, free trade, and the free market also play big factors in this.
I'm done responding to you. Not once did I blame this on any party, it belongs to any and all parties involved. The continual misrepresentation of facts, failure to live up to prior legislative actions etc shows that the system is broken. Health care is just a symptom.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby doublem on Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:05 pm

Ron` wrote:
doublem wrote:I don't know, I just don't see how those are liberal feel good policies. The Republicans have been in control for a large amount of time over the last three decades or so. Don't factors like globalization, free trade, and the free market also play big factors in this.
I'm done responding to you. Not once did I blame this on any party, it belongs to any and all parties involved. The continual misrepresentation of facts, failure to live up to prior legislative actions etc shows that the system is broken. Health care is just a symptom.


Alright, calm down. I was asking a question. Blaming both parties is an easy out, you start talking about liberals and there policies. I'm just asking you what liberals you are talking about? Numbers don't lie, they might tell the entire truth, but they don't lie. You are just looking for numbers that reflect your opinion ,and since they don't exist you think the big bad g is hiding them from you.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009

Postby pittsoccer33 on Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:18 pm

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/a ... 0&print=on

video of john conyers saying what a waste of time he considers reading and understanding the bill to be. its not about health care to him, its about attacking acheivement in the name of equality.
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