LGP Political Discussion Thread

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby redwill on Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:40 pm

tifosi77 wrote:You're not understanding the meaning of the term 'force multiplier'. It's simply a way of expressing that missions that once required many assets can now be carried out by a smaller force to the same level of effectiveness. Air power, in and of itself, is not a force multiplier, nor are force multipliers a guarantees of victorious outcomes on the battlefield.


Ahh. I guess I did not understand that. So you're saying that we can do more damage with fewer air assets now than we could in WWII? I can't disagree with that. But what's your point? That we're a more potent military force than we were seventy years ago? Is this from the esteemed military journal Duh?

Forgive me if I missed the context of the discussion. If I did, I'll just bow out of the conversation.

tifosi77 wrote:And yes, I'm saying that a military victory in Vietnam was entirely possible (likely, even) but for the considerations of not angering the Soviets and Chinese. (Same as in Korea) And said victory would have achieved long before anyone got "nuked". But because of the political constraints of not wanting to start World War III over a third-rate rice paddy, the reality that the U.S. faced in Vietnam made any real chance of a military victory next to impossible.


You're saying said victory could have been achieved without starting WWIII? On what do you base that opinion?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:46 pm

tifosi77 wrote:From the wife's FB wall today.... haven't fact-checked this, but for some reason I don't have a hard time believing any of it.

Re Hostess:

Management was trying to cut baker's pay by 8% and benefits by 32%..... while the CEO gave himself a 300% raise. Nine Hostess execs got bonuses of between 60% and 100% while filing the company's second bankruptcy, which called for the cessation of payments into the employee pension fund - to which the company is $160 million in arrears.

I understand the drain that pensions can place on an organization, by can we not agree that these sort of things just look unseemly?


This is what gets me, and I am not talking directly about this post. Its the lack of understanding of large dollars among the masses and how people get all fired up when they read articles and then get their facebook friends all fired, tweet about it and soon its the truth.

These look bad and yes, execs getting raises during a bankruptcy simply looks off. But if you read the article and see the numbers they are in debt and the amount of cash given to execs - if you turned around and gave it to employees it would be like $60 a person total and would knock nothing off of their debt.

I worked (in a sense) for a company that went bankrupt. They hired this big time consultant/CEO/fixer to come and do what he could. In the end he made some large dollars and the company got back on decent enough footing. But at the end of the day even if it still went under, he saved millions of dollars and jobs (paying millions of dollars total) for as long as he could. He deserved every penny he got and the employees whose job he saved, even if it was for only a year or two should have been kissing his feet. Yet every last one of them complained about the rich bald white guy driving a lexus.

I just get tired of people complaining about things the know nothing about. Maybe these execs kept Hostess open for two additional years, did a massive reorganization and saved thousand of jobs, hundreds of millions of dollars and kept people getting paid for those two years. Maybe these employees should be thanking them.

They money they made in bonuses total pales in comparison even remotely to one two week pay period of hostess if you add in healthcare, pensions and life insurances. Its not even close. Yes, they are the big bad meanie rich guys, no this isnt as bad as it sounds most likely.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Godric on Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:18 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:
redwill wrote:Oh, and it's just meh, but I do not believe A-10s have afterburners.

I could be wrong.

Dude, the GAU-8 of an A-10 is impressive as hell.

The reason I mentioned that is that the A-10 is an interesting beast, you normally don't hear it until it's left the scene.



Gau8 is incredible .... A10 doesnt have after burners lawl

My brothers unit lost 46 marines .... I mention this because I guess when you lose that many friends you stop caring about collateral damage

RIP fallen marines of 3/25 Lima

my brother said he only called in a couple Jdams in the 9 months he was there .... It was mostly Cobra and Hueys equipped with hydra rockets strafing


They called in mortars on everything ....
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:33 am

:pop:
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Dickie Dunn on Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:22 am

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:From the wife's FB wall today.... haven't fact-checked this, but for some reason I don't have a hard time believing any of it.

Re Hostess:

Management was trying to cut baker's pay by 8% and benefits by 32%..... while the CEO gave himself a 300% raise. Nine Hostess execs got bonuses of between 60% and 100% while filing the company's second bankruptcy, which called for the cessation of payments into the employee pension fund - to which the company is $160 million in arrears.

I understand the drain that pensions can place on an organization, by can we not agree that these sort of things just look unseemly?


This is what gets me, and I am not talking directly about this post. Its the lack of understanding of large dollars among the masses and how people get all fired up when they read articles and then get their facebook friends all fired, tweet about it and soon its the truth.

These look bad and yes, execs getting raises during a bankruptcy simply looks off. But if you read the article and see the numbers they are in debt and the amount of cash given to execs - if you turned around and gave it to employees it would be like $60 a person total and would knock nothing off of their debt.

I worked (in a sense) for a company that went bankrupt. They hired this big time consultant/CEO/fixer to come and do what he could. In the end he made some large dollars and the company got back on decent enough footing. But at the end of the day even if it still went under, he saved millions of dollars and jobs (paying millions of dollars total) for as long as he could. He deserved every penny he got and the employees whose job he saved, even if it was for only a year or two should have been kissing his feet. Yet every last one of them complained about the rich bald white guy driving a lexus.

I just get tired of people complaining about things the know nothing about. Maybe these execs kept Hostess open for two additional years, did a massive reorganization and saved thousand of jobs, hundreds of millions of dollars and kept people getting paid for those two years. Maybe these employees should be thanking them.

They money they made in bonuses total pales in comparison even remotely to one two week pay period of hostess if you add in healthcare, pensions and life insurances. Its not even close. Yes, they are the big bad meanie rich guys, no this isnt as bad as it sounds most likely.


I don't know the exact figures to be able to "fact check" the original statement, but I remember reading that the top execs at Hostess agreed to be paid $1 this year. So yea, the executives actually getting paid next year would cause a large percentage increase on the surface, giving the masses reason to complain.

And I'm sure we can all agree it would be a cold day in hell before any union would agree to the type of paycut the "greedy" execs took this year in an effort to keep the company afloat.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:20 am

this is someone off topic but....

is anyone else offended when people complain about immigrants ruining america? Particularly when the complainer happens to come from an eastern european family that immigrated to the mon valley to work in the steel mills. its bothersome when someone is so small minded that they dont realize that they are being biased against unskilled immigrants even though their parents or grandparents were unskilled immigrants.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:29 am

KennyTheKangaroo wrote:this is someone off topic but....

is anyone else offended when people complain about immigrants ruining america? Particularly when the complainer happens to come from an eastern european family that immigrated to the mon valley to work in the steel mills. its bothersome when someone is so small minded that they dont realize that they are being biased against unskilled immigrants even though their parents or grandparents were unskilled immigrants.


Happens everywhere, unfortunately. People are dumb.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:31 am

KennyTheKangaroo wrote:this is someone off topic but....

is anyone else offended when people complain about immigrants ruining america? Particularly when the complainer happens to come from an eastern european family that immigrated to the mon valley to work in the steel mills. its bothersome when someone is so small minded that they dont realize that they are being biased against unskilled immigrants even though their parents or grandparents were unskilled immigrants.


We have been through this on here before but are people mad about immigration or illegal immigration?

My grandparents came over on the boat and that has nothing to do with someone sneaking into our country and being a drain on our tax resources..... And I know it goes deeper than that when it cormier to work provided and their positive influence on our economics but there is literally zero hypocrisy when comparing how this country was founded and how certain aspects are viewed today.

This country was also founded on slavery and genocide and I am pretty sure we evolved from that. Illegal immigration has been an issue and became a larger one when where attacked and needed to sure up our borders let alone a variety of other issues.

I understand your points in general but quite honestly find them just weak of an arguement a those who hate immigration for no reason.
Last edited by BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:49 am

redwill wrote:You're saying said victory could have been achieved without starting WWIII? On what do you base that opinion?

Yes, a military victory could have been achieved fairly easily, imo. That's not to say that the desired political outcome would have naturally followed. And since war is politics by other means, winning on the battlefield while not winning the 'hearts and minds' to bring about the sought political solution is pretty useless. (See: Afghanistan) But then, the political purpose of fighting in Vietnam was pretty useless from the get go, so it's a circular argument.

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:My grandparents came over on the boat and that has nothing to do with someone sneaking into our country and being a drain on our tax resources.....

This is a bit of a canard; it sounds good in a vacuum, but it isn't a binary argument.

Yes it is true that illegal immigrants do not pay income taxes, but they do pay other taxes (sales, most notably). And their contribution to the labor market depresses wages for low-skilled workers across the spectrum. However, that translates to lower prices for consumer goods and services (restaurant meals, hotel rooms, construction, etc) for everyone else.

In tougher economic times (like now) the benefits are harder to recover than in good times. However, the general trend is that illegal immigration provides a net benefit to the economy of around 1%.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby BigMcK on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:11 pm

4 SoCal Men Arrested In Alleged Terror Plot

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/11/19/4-socal-men-arrested-in-alleged-terror-plot/

Interesting that they were plotting to take the fight to Afghanistan instead of training to do damage here.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Hockeynut! on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:21 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:We have been through this on here before but are people mad about immigration or illegal immigration?


Around here (Somerset County), the answer is, "Both". I hear so many people complain about "Indians" who own all the hotels and the "Arabs" working at the mini marts.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:25 pm

I thoroughly enjoy local taqueria, Indian grocery, Lebanese grocery and Chinese super-store grocery.

Long live immigration. 8-)
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:30 pm

Now here's an important issue....

Legally nude? San Francisco considers ban
http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/49898954/
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:32 pm

columbia wrote:Now here's an important issue....

Legally nude? San Francisco considers ban
http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/49898954/


If you've ever read articles/seen photos about what goes on in full public view during some of their....(ahem) festivals, basic nudity is nothing.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:33 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
redwill wrote:You're saying said victory could have been achieved without starting WWIII? On what do you base that opinion?

Yes, a military victory could have been achieved fairly easily, imo. That's not to say that the desired political outcome would have naturally followed. And since war is politics by other means, winning on the battlefield while not winning the 'hearts and minds' to bring about the sought political solution is pretty useless. (See: Afghanistan) But then, the political purpose of fighting in Vietnam was pretty useless from the get go, so it's a circular argument.

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:My grandparents came over on the boat and that has nothing to do with someone sneaking into our country and being a drain on our tax resources.....

This is a bit of a canard; it sounds good in a vacuum, but it isn't a binary argument.

Yes it is true that illegal immigrants do not pay income taxes, but they do pay other taxes (sales, most notably). And their contribution to the labor market depresses wages for low-skilled workers across the spectrum. However, that translates to lower prices for consumer goods and services (restaurant meals, hotel rooms, construction, etc) for everyone else.

In tougher economic times (like now) the benefits are harder to recover than in good times. However, the general trend is that illegal immigration provides a net benefit to the economy of around 1%.


I agree to a point and even stated that there is economic value. my point was just that people who complain about those complaining are no better.

It's just a tired argument as if complaining about something illegal that to a point drains some resources and is still well, illegal, and can have other negative effects such as national security makes you a hypocrite. It simply does not.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:34 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:
columbia wrote:Now here's an important issue....

Legally nude? San Francisco considers ban
http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/49898954/


If you've ever read articles/seen photos about what goes on in full public view during some of their....(ahem) festivals, basic nudity is nothing.


I recommend watching the 700 Club after the annual gay pride parade.
Pat is apoplectic. :lol:
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:37 pm

Hamas: Israel And Gaza Agree On Ceasefire
http://news.sky.com/story/1013745/hamas ... -ceasefire
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:43 pm

Hockeynut! wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:We have been through this on here before but are people mad about immigration or illegal immigration?


Around here (Somerset County), the answer is, "Both". I hear so many people complain about "Indians" who own all the hotels and the "Arabs" working at the mini marts.


Well that is is kinda more racism! Ha just saying there are many reasons to be upset or not upset about immigration, it's not a blacks and white issue.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:57 pm

If disenchanted Republicans are looking for the new breed to step up and embrace modernity...well, apparently, it's not going to happen.

Rubio on Earth's age: "I'm not a scientist, man"
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-34222_162-5 ... ntist-man/
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby BigMcK on Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:06 pm

Hockeynut! wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:We have been through this on here before but are people mad about immigration or illegal immigration?


Around here (Somerset County), the answer is, "Both". I hear so many people complain about "Indians" who own all the hotels and the "Arabs" working at the mini marts.


It only becomes an issue when the Indians start complaining about the Arabs and vice versa.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:18 pm

columbia wrote:If disenchanted Republicans are looking for the new breed to step up and embrace modernity...well, apparently, it's not going to happen.

Rubio on Earth's age: "I'm not a scientist, man"
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-34222_162-5 ... ntist-man/


I have no problem with what he said. I have no idea how old the earth is, and couldn't give the age based on what science says (which I believe) and what the Bible says. I also agree with him that parent's have the right to teach their children whatever they want. My feeling is that the schools should teach based off science and history and not religion though.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:24 pm

BigMcK wrote:
Hockeynut! wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:We have been through this on here before but are people mad about immigration or illegal immigration?


Around here (Somerset County), the answer is, "Both". I hear so many people complain about "Indians" who own all the hotels and the "Arabs" working at the mini marts.


It only becomes an issue when the Indians start complaining about the Arabs and vice versa.


H1B's are good things. It allows folks with skills that are in demand to enter the country and gives competitiveness to US industry.

Allowing ILLEGAL immigrants into this country to take jobs that otherwise would be filled by American citizens, is inane. The same people that support ILLEGALS taking US jobs scream and cry when those jobs are 'off shored'.

I've seen the studies Tif cites, and they don't factor in the cost of social programs for those American citizens that are displaced.

Besides which the studies I've seen are all funded by liberal "Think tanks".

It's disingenous to state that ILLEGAL immigration is a good thing. Why even have "Green cards" or an INS then?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:30 pm

I'd like to see jail time for anyone (and a massive fine for any business) that hires an illegal immigrant.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby GaryRissling on Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:30 pm

Image

Edit: To be fair, some of them are our citizens.
Last edited by GaryRissling on Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:37 pm

columbia wrote:I'd like to see jail time for anyone (and a massive fine for any business) that hires an illegal immigrant.


I changed my landscaper a few years back because he was using ILLEGALS. My new landscaper (read: grass cutter), uses only locals (To be fair, most are relatives or former HS friends and drinking buddies). He costs a couple of bucks more a week, but it's worth it.
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